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[FH] Re: cat w/ CHF

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  • turkishangoraathumanesociety
    ...Also, if it helps you, there is a database with more detailed meds for the board cats...Just click database to the left :) ... reason ...
    Message 1 of 12 , Jul 5, 2004
      ...Also, if it helps you, there is a database with more detailed meds
      for the board cats...Just click "database" to the left :)
      ------------------------------------------------------


      --- In feline-heart@yahoogroups.com, "turkishangoraathumanesociety"
      <turkishangoraathumanesociety@y...> wrote:
      > I was giving a general idea of how Lillie's own condition is being
      > treated (TYPES of meds)...Only a Cardiologist can determine dosages
      > best for your pet...but thought Lillie's types could serve as a
      > guidline for questions to ask the Cardiologist. If there is a
      reason
      > that you need to know the specific dosages for my particular cat, I
      > would gladly provide that if it somehow would help you...Just ask..
      > (nicely, of course) :)
      >
      >
      > --- In feline-heart@yahoogroups.com, "Linda Fischbach"
      <fischbl@e...>
      > wrote:
      > > Please, everyone, put the size of the medication. Atenolol,
      > Lasix and
      > > Enalapril all come in various sized tablets.
      > >
      > > Linda
      > >
      > >
      > > ----- Original Message -----
      > > From: "turkishangoraathumanesociety"
      > > <turkishangoraathumanesociety@y...>
      > > To: <feline-heart@yahoogroups.com>
      > > Sent: Monday, July 05, 2004 2:12 PM
      > > Subject: [FH] Re: cat w/ CHF
      > >
      > >
      > > > Atenolol 1/4 tab in am & again in pm every day (8 am and 8 pm)
      > > > Lasix 1/2 tab in am every OTHER day
      > > > Enalapril 1/2 tab in pm every evening
      > > > "Baby" Aspirin (81mg) every THIRD day
    • brinkett
      ... dosages ... reason ... I ... ask.. ... I don t think Linda was criticizing you in particular, she was just pointing out that information like 1/2 tab is
      Message 2 of 12 , Jul 5, 2004
        > I was giving a general idea of how Lillie's own condition is being
        > treated (TYPES of meds)...Only a Cardiologist can determine
        dosages
        > best for your pet...but thought Lillie's types could serve as a
        > guidline for questions to ask the Cardiologist. If there is a
        reason
        > that you need to know the specific dosages for my particular cat,
        I
        > would gladly provide that if it somehow would help you...Just
        ask..
        > (nicely, of course) :)

        I don't think Linda was criticizing you in particular, she was just
        pointing out that information like "1/2 tab" is meaningless (and
        potentially misleading) because pills come in different dosages. So
        it's best that people provide the dosages in numbers or not at all.

        I have also felt frustrated in the past when seeing things like "1/2
        tab lasix" because I like to be able to compare doses to what Morag
        is taking and can't based on that type of information.

        Sarah.
      • turkishangoraathumanesociety
        Well, Sarah...unfortunately I received an email from a poster wanting exact dosage because THEY are on heart meds (atenolol), and thought that they d just go
        Message 3 of 12 , Jul 5, 2004
          Well, Sarah...unfortunately I received an email from a poster
          wanting exact dosage because THEY are on heart meds (atenolol), and
          thought that they'd just go ahead and dose it out to their cat. I
          don't know if this was to save on Cardiologist or what, but you step
          into VERY dangerous territory here. I have NO IDEA what type of
          heart failure this woman's cat is dealing with, and what is right for
          my cat, may KILL hers....And no, unfortunately I am not making this
          up (I WISH I was). I BEG the poster who is considering this to
          realize that meds are specific to what is going on with your
          particular cat....and there isn't just one general "heart failure"
          med. Very VERY dangerous. That's why I like to discuss types only,
          and they can take it up with the specialist. If anyone cares to
          elaborate on the beta blocker/Channel blocker/diff meds for different
          heart conditions thing, please do, for this person, because I am at a
          loss for words right now.



          --- In feline-heart@yahoogroups.com, "brinkett" <scrubbrush@r...>
          wrote:
          > I don't think Linda was criticizing you in particular, she was just
          > pointing out that information like "1/2 tab" is meaningless (and
          > potentially misleading) because pills come in different dosages.
          So
          > it's best that people provide the dosages in numbers or not at
          all.
          >
          > I have also felt frustrated in the past when seeing things
          like "1/2
          > tab lasix" because I like to be able to compare doses to what Morag
          > is taking and can't based on that type of information.
          >
          > Sarah.
          --------------------------------------------------------------

          > > I was giving a general idea of how Lillie's own condition is
          being
          > > treated (TYPES of meds)...Only a Cardiologist can determine
          > dosages
          > > best for your pet...but thought Lillie's types could serve as a
          > > guidline for questions to ask the Cardiologist. If there is a
          > reason
          > > that you need to know the specific dosages for my particular cat,
          > I
          > > would gladly provide that if it somehow would help you...Just
          > ask..
          > > (nicely, of course) :)
          >
        • Linda Fischbach
          Maybe the best thing is to just list what meds the kitty is taking (like atenolol, lasix and enalapril) without mentioning the fraction of the pill given or
          Message 4 of 12 , Jul 5, 2004
            Maybe the best thing is to just list what meds the kitty is taking (like
            atenolol, lasix and enalapril) without mentioning the fraction of the pill
            given or how often.

            Linda


            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "turkishangoraathumanesociety"
            <turkishangoraathumanesociety@...>
            To: <feline-heart@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Monday, July 05, 2004 8:00 PM
            Subject: [FH] Re: cat w/ CHF


            > Well, Sarah...unfortunately I received an email from a poster
            > wanting exact dosage because THEY are on heart meds (atenolol), and
            > thought that they'd just go ahead and dose it out to their cat. I
            > don't know if this was to save on Cardiologist or what, but you step
            > into VERY dangerous territory here. I have NO IDEA what type of
            > heart failure this woman's cat is dealing with, and what is right for
            > my cat, may KILL hers....And no, unfortunately I am not making this
            > up (I WISH I was). I BEG the poster who is considering this to
            > realize that meds are specific to what is going on with your
            > particular cat....and there isn't just one general "heart failure"
            > med. Very VERY dangerous. That's why I like to discuss types only,
            > and they can take it up with the specialist. If anyone cares to
            > elaborate on the beta blocker/Channel blocker/diff meds for different
            > heart conditions thing, please do, for this person, because I am at a
            > loss for words right now.
          • William Draper
            no doubt! if anyone in this group has any questions at all, please feel free to ask. i know that a FAQ full of medical information can be daunting at times.
            Message 5 of 12 , Jul 5, 2004
              no doubt! if anyone in this group has any questions at all, please feel free to ask. i know that a FAQ full of medical information can be daunting at times. if you don't know where to start, please let me or someone else walk you though it slowly. DO NOT medicate you pet on your own. do not use dosing information from other animals as a guideline to how your vet is treating your animal. while there are standard doses for certain drugs, when combined they sometimes need to be "tweaked" a bit in order to function optimally. this is why we go to school (among other things). treatment regimens need to be determined on a case-by-case basis. if you give atenolol to a cat in CHF, you will definitely make it worse. if you give digitalis to a cat in asymptomatic HCF, you will likely progress the disease. animal disease pathophysiology progresses the same way as human. cats don't just have "heart disease". as a group we are here to help. if you want to contact me, and not notify the group, please feel free to do so. although i am not a doctor yet, i will still maintain the privacy of my "patients".

              bill
              dvm in 2005
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: turkishangoraathumanesociety
              To: feline-heart@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Monday, July 05, 2004 9:00 PM
              Subject: [FH] Re: cat w/ CHF


              Well, Sarah...unfortunately I received an email from a poster
              wanting exact dosage because THEY are on heart meds (atenolol), and
              thought that they'd just go ahead and dose it out to their cat. I
              don't know if this was to save on Cardiologist or what, but you step
              into VERY dangerous territory here. I have NO IDEA what type of
              heart failure this woman's cat is dealing with, and what is right for
              my cat, may KILL hers....And no, unfortunately I am not making this
              up (I WISH I was). I BEG the poster who is considering this to
              realize that meds are specific to what is going on with your
              particular cat....and there isn't just one general "heart failure"
              med. Very VERY dangerous. That's why I like to discuss types only,
              and they can take it up with the specialist. If anyone cares to
              elaborate on the beta blocker/Channel blocker/diff meds for different
              heart conditions thing, please do, for this person, because I am at a
              loss for words right now.



              --- In feline-heart@yahoogroups.com, "brinkett" <scrubbrush@r...>
              wrote:
              > I don't think Linda was criticizing you in particular, she was just
              > pointing out that information like "1/2 tab" is meaningless (and
              > potentially misleading) because pills come in different dosages.
              So
              > it's best that people provide the dosages in numbers or not at
              all.
              >
              > I have also felt frustrated in the past when seeing things
              like "1/2
              > tab lasix" because I like to be able to compare doses to what Morag
              > is taking and can't based on that type of information.
              >
              > Sarah.
              --------------------------------------------------------------

              > > I was giving a general idea of how Lillie's own condition is
              being
              > > treated (TYPES of meds)...Only a Cardiologist can determine
              > dosages
              > > best for your pet...but thought Lillie's types could serve as a
              > > guidline for questions to ask the Cardiologist. If there is a
              > reason
              > > that you need to know the specific dosages for my particular cat,
              > I
              > > would gladly provide that if it somehow would help you...Just
              > ask..
              > > (nicely, of course) :)
              >




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              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • brinkett
              ... different ... at a ... The person should read the FAQ that is in the links section. And the person should *not* give medication to their cat without
              Message 6 of 12 , Jul 5, 2004
                > If anyone cares to
                > elaborate on the beta blocker/Channel blocker/diff meds for
                different
                > heart conditions thing, please do, for this person, because I am
                at a
                > loss for words right now.

                The person should read the FAQ that is in the links section. And
                the person should *not* give medication to their cat without
                consulting a vet or cardiologist first. Whoever you are, you may
                KILL YOUR CAT. So see a vet or cardiologist, please.

                But I think the original point was that putting fractions of tablets
                doesn't convey any information, and in fact may be very misleading
                because different people may have the same medication in different
                pill sizes. Either the exact dosage should be listed or no dosage
                at all.

                I also think it'll be a shame if we can't share dosages - after all,
                this is a group where we share information so we can best treat our
                cats. We can't stop people from being stupid - we can just hope
                people exercise common sense. So I hope people continue to share
                what dosages they are using, but that's just my opinion.

                Sarah.
              • turkishangoraathumanesociety
                I believe that is why we also have the Our Furbabies in the database...for that very detailed info that you are seeking. If Linda or anyone wants far more
                Message 7 of 12 , Jul 5, 2004
                  I believe that is why we also have the "Our Furbabies" in the
                  database...for that very detailed info that you are seeking. If
                  Linda or anyone wants far more details in every post it is mentioned,
                  they are free to do so. I would never mandate my opinions on anyone,
                  and I would expect that anyone would feel the same. I defer to the
                  database for any detailed meds, and I am also very open to being
                  asked. I am not open, however, to Linda's original scolding
                  schoolmarm post.
                  1) database
                  2) or ask nicely
                  We are all adults here.

                  --- In feline-heart@yahoogroups.com, "brinkett" <scrubbrush@r...>
                  wrote:
                  > > If anyone cares to
                  > > elaborate on the beta blocker/Channel blocker/diff meds for
                  > different
                  > > heart conditions thing, please do, for this person, because I am
                  > at a
                  > > loss for words right now.
                  >
                  > The person should read the FAQ that is in the links section. And
                  > the person should *not* give medication to their cat without
                  > consulting a vet or cardiologist first. Whoever you are, you may
                  > KILL YOUR CAT. So see a vet or cardiologist, please.
                  >
                  > But I think the original point was that putting fractions of
                  tablets
                  > doesn't convey any information, and in fact may be very misleading
                  > because different people may have the same medication in different
                  > pill sizes. Either the exact dosage should be listed or no dosage
                  > at all.
                  >
                  > I also think it'll be a shame if we can't share dosages - after
                  all,
                  > this is a group where we share information so we can best treat our
                  > cats. We can't stop people from being stupid - we can just hope
                  > people exercise common sense. So I hope people continue to share
                  > what dosages they are using, but that's just my opinion.
                  >
                  > Sarah.
                • mainecoonsusa@aol.com
                  In a message dated 7/5/2004 9:00:46 PM Eastern Standard Time, scrubbrush@rogers.com writes: I also think it ll be a shame if we can t share dosages - after
                  Message 8 of 12 , Jul 5, 2004
                    In a message dated 7/5/2004 9:00:46 PM Eastern Standard Time,
                    scrubbrush@... writes:
                    I also think it'll be a shame if we can't share dosages - after all,
                    this is a group where we share information so we can best treat our
                    cats. We can't stop people from being stupid - we can just hope
                    people exercise common sense. So I hope people continue to share
                    what dosages they are using, but that's just my opinion.
                    I agree. And I will continue to share what I am giving to my cat.

                    Speaking of my cat, I wanted to let everyone know he did fine this weekend
                    while I was away. He took his medication for the the cat sitter and seems to be
                    doing well.

                    I've started him today on the extra dosage of Enalapril. He goes to my vets
                    on Saturday for a chem profile.

                    JoAnn

                    JoAnn & Connor

                    1/2 30 mg Diltiazem 2x a day
                    1/2 2.5 mg Enalalpril 2x a daily
                    12.5 mg Lasix 2x a day
                    low dose enteric coated Aspirin 2x a week for HCM

                    1 puff AM, 1 puff PM 110 Flovent for Asthma


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • brinkett
                    ... mentioned, ... anyone, ... the ... I didn t find her response scolding or schoolmarmish. But I know how easily people get upset when they *think* they re
                    Message 9 of 12 , Jul 5, 2004
                      > I believe that is why we also have the "Our Furbabies" in the
                      > database...for that very detailed info that you are seeking. If
                      > Linda or anyone wants far more details in every post it is
                      mentioned,
                      > they are free to do so. I would never mandate my opinions on
                      anyone,
                      > and I would expect that anyone would feel the same. I defer to
                      the
                      > database for any detailed meds, and I am also very open to being
                      > asked. I am not open, however, to Linda's original scolding
                      > schoolmarm post.
                      > 1) database
                      > 2) or ask nicely
                      > We are all adults here.

                      I didn't find her response scolding or schoolmarmish. But I know
                      how easily people get upset when they *think* they're being scolded
                      publicly. Remember that (a) it's very easy to take things that are
                      written the wrong way, and (b) there are real, living human beings
                      at the other end of all of these posts, so before taking offense,
                      take a deep breath and wait at least an hour before responding.
                      Just about all the time, you'll find that after calming down and re-
                      reading the post that upset you, it won't seem so bad.

                      This is not directed to you in particular, but to everyone,
                      including me, because I've been scolded here publicly too at times,
                      or felt like I have been. Perhaps you feel scolded because her
                      comment came after one of your posts, but if you reread her post,
                      you'll see that the suggestion was made to the entire group, not to
                      you specifically.

                      As far as the database, the vast majority of members have not
                      entered anything in the database and the entries can easily go out
                      of date. I know Morag's is because her medications have been
                      adjusted several times.

                      We've always posted dosages here. Linda's point wasn't that dosages
                      shouldn't be posted, but that if they are going to be posted, do it
                      in a way that conveys useful information. As you said, we're all
                      adults, and so we should know to consult a vet before making any
                      changes to our cat's treatment plan.

                      Sarah.
                    • Susan
                      ... I also hope the practice of including the particulars such as age, breed, diagnosis and treatment regimen in the form of a sig in the bottom of all emails
                      Message 10 of 12 , Jul 6, 2004
                        --- brinkett <scrubbrush@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > I also think it'll be a shame if we can't share
                        > dosages - after all,
                        > this is a group where we share information so we can
                        > best treat our
                        > cats. So I hope people
                        > continue to share
                        > what dosages they are using, but that's just my
                        > opinion.


                        I also hope the practice of including the particulars
                        such as age, breed, diagnosis and treatment regimen in
                        the form of a sig in the bottom of all emails that are
                        asking questions is adopted by most. It really helps
                        when trying to answer questions. I think of it as the
                        equivalent of chart notes. I personally have a very
                        hard time remmebering and though you may have spelled
                        out the whole scenario just a few days ago I have
                        already forgotten :(

                        See my sig below for an example (Rudy weighs 8.2 lbs now)

                        =====
                        Rudy: Male DSH brown tabby, feral mom, diagnosed 09-2002 at 19 months of age with idiopathic HCM: grade 2 murmur, hyperkinetic heart, borderline normal thickening, considered asymptomatic, 12.5 mg Atenolol 1x day, 1/2 baby aspirin 2x week administered via pilling




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