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[FH] Re: cat w/ CHF

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  • brinkett
    ... dosages ... reason ... I ... ask.. ... I don t think Linda was criticizing you in particular, she was just pointing out that information like 1/2 tab is
    Message 1 of 12 , Jul 5, 2004
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      > I was giving a general idea of how Lillie's own condition is being
      > treated (TYPES of meds)...Only a Cardiologist can determine
      dosages
      > best for your pet...but thought Lillie's types could serve as a
      > guidline for questions to ask the Cardiologist. If there is a
      reason
      > that you need to know the specific dosages for my particular cat,
      I
      > would gladly provide that if it somehow would help you...Just
      ask..
      > (nicely, of course) :)

      I don't think Linda was criticizing you in particular, she was just
      pointing out that information like "1/2 tab" is meaningless (and
      potentially misleading) because pills come in different dosages. So
      it's best that people provide the dosages in numbers or not at all.

      I have also felt frustrated in the past when seeing things like "1/2
      tab lasix" because I like to be able to compare doses to what Morag
      is taking and can't based on that type of information.

      Sarah.
    • turkishangoraathumanesociety
      Well, Sarah...unfortunately I received an email from a poster wanting exact dosage because THEY are on heart meds (atenolol), and thought that they d just go
      Message 2 of 12 , Jul 5, 2004
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        Well, Sarah...unfortunately I received an email from a poster
        wanting exact dosage because THEY are on heart meds (atenolol), and
        thought that they'd just go ahead and dose it out to their cat. I
        don't know if this was to save on Cardiologist or what, but you step
        into VERY dangerous territory here. I have NO IDEA what type of
        heart failure this woman's cat is dealing with, and what is right for
        my cat, may KILL hers....And no, unfortunately I am not making this
        up (I WISH I was). I BEG the poster who is considering this to
        realize that meds are specific to what is going on with your
        particular cat....and there isn't just one general "heart failure"
        med. Very VERY dangerous. That's why I like to discuss types only,
        and they can take it up with the specialist. If anyone cares to
        elaborate on the beta blocker/Channel blocker/diff meds for different
        heart conditions thing, please do, for this person, because I am at a
        loss for words right now.



        --- In feline-heart@yahoogroups.com, "brinkett" <scrubbrush@r...>
        wrote:
        > I don't think Linda was criticizing you in particular, she was just
        > pointing out that information like "1/2 tab" is meaningless (and
        > potentially misleading) because pills come in different dosages.
        So
        > it's best that people provide the dosages in numbers or not at
        all.
        >
        > I have also felt frustrated in the past when seeing things
        like "1/2
        > tab lasix" because I like to be able to compare doses to what Morag
        > is taking and can't based on that type of information.
        >
        > Sarah.
        --------------------------------------------------------------

        > > I was giving a general idea of how Lillie's own condition is
        being
        > > treated (TYPES of meds)...Only a Cardiologist can determine
        > dosages
        > > best for your pet...but thought Lillie's types could serve as a
        > > guidline for questions to ask the Cardiologist. If there is a
        > reason
        > > that you need to know the specific dosages for my particular cat,
        > I
        > > would gladly provide that if it somehow would help you...Just
        > ask..
        > > (nicely, of course) :)
        >
      • Linda Fischbach
        Maybe the best thing is to just list what meds the kitty is taking (like atenolol, lasix and enalapril) without mentioning the fraction of the pill given or
        Message 3 of 12 , Jul 5, 2004
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          Maybe the best thing is to just list what meds the kitty is taking (like
          atenolol, lasix and enalapril) without mentioning the fraction of the pill
          given or how often.

          Linda


          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "turkishangoraathumanesociety"
          <turkishangoraathumanesociety@...>
          To: <feline-heart@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Monday, July 05, 2004 8:00 PM
          Subject: [FH] Re: cat w/ CHF


          > Well, Sarah...unfortunately I received an email from a poster
          > wanting exact dosage because THEY are on heart meds (atenolol), and
          > thought that they'd just go ahead and dose it out to their cat. I
          > don't know if this was to save on Cardiologist or what, but you step
          > into VERY dangerous territory here. I have NO IDEA what type of
          > heart failure this woman's cat is dealing with, and what is right for
          > my cat, may KILL hers....And no, unfortunately I am not making this
          > up (I WISH I was). I BEG the poster who is considering this to
          > realize that meds are specific to what is going on with your
          > particular cat....and there isn't just one general "heart failure"
          > med. Very VERY dangerous. That's why I like to discuss types only,
          > and they can take it up with the specialist. If anyone cares to
          > elaborate on the beta blocker/Channel blocker/diff meds for different
          > heart conditions thing, please do, for this person, because I am at a
          > loss for words right now.
        • William Draper
          no doubt! if anyone in this group has any questions at all, please feel free to ask. i know that a FAQ full of medical information can be daunting at times.
          Message 4 of 12 , Jul 5, 2004
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            no doubt! if anyone in this group has any questions at all, please feel free to ask. i know that a FAQ full of medical information can be daunting at times. if you don't know where to start, please let me or someone else walk you though it slowly. DO NOT medicate you pet on your own. do not use dosing information from other animals as a guideline to how your vet is treating your animal. while there are standard doses for certain drugs, when combined they sometimes need to be "tweaked" a bit in order to function optimally. this is why we go to school (among other things). treatment regimens need to be determined on a case-by-case basis. if you give atenolol to a cat in CHF, you will definitely make it worse. if you give digitalis to a cat in asymptomatic HCF, you will likely progress the disease. animal disease pathophysiology progresses the same way as human. cats don't just have "heart disease". as a group we are here to help. if you want to contact me, and not notify the group, please feel free to do so. although i am not a doctor yet, i will still maintain the privacy of my "patients".

            bill
            dvm in 2005
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: turkishangoraathumanesociety
            To: feline-heart@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Monday, July 05, 2004 9:00 PM
            Subject: [FH] Re: cat w/ CHF


            Well, Sarah...unfortunately I received an email from a poster
            wanting exact dosage because THEY are on heart meds (atenolol), and
            thought that they'd just go ahead and dose it out to their cat. I
            don't know if this was to save on Cardiologist or what, but you step
            into VERY dangerous territory here. I have NO IDEA what type of
            heart failure this woman's cat is dealing with, and what is right for
            my cat, may KILL hers....And no, unfortunately I am not making this
            up (I WISH I was). I BEG the poster who is considering this to
            realize that meds are specific to what is going on with your
            particular cat....and there isn't just one general "heart failure"
            med. Very VERY dangerous. That's why I like to discuss types only,
            and they can take it up with the specialist. If anyone cares to
            elaborate on the beta blocker/Channel blocker/diff meds for different
            heart conditions thing, please do, for this person, because I am at a
            loss for words right now.



            --- In feline-heart@yahoogroups.com, "brinkett" <scrubbrush@r...>
            wrote:
            > I don't think Linda was criticizing you in particular, she was just
            > pointing out that information like "1/2 tab" is meaningless (and
            > potentially misleading) because pills come in different dosages.
            So
            > it's best that people provide the dosages in numbers or not at
            all.
            >
            > I have also felt frustrated in the past when seeing things
            like "1/2
            > tab lasix" because I like to be able to compare doses to what Morag
            > is taking and can't based on that type of information.
            >
            > Sarah.
            --------------------------------------------------------------

            > > I was giving a general idea of how Lillie's own condition is
            being
            > > treated (TYPES of meds)...Only a Cardiologist can determine
            > dosages
            > > best for your pet...but thought Lillie's types could serve as a
            > > guidline for questions to ask the Cardiologist. If there is a
            > reason
            > > that you need to know the specific dosages for my particular cat,
            > I
            > > would gladly provide that if it somehow would help you...Just
            > ask..
            > > (nicely, of course) :)
            >




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            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • brinkett
            ... different ... at a ... The person should read the FAQ that is in the links section. And the person should *not* give medication to their cat without
            Message 5 of 12 , Jul 5, 2004
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              > If anyone cares to
              > elaborate on the beta blocker/Channel blocker/diff meds for
              different
              > heart conditions thing, please do, for this person, because I am
              at a
              > loss for words right now.

              The person should read the FAQ that is in the links section. And
              the person should *not* give medication to their cat without
              consulting a vet or cardiologist first. Whoever you are, you may
              KILL YOUR CAT. So see a vet or cardiologist, please.

              But I think the original point was that putting fractions of tablets
              doesn't convey any information, and in fact may be very misleading
              because different people may have the same medication in different
              pill sizes. Either the exact dosage should be listed or no dosage
              at all.

              I also think it'll be a shame if we can't share dosages - after all,
              this is a group where we share information so we can best treat our
              cats. We can't stop people from being stupid - we can just hope
              people exercise common sense. So I hope people continue to share
              what dosages they are using, but that's just my opinion.

              Sarah.
            • turkishangoraathumanesociety
              I believe that is why we also have the Our Furbabies in the database...for that very detailed info that you are seeking. If Linda or anyone wants far more
              Message 6 of 12 , Jul 5, 2004
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                I believe that is why we also have the "Our Furbabies" in the
                database...for that very detailed info that you are seeking. If
                Linda or anyone wants far more details in every post it is mentioned,
                they are free to do so. I would never mandate my opinions on anyone,
                and I would expect that anyone would feel the same. I defer to the
                database for any detailed meds, and I am also very open to being
                asked. I am not open, however, to Linda's original scolding
                schoolmarm post.
                1) database
                2) or ask nicely
                We are all adults here.

                --- In feline-heart@yahoogroups.com, "brinkett" <scrubbrush@r...>
                wrote:
                > > If anyone cares to
                > > elaborate on the beta blocker/Channel blocker/diff meds for
                > different
                > > heart conditions thing, please do, for this person, because I am
                > at a
                > > loss for words right now.
                >
                > The person should read the FAQ that is in the links section. And
                > the person should *not* give medication to their cat without
                > consulting a vet or cardiologist first. Whoever you are, you may
                > KILL YOUR CAT. So see a vet or cardiologist, please.
                >
                > But I think the original point was that putting fractions of
                tablets
                > doesn't convey any information, and in fact may be very misleading
                > because different people may have the same medication in different
                > pill sizes. Either the exact dosage should be listed or no dosage
                > at all.
                >
                > I also think it'll be a shame if we can't share dosages - after
                all,
                > this is a group where we share information so we can best treat our
                > cats. We can't stop people from being stupid - we can just hope
                > people exercise common sense. So I hope people continue to share
                > what dosages they are using, but that's just my opinion.
                >
                > Sarah.
              • mainecoonsusa@aol.com
                In a message dated 7/5/2004 9:00:46 PM Eastern Standard Time, scrubbrush@rogers.com writes: I also think it ll be a shame if we can t share dosages - after
                Message 7 of 12 , Jul 5, 2004
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                  In a message dated 7/5/2004 9:00:46 PM Eastern Standard Time,
                  scrubbrush@... writes:
                  I also think it'll be a shame if we can't share dosages - after all,
                  this is a group where we share information so we can best treat our
                  cats. We can't stop people from being stupid - we can just hope
                  people exercise common sense. So I hope people continue to share
                  what dosages they are using, but that's just my opinion.
                  I agree. And I will continue to share what I am giving to my cat.

                  Speaking of my cat, I wanted to let everyone know he did fine this weekend
                  while I was away. He took his medication for the the cat sitter and seems to be
                  doing well.

                  I've started him today on the extra dosage of Enalapril. He goes to my vets
                  on Saturday for a chem profile.

                  JoAnn

                  JoAnn & Connor

                  1/2 30 mg Diltiazem 2x a day
                  1/2 2.5 mg Enalalpril 2x a daily
                  12.5 mg Lasix 2x a day
                  low dose enteric coated Aspirin 2x a week for HCM

                  1 puff AM, 1 puff PM 110 Flovent for Asthma


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • brinkett
                  ... mentioned, ... anyone, ... the ... I didn t find her response scolding or schoolmarmish. But I know how easily people get upset when they *think* they re
                  Message 8 of 12 , Jul 5, 2004
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                    > I believe that is why we also have the "Our Furbabies" in the
                    > database...for that very detailed info that you are seeking. If
                    > Linda or anyone wants far more details in every post it is
                    mentioned,
                    > they are free to do so. I would never mandate my opinions on
                    anyone,
                    > and I would expect that anyone would feel the same. I defer to
                    the
                    > database for any detailed meds, and I am also very open to being
                    > asked. I am not open, however, to Linda's original scolding
                    > schoolmarm post.
                    > 1) database
                    > 2) or ask nicely
                    > We are all adults here.

                    I didn't find her response scolding or schoolmarmish. But I know
                    how easily people get upset when they *think* they're being scolded
                    publicly. Remember that (a) it's very easy to take things that are
                    written the wrong way, and (b) there are real, living human beings
                    at the other end of all of these posts, so before taking offense,
                    take a deep breath and wait at least an hour before responding.
                    Just about all the time, you'll find that after calming down and re-
                    reading the post that upset you, it won't seem so bad.

                    This is not directed to you in particular, but to everyone,
                    including me, because I've been scolded here publicly too at times,
                    or felt like I have been. Perhaps you feel scolded because her
                    comment came after one of your posts, but if you reread her post,
                    you'll see that the suggestion was made to the entire group, not to
                    you specifically.

                    As far as the database, the vast majority of members have not
                    entered anything in the database and the entries can easily go out
                    of date. I know Morag's is because her medications have been
                    adjusted several times.

                    We've always posted dosages here. Linda's point wasn't that dosages
                    shouldn't be posted, but that if they are going to be posted, do it
                    in a way that conveys useful information. As you said, we're all
                    adults, and so we should know to consult a vet before making any
                    changes to our cat's treatment plan.

                    Sarah.
                  • Susan
                    ... I also hope the practice of including the particulars such as age, breed, diagnosis and treatment regimen in the form of a sig in the bottom of all emails
                    Message 9 of 12 , Jul 6, 2004
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                      --- brinkett <scrubbrush@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > I also think it'll be a shame if we can't share
                      > dosages - after all,
                      > this is a group where we share information so we can
                      > best treat our
                      > cats. So I hope people
                      > continue to share
                      > what dosages they are using, but that's just my
                      > opinion.


                      I also hope the practice of including the particulars
                      such as age, breed, diagnosis and treatment regimen in
                      the form of a sig in the bottom of all emails that are
                      asking questions is adopted by most. It really helps
                      when trying to answer questions. I think of it as the
                      equivalent of chart notes. I personally have a very
                      hard time remmebering and though you may have spelled
                      out the whole scenario just a few days ago I have
                      already forgotten :(

                      See my sig below for an example (Rudy weighs 8.2 lbs now)

                      =====
                      Rudy: Male DSH brown tabby, feral mom, diagnosed 09-2002 at 19 months of age with idiopathic HCM: grade 2 murmur, hyperkinetic heart, borderline normal thickening, considered asymptomatic, 12.5 mg Atenolol 1x day, 1/2 baby aspirin 2x week administered via pilling




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