Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

RE: [FH] Holistic vs allopathic

Expand Messages
  • Shane Fox Luper
    Hi Bill ( and everyone else who s been contributing to this topic) The last bit of this note that you wrote is interesting. I have been to many vets over the
    Message 1 of 14 , May 28, 2004
    • 0 Attachment
      Hi Bill ( and everyone else who's been contributing to this topic)

      The last bit of this note that you wrote is interesting. I have been to many
      vets over the years, holistic and allopathic. More recently, I was referred
      to a holistic vet for one of our cats with teeth problems. This vet was one
      of a few holistic vets who does perform surgeries. And I knew our kitty
      would need teeth pulled. And knowing what I know with anesthesia-free teeth
      cleaning, I thought I knew a thing or two. Well, I didn't. This vet, a
      horrible quack, did ridiculous things to our cat. Have you heard of
      "Bio-kinetics", well he tried using this "gun" type thing that Chiropractors
      use on their patients on her for a "neck problems" he thought she had, only
      he touched his hand to the area on her back and held the gun to his own
      neck! He said it was working "THROUGH" him!!! My husband and I were
      disgusted really. The guy wound up pulling several teeth in the end and only
      giving her an anti-biotic shot -nothing orally, nor any pain meds. She was
      sick for a month with swollen glands that would not go down so we took her
      to our regular vet. In a nutshell, I learned that for proper tooth removal
      on a pet, you need to do dental x-rays in order to see everything and also,
      in order to remove the ROOT of the tooth! I was clueless about this, but I
      learned quickly. The quack vet never did x-rays and wound up leaving root
      which caused the swollen glands. So in addition to paying the quacks bill of
      $1000.00 we had to pay the other vet to correct the quack's mistake. It
      really chapped my hide, but now, at least I know.



      What it really boils down to for me is that I believe that with what I have
      experienced, there are some really good holistic vets and I know a few good
      ones) out there, and some real quacks that people should just stay away
      from.



      I.M.H.O.



      Shane





      _____

      From: William Draper [mailto:wedraper@...]
      Sent: Friday, May 28, 2004 10:29 AM
      To: feline-heart@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [FH] Holistic vs allopathic



      - "And I am sorry, Bill, but I must patently disagree with you and agree
      with Deena that many vets, GOOD vets, will prescribe for the symptom and not
      the problem"
      -- then they are practicing incorrectly. that is NOT the way we are trained
      to treat disease.

      - "We tried theophylline and made household changes--got rid of silica based
      litter, got a HEPA air purifier, etc. No help. He wanted to put her on
      prednisone. I'm sorry, but I won't take
      steroids and I will not put my cats on them"
      -- hmm, it would seem that this statement refutes my previous argument.
      however, steroids have been the "magic bullet" for many animals with many
      different diseases. for me it definitely won't be a first-line drug for
      most things (though it is essential in things like shock therapy and auto
      immune diseases), but i will probably adhere to the motto "never let an
      animal die without the benefit of steroids".

      - it has come to my attention that things i filed in my brain under "adjunct
      therapy" are actually pseudo-holistic remedies. things like omega fatty
      acids and taurine as nutritional supplements for certain diseases i agree
      with. my problem is people using herbal extracts with ingredients that make
      no sense. giving a cat with HCM a positive inotrope can not be a good idea.
      that goes against everything we know about the pathogenesis of the disease.
      however, giving an animal with an inflammatory problem omega fatty acids (as
      they can be incorporated into the cell membrane and replace the inflammatory
      precursors), now that makes sense to me. i WILL do some more reading into
      this, as it intrigues me. i reiterate that i am all for the best treatment
      options for my future clients. i just can't abide by the "my mom's best
      friend's hairstylist gave her cat substance A and it got over disease X".
      this is how holistic medicine seems to be propagate to me. we have had a
      few holistic vets come to school to give lectures, and they just don't
      impress me. their knowledge of basic disease processes is lacking, and they
      seem to have a standard remedy for every disease.

      bill
      dvm in 2005
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Marjorie Blaine
      To: HCM
      Sent: Friday, May 28, 2004 3:54 AM
      Subject: [FH] Holistic vs allopathic


      Well, I suppose I'd like to throw my two cents into the fray. I've had
      cats
      since I was 6 years old--42 years now--and I also have a Master's Degree
      in
      Wildlife Biology which is not a veterinary degree but I have studied and
      taught human and animal anatomy and physiology and was accepted into vet
      school (more on that later). I've done research, understand about large
      sample sizes (one of my beefs is human studies which used 300 people but
      make gross generalizations). I've volunteered at a no-kill cat shelter
      for
      the past 7 years and seen all kinds of things. I've studied feline
      nutrition diligently the past several years. I'm not saying any of this
      to
      pat my own back but just so you'll know I'm not a novice cat person who
      has
      no idea about scientific research or veterinary science, etc.

      After feeding my cats Science Diet for years, vaccinating annually
      w/FVRCP,
      feleuk, and rabies and having lost a cat to vaccination site sarcoma, I
      have
      a little experience with this stuff. The ONLY treatment which seemed to
      truly help my cat was holistic. It gave us 4 months of good quality life
      with him that our oncologist and regular vet said we'd never have. I
      believe firmly in a high-quality diet (not Science Diet, Iams, Nutro, etc)
      and using holistic medicine knowing there are some cases where allopathic
      is
      necessary (eg my Max is on atenolol). I have a fabulous vet who practices
      both types of medicine altho she firmly believes holistic is the best way
      of
      treating an animal and human. Sarah mentions she likes to base treatment
      of
      her cat with a critical illness on scientific studies. Please correct me
      if
      I'm wrong but there are no definitive studies with large sample sizes that
      indicate atenolol is effective in cats. However, the majority of us use
      it
      to decrease the symptoms of this horrible disease. We know it won't cure
      them. I do agree there are holistic treatments which may work for humans
      but not animals--that's why you need a vet who KNOWS what they are doing
      when you are using holistic or homeopathic treatment. I would never
      undertake this on my own. I also don't believe there is always an
      "efficacious" way to deal with a particular illness. Genetically, we are
      all different and our bodies may react differently to different substances
      (same reason why I don't believe you can just throw estrogen at a
      peri-menopausal or menopausal woman--our hormone levels can be quite
      different and what one needs, another may not). And I am sorry, Bill, but
      I
      must patently disagree with you and agree with Deena that many vets, GOOD
      vets, will prescribe for the symptom and not the problem. Many good human
      doctors do the same. Example--I was working with a fantastic vet (I
      interviewed 20 vets before I settled on him--let's call him Dr. Mike). My
      elderly cat developed asthma. We tried theophylline and made household
      changes--got rid of silica based litter, got a HEPA air purifier, etc. No
      help. He wanted to put her on prednisone. I'm sorry, but I won't take
      steroids and I will not put my cats on them. He understood 150% and said,
      let's take this to the holistic vet (who is my current vet). We did;
      using
      herbs and a Standard Process supplement, my cat quit coughing--has not had
      an asthma attack in 5 years--and the first vet cannot believe how her
      lungs
      sound (quiet as can be) compared to how they started out sounding. Dr.
      Mike
      ( a top graduate of CSU by the way--a premier vet school) told me that
      sometimes you don't have a choice as much as you want to address the
      underlying cause. I am not saying they don't give it their best shot but
      even in advanced human medicine sometimes there's just no answer. He also
      told me that MOST vets have NO training on nutrition. I understand that
      now
      some veterinary schools are starting some nutrition training but anytime I
      hear a vet recommending Science Diet--forget it--he doesn't know about
      feline nutrition. Sorry....it's the truth. You can compare it to you
      eating good, whole, fresh foods (i.e. preparing meals from scratch with
      good
      ingredients) as opposed to eating Hamburger Helper with all of its
      preservatives.

      If you want some info about HCM cats that have been cured, you might want
      to
      check "The Whole Cat Journal". I don't have the volume here at work but
      can
      provide you with it or fax you the article. It provides names of
      veterinarians who have cured HCM with homeopathic medicine and how they
      did
      it and how, most definitely, it is NOT one size fits all. Bill, a truly
      great vet is open to using whatever modalities to treat their patients.
      Please, please, don't let vet school brainwash you. You can be an awesome
      allopathic vet (like Dr. Mike and my current vet) and still also practice
      holistic medicine. They can work together. I also don't vaccinate my
      cats
      anymore. My holistic vet said (and this was agreed with by Dr. Mike)
      "give
      them their FVRCP when babies--the first dose and the booster" and let
      their
      own immune system kick in after that. Of course we vaccinate children.
      But
      we don't vaccinate them ANNUALLY with the same thing year after year after
      year. And I promise you giving cats FVRCP, feleuk, AND rabies all at one
      time is severely compromising their immune system. I also must agree on
      switching cats from a poor quality, preservative enhanced commercial diet
      to
      a raw diet. The results are amazing. My holistic vet said it's one of
      the
      best treatments for IBD. And guess what? When I first started going to my
      holistic vet, she was not a proponent of raw diets for the same reason
      many
      mentioned in this group (salmonella). I provided her with a lot of
      literature but she was still skeptical. Then she went to a conference,
      joined an egroup on raw diets, began feeding her cats AND dogs raw and now
      she is a top proponent of raw diets. She has a 19 year old cat with
      diabetes at her clinic. Started feeding raw and was able to substantially
      reduce her insulin. However, if you don't want to feed raw (properly
      supplemented, of course), you can either lightly cook the meats OR you can
      feed one of the higher quality canned foods made from USDA approved human
      grade meats (e.g. Wellness or Azmira to name only two). For anyone who is
      interested, there is a great book entitled "The Nature of Animal Healing"
      written by a traditionally trained vet, Dr. Martin Goldstein. It tells of
      his path to natural feeding and treatment. I highly recommend it for
      aspiring vets. AAFCO does not ensure optimum nutrition. Some treats
      state
      they meet AAFCO but I wouldn't feed my cat a diet of them. Many AAFCO
      stamped foods contain SALT. Why? Cats do not need a diet supplemented
      with
      salt. And for our HCM cats, that's the last thing we need. But your
      point
      is well taken that it sets some sort of standard for those who don't
      really
      look at feline nutrition.

      I know how vets are trained. I was accepted into vet school but spent a
      summer working with a vet and I just didn't have the emotional strength at
      21 to deal with the people who abused animals, animals being euthanized,
      cats being declawed, etc. I didn't think I could tolerate alot of what
      vets
      see--maybe I could have. So I will say, I do know the courses you have to
      take and as I've said, I've taught human and animal A&P at the college
      level. Of course vet students study when and why disease starts. But
      sometimes I think there's a broader picture then just focusing on a
      particular organ (for instance) which might be showing symptoms of
      illness.
      For non-genetic diseases, I think the bigger picture goes to the immune
      system--when it is in balance and maximized, the body systems are as well.
      Since I started treating my own body better and more holistically--eating
      whole, natural foods--no colds, no flu, no illnesses; I'm in much better
      physical shape at 48 than probably 90% of 20 year olds and definitely
      better
      than I was when I was younger. My cats are the same--oh the amazing
      improvement in their coats, their teeth, their health--everything since we
      changed to a better diet and started using holistic supplements. We
      rescued
      our oldest cat at 4 weeks and she has travelled the world with us and is
      now
      20; her blood work just done showed everything in normal range and she is
      just steaming along (knock on wood) maintaining her lifelong weight, eats
      right, has the stool of a young cat--she's amazing. Since she has lived
      longer than any other cat I've had and she was switched to a more holistic
      way of life when she was 10, I have to believe we're doing something
      right.

      My main point in all of this is--we each need to do what we feel is best
      for
      our beloved companions. If you only want to treat your cat
      allopathicly--please, do; I respect that 100% and I don't feel you are
      less
      concerned about your cat than I am about mine. But I have felt in reading
      many threads that those of us who use holistic or homeopathic treatments
      are
      thought to be using something akin to voodoo and we must not really care
      about our cats if we are not treating them with the tried and true
      methods.
      Let's just be open-minded to each other. I doubt very seriously that Mr.
      Pepe would have lived as long with as good a quality of life if it weren't
      for his treatment. And my Maxie just had his check up (he was diagnosed
      9/03) and his echo was stable; his bp, heart rate, EKG, blood work, xray
      all
      "beautiful". We are blessed and not only do I thank my wonderful holistic
      vet and cardiologist who work together but I thank God because he gave
      these
      people these talents.

      BTW, Bill, even my cardiologist who does not practice holistic medicine,
      has
      worked fully with my holistic vet and supported all the holistic
      treatments
      we give Max; likewise, my holistic vet was 100% supportive of adding
      atenolol. Great vets--open-minded.

      Best of luck to you as you pursue your career--I know you must be very
      dedicated to helping animals to have chosen this path--it is truly a
      career
      of sacrifice of self on behalf of animal companions. And I pray all of
      you
      with HCM cats will have so many many more joyous moments with them.

      Marjorie
      Sitka, Teddi, Gus, & Max




      Your reply will go to the author of this message. If you feel your reply
      will benefit the entire group, please change the "To:" line to
      feline-heart@yahoogroups.com


      Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
      ADVERTISEMENT





      ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
      --
      Yahoo! Groups Links

      a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/feline-heart/

      b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
      feline-heart-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

      c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.




      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



      Your reply will go to the author of this message. If you feel your reply
      will benefit the entire group, please change the "To:" line to
      feline-heart@yahoogroups.com






      Yahoo! Groups Sponsor



      ADVERTISEMENT

      <http://rd.yahoo.com/SIG=129tes73g/M=295196.4901138.6071305.3001176/D=groups
      /S=1707296857:HM/EXP=1085855402/A=2128215/R=0/SIG=10se96mf6/*http:/companion
      .yahoo.com> click here



      <http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=295196.4901138.6071305.3001176/D=groups/S=
      :HM/A=2128215/rand=841112189>



      _____

      Yahoo! Groups Links

      * To visit your group on the web, go to:
      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/feline-heart/

      * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
      feline-heart-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
      <mailto:feline-heart-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>

      * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
      <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service.



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Iben
      Better find a holistic vet who is both holistic and a normal vet! Iben & Nadia ... From: Shane Fox Luper To: William Draper ; feline-heart@yahoogroups.com
      Message 2 of 14 , May 28, 2004
      • 0 Attachment
        Better find a holistic vet who is both holistic and a "normal" vet!

        Iben & Nadia
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: Shane Fox Luper
        To: 'William Draper' ; feline-heart@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Saturday, May 29, 2004 1:32 AM
        Subject: RE: [FH] Holistic vs allopathic


        Hi Bill ( and everyone else who's been contributing to this topic)

        The last bit of this note that you wrote is interesting. I have been to many
        vets over the years, holistic and allopathic. More recently, I was referred
        to a holistic vet for one of our cats with teeth problems. This vet was one
        of a few holistic vets who does perform surgeries. And I knew our kitty
        would need teeth pulled. And knowing what I know with anesthesia-free teeth
        cleaning, I thought I knew a thing or two. Well, I didn't. This vet, a
        horrible quack, did ridiculous things to our cat. Have you heard of
        "Bio-kinetics", well he tried using this "gun" type thing that Chiropractors
        use on their patients on her for a "neck problems" he thought she had, only
        he touched his hand to the area on her back and held the gun to his own
        neck! He said it was working "THROUGH" him!!! My husband and I were
        disgusted really. The guy wound up pulling several teeth in the end and only
        giving her an anti-biotic shot -nothing orally, nor any pain meds. She was
        sick for a month with swollen glands that would not go down so we took her
        to our regular vet. In a nutshell, I learned that for proper tooth removal
        on a pet, you need to do dental x-rays in order to see everything and also,
        in order to remove the ROOT of the tooth! I was clueless about this, but I
        learned quickly. The quack vet never did x-rays and wound up leaving root
        which caused the swollen glands. So in addition to paying the quacks bill of
        $1000.00 we had to pay the other vet to correct the quack's mistake. It
        really chapped my hide, but now, at least I know.



        What it really boils down to for me is that I believe that with what I have
        experienced, there are some really good holistic vets and I know a few good
        ones) out there, and some real quacks that people should just stay away
        from.



        I.M.H.O.



        Shane





        _____

        From: William Draper [mailto:wedraper@...]
        Sent: Friday, May 28, 2004 10:29 AM
        To: feline-heart@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [FH] Holistic vs allopathic



        - "And I am sorry, Bill, but I must patently disagree with you and agree
        with Deena that many vets, GOOD vets, will prescribe for the symptom and not
        the problem"
        -- then they are practicing incorrectly. that is NOT the way we are trained
        to treat disease.

        - "We tried theophylline and made household changes--got rid of silica based
        litter, got a HEPA air purifier, etc. No help. He wanted to put her on
        prednisone. I'm sorry, but I won't take
        steroids and I will not put my cats on them"
        -- hmm, it would seem that this statement refutes my previous argument.
        however, steroids have been the "magic bullet" for many animals with many
        different diseases. for me it definitely won't be a first-line drug for
        most things (though it is essential in things like shock therapy and auto
        immune diseases), but i will probably adhere to the motto "never let an
        animal die without the benefit of steroids".

        - it has come to my attention that things i filed in my brain under "adjunct
        therapy" are actually pseudo-holistic remedies. things like omega fatty
        acids and taurine as nutritional supplements for certain diseases i agree
        with. my problem is people using herbal extracts with ingredients that make
        no sense. giving a cat with HCM a positive inotrope can not be a good idea.
        that goes against everything we know about the pathogenesis of the disease.
        however, giving an animal with an inflammatory problem omega fatty acids (as
        they can be incorporated into the cell membrane and replace the inflammatory
        precursors), now that makes sense to me. i WILL do some more reading into
        this, as it intrigues me. i reiterate that i am all for the best treatment
        options for my future clients. i just can't abide by the "my mom's best
        friend's hairstylist gave her cat substance A and it got over disease X".
        this is how holistic medicine seems to be propagate to me. we have had a
        few holistic vets come to school to give lectures, and they just don't
        impress me. their knowledge of basic disease processes is lacking, and they
        seem to have a standard remedy for every disease.

        bill
        dvm in 2005
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: Marjorie Blaine
        To: HCM
        Sent: Friday, May 28, 2004 3:54 AM
        Subject: [FH] Holistic vs allopathic


        Well, I suppose I'd like to throw my two cents into the fray. I've had
        cats
        since I was 6 years old--42 years now--and I also have a Master's Degree
        in
        Wildlife Biology which is not a veterinary degree but I have studied and
        taught human and animal anatomy and physiology and was accepted into vet
        school (more on that later). I've done research, understand about large
        sample sizes (one of my beefs is human studies which used 300 people but
        make gross generalizations). I've volunteered at a no-kill cat shelter
        for
        the past 7 years and seen all kinds of things. I've studied feline
        nutrition diligently the past several years. I'm not saying any of this
        to
        pat my own back but just so you'll know I'm not a novice cat person who
        has
        no idea about scientific research or veterinary science, etc.

        After feeding my cats Science Diet for years, vaccinating annually
        w/FVRCP,
        feleuk, and rabies and having lost a cat to vaccination site sarcoma, I
        have
        a little experience with this stuff. The ONLY treatment which seemed to
        truly help my cat was holistic. It gave us 4 months of good quality life
        with him that our oncologist and regular vet said we'd never have. I
        believe firmly in a high-quality diet (not Science Diet, Iams, Nutro, etc)
        and using holistic medicine knowing there are some cases where allopathic
        is
        necessary (eg my Max is on atenolol). I have a fabulous vet who practices
        both types of medicine altho she firmly believes holistic is the best way
        of
        treating an animal and human. Sarah mentions she likes to base treatment
        of
        her cat with a critical illness on scientific studies. Please correct me
        if
        I'm wrong but there are no definitive studies with large sample sizes that
        indicate atenolol is effective in cats. However, the majority of us use
        it
        to decrease the symptoms of this horrible disease. We know it won't cure
        them. I do agree there are holistic treatments which may work for humans
        but not animals--that's why you need a vet who KNOWS what they are doing
        when you are using holistic or homeopathic treatment. I would never
        undertake this on my own. I also don't believe there is always an
        "efficacious" way to deal with a particular illness. Genetically, we are
        all different and our bodies may react differently to different substances
        (same reason why I don't believe you can just throw estrogen at a
        peri-menopausal or menopausal woman--our hormone levels can be quite
        different and what one needs, another may not). And I am sorry, Bill, but
        I
        must patently disagree with you and agree with Deena that many vets, GOOD
        vets, will prescribe for the symptom and not the problem. Many good human
        doctors do the same. Example--I was working with a fantastic vet (I
        interviewed 20 vets before I settled on him--let's call him Dr. Mike). My
        elderly cat developed asthma. We tried theophylline and made household
        changes--got rid of silica based litter, got a HEPA air purifier, etc. No
        help. He wanted to put her on prednisone. I'm sorry, but I won't take
        steroids and I will not put my cats on them. He understood 150% and said,
        let's take this to the holistic vet (who is my current vet). We did;
        using
        herbs and a Standard Process supplement, my cat quit coughing--has not had
        an asthma attack in 5 years--and the first vet cannot believe how her
        lungs
        sound (quiet as can be) compared to how they started out sounding. Dr.
        Mike
        ( a top graduate of CSU by the way--a premier vet school) told me that
        sometimes you don't have a choice as much as you want to address the
        underlying cause. I am not saying they don't give it their best shot but
        even in advanced human medicine sometimes there's just no answer. He also
        told me that MOST vets have NO training on nutrition. I understand that
        now
        some veterinary schools are starting some nutrition training but anytime I
        hear a vet recommending Science Diet--forget it--he doesn't know about
        feline nutrition. Sorry....it's the truth. You can compare it to you
        eating good, whole, fresh foods (i.e. preparing meals from scratch with
        good
        ingredients) as opposed to eating Hamburger Helper with all of its
        preservatives.

        If you want some info about HCM cats that have been cured, you might want
        to
        check "The Whole Cat Journal". I don't have the volume here at work but
        can
        provide you with it or fax you the article. It provides names of
        veterinarians who have cured HCM with homeopathic medicine and how they
        did
        it and how, most definitely, it is NOT one size fits all. Bill, a truly
        great vet is open to using whatever modalities to treat their patients.
        Please, please, don't let vet school brainwash you. You can be an awesome
        allopathic vet (like Dr. Mike and my current vet) and still also practice
        holistic medicine. They can work together. I also don't vaccinate my
        cats
        anymore. My holistic vet said (and this was agreed with by Dr. Mike)
        "give
        them their FVRCP when babies--the first dose and the booster" and let
        their
        own immune system kick in after that. Of course we vaccinate children.
        But
        we don't vaccinate them ANNUALLY with the same thing year after year after
        year. And I promise you giving cats FVRCP, feleuk, AND rabies all at one
        time is severely compromising their immune system. I also must agree on
        switching cats from a poor quality, preservative enhanced commercial diet
        to
        a raw diet. The results are amazing. My holistic vet said it's one of
        the
        best treatments for IBD. And guess what? When I first started going to my
        holistic vet, she was not a proponent of raw diets for the same reason
        many
        mentioned in this group (salmonella). I provided her with a lot of
        literature but she was still skeptical. Then she went to a conference,
        joined an egroup on raw diets, began feeding her cats AND dogs raw and now
        she is a top proponent of raw diets. She has a 19 year old cat with
        diabetes at her clinic. Started feeding raw and was able to substantially
        reduce her insulin. However, if you don't want to feed raw (properly
        supplemented, of course), you can either lightly cook the meats OR you can
        feed one of the higher quality canned foods made from USDA approved human
        grade meats (e.g. Wellness or Azmira to name only two). For anyone who is
        interested, there is a great book entitled "The Nature of Animal Healing"
        written by a traditionally trained vet, Dr. Martin Goldstein. It tells of
        his path to natural feeding and treatment. I highly recommend it for
        aspiring vets. AAFCO does not ensure optimum nutrition. Some treats
        state
        they meet AAFCO but I wouldn't feed my cat a diet of them. Many AAFCO
        stamped foods contain SALT. Why? Cats do not need a diet supplemented
        with
        salt. And for our HCM cats, that's the last thing we need. But your
        point
        is well taken that it sets some sort of standard for those who don't
        really
        look at feline nutrition.

        I know how vets are trained. I was accepted into vet school but spent a
        summer working with a vet and I just didn't have the emotional strength at
        21 to deal with the people who abused animals, animals being euthanized,
        cats being declawed, etc. I didn't think I could tolerate alot of what
        vets
        see--maybe I could have. So I will say, I do know the courses you have to
        take and as I've said, I've taught human and animal A&P at the college
        level. Of course vet students study when and why disease starts. But
        sometimes I think there's a broader picture then just focusing on a
        particular organ (for instance) which might be showing symptoms of
        illness.
        For non-genetic diseases, I think the bigger picture goes to the immune
        system--when it is in balance and maximized, the body systems are as well.
        Since I started treating my own body better and more holistically--eating
        whole, natural foods--no colds, no flu, no illnesses; I'm in much better
        physical shape at 48 than probably 90% of 20 year olds and definitely
        better
        than I was when I was younger. My cats are the same--oh the amazing
        improvement in their coats, their teeth, their health--everything since we
        changed to a better diet and started using holistic supplements. We
        rescued
        our oldest cat at 4 weeks and she has travelled the world with us and is
        now
        20; her blood work just done showed everything in normal range and she is
        just steaming along (knock on wood) maintaining her lifelong weight, eats
        right, has the stool of a young cat--she's amazing. Since she has lived
        longer than any other cat I've had and she was switched to a more holistic
        way of life when she was 10, I have to believe we're doing something
        right.

        My main point in all of this is--we each need to do what we feel is best
        for
        our beloved companions. If you only want to treat your cat
        allopathicly--please, do; I respect that 100% and I don't feel you are
        less
        concerned about your cat than I am about mine. But I have felt in reading
        many threads that those of us who use holistic or homeopathic treatments
        are
        thought to be using something akin to voodoo and we must not really care
        about our cats if we are not treating them with the tried and true
        methods.
        Let's just be open-minded to each other. I doubt very seriously that Mr.
        Pepe would have lived as long with as good a quality of life if it weren't
        for his treatment. And my Maxie just had his check up (he was diagnosed
        9/03) and his echo was stable; his bp, heart rate, EKG, blood work, xray
        all
        "beautiful". We are blessed and not only do I thank my wonderful holistic
        vet and cardiologist who work together but I thank God because he gave
        these
        people these talents.

        BTW, Bill, even my cardiologist who does not practice holistic medicine,
        has
        worked fully with my holistic vet and supported all the holistic
        treatments
        we give Max; likewise, my holistic vet was 100% supportive of adding
        atenolol. Great vets--open-minded.

        Best of luck to you as you pursue your career--I know you must be very
        dedicated to helping animals to have chosen this path--it is truly a
        career
        of sacrifice of self on behalf of animal companions. And I pray all of
        you
        with HCM cats will have so many many more joyous moments with them.

        Marjorie
        Sitka, Teddi, Gus, & Max




        Your reply will go to the author of this message. If you feel your reply
        will benefit the entire group, please change the "To:" line to
        feline-heart@yahoogroups.com


        Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
        ADVERTISEMENT





        ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
        --
        Yahoo! Groups Links

        a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/feline-heart/

        b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
        feline-heart-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

        c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.




        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



        Your reply will go to the author of this message. If you feel your reply
        will benefit the entire group, please change the "To:" line to
        feline-heart@yahoogroups.com






        Yahoo! Groups Sponsor



        ADVERTISEMENT

        <http://rd.yahoo.com/SIG=129tes73g/M=295196.4901138.6071305.3001176/D=groups
        /S=1707296857:HM/EXP=1085855402/A=2128215/R=0/SIG=10se96mf6/*http:/companion
        .yahoo.com> click here



        <http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=295196.4901138.6071305.3001176/D=groups/S=
        :HM/A=2128215/rand=841112189>



        _____

        Yahoo! Groups Links

        * To visit your group on the web, go to:
        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/feline-heart/

        * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
        feline-heart-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
        <mailto:feline-heart-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>

        * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
        <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service.



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



        Your reply will go to the author of this message. If you feel your reply will benefit the entire group, please change the "To:" line to feline-heart@yahoogroups.com


        Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
        ADVERTISEMENT





        ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
        Yahoo! Groups Links

        a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/feline-heart/

        b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
        feline-heart-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

        c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Deena
        ... wrote: i have know idea what crategus is. ... Hey Bill & others, I have my friendly face on...so don t be afraid to keep reading. I think
        Message 3 of 14 , May 29, 2004
        • 0 Attachment
          --- In feline-heart@yahoogroups.com, "William Draper"
          <wedraper@e...> wrote: i have know idea what crategus is.
          >
          Hey Bill & others,

          I have my friendly face on...so don't be afraid to keep reading.

          I think she's talking about the homeopathic version of hawthorn.
          I understand your concern regarding hawthorn, since logic indicates
          it should be harmful. Yet, it gets listed in pretty much every
          holistic books as being beneficial for heart kitties.

          This is how it was explained to me by Mary Tilford DVM, the wife of
          Greg Tilford the "Herbs for Pets" guy, when I asked the same
          question. I'm paraphrasing here, so don't quote me. "When
          you single out the active ingredient in hawthorn, it may appear
          harmful for HCM. But when you use it in it's whole form, it seems
          to act as a very strong heart conditioner and BP regulator. Mother
          nature builds in these checks & balances that sciences is unable to
          duplicate in a lab."

          This is why I always try to use a whole food supplement rather than
          just the active ingredient, if possible. For example, egg whites
          are known to deplete biotin. But when you include the yoke & shell,
          eggs provide the #1 bioavailable food for a cat. So I try to always
          feed whole foods figuring if Mother Nature didn't want wolves to eat
          egg whites, she would have taught them how to use an egg separator.
          Mary Tilford seemed very approachable when I talked to her and may
          take your call. I'm sure she can explain this better than I.

          Based on my personal experience with hawthorn, I found it's one of
          the herbs you should NOT be fooling around with unless instucted by
          a qualified practitioner. Especially if a cat has severe heart
          disease. Initially, Mr Pepe tested very negative to hawthorn, but
          later tested very strong. What caused the change? My guess is that
          when his CHF was very severe, whatever hawthorne does would have
          made him worse. When he got the fluid under control and his
          breathing was stable, his heart was able to reap the benefit of
          hawthorne, so it tested "strongly beneficial" for him.

          This is a perfect example of why you do not want to treat heart
          kitties holistically based on one persons experience or by reading
          one book. I hear your frustration with this practice. My mother-in-
          law swears that if it appears in Ladies Home Journal that it HAS to
          be medical fact. For holistic treatment to be effective (and safe),
          it MUST be personalized to the individual patient's needs. Because
          our cells change on a daily basis, theoretically treatments can
          change too.

          If you want to use holistic medicine on a heart kitty....please,
          please, please do so while working with a qualified practitioner.
          As Shane said, there are many bad holistic vets out there. There
          are also some very talented ones. The same goes for MD's,
          DVM's, DDS's, etc. You must have a healthcare professional that you
          are comfortable with and trust.

          I'm not trying to push holistic medicine on anyone. I'm
          just trying to explain some of the theories to those who are
          interested in learning about it.
        • shelley
          I have had many dentals done on my cats over the years and not once have I had a vet do xrays first, in fact I have not heard of it being done. As for your
          Message 4 of 14 , May 29, 2004
          • 0 Attachment
            I have had many dentals done on my cats over the years and not once have I had a vet do xrays first, in fact I have not heard of it being done.

            As for your comment about quack holistic vets I think the same can be said for some allopathic vets out there.

            shelley
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: Shane Fox Luper
            To: 'William Draper' ; feline-heart@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Friday, May 28, 2004 5:32 PM
            Subject: RE: [FH] Holistic vs allopathic


            Hi Bill ( and everyone else who's been contributing to this topic)

            The last bit of this note that you wrote is interesting. I have been to many
            vets over the years, holistic and allopathic. More recently, I was referred
            to a holistic vet for one of our cats with teeth problems. This vet was one
            of a few holistic vets who does perform surgeries. And I knew our kitty
            would need teeth pulled. And knowing what I know with anesthesia-free teeth
            cleaning, I thought I knew a thing or two. Well, I didn't. This vet, a
            horrible quack, did ridiculous things to our cat. Have you heard of
            "Bio-kinetics", well he tried using this "gun" type thing that Chiropractors
            use on their patients on her for a "neck problems" he thought she had, only
            he touched his hand to the area on her back and held the gun to his own
            neck! He said it was working "THROUGH" him!!! My husband and I were
            disgusted really. The guy wound up pulling several teeth in the end and only
            giving her an anti-biotic shot -nothing orally, nor any pain meds. She was
            sick for a month with swollen glands that would not go down so we took her
            to our regular vet. In a nutshell, I learned that for proper tooth removal
            on a pet, you need to do dental x-rays in order to see everything and also,
            in order to remove the ROOT of the tooth! I was clueless about this, but I
            learned quickly. The quack vet never did x-rays and wound up leaving root
            which caused the swollen glands. So in addition to paying the quacks bill of
            $1000.00 we had to pay the other vet to correct the quack's mistake. It
            really chapped my hide, but now, at least I know.



            What it really boils down to for me is that I believe that with what I have
            experienced, there are some really good holistic vets and I know a few good
            ones) out there, and some real quacks that people should just stay away
            from.



            I.M.H.O.



            Shane





            _____

            From: William Draper [mailto:wedraper@...]
            Sent: Friday, May 28, 2004 10:29 AM
            To: feline-heart@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [FH] Holistic vs allopathic



            - "And I am sorry, Bill, but I must patently disagree with you and agree
            with Deena that many vets, GOOD vets, will prescribe for the symptom and not
            the problem"
            -- then they are practicing incorrectly. that is NOT the way we are trained
            to treat disease.

            - "We tried theophylline and made household changes--got rid of silica based
            litter, got a HEPA air purifier, etc. No help. He wanted to put her on
            prednisone. I'm sorry, but I won't take
            steroids and I will not put my cats on them"
            -- hmm, it would seem that this statement refutes my previous argument.
            however, steroids have been the "magic bullet" for many animals with many
            different diseases. for me it definitely won't be a first-line drug for
            most things (though it is essential in things like shock therapy and auto
            immune diseases), but i will probably adhere to the motto "never let an
            animal die without the benefit of steroids".

            - it has come to my attention that things i filed in my brain under "adjunct
            therapy" are actually pseudo-holistic remedies. things like omega fatty
            acids and taurine as nutritional supplements for certain diseases i agree
            with. my problem is people using herbal extracts with ingredients that make
            no sense. giving a cat with HCM a positive inotrope can not be a good idea.
            that goes against everything we know about the pathogenesis of the disease.
            however, giving an animal with an inflammatory problem omega fatty acids (as
            they can be incorporated into the cell membrane and replace the inflammatory
            precursors), now that makes sense to me. i WILL do some more reading into
            this, as it intrigues me. i reiterate that i am all for the best treatment
            options for my future clients. i just can't abide by the "my mom's best
            friend's hairstylist gave her cat substance A and it got over disease X".
            this is how holistic medicine seems to be propagate to me. we have had a
            few holistic vets come to school to give lectures, and they just don't
            impress me. their knowledge of basic disease processes is lacking, and they
            seem to have a standard remedy for every disease.

            bill
            dvm in 2005
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: Marjorie Blaine
            To: HCM
            Sent: Friday, May 28, 2004 3:54 AM
            Subject: [FH] Holistic vs allopathic


            Well, I suppose I'd like to throw my two cents into the fray. I've had
            cats
            since I was 6 years old--42 years now--and I also have a Master's Degree
            in
            Wildlife Biology which is not a veterinary degree but I have studied and
            taught human and animal anatomy and physiology and was accepted into vet
            school (more on that later). I've done research, understand about large
            sample sizes (one of my beefs is human studies which used 300 people but
            make gross generalizations). I've volunteered at a no-kill cat shelter
            for
            the past 7 years and seen all kinds of things. I've studied feline
            nutrition diligently the past several years. I'm not saying any of this
            to
            pat my own back but just so you'll know I'm not a novice cat person who
            has
            no idea about scientific research or veterinary science, etc.

            After feeding my cats Science Diet for years, vaccinating annually
            w/FVRCP,
            feleuk, and rabies and having lost a cat to vaccination site sarcoma, I
            have
            a little experience with this stuff. The ONLY treatment which seemed to
            truly help my cat was holistic. It gave us 4 months of good quality life
            with him that our oncologist and regular vet said we'd never have. I
            believe firmly in a high-quality diet (not Science Diet, Iams, Nutro, etc)
            and using holistic medicine knowing there are some cases where allopathic
            is
            necessary (eg my Max is on atenolol). I have a fabulous vet who practices
            both types of medicine altho she firmly believes holistic is the best way
            of
            treating an animal and human. Sarah mentions she likes to base treatment
            of
            her cat with a critical illness on scientific studies. Please correct me
            if
            I'm wrong but there are no definitive studies with large sample sizes that
            indicate atenolol is effective in cats. However, the majority of us use
            it
            to decrease the symptoms of this horrible disease. We know it won't cure
            them. I do agree there are holistic treatments which may work for humans
            but not animals--that's why you need a vet who KNOWS what they are doing
            when you are using holistic or homeopathic treatment. I would never
            undertake this on my own. I also don't believe there is always an
            "efficacious" way to deal with a particular illness. Genetically, we are
            all different and our bodies may react differently to different substances
            (same reason why I don't believe you can just throw estrogen at a
            peri-menopausal or menopausal woman--our hormone levels can be quite
            different and what one needs, another may not). And I am sorry, Bill, but
            I
            must patently disagree with you and agree with Deena that many vets, GOOD
            vets, will prescribe for the symptom and not the problem. Many good human
            doctors do the same. Example--I was working with a fantastic vet (I
            interviewed 20 vets before I settled on him--let's call him Dr. Mike). My
            elderly cat developed asthma. We tried theophylline and made household
            changes--got rid of silica based litter, got a HEPA air purifier, etc. No
            help. He wanted to put her on prednisone. I'm sorry, but I won't take
            steroids and I will not put my cats on them. He understood 150% and said,
            let's take this to the holistic vet (who is my current vet). We did;
            using
            herbs and a Standard Process supplement, my cat quit coughing--has not had
            an asthma attack in 5 years--and the first vet cannot believe how her
            lungs
            sound (quiet as can be) compared to how they started out sounding. Dr.
            Mike
            ( a top graduate of CSU by the way--a premier vet school) told me that
            sometimes you don't have a choice as much as you want to address the
            underlying cause. I am not saying they don't give it their best shot but
            even in advanced human medicine sometimes there's just no answer. He also
            told me that MOST vets have NO training on nutrition. I understand that
            now
            some veterinary schools are starting some nutrition training but anytime I
            hear a vet recommending Science Diet--forget it--he doesn't know about
            feline nutrition. Sorry....it's the truth. You can compare it to you
            eating good, whole, fresh foods (i.e. preparing meals from scratch with
            good
            ingredients) as opposed to eating Hamburger Helper with all of its
            preservatives.

            If you want some info about HCM cats that have been cured, you might want
            to
            check "The Whole Cat Journal". I don't have the volume here at work but
            can
            provide you with it or fax you the article. It provides names of
            veterinarians who have cured HCM with homeopathic medicine and how they
            did
            it and how, most definitely, it is NOT one size fits all. Bill, a truly
            great vet is open to using whatever modalities to treat their patients.
            Please, please, don't let vet school brainwash you. You can be an awesome
            allopathic vet (like Dr. Mike and my current vet) and still also practice
            holistic medicine. They can work together. I also don't vaccinate my
            cats
            anymore. My holistic vet said (and this was agreed with by Dr. Mike)
            "give
            them their FVRCP when babies--the first dose and the booster" and let
            their
            own immune system kick in after that. Of course we vaccinate children.
            But
            we don't vaccinate them ANNUALLY with the same thing year after year after
            year. And I promise you giving cats FVRCP, feleuk, AND rabies all at one
            time is severely compromising their immune system. I also must agree on
            switching cats from a poor quality, preservative enhanced commercial diet
            to
            a raw diet. The results are amazing. My holistic vet said it's one of
            the
            best treatments for IBD. And guess what? When I first started going to my
            holistic vet, she was not a proponent of raw diets for the same reason
            many
            mentioned in this group (salmonella). I provided her with a lot of
            literature but she was still skeptical. Then she went to a conference,
            joined an egroup on raw diets, began feeding her cats AND dogs raw and now
            she is a top proponent of raw diets. She has a 19 year old cat with
            diabetes at her clinic. Started feeding raw and was able to substantially
            reduce her insulin. However, if you don't want to feed raw (properly
            supplemented, of course), you can either lightly cook the meats OR you can
            feed one of the higher quality canned foods made from USDA approved human
            grade meats (e.g. Wellness or Azmira to name only two). For anyone who is
            interested, there is a great book entitled "The Nature of Animal Healing"
            written by a traditionally trained vet, Dr. Martin Goldstein. It tells of
            his path to natural feeding and treatment. I highly recommend it for
            aspiring vets. AAFCO does not ensure optimum nutrition. Some treats
            state
            they meet AAFCO but I wouldn't feed my cat a diet of them. Many AAFCO
            stamped foods contain SALT. Why? Cats do not need a diet supplemented
            with
            salt. And for our HCM cats, that's the last thing we need. But your
            point
            is well taken that it sets some sort of standard for those who don't
            really
            look at feline nutrition.

            I know how vets are trained. I was accepted into vet school but spent a
            summer working with a vet and I just didn't have the emotional strength at
            21 to deal with the people who abused animals, animals being euthanized,
            cats being declawed, etc. I didn't think I could tolerate alot of what
            vets
            see--maybe I could have. So I will say, I do know the courses you have to
            take and as I've said, I've taught human and animal A&P at the college
            level. Of course vet students study when and why disease starts. But
            sometimes I think there's a broader picture then just focusing on a
            particular organ (for instance) which might be showing symptoms of
            illness.
            For non-genetic diseases, I think the bigger picture goes to the immune
            system--when it is in balance and maximized, the body systems are as well.
            Since I started treating my own body better and more holistically--eating
            whole, natural foods--no colds, no flu, no illnesses; I'm in much better
            physical shape at 48 than probably 90% of 20 year olds and definitely
            better
            than I was when I was younger. My cats are the same--oh the amazing
            improvement in their coats, their teeth, their health--everything since we
            changed to a better diet and started using holistic supplements. We
            rescued
            our oldest cat at 4 weeks and she has travelled the world with us and is
            now
            20; her blood work just done showed everything in normal range and she is
            just steaming along (knock on wood) maintaining her lifelong weight, eats
            right, has the stool of a young cat--she's amazing. Since she has lived
            longer than any other cat I've had and she was switched to a more holistic
            way of life when she was 10, I have to believe we're doing something
            right.

            My main point in all of this is--we each need to do what we feel is best
            for
            our beloved companions. If you only want to treat your cat
            allopathicly--please, do; I respect that 100% and I don't feel you are
            less
            concerned about your cat than I am about mine. But I have felt in reading
            many threads that those of us who use holistic or homeopathic treatments
            are
            thought to be using something akin to voodoo and we must not really care
            about our cats if we are not treating them with the tried and true
            methods.
            Let's just be open-minded to each other. I doubt very seriously that Mr.
            Pepe would have lived as long with as good a quality of life if it weren't
            for his treatment. And my Maxie just had his check up (he was diagnosed
            9/03) and his echo was stable; his bp, heart rate, EKG, blood work, xray
            all
            "beautiful". We are blessed and not only do I thank my wonderful holistic
            vet and cardiologist who work together but I thank God because he gave
            these
            people these talents.

            BTW, Bill, even my cardiologist who does not practice holistic medicine,
            has
            worked fully with my holistic vet and supported all the holistic
            treatments
            we give Max; likewise, my holistic vet was 100% supportive of adding
            atenolol. Great vets--open-minded.

            Best of luck to you as you pursue your career--I know you must be very
            dedicated to helping animals to have chosen this path--it is truly a
            career
            of sacrifice of self on behalf of animal companions. And I pray all of
            you
            with HCM cats will have so many many more joyous moments with them.

            Marjorie
            Sitka, Teddi, Gus, & Max




            Your reply will go to the author of this message. If you feel your reply
            will benefit the entire group, please change the "To:" line to
            feline-heart@yahoogroups.com


            Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
            ADVERTISEMENT





            ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
            --
            Yahoo! Groups Links

            a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/feline-heart/

            b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            feline-heart-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

            c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.




            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



            Your reply will go to the author of this message. If you feel your reply
            will benefit the entire group, please change the "To:" line to
            feline-heart@yahoogroups.com






            Yahoo! Groups Sponsor



            ADVERTISEMENT

            <http://rd.yahoo.com/SIG=129tes73g/M=295196.4901138.6071305.3001176/D=groups
            /S=1707296857:HM/EXP=1085855402/A=2128215/R=0/SIG=10se96mf6/*http:/companion
            .yahoo.com> click here



            <http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=295196.4901138.6071305.3001176/D=groups/S=
            :HM/A=2128215/rand=841112189>



            _____

            Yahoo! Groups Links

            * To visit your group on the web, go to:
            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/feline-heart/

            * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            feline-heart-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            <mailto:feline-heart-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>

            * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
            <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service.



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



            Your reply will go to the author of this message. If you feel your reply will benefit the entire group, please change the "To:" line to feline-heart@yahoogroups.com


            Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
            ADVERTISEMENT





            ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
            Yahoo! Groups Links

            a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/feline-heart/

            b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            feline-heart-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

            c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Iben
            Yep, you re right, I am talking about it in it s homeopathic form as I mentioned I give to Nadia. My vet is very well trained in holistic and traditional
            Message 5 of 14 , May 29, 2004
            • 0 Attachment
              Yep, you're right, I am talking about it in it's homeopathic form as I mentioned I give to Nadia. My vet is very well trained in holistic and traditional medicine and I believe highly in her. She is known in all Northern Europe for her skills.

              Iben & Nadia
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Deena
              To: feline-heart@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Saturday, May 29, 2004 1:27 PM
              Subject: Re: [FH] Hawthorn (was Holistic vs allopathic)


              --- In feline-heart@yahoogroups.com, "William Draper"
              <wedraper@e...> wrote: i have know idea what crategus is.
              >
              Hey Bill & others,

              I have my friendly face on...so don't be afraid to keep reading.

              I think she's talking about the homeopathic version of hawthorn.
              I understand your concern regarding hawthorn, since logic indicates
              it should be harmful. Yet, it gets listed in pretty much every
              holistic books as being beneficial for heart kitties.

              This is how it was explained to me by Mary Tilford DVM, the wife of
              Greg Tilford the "Herbs for Pets" guy, when I asked the same
              question. I'm paraphrasing here, so don't quote me. "When
              you single out the active ingredient in hawthorn, it may appear
              harmful for HCM. But when you use it in it's whole form, it seems
              to act as a very strong heart conditioner and BP regulator. Mother
              nature builds in these checks & balances that sciences is unable to
              duplicate in a lab."

              This is why I always try to use a whole food supplement rather than
              just the active ingredient, if possible. For example, egg whites
              are known to deplete biotin. But when you include the yoke & shell,
              eggs provide the #1 bioavailable food for a cat. So I try to always
              feed whole foods figuring if Mother Nature didn't want wolves to eat
              egg whites, she would have taught them how to use an egg separator.
              Mary Tilford seemed very approachable when I talked to her and may
              take your call. I'm sure she can explain this better than I.

              Based on my personal experience with hawthorn, I found it's one of
              the herbs you should NOT be fooling around with unless instucted by
              a qualified practitioner. Especially if a cat has severe heart
              disease. Initially, Mr Pepe tested very negative to hawthorn, but
              later tested very strong. What caused the change? My guess is that
              when his CHF was very severe, whatever hawthorne does would have
              made him worse. When he got the fluid under control and his
              breathing was stable, his heart was able to reap the benefit of
              hawthorne, so it tested "strongly beneficial" for him.

              This is a perfect example of why you do not want to treat heart
              kitties holistically based on one persons experience or by reading
              one book. I hear your frustration with this practice. My mother-in-
              law swears that if it appears in Ladies Home Journal that it HAS to
              be medical fact. For holistic treatment to be effective (and safe),
              it MUST be personalized to the individual patient's needs. Because
              our cells change on a daily basis, theoretically treatments can
              change too.

              If you want to use holistic medicine on a heart kitty....please,
              please, please do so while working with a qualified practitioner.
              As Shane said, there are many bad holistic vets out there. There
              are also some very talented ones. The same goes for MD's,
              DVM's, DDS's, etc. You must have a healthcare professional that you
              are comfortable with and trust.

              I'm not trying to push holistic medicine on anyone. I'm
              just trying to explain some of the theories to those who are
              interested in learning about it.




              Your reply will go to the author of this message. If you feel your reply will benefit the entire group, please change the "To:" line to feline-heart@yahoogroups.com


              Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
              ADVERTISEMENT





              ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
              Yahoo! Groups Links

              a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/feline-heart/

              b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
              feline-heart-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

              c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Shane Fox Luper
              I m definitely in agreement with you there. I would like to say that, even though I am not a vet, I do know from several veterinarians now that the only way to
              Message 6 of 14 , May 29, 2004
              • 0 Attachment
                I'm definitely in agreement with you there.



                I would like to say that, even though I am not a vet, I do know from several
                veterinarians now that the only way to appropriately remove teeth is to take
                x-rays prior to the removal. Honestly, I thought the same thing as you do,
                but have asked other vets now, and one being a certified boarded vet
                dentist too and they both said "Only appropriately done with x-rays", so I
                think they should know.



                Shane



                _____

                From: shelley [mailto:saknibbs@...]
                Sent: Saturday, May 29, 2004 6:13 AM
                To: 'William Draper'; feline-heart@yahoogroups.com; Shane Fox Luper
                Subject: Re: [FH] Holistic vs allopathic



                I have had many dentals done on my cats over the years and not once have I
                had a vet do xrays first, in fact I have not heard of it being done.

                As for your comment about quack holistic vets I think the same can be said
                for some allopathic vets out there.

                shelley
                ----- Original Message -----
                From: Shane Fox Luper
                To: 'William Draper' ; feline-heart@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Friday, May 28, 2004 5:32 PM
                Subject: RE: [FH] Holistic vs allopathic


                Hi Bill ( and everyone else who's been contributing to this topic)

                The last bit of this note that you wrote is interesting. I have been to
                many
                vets over the years, holistic and allopathic. More recently, I was
                referred
                to a holistic vet for one of our cats with teeth problems. This vet was
                one
                of a few holistic vets who does perform surgeries. And I knew our kitty
                would need teeth pulled. And knowing what I know with anesthesia-free
                teeth
                cleaning, I thought I knew a thing or two. Well, I didn't. This vet, a
                horrible quack, did ridiculous things to our cat. Have you heard of
                "Bio-kinetics", well he tried using this "gun" type thing that
                Chiropractors
                use on their patients on her for a "neck problems" he thought she had,
                only
                he touched his hand to the area on her back and held the gun to his own
                neck! He said it was working "THROUGH" him!!! My husband and I were
                disgusted really. The guy wound up pulling several teeth in the end and
                only
                giving her an anti-biotic shot -nothing orally, nor any pain meds. She was
                sick for a month with swollen glands that would not go down so we took her
                to our regular vet. In a nutshell, I learned that for proper tooth removal
                on a pet, you need to do dental x-rays in order to see everything and
                also,
                in order to remove the ROOT of the tooth! I was clueless about this, but I
                learned quickly. The quack vet never did x-rays and wound up leaving root
                which caused the swollen glands. So in addition to paying the quacks bill
                of
                $1000.00 we had to pay the other vet to correct the quack's mistake. It
                really chapped my hide, but now, at least I know.



                What it really boils down to for me is that I believe that with what I
                have
                experienced, there are some really good holistic vets and I know a few
                good
                ones) out there, and some real quacks that people should just stay away
                from.



                I.M.H.O.



                Shane





                _____

                From: William Draper [mailto:wedraper@...]
                Sent: Friday, May 28, 2004 10:29 AM
                To: feline-heart@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [FH] Holistic vs allopathic



                - "And I am sorry, Bill, but I must patently disagree with you and agree
                with Deena that many vets, GOOD vets, will prescribe for the symptom and
                not
                the problem"
                -- then they are practicing incorrectly. that is NOT the way we are
                trained
                to treat disease.

                - "We tried theophylline and made household changes--got rid of silica
                based
                litter, got a HEPA air purifier, etc. No help. He wanted to put her on
                prednisone. I'm sorry, but I won't take
                steroids and I will not put my cats on them"
                -- hmm, it would seem that this statement refutes my previous argument.
                however, steroids have been the "magic bullet" for many animals with many
                different diseases. for me it definitely won't be a first-line drug for
                most things (though it is essential in things like shock therapy and auto
                immune diseases), but i will probably adhere to the motto "never let an
                animal die without the benefit of steroids".

                - it has come to my attention that things i filed in my brain under
                "adjunct
                therapy" are actually pseudo-holistic remedies. things like omega fatty
                acids and taurine as nutritional supplements for certain diseases i agree
                with. my problem is people using herbal extracts with ingredients that
                make
                no sense. giving a cat with HCM a positive inotrope can not be a good
                idea.
                that goes against everything we know about the pathogenesis of the
                disease.
                however, giving an animal with an inflammatory problem omega fatty acids
                (as
                they can be incorporated into the cell membrane and replace the
                inflammatory
                precursors), now that makes sense to me. i WILL do some more reading into
                this, as it intrigues me. i reiterate that i am all for the best
                treatment
                options for my future clients. i just can't abide by the "my mom's best
                friend's hairstylist gave her cat substance A and it got over disease X".
                this is how holistic medicine seems to be propagate to me. we have had a
                few holistic vets come to school to give lectures, and they just don't
                impress me. their knowledge of basic disease processes is lacking, and
                they
                seem to have a standard remedy for every disease.

                bill
                dvm in 2005
                ----- Original Message -----
                From: Marjorie Blaine
                To: HCM
                Sent: Friday, May 28, 2004 3:54 AM
                Subject: [FH] Holistic vs allopathic


                Well, I suppose I'd like to throw my two cents into the fray. I've had
                cats
                since I was 6 years old--42 years now--and I also have a Master's Degree
                in
                Wildlife Biology which is not a veterinary degree but I have studied and
                taught human and animal anatomy and physiology and was accepted into vet
                school (more on that later). I've done research, understand about large
                sample sizes (one of my beefs is human studies which used 300 people but
                make gross generalizations). I've volunteered at a no-kill cat shelter
                for
                the past 7 years and seen all kinds of things. I've studied feline
                nutrition diligently the past several years. I'm not saying any of this
                to
                pat my own back but just so you'll know I'm not a novice cat person who
                has
                no idea about scientific research or veterinary science, etc.

                After feeding my cats Science Diet for years, vaccinating annually
                w/FVRCP,
                feleuk, and rabies and having lost a cat to vaccination site sarcoma, I
                have
                a little experience with this stuff. The ONLY treatment which seemed to
                truly help my cat was holistic. It gave us 4 months of good quality
                life
                with him that our oncologist and regular vet said we'd never have. I
                believe firmly in a high-quality diet (not Science Diet, Iams, Nutro,
                etc)
                and using holistic medicine knowing there are some cases where
                allopathic
                is
                necessary (eg my Max is on atenolol). I have a fabulous vet who
                practices
                both types of medicine altho she firmly believes holistic is the best
                way
                of
                treating an animal and human. Sarah mentions she likes to base
                treatment
                of
                her cat with a critical illness on scientific studies. Please correct
                me
                if
                I'm wrong but there are no definitive studies with large sample sizes
                that
                indicate atenolol is effective in cats. However, the majority of us use
                it
                to decrease the symptoms of this horrible disease. We know it won't
                cure
                them. I do agree there are holistic treatments which may work for
                humans
                but not animals--that's why you need a vet who KNOWS what they are doing
                when you are using holistic or homeopathic treatment. I would never
                undertake this on my own. I also don't believe there is always an
                "efficacious" way to deal with a particular illness. Genetically, we
                are
                all different and our bodies may react differently to different
                substances
                (same reason why I don't believe you can just throw estrogen at a
                peri-menopausal or menopausal woman--our hormone levels can be quite
                different and what one needs, another may not). And I am sorry, Bill,
                but
                I
                must patently disagree with you and agree with Deena that many vets,
                GOOD
                vets, will prescribe for the symptom and not the problem. Many good
                human
                doctors do the same. Example--I was working with a fantastic vet (I
                interviewed 20 vets before I settled on him--let's call him Dr. Mike).
                My
                elderly cat developed asthma. We tried theophylline and made household
                changes--got rid of silica based litter, got a HEPA air purifier, etc.
                No
                help. He wanted to put her on prednisone. I'm sorry, but I won't take
                steroids and I will not put my cats on them. He understood 150% and
                said,
                let's take this to the holistic vet (who is my current vet). We did;
                using
                herbs and a Standard Process supplement, my cat quit coughing--has not
                had
                an asthma attack in 5 years--and the first vet cannot believe how her
                lungs
                sound (quiet as can be) compared to how they started out sounding. Dr.
                Mike
                ( a top graduate of CSU by the way--a premier vet school) told me that
                sometimes you don't have a choice as much as you want to address the
                underlying cause. I am not saying they don't give it their best shot
                but
                even in advanced human medicine sometimes there's just no answer. He
                also
                told me that MOST vets have NO training on nutrition. I understand that
                now
                some veterinary schools are starting some nutrition training but anytime
                I
                hear a vet recommending Science Diet--forget it--he doesn't know about
                feline nutrition. Sorry....it's the truth. You can compare it to you
                eating good, whole, fresh foods (i.e. preparing meals from scratch with
                good
                ingredients) as opposed to eating Hamburger Helper with all of its
                preservatives.

                If you want some info about HCM cats that have been cured, you might
                want
                to
                check "The Whole Cat Journal". I don't have the volume here at work but
                can
                provide you with it or fax you the article. It provides names of
                veterinarians who have cured HCM with homeopathic medicine and how they
                did
                it and how, most definitely, it is NOT one size fits all. Bill, a truly
                great vet is open to using whatever modalities to treat their patients.
                Please, please, don't let vet school brainwash you. You can be an
                awesome
                allopathic vet (like Dr. Mike and my current vet) and still also
                practice
                holistic medicine. They can work together. I also don't vaccinate my
                cats
                anymore. My holistic vet said (and this was agreed with by Dr. Mike)
                "give
                them their FVRCP when babies--the first dose and the booster" and let
                their
                own immune system kick in after that. Of course we vaccinate children.
                But
                we don't vaccinate them ANNUALLY with the same thing year after year
                after
                year. And I promise you giving cats FVRCP, feleuk, AND rabies all at
                one
                time is severely compromising their immune system. I also must agree on
                switching cats from a poor quality, preservative enhanced commercial
                diet
                to
                a raw diet. The results are amazing. My holistic vet said it's one of
                the
                best treatments for IBD. And guess what? When I first started going to
                my
                holistic vet, she was not a proponent of raw diets for the same reason
                many
                mentioned in this group (salmonella). I provided her with a lot of
                literature but she was still skeptical. Then she went to a conference,
                joined an egroup on raw diets, began feeding her cats AND dogs raw and
                now
                she is a top proponent of raw diets. She has a 19 year old cat with
                diabetes at her clinic. Started feeding raw and was able to
                substantially
                reduce her insulin. However, if you don't want to feed raw (properly
                supplemented, of course), you can either lightly cook the meats OR you
                can
                feed one of the higher quality canned foods made from USDA approved
                human
                grade meats (e.g. Wellness or Azmira to name only two). For anyone who
                is
                interested, there is a great book entitled "The Nature of Animal
                Healing"
                written by a traditionally trained vet, Dr. Martin Goldstein. It tells
                of
                his path to natural feeding and treatment. I highly recommend it for
                aspiring vets. AAFCO does not ensure optimum nutrition. Some treats
                state
                they meet AAFCO but I wouldn't feed my cat a diet of them. Many AAFCO
                stamped foods contain SALT. Why? Cats do not need a diet supplemented
                with
                salt. And for our HCM cats, that's the last thing we need. But your
                point
                is well taken that it sets some sort of standard for those who don't
                really
                look at feline nutrition.

                I know how vets are trained. I was accepted into vet school but spent a
                summer working with a vet and I just didn't have the emotional strength
                at
                21 to deal with the people who abused animals, animals being euthanized,
                cats being declawed, etc. I didn't think I could tolerate alot of what
                vets
                see--maybe I could have. So I will say, I do know the courses you have
                to
                take and as I've said, I've taught human and animal A&P at the college
                level. Of course vet students study when and why disease starts. But
                sometimes I think there's a broader picture then just focusing on a
                particular organ (for instance) which might be showing symptoms of
                illness.
                For non-genetic diseases, I think the bigger picture goes to the immune
                system--when it is in balance and maximized, the body systems are as
                well.
                Since I started treating my own body better and more
                holistically--eating
                whole, natural foods--no colds, no flu, no illnesses; I'm in much better
                physical shape at 48 than probably 90% of 20 year olds and definitely
                better
                than I was when I was younger. My cats are the same--oh the amazing
                improvement in their coats, their teeth, their health--everything since
                we
                changed to a better diet and started using holistic supplements. We
                rescued
                our oldest cat at 4 weeks and she has travelled the world with us and is
                now
                20; her blood work just done showed everything in normal range and she
                is
                just steaming along (knock on wood) maintaining her lifelong weight,
                eats
                right, has the stool of a young cat--she's amazing. Since she has lived
                longer than any other cat I've had and she was switched to a more
                holistic
                way of life when she was 10, I have to believe we're doing something
                right.

                My main point in all of this is--we each need to do what we feel is best
                for
                our beloved companions. If you only want to treat your cat
                allopathicly--please, do; I respect that 100% and I don't feel you are
                less
                concerned about your cat than I am about mine. But I have felt in
                reading
                many threads that those of us who use holistic or homeopathic treatments
                are
                thought to be using something akin to voodoo and we must not really care
                about our cats if we are not treating them with the tried and true
                methods.
                Let's just be open-minded to each other. I doubt very seriously that Mr.
                Pepe would have lived as long with as good a quality of life if it
                weren't
                for his treatment. And my Maxie just had his check up (he was diagnosed
                9/03) and his echo was stable; his bp, heart rate, EKG, blood work, xray
                all
                "beautiful". We are blessed and not only do I thank my wonderful
                holistic
                vet and cardiologist who work together but I thank God because he gave
                these
                people these talents.

                BTW, Bill, even my cardiologist who does not practice holistic medicine,
                has
                worked fully with my holistic vet and supported all the holistic
                treatments
                we give Max; likewise, my holistic vet was 100% supportive of adding
                atenolol. Great vets--open-minded.

                Best of luck to you as you pursue your career--I know you must be very
                dedicated to helping animals to have chosen this path--it is truly a
                career
                of sacrifice of self on behalf of animal companions. And I pray all of
                you
                with HCM cats will have so many many more joyous moments with them.

                Marjorie
                Sitka, Teddi, Gus, & Max




                Your reply will go to the author of this message. If you feel your reply
                will benefit the entire group, please change the "To:" line to
                feline-heart@yahoogroups.com


                Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                ADVERTISEMENT






                ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
                --
                Yahoo! Groups Links

                a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/feline-heart/

                b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                feline-heart-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

                c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                Service.




                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                Your reply will go to the author of this message. If you feel your reply
                will benefit the entire group, please change the "To:" line to
                feline-heart@yahoogroups.com






                Yahoo! Groups Sponsor



                ADVERTISEMENT


                <http://rd.yahoo.com/SIG=129tes73g/M=295196.4901138.6071305.3001176/D=groups

                /S=1707296857:HM/EXP=1085855402/A=2128215/R=0/SIG=10se96mf6/*http:/companion
                .yahoo.com> click here




                <http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=295196.4901138.6071305.3001176/D=groups/S=
                :HM/A=2128215/rand=841112189>



                _____

                Yahoo! Groups Links

                * To visit your group on the web, go to:
                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/feline-heart/

                * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                feline-heart-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                <mailto:feline-heart-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>

                * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
                <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service.



                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                Your reply will go to the author of this message. If you feel your reply
                will benefit the entire group, please change the "To:" line to
                feline-heart@yahoogroups.com


                Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                ADVERTISEMENT





                ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
                --
                Yahoo! Groups Links

                a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/feline-heart/

                b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                feline-heart-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

                c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.




                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                Your reply will go to the author of this message. If you feel your reply
                will benefit the entire group, please change the "To:" line to
                feline-heart@yahoogroups.com






                Yahoo! Groups Sponsor



                ADVERTISEMENT

                <http://rd.yahoo.com/SIG=1290souk7/M=295196.4901138.6071305.3001176/D=groups
                /S=1707296857:HM/EXP=1085922882/A=2128215/R=0/SIG=10se96mf6/*http:/companion
                .yahoo.com> click here



                <http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=295196.4901138.6071305.3001176/D=groups/S=
                :HM/A=2128215/rand=728376846>



                _____

                Yahoo! Groups Links

                * To visit your group on the web, go to:
                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/feline-heart/

                * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                feline-heart-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                <mailto:feline-heart-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>

                * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
                <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service.



                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Michelle Waters
                Hi everyone, I m on digest so someone else may have said this but I think that with either allopathic or holistic medicine it really depends on the
                Message 7 of 14 , May 29, 2004
                • 0 Attachment
                  Hi everyone,

                  I'm on digest so someone else may have said this but I think that with either allopathic or holistic medicine it really depends on the practitioner. I had a horrible experience with a holistic vet many years ago, but I've also been to allopathic vets who were incompetent. Fortunately through trial and error we have great vets now, and I have nothing but the highest respect for every member of our "team": our holistic vet, our internist and our surgeon. With what I've learned over the past year I wouldn't face a serious illness in a cat without having a team approach like this.

                  Michelle



                  >This vet, a
                  >horrible quack, did ridiculous things to our cat. Have you heard of
                  >"Bio-kinetics", well he tried using this "gun" type thing that Chiropractors
                  >use on their patients on her for a "neck problems" he thought she had, only
                  >he touched his hand to the area on her back and held the gun to his own
                  >neck! He said it was working "THROUGH" him!!! My husband and I were
                  >disgusted really. >
                  >What it really boils down to for me is that I believe that with what I have
                  >experienced, there are some really good holistic vets and I know a few good
                  >ones) out there, and some real quacks that people should just stay away
                  >from.



                  ____________________________________________________________
                  Find what you are looking for with the Lycos Yellow Pages
                  http://r.lycos.com/r/yp_emailfooter/http://yellowpages.lycos.com/default.asp?SRC=lycos10
                • Michelle Waters
                  Hi Deena and all, If you go to www.holisticat.com and go into the archives there is an interesting discussion about Hawthorn, between Mary Tilford the
                  Message 8 of 14 , May 29, 2004
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Hi Deena and all,

                    If you go to www.holisticat.com and go into the archives there is an interesting discussion about Hawthorn, between Mary Tilford the herbalist and Susan Wynn, DVM, who is a holistic vet. I read it a while ago but the jist was that they were disagreeing whether Hawthorn should be used in HCM cats. Susan Wynn felt that no, it should not be used because it could cause the heart to beat too strongly. At any rate, I agree with you about the need to use herbs under the guidance of an experienced practitioner.

                    Michelle

                    >
                    >I think she's talking about the homeopathic version of hawthorn.
                    >I understand your concern regarding hawthorn, since logic indicates
                    >it should be harmful. Yet, it gets listed in pretty much every
                    >holistic books as being beneficial for heart kitties.
                    >
                    >This is how it was explained to me by Mary Tilford DVM, the wife of
                    >Greg Tilford the "Herbs for Pets" guy, when I asked the same
                    >question. I'm paraphrasing here, so don't quote me. "When
                    >you single out the active ingredient in hawthorn, it may appear
                    >harmful for HCM. But when you use it in it's whole form, it seems
                    >to act as a very strong heart conditioner and BP regulator. Mother
                    >nature builds in these checks & balances that sciences is unable to
                    >duplicate in a lab."
                    >
                    >This is why I always try to use a whole food supplement rather than
                    >just the active ingredient, if possible. For example, egg whites
                    >are known to deplete biotin. But when you include the yoke & shell,
                    >eggs provide the #1 bioavailable food for a cat. So I try to always
                    >feed whole foods figuring if Mother Nature didn't want wolves to eat
                    >egg whites, she would have taught them how to use an egg separator.
                    >Mary Tilford seemed very approachable when I talked to her and may
                    >take your call. I'm sure she can explain this better than I.
                    >
                    >Based on my personal experience with hawthorn, I found it's one of
                    >the herbs you should NOT be fooling around with unless instucted by
                    >a qualified practitioner. Especially if a cat has severe heart
                    >disease. Initially, Mr Pepe tested very negative to hawthorn, but
                    >later tested very strong. What caused the change? My guess is that
                    >when his CHF was very severe, whatever hawthorne does would have
                    >made him worse. When he got the fluid under control and his
                    >breathing was stable, his heart was able to reap the benefit of
                    >hawthorne, so it tested "strongly beneficial" for him.
                    >
                    >This is a perfect example of why you do not want to treat heart
                    >kitties holistically based on one persons experience or by reading
                    >one book. I hear your frustration with this practice. My mother-in-
                    >law swears that if it appears in Ladies Home Journal that it HAS to
                    >be medical fact. For holistic treatment to be effective (and safe),
                    >it MUST be personalized to the individual patient's needs. Because
                    >our cells change on a daily basis, theoretically treatments can
                    >change too.
                    >
                    >If you want to use holistic medicine on a heart kitty....please,
                    >please, please do so while working with a qualified practitioner.
                    >As Shane said, there are many bad holistic vets out there. There
                    >are also some very talented ones. The same goes for MD's,
                    >DVM's, DDS's, etc. You must have a healthcare professional that you
                    >are comfortable with and trust.
                    >
                    >I'm not trying to push holistic medicine on anyone. I'm
                    >just trying to explain some of the theories to those who are
                    >interested in learning about it.
                    >


                    ____________________________________________________________
                    Find what you are looking for with the Lycos Yellow Pages
                    http://r.lycos.com/r/yp_emailfooter/http://yellowpages.lycos.com/default.asp?SRC=lycos10
                  • William Draper
                    - So in addition to paying the quacks bill of $1000.00 we had to pay the other vet to correct the quack s mistake -- you ought to contact your state vet
                    Message 9 of 14 , May 29, 2004
                    • 0 Attachment
                      - "So in addition to paying the quacks bill of $1000.00 we had to pay the other vet to correct the quack's mistake"
                      -- you ought to contact your state vet board and the better business bureau. this is bordering on malpractice in my opinion

                      bill
                      dvm in 2005
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: Shane Fox Luper
                      To: 'William Draper' ; feline-heart@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Friday, May 28, 2004 8:32 PM
                      Subject: RE: [FH] Holistic vs allopathic


                      Hi Bill ( and everyone else who's been contributing to this topic)

                      The last bit of this note that you wrote is interesting. I have been to many vets over the years, holistic and allopathic. More recently, I was referred to a holistic vet for one of our cats with teeth problems. This vet was one of a few holistic vets who does perform surgeries. And I knew our kitty would need teeth pulled. And knowing what I know with anesthesia-free teeth cleaning, I thought I knew a thing or two. Well, I didn't. This vet, a horrible quack, did ridiculous things to our cat. Have you heard of "Bio-kinetics", well he tried using this "gun" type thing that Chiropractors use on their patients on her for a "neck problems" he thought she had, only he touched his hand to the area on her back and held the gun to his own neck! He said it was working "THROUGH" him!!! My husband and I were disgusted really. The guy wound up pulling several teeth in the end and only giving her an anti-biotic shot -nothing orally, nor any pain meds. She was sick for a month with swollen glands that would not go down so we took her to our regular vet. In a nutshell, I learned that for proper tooth removal on a pet, you need to do dental x-rays in order to see everything and also, in order to remove the ROOT of the tooth! I was clueless about this, but I learned quickly. The quack vet never did x-rays and wound up leaving root which caused the swollen glands. So in addition to paying the quacks bill of $1000.00 we had to pay the other vet to correct the quack's mistake. It really chapped my hide, but now, at least I know.



                      What it really boils down to for me is that I believe that with what I have experienced, there are some really good holistic vets and I know a few good ones) out there, and some real quacks that people should just stay away from.



                      I.M.H.O.



                      Shane






                      ------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                      From: William Draper [mailto:wedraper@...]
                      Sent: Friday, May 28, 2004 10:29 AM
                      To: feline-heart@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: Re: [FH] Holistic vs allopathic



                      - "And I am sorry, Bill, but I must patently disagree with you and agree with Deena that many vets, GOOD vets, will prescribe for the symptom and not the problem"
                      -- then they are practicing incorrectly. that is NOT the way we are trained to treat disease.

                      - "We tried theophylline and made household changes--got rid of silica based litter, got a HEPA air purifier, etc. No help. He wanted to put her on prednisone. I'm sorry, but I won't take
                      steroids and I will not put my cats on them"
                      -- hmm, it would seem that this statement refutes my previous argument. however, steroids have been the "magic bullet" for many animals with many different diseases. for me it definitely won't be a first-line drug for most things (though it is essential in things like shock therapy and auto immune diseases), but i will probably adhere to the motto "never let an animal die without the benefit of steroids".

                      - it has come to my attention that things i filed in my brain under "adjunct therapy" are actually pseudo-holistic remedies. things like omega fatty acids and taurine as nutritional supplements for certain diseases i agree with. my problem is people using herbal extracts with ingredients that make no sense. giving a cat with HCM a positive inotrope can not be a good idea. that goes against everything we know about the pathogenesis of the disease. however, giving an animal with an inflammatory problem omega fatty acids (as they can be incorporated into the cell membrane and replace the inflammatory precursors), now that makes sense to me. i WILL do some more reading into this, as it intrigues me. i reiterate that i am all for the best treatment options for my future clients. i just can't abide by the "my mom's best friend's hairstylist gave her cat substance A and it got over disease X". this is how holistic medicine seems to be propagate to me. we have had a few holistic vets come to school to give lectures, and they just don't impress me. their knowledge of basic disease processes is lacking, and they seem to have a standard remedy for every disease.

                      bill
                      dvm in 2005
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: Marjorie Blaine
                      To: HCM
                      Sent: Friday, May 28, 2004 3:54 AM
                      Subject: [FH] Holistic vs allopathic


                      Well, I suppose I'd like to throw my two cents into the fray. I've had cats
                      since I was 6 years old--42 years now--and I also have a Master's Degree in
                      Wildlife Biology which is not a veterinary degree but I have studied and
                      taught human and animal anatomy and physiology and was accepted into vet
                      school (more on that later). I've done research, understand about large
                      sample sizes (one of my beefs is human studies which used 300 people but
                      make gross generalizations). I've volunteered at a no-kill cat shelter for
                      the past 7 years and seen all kinds of things. I've studied feline
                      nutrition diligently the past several years. I'm not saying any of this to
                      pat my own back but just so you'll know I'm not a novice cat person who has
                      no idea about scientific research or veterinary science, etc.

                      After feeding my cats Science Diet for years, vaccinating annually w/FVRCP,
                      feleuk, and rabies and having lost a cat to vaccination site sarcoma, I have
                      a little experience with this stuff. The ONLY treatment which seemed to
                      truly help my cat was holistic. It gave us 4 months of good quality life
                      with him that our oncologist and regular vet said we'd never have. I
                      believe firmly in a high-quality diet (not Science Diet, Iams, Nutro, etc)
                      and using holistic medicine knowing there are some cases where allopathic is
                      necessary (eg my Max is on atenolol). I have a fabulous vet who practices
                      both types of medicine altho she firmly believes holistic is the best way of
                      treating an animal and human. Sarah mentions she likes to base treatment of
                      her cat with a critical illness on scientific studies. Please correct me if
                      I'm wrong but there are no definitive studies with large sample sizes that
                      indicate atenolol is effective in cats. However, the majority of us use it
                      to decrease the symptoms of this horrible disease. We know it won't cure
                      them. I do agree there are holistic treatments which may work for humans
                      but not animals--that's why you need a vet who KNOWS what they are doing
                      when you are using holistic or homeopathic treatment. I would never
                      undertake this on my own. I also don't believe there is always an
                      "efficacious" way to deal with a particular illness. Genetically, we are
                      all different and our bodies may react differently to different substances
                      (same reason why I don't believe you can just throw estrogen at a
                      peri-menopausal or menopausal woman--our hormone levels can be quite
                      different and what one needs, another may not). And I am sorry, Bill, but I
                      must patently disagree with you and agree with Deena that many vets, GOOD
                      vets, will prescribe for the symptom and not the problem. Many good human
                      doctors do the same. Example--I was working with a fantastic vet (I
                      interviewed 20 vets before I settled on him--let's call him Dr. Mike). My
                      elderly cat developed asthma. We tried theophylline and made household
                      changes--got rid of silica based litter, got a HEPA air purifier, etc. No
                      help. He wanted to put her on prednisone. I'm sorry, but I won't take
                      steroids and I will not put my cats on them. He understood 150% and said,
                      let's take this to the holistic vet (who is my current vet). We did; using
                      herbs and a Standard Process supplement, my cat quit coughing--has not had
                      an asthma attack in 5 years--and the first vet cannot believe how her lungs
                      sound (quiet as can be) compared to how they started out sounding. Dr. Mike
                      ( a top graduate of CSU by the way--a premier vet school) told me that
                      sometimes you don't have a choice as much as you want to address the
                      underlying cause. I am not saying they don't give it their best shot but
                      even in advanced human medicine sometimes there's just no answer. He also
                      told me that MOST vets have NO training on nutrition. I understand that now
                      some veterinary schools are starting some nutrition training but anytime I
                      hear a vet recommending Science Diet--forget it--he doesn't know about
                      feline nutrition. Sorry....it's the truth. You can compare it to you
                      eating good, whole, fresh foods (i.e. preparing meals from scratch with good
                      ingredients) as opposed to eating Hamburger Helper with all of its
                      preservatives.

                      If you want some info about HCM cats that have been cured, you might want to
                      check "The Whole Cat Journal". I don't have the volume here at work but can
                      provide you with it or fax you the article. It provides names of
                      veterinarians who have cured HCM with homeopathic medicine and how they did
                      it and how, most definitely, it is NOT one size fits all. Bill, a truly
                      great vet is open to using whatever modalities to treat their patients.
                      Please, please, don't let vet school brainwash you. You can be an awesome
                      allopathic vet (like Dr. Mike and my current vet) and still also practice
                      holistic medicine. They can work together. I also don't vaccinate my cats
                      anymore. My holistic vet said (and this was agreed with by Dr. Mike) "give
                      them their FVRCP when babies--the first dose and the booster" and let their
                      own immune system kick in after that. Of course we vaccinate children. But
                      we don't vaccinate them ANNUALLY with the same thing year after year after
                      year. And I promise you giving cats FVRCP, feleuk, AND rabies all at one
                      time is severely compromising their immune system. I also must agree on
                      switching cats from a poor quality, preservative enhanced commercial diet to
                      a raw diet. The results are amazing. My holistic vet said it's one of the
                      best treatments for IBD. And guess what? When I first started going to my
                      holistic vet, she was not a proponent of raw diets for the same reason many
                      mentioned in this group (salmonella). I provided her with a lot of
                      literature but she was still skeptical. Then she went to a conference,
                      joined an egroup on raw diets, began feeding her cats AND dogs raw and now
                      she is a top proponent of raw diets. She has a 19 year old cat with
                      diabetes at her clinic. Started feeding raw and was able to substantially
                      reduce her insulin. However, if you don't want to feed raw (properly
                      supplemented, of course), you can either lightly cook the meats OR you can
                      feed one of the higher quality canned foods made from USDA approved human
                      grade meats (e.g. Wellness or Azmira to name only two). For anyone who is
                      interested, there is a great book entitled "The Nature of Animal Healing"
                      written by a traditionally trained vet, Dr. Martin Goldstein. It tells of
                      his path to natural feeding and treatment. I highly recommend it for
                      aspiring vets. AAFCO does not ensure optimum nutrition. Some treats state
                      they meet AAFCO but I wouldn't feed my cat a diet of them. Many AAFCO
                      stamped foods contain SALT. Why? Cats do not need a diet supplemented with
                      salt. And for our HCM cats, that's the last thing we need. But your point
                      is well taken that it sets some sort of standard for those who don't really
                      look at feline nutrition.

                      I know how vets are trained. I was accepted into vet school but spent a
                      summer working with a vet and I just didn't have the emotional strength at
                      21 to deal with the people who abused animals, animals being euthanized,
                      cats being declawed, etc. I didn't think I could tolerate alot of what vets
                      see--maybe I could have. So I will say, I do know the courses you have to
                      take and as I've said, I've taught human and animal A&P at the college
                      level. Of course vet students study when and why disease starts. But
                      sometimes I think there's a broader picture then just focusing on a
                      particular organ (for instance) which might be showing symptoms of illness.
                      For non-genetic diseases, I think the bigger picture goes to the immune
                      system--when it is in balance and maximized, the body systems are as well.
                      Since I started treating my own body better and more holistically--eating
                      whole, natural foods--no colds, no flu, no illnesses; I'm in much better
                      physical shape at 48 than probably 90% of 20 year olds and definitely better
                      than I was when I was younger. My cats are the same--oh the amazing
                      improvement in their coats, their teeth, their health--everything since we
                      changed to a better diet and started using holistic supplements. We rescued
                      our oldest cat at 4 weeks and she has travelled the world with us and is now
                      20; her blood work just done showed everything in normal range and she is
                      just steaming along (knock on wood) maintaining her lifelong weight, eats
                      right, has the stool of a young cat--she's amazing. Since she has lived
                      longer than any other cat I've had and she was switched to a more holistic
                      way of life when she was 10, I have to believe we're doing something right.

                      My main point in all of this is--we each need to do what we feel is best for
                      our beloved companions. If you only want to treat your cat
                      allopathicly--please, do; I respect that 100% and I don't feel you are less
                      concerned about your cat than I am about mine. But I have felt in reading
                      many threads that those of us who use holistic or homeopathic treatments are
                      thought to be using something akin to voodoo and we must not really care
                      about our cats if we are not treating them with the tried and true methods.
                      Let's just be open-minded to each other. I doubt very seriously that Mr.
                      Pepe would have lived as long with as good a quality of life if it weren't
                      for his treatment. And my Maxie just had his check up (he was diagnosed
                      9/03) and his echo was stable; his bp, heart rate, EKG, blood work, xray all
                      "beautiful". We are blessed and not only do I thank my wonderful holistic
                      vet and cardiologist who work together but I thank God because he gave these
                      people these talents.

                      BTW, Bill, even my cardiologist who does not practice holistic medicine, has
                      worked fully with my holistic vet and supported all the holistic treatments
                      we give Max; likewise, my holistic vet was 100% supportive of adding
                      atenolol. Great vets--open-minded.

                      Best of luck to you as you pursue your career--I know you must be very
                      dedicated to helping animals to have chosen this path--it is truly a career
                      of sacrifice of self on behalf of animal companions. And I pray all of you
                      with HCM cats will have so many many more joyous moments with them.

                      Marjorie
                      Sitka, Teddi, Gus, & Max




                      Your reply will go to the author of this message. If you feel your reply will benefit the entire group, please change the "To:" line to feline-heart@yahoogroups.com


                      Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                      ADVERTISEMENT





                      ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                      Yahoo! Groups Links

                      a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
                      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/feline-heart/

                      b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                      feline-heart-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

                      c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                      Your reply will go to the author of this message. If you feel your reply will benefit the entire group, please change the "To:" line to feline-heart@yahoogroups.com





                      Yahoo! Groups Sponsor

                      ADVERTISEMENT










                      ------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                      Yahoo! Groups Links

                      a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
                      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/feline-heart/

                      b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                      feline-heart-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

                      c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • William Draper
                      - they were disagreeing whether Hawthorn should be used in HCM cats. Susan Wynn felt that no, it should not be used because it could cause the heart to beat
                      Message 10 of 14 , May 29, 2004
                      • 0 Attachment
                        - "they were disagreeing whether Hawthorn should be used in HCM cats. Susan Wynn felt that no, it should not be used because it could cause the heart to beat too strongly"
                        -- this is also the crux of my argument. if a holistic DVM has hesitations about using a particular treatment, then that tells me something.

                        bill
                        dvm in 2005
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: Michelle Waters
                        To: feline-heart@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Saturday, May 29, 2004 7:19 PM
                        Subject: Re: [FH] Hawthorn (was Holistic vs allopathic)


                        Hi Deena and all,

                        If you go to www.holisticat.com and go into the archives there is an interesting discussion about Hawthorn, between Mary Tilford the herbalist and Susan Wynn, DVM, who is a holistic vet. I read it a while ago but the jist was that they were disagreeing whether Hawthorn should be used in HCM cats. Susan Wynn felt that no, it should not be used because it could cause the heart to beat too strongly. At any rate, I agree with you about the need to use herbs under the guidance of an experienced practitioner.

                        Michelle

                        >
                        >I think she's talking about the homeopathic version of hawthorn.
                        >I understand your concern regarding hawthorn, since logic indicates
                        >it should be harmful. Yet, it gets listed in pretty much every
                        >holistic books as being beneficial for heart kitties.
                        >
                        >This is how it was explained to me by Mary Tilford DVM, the wife of
                        >Greg Tilford the "Herbs for Pets" guy, when I asked the same
                        >question. I'm paraphrasing here, so don't quote me. "When
                        >you single out the active ingredient in hawthorn, it may appear
                        >harmful for HCM. But when you use it in it's whole form, it seems
                        >to act as a very strong heart conditioner and BP regulator. Mother
                        >nature builds in these checks & balances that sciences is unable to
                        >duplicate in a lab."
                        >
                        >This is why I always try to use a whole food supplement rather than
                        >just the active ingredient, if possible. For example, egg whites
                        >are known to deplete biotin. But when you include the yoke & shell,
                        >eggs provide the #1 bioavailable food for a cat. So I try to always
                        >feed whole foods figuring if Mother Nature didn't want wolves to eat
                        >egg whites, she would have taught them how to use an egg separator.
                        >Mary Tilford seemed very approachable when I talked to her and may
                        >take your call. I'm sure she can explain this better than I.
                        >
                        >Based on my personal experience with hawthorn, I found it's one of
                        >the herbs you should NOT be fooling around with unless instucted by
                        >a qualified practitioner. Especially if a cat has severe heart
                        >disease. Initially, Mr Pepe tested very negative to hawthorn, but
                        >later tested very strong. What caused the change? My guess is that
                        >when his CHF was very severe, whatever hawthorne does would have
                        >made him worse. When he got the fluid under control and his
                        >breathing was stable, his heart was able to reap the benefit of
                        >hawthorne, so it tested "strongly beneficial" for him.
                        >
                        >This is a perfect example of why you do not want to treat heart
                        >kitties holistically based on one persons experience or by reading
                        >one book. I hear your frustration with this practice. My mother-in-
                        >law swears that if it appears in Ladies Home Journal that it HAS to
                        >be medical fact. For holistic treatment to be effective (and safe),
                        >it MUST be personalized to the individual patient's needs. Because
                        >our cells change on a daily basis, theoretically treatments can
                        >change too.
                        >
                        >If you want to use holistic medicine on a heart kitty....please,
                        >please, please do so while working with a qualified practitioner.
                        >As Shane said, there are many bad holistic vets out there. There
                        >are also some very talented ones. The same goes for MD's,
                        >DVM's, DDS's, etc. You must have a healthcare professional that you
                        >are comfortable with and trust.
                        >
                        >I'm not trying to push holistic medicine on anyone. I'm
                        >just trying to explain some of the theories to those who are
                        >interested in learning about it.
                        >


                        ____________________________________________________________
                        Find what you are looking for with the Lycos Yellow Pages
                        http://r.lycos.com/r/yp_emailfooter/http://yellowpages.lycos.com/default.asp?SRC=lycos10


                        Your reply will go to the author of this message. If you feel your reply will benefit the entire group, please change the "To:" line to feline-heart@yahoogroups.com


                        Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                        ADVERTISEMENT





                        ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                        Yahoo! Groups Links

                        a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
                        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/feline-heart/

                        b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                        feline-heart-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

                        c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Shane Fox Luper
                        We contemplated this, believe me, but made a conscience decision not to do this. I know all of the stress and destruction that it would cause for me and I
                        Message 11 of 14 , May 30, 2004
                        • 0 Attachment
                          We contemplated this, believe me, but made a conscience decision not to do
                          this. I know all of the stress and destruction that it would cause for me
                          and I really did not want to go through that right now. What I did though,
                          was sit down and write this veterinarian a letter, telling him my opinion of
                          what he did. I had written what the cost was of our second surgery, but I
                          knew not to expect that he would reimburse us, which naturally, he did not.

                          My vet also stated that this quack was the reason that our Lucy went through
                          what she did, so he confirmed it for us, but again, just way too time
                          consuming and stressful.

                          Thanks for your thoughts though Bill. I appreciate it.



                          Shane



                          _____

                          From: William Draper [mailto:wedraper@...]
                          Sent: Saturday, May 29, 2004 3:37 PM
                          To: FH
                          Subject: Re: [FH] Holistic vs allopathic



                          - "So in addition to paying the quacks bill of $1000.00 we had to pay the
                          other vet to correct the quack's mistake"
                          -- you ought to contact your state vet board and the better business bureau.
                          this is bordering on malpractice in my opinion

                          bill
                          dvm in 2005
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: Shane Fox Luper
                          To: 'William Draper' ; feline-heart@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Friday, May 28, 2004 8:32 PM
                          Subject: RE: [FH] Holistic vs allopathic


                          Hi Bill ( and everyone else who's been contributing to this topic)

                          The last bit of this note that you wrote is interesting. I have been to
                          many vets over the years, holistic and allopathic. More recently, I was
                          referred to a holistic vet for one of our cats with teeth problems. This vet
                          was one of a few holistic vets who does perform surgeries. And I knew our
                          kitty would need teeth pulled. And knowing what I know with anesthesia-free
                          teeth cleaning, I thought I knew a thing or two. Well, I didn't. This vet, a
                          horrible quack, did ridiculous things to our cat. Have you heard of
                          "Bio-kinetics", well he tried using this "gun" type thing that Chiropractors
                          use on their patients on her for a "neck problems" he thought she had, only
                          he touched his hand to the area on her back and held the gun to his own
                          neck! He said it was working "THROUGH" him!!! My husband and I were
                          disgusted really. The guy wound up pulling several teeth in the end and only
                          giving her an anti-biotic shot -nothing orally, nor any pain meds. She was
                          sick for a month with swollen glands that would not go down so we took her
                          to our regular vet. In a nutshell, I learned that for proper tooth removal
                          on a pet, you need to do dental x-rays in order to see everything and also,
                          in order to remove the ROOT of the tooth! I was clueless about this, but I
                          learned quickly. The quack vet never did x-rays and wound up leaving root
                          which caused the swollen glands. So in addition to paying the quacks bill of
                          $1000.00 we had to pay the other vet to correct the quack's mistake. It
                          really chapped my hide, but now, at least I know.



                          What it really boils down to for me is that I believe that with what I
                          have experienced, there are some really good holistic vets and I know a few
                          good ones) out there, and some real quacks that people should just stay away
                          from.



                          I.M.H.O.



                          Shane






                          ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
                          --

                          From: William Draper [mailto:wedraper@...]
                          Sent: Friday, May 28, 2004 10:29 AM
                          To: feline-heart@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: Re: [FH] Holistic vs allopathic



                          - "And I am sorry, Bill, but I must patently disagree with you and agree
                          with Deena that many vets, GOOD vets, will prescribe for the symptom and not
                          the problem"
                          -- then they are practicing incorrectly. that is NOT the way we are
                          trained to treat disease.

                          - "We tried theophylline and made household changes--got rid of silica
                          based litter, got a HEPA air purifier, etc. No help. He wanted to put her
                          on prednisone. I'm sorry, but I won't take
                          steroids and I will not put my cats on them"
                          -- hmm, it would seem that this statement refutes my previous argument.
                          however, steroids have been the "magic bullet" for many animals with many
                          different diseases. for me it definitely won't be a first-line drug for
                          most things (though it is essential in things like shock therapy and auto
                          immune diseases), but i will probably adhere to the motto "never let an
                          animal die without the benefit of steroids".

                          - it has come to my attention that things i filed in my brain under
                          "adjunct therapy" are actually pseudo-holistic remedies. things like omega
                          fatty acids and taurine as nutritional supplements for certain diseases i
                          agree with. my problem is people using herbal extracts with ingredients
                          that make no sense. giving a cat with HCM a positive inotrope can not be a
                          good idea. that goes against everything we know about the pathogenesis of
                          the disease. however, giving an animal with an inflammatory problem omega
                          fatty acids (as they can be incorporated into the cell membrane and replace
                          the inflammatory precursors), now that makes sense to me. i WILL do some
                          more reading into this, as it intrigues me. i reiterate that i am all for
                          the best treatment options for my future clients. i just can't abide by the
                          "my mom's best friend's hairstylist gave her cat substance A and it got over
                          disease X". this is how holistic medicine seems to be propagate to me. we
                          have had a few holistic vets come to school to give lectures, and they just
                          don't impress me. their knowledge of basic disease processes is lacking,
                          and they seem to have a standard remedy for every disease.

                          bill
                          dvm in 2005
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: Marjorie Blaine
                          To: HCM
                          Sent: Friday, May 28, 2004 3:54 AM
                          Subject: [FH] Holistic vs allopathic


                          Well, I suppose I'd like to throw my two cents into the fray. I've had
                          cats
                          since I was 6 years old--42 years now--and I also have a Master's Degree
                          in
                          Wildlife Biology which is not a veterinary degree but I have studied and
                          taught human and animal anatomy and physiology and was accepted into vet
                          school (more on that later). I've done research, understand about large
                          sample sizes (one of my beefs is human studies which used 300 people but
                          make gross generalizations). I've volunteered at a no-kill cat shelter
                          for
                          the past 7 years and seen all kinds of things. I've studied feline
                          nutrition diligently the past several years. I'm not saying any of this
                          to
                          pat my own back but just so you'll know I'm not a novice cat person who
                          has
                          no idea about scientific research or veterinary science, etc.

                          After feeding my cats Science Diet for years, vaccinating annually
                          w/FVRCP,
                          feleuk, and rabies and having lost a cat to vaccination site sarcoma, I
                          have
                          a little experience with this stuff. The ONLY treatment which seemed to
                          truly help my cat was holistic. It gave us 4 months of good quality
                          life
                          with him that our oncologist and regular vet said we'd never have. I
                          believe firmly in a high-quality diet (not Science Diet, Iams, Nutro,
                          etc)
                          and using holistic medicine knowing there are some cases where
                          allopathic is
                          necessary (eg my Max is on atenolol). I have a fabulous vet who
                          practices
                          both types of medicine altho she firmly believes holistic is the best
                          way of
                          treating an animal and human. Sarah mentions she likes to base
                          treatment of
                          her cat with a critical illness on scientific studies. Please correct
                          me if
                          I'm wrong but there are no definitive studies with large sample sizes
                          that
                          indicate atenolol is effective in cats. However, the majority of us use
                          it
                          to decrease the symptoms of this horrible disease. We know it won't
                          cure
                          them. I do agree there are holistic treatments which may work for
                          humans
                          but not animals--that's why you need a vet who KNOWS what they are doing
                          when you are using holistic or homeopathic treatment. I would never
                          undertake this on my own. I also don't believe there is always an
                          "efficacious" way to deal with a particular illness. Genetically, we
                          are
                          all different and our bodies may react differently to different
                          substances
                          (same reason why I don't believe you can just throw estrogen at a
                          peri-menopausal or menopausal woman--our hormone levels can be quite
                          different and what one needs, another may not). And I am sorry, Bill,
                          but I
                          must patently disagree with you and agree with Deena that many vets,
                          GOOD
                          vets, will prescribe for the symptom and not the problem. Many good
                          human
                          doctors do the same. Example--I was working with a fantastic vet (I
                          interviewed 20 vets before I settled on him--let's call him Dr. Mike).
                          My
                          elderly cat developed asthma. We tried theophylline and made household
                          changes--got rid of silica based litter, got a HEPA air purifier, etc.
                          No
                          help. He wanted to put her on prednisone. I'm sorry, but I won't take
                          steroids and I will not put my cats on them. He understood 150% and
                          said,
                          let's take this to the holistic vet (who is my current vet). We did;
                          using
                          herbs and a Standard Process supplement, my cat quit coughing--has not
                          had
                          an asthma attack in 5 years--and the first vet cannot believe how her
                          lungs
                          sound (quiet as can be) compared to how they started out sounding. Dr.
                          Mike
                          ( a top graduate of CSU by the way--a premier vet school) told me that
                          sometimes you don't have a choice as much as you want to address the
                          underlying cause. I am not saying they don't give it their best shot
                          but
                          even in advanced human medicine sometimes there's just no answer. He
                          also
                          told me that MOST vets have NO training on nutrition. I understand that
                          now
                          some veterinary schools are starting some nutrition training but anytime
                          I
                          hear a vet recommending Science Diet--forget it--he doesn't know about
                          feline nutrition. Sorry....it's the truth. You can compare it to you
                          eating good, whole, fresh foods (i.e. preparing meals from scratch with
                          good
                          ingredients) as opposed to eating Hamburger Helper with all of its
                          preservatives.

                          If you want some info about HCM cats that have been cured, you might
                          want to
                          check "The Whole Cat Journal". I don't have the volume here at work but
                          can
                          provide you with it or fax you the article. It provides names of
                          veterinarians who have cured HCM with homeopathic medicine and how they
                          did
                          it and how, most definitely, it is NOT one size fits all. Bill, a truly
                          great vet is open to using whatever modalities to treat their patients.
                          Please, please, don't let vet school brainwash you. You can be an
                          awesome
                          allopathic vet (like Dr. Mike and my current vet) and still also
                          practice
                          holistic medicine. They can work together. I also don't vaccinate my
                          cats
                          anymore. My holistic vet said (and this was agreed with by Dr. Mike)
                          "give
                          them their FVRCP when babies--the first dose and the booster" and let
                          their
                          own immune system kick in after that. Of course we vaccinate children.
                          But
                          we don't vaccinate them ANNUALLY with the same thing year after year
                          after
                          year. And I promise you giving cats FVRCP, feleuk, AND rabies all at
                          one
                          time is severely compromising their immune system. I also must agree on
                          switching cats from a poor quality, preservative enhanced commercial
                          diet to
                          a raw diet. The results are amazing. My holistic vet said it's one of
                          the
                          best treatments for IBD. And guess what? When I first started going to
                          my
                          holistic vet, she was not a proponent of raw diets for the same reason
                          many
                          mentioned in this group (salmonella). I provided her with a lot of
                          literature but she was still skeptical. Then she went to a conference,
                          joined an egroup on raw diets, began feeding her cats AND dogs raw and
                          now
                          she is a top proponent of raw diets. She has a 19 year old cat with
                          diabetes at her clinic. Started feeding raw and was able to
                          substantially
                          reduce her insulin. However, if you don't want to feed raw (properly
                          supplemented, of course), you can either lightly cook the meats OR you
                          can
                          feed one of the higher quality canned foods made from USDA approved
                          human
                          grade meats (e.g. Wellness or Azmira to name only two). For anyone who
                          is
                          interested, there is a great book entitled "The Nature of Animal
                          Healing"
                          written by a traditionally trained vet, Dr. Martin Goldstein. It tells
                          of
                          his path to natural feeding and treatment. I highly recommend it for
                          aspiring vets. AAFCO does not ensure optimum nutrition. Some treats
                          state
                          they meet AAFCO but I wouldn't feed my cat a diet of them. Many AAFCO
                          stamped foods contain SALT. Why? Cats do not need a diet supplemented
                          with
                          salt. And for our HCM cats, that's the last thing we need. But your
                          point
                          is well taken that it sets some sort of standard for those who don't
                          really
                          look at feline nutrition.

                          I know how vets are trained. I was accepted into vet school but spent a
                          summer working with a vet and I just didn't have the emotional strength
                          at
                          21 to deal with the people who abused animals, animals being euthanized,
                          cats being declawed, etc. I didn't think I could tolerate alot of what
                          vets
                          see--maybe I could have. So I will say, I do know the courses you have
                          to
                          take and as I've said, I've taught human and animal A&P at the college
                          level. Of course vet students study when and why disease starts. But
                          sometimes I think there's a broader picture then just focusing on a
                          particular organ (for instance) which might be showing symptoms of
                          illness.
                          For non-genetic diseases, I think the bigger picture goes to the immune
                          system--when it is in balance and maximized, the body systems are as
                          well.
                          Since I started treating my own body better and more
                          holistically--eating
                          whole, natural foods--no colds, no flu, no illnesses; I'm in much better
                          physical shape at 48 than probably 90% of 20 year olds and definitely
                          better
                          than I was when I was younger. My cats are the same--oh the amazing
                          improvement in their coats, their teeth, their health--everything since
                          we
                          changed to a better diet and started using holistic supplements. We
                          rescued
                          our oldest cat at 4 weeks and she has travelled the world with us and is
                          now
                          20; her blood work just done showed everything in normal range and she
                          is
                          just steaming along (knock on wood) maintaining her lifelong weight,
                          eats
                          right, has the stool of a young cat--she's amazing. Since she has lived
                          longer than any other cat I've had and she was switched to a more
                          holistic
                          way of life when she was 10, I have to believe we're doing something
                          right.

                          My main point in all of this is--we each need to do what we feel is best
                          for
                          our beloved companions. If you only want to treat your cat
                          allopathicly--please, do; I respect that 100% and I don't feel you are
                          less
                          concerned about your cat than I am about mine. But I have felt in
                          reading
                          many threads that those of us who use holistic or homeopathic treatments
                          are
                          thought to be using something akin to voodoo and we must not really care
                          about our cats if we are not treating them with the tried and true
                          methods.
                          Let's just be open-minded to each other. I doubt very seriously that Mr.
                          Pepe would have lived as long with as good a quality of life if it
                          weren't
                          for his treatment. And my Maxie just had his check up (he was diagnosed
                          9/03) and his echo was stable; his bp, heart rate, EKG, blood work, xray
                          all
                          "beautiful". We are blessed and not only do I thank my wonderful
                          holistic
                          vet and cardiologist who work together but I thank God because he gave
                          these
                          people these talents.

                          BTW, Bill, even my cardiologist who does not practice holistic medicine,
                          has
                          worked fully with my holistic vet and supported all the holistic
                          treatments
                          we give Max; likewise, my holistic vet was 100% supportive of adding
                          atenolol. Great vets--open-minded.

                          Best of luck to you as you pursue your career--I know you must be very
                          dedicated to helping animals to have chosen this path--it is truly a
                          career
                          of sacrifice of self on behalf of animal companions. And I pray all of
                          you
                          with HCM cats will have so many many more joyous moments with them.

                          Marjorie
                          Sitka, Teddi, Gus, & Max




                          Your reply will go to the author of this message. If you feel your reply
                          will benefit the entire group, please change the "To:" line to
                          feline-heart@yahoogroups.com


                          Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                          ADVERTISEMENT






                          ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
                          --
                          Yahoo! Groups Links

                          a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
                          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/feline-heart/

                          b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                          feline-heart-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

                          c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                          Service.



                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                          Your reply will go to the author of this message. If you feel your reply
                          will benefit the entire group, please change the "To:" line to
                          feline-heart@yahoogroups.com





                          Yahoo! Groups Sponsor

                          ADVERTISEMENT










                          ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
                          --

                          Yahoo! Groups Links

                          a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
                          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/feline-heart/

                          b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                          feline-heart-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

                          c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.




                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                          Your reply will go to the author of this message. If you feel your reply
                          will benefit the entire group, please change the "To:" line to
                          feline-heart@yahoogroups.com






                          Yahoo! Groups Sponsor



                          ADVERTISEMENT

                          <http://rd.yahoo.com/SIG=129v89nni/M=295196.4901138.6071305.3001176/D=groups
                          /S=1707296857:HM/EXP=1085960525/A=2128215/R=0/SIG=10se96mf6/*http:/companion
                          .yahoo.com> click here



                          <http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=295196.4901138.6071305.3001176/D=groups/S=
                          :HM/A=2128215/rand=767587866>



                          _____

                          Yahoo! Groups Links

                          * To visit your group on the web, go to:
                          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/feline-heart/

                          * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                          feline-heart-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                          <mailto:feline-heart-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>

                          * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
                          <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service.



                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Shane Fox Luper
                          Hi everyone, Our cardiologist just cut down Teddy’s Atenolol to half a ¼ of a pill. That’s hard to do, but he’s been lethargic on the ¼ tablet. I meant
                          Message 12 of 14 , Jun 2, 2004
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Hi everyone,

                            Our cardiologist just cut down Teddy’s Atenolol to half a ¼ of a pill.
                            That’s hard to do, but he’s been lethargic on the ¼ tablet.

                            I meant to ask him something. Teddy used to snore, but now that he’s on the
                            Atenolol, he’s not snoring. What kind of effect could the drug have on the
                            snoring or nasal passage? Anyone have a thought?



                            Also, for you cat people, I started a yahoo group. It’s called “Cat Addicts
                            Forum”. Like the name? LOL! Anyhow, here is a link to it if you’d like to
                            join. I already have several members signed up and it seems to be pretty
                            active. Here is the link.
                            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CatAdFor/?yguid=179615431

                            No pressure to sign up, but I thought it might be something fun.



                            I’ll look forward to your answers about the Atenolol.

                            Shane



                            _____

                            From: William Draper [mailto:wedraper@...]
                            Sent: Friday, May 28, 2004 10:29 AM
                            To: feline-heart@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: Re: [FH] Holistic vs allopathic



                            - "And I am sorry, Bill, but I must patently disagree with you and agree
                            with Deena that many vets, GOOD vets, will prescribe for the symptom and not
                            the problem"
                            -- then they are practicing incorrectly. that is NOT the way we are trained
                            to treat disease.

                            - "We tried theophylline and made household changes--got rid of silica based
                            litter, got a HEPA air purifier, etc. No help. He wanted to put her on
                            prednisone. I'm sorry, but I won't take
                            steroids and I will not put my cats on them"
                            -- hmm, it would seem that this statement refutes my previous argument.
                            however, steroids have been the "magic bullet" for many animals with many
                            different diseases. for me it definitely won't be a first-line drug for
                            most things (though it is essential in things like shock therapy and auto
                            immune diseases), but i will probably adhere to the motto "never let an
                            animal die without the benefit of steroids".

                            - it has come to my attention that things i filed in my brain under "adjunct
                            therapy" are actually pseudo-holistic remedies. things like omega fatty
                            acids and taurine as nutritional supplements for certain diseases i agree
                            with. my problem is people using herbal extracts with ingredients that make
                            no sense. giving a cat with HCM a positive inotrope can not be a good idea.
                            that goes against everything we know about the pathogenesis of the disease.
                            however, giving an animal with an inflammatory problem omega fatty acids (as
                            they can be incorporated into the cell membrane and replace the inflammatory
                            precursors), now that makes sense to me. i WILL do some more reading into
                            this, as it intrigues me. i reiterate that i am all for the best treatment
                            options for my future clients. i just can't abide by the "my mom's best
                            friend's hairstylist gave her cat substance A and it got over disease X".
                            this is how holistic medicine seems to be propagate to me. we have had a
                            few holistic vets come to school to give lectures, and they just don't
                            impress me. their knowledge of basic disease processes is lacking, and they
                            seem to have a standard remedy for every disease.

                            bill
                            dvm in 2005
                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: Marjorie Blaine
                            To: HCM
                            Sent: Friday, May 28, 2004 3:54 AM
                            Subject: [FH] Holistic vs allopathic


                            Well, I suppose I'd like to throw my two cents into the fray. I've had
                            cats
                            since I was 6 years old--42 years now--and I also have a Master's Degree
                            in
                            Wildlife Biology which is not a veterinary degree but I have studied and
                            taught human and animal anatomy and physiology and was accepted into vet
                            school (more on that later). I've done research, understand about large
                            sample sizes (one of my beefs is human studies which used 300 people but
                            make gross generalizations). I've volunteered at a no-kill cat shelter
                            for
                            the past 7 years and seen all kinds of things. I've studied feline
                            nutrition diligently the past several years. I'm not saying any of this
                            to
                            pat my own back but just so you'll know I'm not a novice cat person who
                            has
                            no idea about scientific research or veterinary science, etc.

                            After feeding my cats Science Diet for years, vaccinating annually
                            w/FVRCP,
                            feleuk, and rabies and having lost a cat to vaccination site sarcoma, I
                            have
                            a little experience with this stuff. The ONLY treatment which seemed to
                            truly help my cat was holistic. It gave us 4 months of good quality life
                            with him that our oncologist and regular vet said we'd never have. I
                            believe firmly in a high-quality diet (not Science Diet, Iams, Nutro, etc)
                            and using holistic medicine knowing there are some cases where allopathic
                            is
                            necessary (eg my Max is on atenolol). I have a fabulous vet who practices
                            both types of medicine altho she firmly believes holistic is the best way
                            of
                            treating an animal and human. Sarah mentions she likes to base treatment
                            of
                            her cat with a critical illness on scientific studies. Please correct me
                            if
                            I'm wrong but there are no definitive studies with large sample sizes that
                            indicate atenolol is effective in cats. However, the majority of us use
                            it
                            to decrease the symptoms of this horrible disease. We know it won't cure
                            them. I do agree there are holistic treatments which may work for humans
                            but not animals--that's why you need a vet who KNOWS what they are doing
                            when you are using holistic or homeopathic treatment. I would never
                            undertake this on my own. I also don't believe there is always an
                            "efficacious" way to deal with a particular illness. Genetically, we are
                            all different and our bodies may react differently to different substances
                            (same reason why I don't believe you can just throw estrogen at a
                            peri-menopausal or menopausal woman--our hormone levels can be quite
                            different and what one needs, another may not). And I am sorry, Bill, but
                            I
                            must patently disagree with you and agree with Deena that many vets, GOOD
                            vets, will prescribe for the symptom and not the problem. Many good human
                            doctors do the same. Example--I was working with a fantastic vet (I
                            interviewed 20 vets before I settled on him--let's call him Dr. Mike). My
                            elderly cat developed asthma. We tried theophylline and made household
                            changes--got rid of silica based litter, got a HEPA air purifier, etc. No
                            help. He wanted to put her on prednisone. I'm sorry, but I won't take
                            steroids and I will not put my cats on them. He understood 150% and said,
                            let's take this to the holistic vet (who is my current vet). We did;
                            using
                            herbs and a Standard Process supplement, my cat quit coughing--has not had
                            an asthma attack in 5 years--and the first vet cannot believe how her
                            lungs
                            sound (quiet as can be) compared to how they started out sounding. Dr.
                            Mike
                            ( a top graduate of CSU by the way--a premier vet school) told me that
                            sometimes you don't have a choice as much as you want to address the
                            underlying cause. I am not saying they don't give it their best shot but
                            even in advanced human medicine sometimes there's just no answer. He also
                            told me that MOST vets have NO training on nutrition. I understand that
                            now
                            some veterinary schools are starting some nutrition training but anytime I
                            hear a vet recommending Science Diet--forget it--he doesn't know about
                            feline nutrition. Sorry....it's the truth. You can compare it to you
                            eating good, whole, fresh foods (i.e. preparing meals from scratch with
                            good
                            ingredients) as opposed to eating Hamburger Helper with all of its
                            preservatives.

                            If you want some info about HCM cats that have been cured, you might want
                            to
                            check "The Whole Cat Journal". I don't have the volume here at work but
                            can
                            provide you with it or fax you the article. It provides names of
                            veterinarians who have cured HCM with homeopathic medicine and how they
                            did
                            it and how, most definitely, it is NOT one size fits all. Bill, a truly
                            great vet is open to using whatever modalities to treat their patients.
                            Please, please, don't let vet school brainwash you. You can be an awesome
                            allopathic vet (like Dr. Mike and my current vet) and still also practice
                            holistic medicine. They can work together. I also don't vaccinate my
                            cats
                            anymore. My holistic vet said (and this was agreed with by Dr. Mike)
                            "give
                            them their FVRCP when babies--the first dose and the booster" and let
                            their
                            own immune system kick in after that. Of course we vaccinate children.
                            But
                            we don't vaccinate them ANNUALLY with the same thing year after year after
                            year. And I promise you giving cats FVRCP, feleuk, AND rabies all at one
                            time is severely compromising their immune system. I also must agree on
                            switching cats from a poor quality, preservative enhanced commercial diet
                            to
                            a raw diet. The results are amazing. My holistic vet said it's one of
                            the
                            best treatments for IBD. And guess what? When I first started going to my
                            holistic vet, she was not a proponent of raw diets for the same reason
                            many
                            mentioned in this group (salmonella). I provided her with a lot of
                            literature but she was still skeptical. Then she went to a conference,
                            joined an egroup on raw diets, began feeding her cats AND dogs raw and now
                            she is a top proponent of raw diets. She has a 19 year old cat with
                            diabetes at her clinic. Started feeding raw and was able to substantially
                            reduce her insulin. However, if you don't want to feed raw (properly
                            supplemented, of course), you can either lightly cook the meats OR you can
                            feed one of the higher quality canned foods made from USDA approved human
                            grade meats (e.g. Wellness or Azmira to name only two). For anyone who is
                            interested, there is a great book entitled "The Nature of Animal Healing"
                            written by a traditionally trained vet, Dr. Martin Goldstein. It tells of
                            his path to natural feeding and treatment. I highly recommend it for
                            aspiring vets. AAFCO does not ensure optimum nutrition. Some treats
                            state
                            they meet AAFCO but I wouldn't feed my cat a diet of them. Many AAFCO
                            stamped foods contain SALT. Why? Cats do not need a diet supplemented
                            with
                            salt. And for our HCM cats, that's the last thing we need. But your
                            point
                            is well taken that it sets some sort of standard for those who don't
                            really
                            look at feline nutrition.

                            I know how vets are trained. I was accepted into vet school but spent a
                            summer working with a vet and I just didn't have the emotional strength at
                            21 to deal with the people who abused animals, animals being euthanized,
                            cats being declawed, etc. I didn't think I could tolerate alot of what
                            vets
                            see--maybe I could have. So I will say, I do know the courses you have to
                            take and as I've said, I've taught human and animal A&P at the college
                            level. Of course vet students study when and why disease starts. But
                            sometimes I think there's a broader picture then just focusing on a
                            particular organ (for instance) which might be showing symptoms of
                            illness.
                            For non-genetic diseases, I think the bigger picture goes to the immune
                            system--when it is in balance and maximized, the body systems are as well.
                            Since I started treating my own body better and more holistically--eating
                            whole, natural foods--no colds, no flu, no illnesses; I'm in much better
                            physical shape at 48 than probably 90% of 20 year olds and definitely
                            better
                            than I was when I was younger. My cats are the same--oh the amazing
                            improvement in their coats, their teeth, their health--everything since we
                            changed to a better diet and started using holistic supplements. We
                            rescued
                            our oldest cat at 4 weeks and she has travelled the world with us and is
                            now
                            20; her blood work just done showed everything in normal range and she is
                            just steaming along (knock on wood) maintaining her lifelong weight, eats
                            right, has the stool of a young cat--she's amazing. Since she has lived
                            longer than any other cat I've had and she was switched to a more holistic
                            way of life when she was 10, I have to believe we're doing something
                            right.

                            My main point in all of this is--we each need to do what we feel is best
                            for
                            our beloved companions. If you only want to treat your cat
                            allopathicly--please, do; I respect that 100% and I don't feel you are
                            less
                            concerned about your cat than I am about mine. But I have felt in reading
                            many threads that those of us who use holistic or homeopathic treatments
                            are
                            thought to be using something akin to voodoo and we must not really care
                            about our cats if we are not treating them with the tried and true
                            methods.
                            Let's just be open-minded to each other. I doubt very seriously that Mr.
                            Pepe would have lived as long with as good a quality of life if it weren't
                            for his treatment. And my Maxie just had his check up (he was diagnosed
                            9/03) and his echo was stable; his bp, heart rate, EKG, blood work, xray
                            all
                            "beautiful". We are blessed and not only do I thank my wonderful holistic
                            vet and cardiologist who work together but I thank God because he gave
                            these
                            people these talents.

                            BTW, Bill, even my cardiologist who does not practice holistic medicine,
                            has
                            worked fully with my holistic vet and supported all the holistic
                            treatments
                            we give Max; likewise, my holistic vet was 100% supportive of adding
                            atenolol. Great vets--open-minded.

                            Best of luck to you as you pursue your career--I know you must be very
                            dedicated to helping animals to have chosen this path--it is truly a
                            career
                            of sacrifice of self on behalf of animal companions. And I pray all of
                            you
                            with HCM cats will have so many many more joyous moments with them.

                            Marjorie
                            Sitka, Teddi, Gus, & Max




                            Your reply will go to the author of this message. If you feel your reply
                            will benefit the entire group, please change the "To:" line to
                            feline-heart@yahoogroups.com


                            Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                            ADVERTISEMENT





                            ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
                            --
                            Yahoo! Groups Links

                            a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
                            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/feline-heart/

                            b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                            feline-heart-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

                            c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.




                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                            Your reply will go to the author of this message. If you feel your reply
                            will benefit the entire group, please change the "To:" line to
                            feline-heart@yahoogroups.com






                            Yahoo! Groups Sponsor



                            ADVERTISEMENT

                            <http://rd.yahoo.com/SIG=129tes73g/M=295196.4901138.6071305.3001176/D=groups
                            /S=1707296857:HM/EXP=1085855402/A=2128215/R=0/SIG=10se96mf6/*http:/companion
                            .yahoo.com> click here



                            <http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=295196.4901138.6071305.3001176/D=groups/S=
                            :HM/A=2128215/rand=841112189>



                            _____

                            Yahoo! Groups Links

                            * To visit your group on the web, go to:
                            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/feline-heart/

                            * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                            feline-heart-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                            <mailto:feline-heart-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>

                            * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
                            <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service.



                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.