Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.
 

Re: [FH] Holistic vs allopathic

Expand Messages
  • William Draper
    - And I am sorry, Bill, but I must patently disagree with you and agree with Deena that many vets, GOOD vets, will prescribe for the symptom and not the
    Message 1 of 14 , May 28, 2004
      - "And I am sorry, Bill, but I must patently disagree with you and agree with Deena that many vets, GOOD vets, will prescribe for the symptom and not the problem"
      -- then they are practicing incorrectly. that is NOT the way we are trained to treat disease.

      - "We tried theophylline and made household changes--got rid of silica based litter, got a HEPA air purifier, etc. No help. He wanted to put her on prednisone. I'm sorry, but I won't take
      steroids and I will not put my cats on them"
      -- hmm, it would seem that this statement refutes my previous argument. however, steroids have been the "magic bullet" for many animals with many different diseases. for me it definitely won't be a first-line drug for most things (though it is essential in things like shock therapy and auto immune diseases), but i will probably adhere to the motto "never let an animal die without the benefit of steroids".

      - it has come to my attention that things i filed in my brain under "adjunct therapy" are actually pseudo-holistic remedies. things like omega fatty acids and taurine as nutritional supplements for certain diseases i agree with. my problem is people using herbal extracts with ingredients that make no sense. giving a cat with HCM a positive inotrope can not be a good idea. that goes against everything we know about the pathogenesis of the disease. however, giving an animal with an inflammatory problem omega fatty acids (as they can be incorporated into the cell membrane and replace the inflammatory precursors), now that makes sense to me. i WILL do some more reading into this, as it intrigues me. i reiterate that i am all for the best treatment options for my future clients. i just can't abide by the "my mom's best friend's hairstylist gave her cat substance A and it got over disease X". this is how holistic medicine seems to be propagate to me. we have had a few holistic vets come to school to give lectures, and they just don't impress me. their knowledge of basic disease processes is lacking, and they seem to have a standard remedy for every disease.

      bill
      dvm in 2005
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Marjorie Blaine
      To: HCM
      Sent: Friday, May 28, 2004 3:54 AM
      Subject: [FH] Holistic vs allopathic


      Well, I suppose I'd like to throw my two cents into the fray. I've had cats
      since I was 6 years old--42 years now--and I also have a Master's Degree in
      Wildlife Biology which is not a veterinary degree but I have studied and
      taught human and animal anatomy and physiology and was accepted into vet
      school (more on that later). I've done research, understand about large
      sample sizes (one of my beefs is human studies which used 300 people but
      make gross generalizations). I've volunteered at a no-kill cat shelter for
      the past 7 years and seen all kinds of things. I've studied feline
      nutrition diligently the past several years. I'm not saying any of this to
      pat my own back but just so you'll know I'm not a novice cat person who has
      no idea about scientific research or veterinary science, etc.

      After feeding my cats Science Diet for years, vaccinating annually w/FVRCP,
      feleuk, and rabies and having lost a cat to vaccination site sarcoma, I have
      a little experience with this stuff. The ONLY treatment which seemed to
      truly help my cat was holistic. It gave us 4 months of good quality life
      with him that our oncologist and regular vet said we'd never have. I
      believe firmly in a high-quality diet (not Science Diet, Iams, Nutro, etc)
      and using holistic medicine knowing there are some cases where allopathic is
      necessary (eg my Max is on atenolol). I have a fabulous vet who practices
      both types of medicine altho she firmly believes holistic is the best way of
      treating an animal and human. Sarah mentions she likes to base treatment of
      her cat with a critical illness on scientific studies. Please correct me if
      I'm wrong but there are no definitive studies with large sample sizes that
      indicate atenolol is effective in cats. However, the majority of us use it
      to decrease the symptoms of this horrible disease. We know it won't cure
      them. I do agree there are holistic treatments which may work for humans
      but not animals--that's why you need a vet who KNOWS what they are doing
      when you are using holistic or homeopathic treatment. I would never
      undertake this on my own. I also don't believe there is always an
      "efficacious" way to deal with a particular illness. Genetically, we are
      all different and our bodies may react differently to different substances
      (same reason why I don't believe you can just throw estrogen at a
      peri-menopausal or menopausal woman--our hormone levels can be quite
      different and what one needs, another may not). And I am sorry, Bill, but I
      must patently disagree with you and agree with Deena that many vets, GOOD
      vets, will prescribe for the symptom and not the problem. Many good human
      doctors do the same. Example--I was working with a fantastic vet (I
      interviewed 20 vets before I settled on him--let's call him Dr. Mike). My
      elderly cat developed asthma. We tried theophylline and made household
      changes--got rid of silica based litter, got a HEPA air purifier, etc. No
      help. He wanted to put her on prednisone. I'm sorry, but I won't take
      steroids and I will not put my cats on them. He understood 150% and said,
      let's take this to the holistic vet (who is my current vet). We did; using
      herbs and a Standard Process supplement, my cat quit coughing--has not had
      an asthma attack in 5 years--and the first vet cannot believe how her lungs
      sound (quiet as can be) compared to how they started out sounding. Dr. Mike
      ( a top graduate of CSU by the way--a premier vet school) told me that
      sometimes you don't have a choice as much as you want to address the
      underlying cause. I am not saying they don't give it their best shot but
      even in advanced human medicine sometimes there's just no answer. He also
      told me that MOST vets have NO training on nutrition. I understand that now
      some veterinary schools are starting some nutrition training but anytime I
      hear a vet recommending Science Diet--forget it--he doesn't know about
      feline nutrition. Sorry....it's the truth. You can compare it to you
      eating good, whole, fresh foods (i.e. preparing meals from scratch with good
      ingredients) as opposed to eating Hamburger Helper with all of its
      preservatives.

      If you want some info about HCM cats that have been cured, you might want to
      check "The Whole Cat Journal". I don't have the volume here at work but can
      provide you with it or fax you the article. It provides names of
      veterinarians who have cured HCM with homeopathic medicine and how they did
      it and how, most definitely, it is NOT one size fits all. Bill, a truly
      great vet is open to using whatever modalities to treat their patients.
      Please, please, don't let vet school brainwash you. You can be an awesome
      allopathic vet (like Dr. Mike and my current vet) and still also practice
      holistic medicine. They can work together. I also don't vaccinate my cats
      anymore. My holistic vet said (and this was agreed with by Dr. Mike) "give
      them their FVRCP when babies--the first dose and the booster" and let their
      own immune system kick in after that. Of course we vaccinate children. But
      we don't vaccinate them ANNUALLY with the same thing year after year after
      year. And I promise you giving cats FVRCP, feleuk, AND rabies all at one
      time is severely compromising their immune system. I also must agree on
      switching cats from a poor quality, preservative enhanced commercial diet to
      a raw diet. The results are amazing. My holistic vet said it's one of the
      best treatments for IBD. And guess what? When I first started going to my
      holistic vet, she was not a proponent of raw diets for the same reason many
      mentioned in this group (salmonella). I provided her with a lot of
      literature but she was still skeptical. Then she went to a conference,
      joined an egroup on raw diets, began feeding her cats AND dogs raw and now
      she is a top proponent of raw diets. She has a 19 year old cat with
      diabetes at her clinic. Started feeding raw and was able to substantially
      reduce her insulin. However, if you don't want to feed raw (properly
      supplemented, of course), you can either lightly cook the meats OR you can
      feed one of the higher quality canned foods made from USDA approved human
      grade meats (e.g. Wellness or Azmira to name only two). For anyone who is
      interested, there is a great book entitled "The Nature of Animal Healing"
      written by a traditionally trained vet, Dr. Martin Goldstein. It tells of
      his path to natural feeding and treatment. I highly recommend it for
      aspiring vets. AAFCO does not ensure optimum nutrition. Some treats state
      they meet AAFCO but I wouldn't feed my cat a diet of them. Many AAFCO
      stamped foods contain SALT. Why? Cats do not need a diet supplemented with
      salt. And for our HCM cats, that's the last thing we need. But your point
      is well taken that it sets some sort of standard for those who don't really
      look at feline nutrition.

      I know how vets are trained. I was accepted into vet school but spent a
      summer working with a vet and I just didn't have the emotional strength at
      21 to deal with the people who abused animals, animals being euthanized,
      cats being declawed, etc. I didn't think I could tolerate alot of what vets
      see--maybe I could have. So I will say, I do know the courses you have to
      take and as I've said, I've taught human and animal A&P at the college
      level. Of course vet students study when and why disease starts. But
      sometimes I think there's a broader picture then just focusing on a
      particular organ (for instance) which might be showing symptoms of illness.
      For non-genetic diseases, I think the bigger picture goes to the immune
      system--when it is in balance and maximized, the body systems are as well.
      Since I started treating my own body better and more holistically--eating
      whole, natural foods--no colds, no flu, no illnesses; I'm in much better
      physical shape at 48 than probably 90% of 20 year olds and definitely better
      than I was when I was younger. My cats are the same--oh the amazing
      improvement in their coats, their teeth, their health--everything since we
      changed to a better diet and started using holistic supplements. We rescued
      our oldest cat at 4 weeks and she has travelled the world with us and is now
      20; her blood work just done showed everything in normal range and she is
      just steaming along (knock on wood) maintaining her lifelong weight, eats
      right, has the stool of a young cat--she's amazing. Since she has lived
      longer than any other cat I've had and she was switched to a more holistic
      way of life when she was 10, I have to believe we're doing something right.

      My main point in all of this is--we each need to do what we feel is best for
      our beloved companions. If you only want to treat your cat
      allopathicly--please, do; I respect that 100% and I don't feel you are less
      concerned about your cat than I am about mine. But I have felt in reading
      many threads that those of us who use holistic or homeopathic treatments are
      thought to be using something akin to voodoo and we must not really care
      about our cats if we are not treating them with the tried and true methods.
      Let's just be open-minded to each other. I doubt very seriously that Mr.
      Pepe would have lived as long with as good a quality of life if it weren't
      for his treatment. And my Maxie just had his check up (he was diagnosed
      9/03) and his echo was stable; his bp, heart rate, EKG, blood work, xray all
      "beautiful". We are blessed and not only do I thank my wonderful holistic
      vet and cardiologist who work together but I thank God because he gave these
      people these talents.

      BTW, Bill, even my cardiologist who does not practice holistic medicine, has
      worked fully with my holistic vet and supported all the holistic treatments
      we give Max; likewise, my holistic vet was 100% supportive of adding
      atenolol. Great vets--open-minded.

      Best of luck to you as you pursue your career--I know you must be very
      dedicated to helping animals to have chosen this path--it is truly a career
      of sacrifice of self on behalf of animal companions. And I pray all of you
      with HCM cats will have so many many more joyous moments with them.

      Marjorie
      Sitka, Teddi, Gus, & Max




      Your reply will go to the author of this message. If you feel your reply will benefit the entire group, please change the "To:" line to feline-heart@yahoogroups.com


      Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
      ADVERTISEMENT





      ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
      Yahoo! Groups Links

      a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/feline-heart/

      b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
      feline-heart-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

      c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • William Draper
      - Someone in here told me taurine and crategus is only for dilated hearts and would do worse on a hypotrophic heart -- taurine can t hurt as far as i know.
      Message 2 of 14 , May 28, 2004
        - "Someone in here told me taurine and crategus is only for dilated hearts and would do worse on a hypotrophic heart"
        -- taurine can't hurt as far as i know. it's just an amino acid. i have know idea what crategus is.

        - "asymptomic HCM mild case Nadia who suffered from syncopes about 8 times in 2 months"
        -- you had an HCM animal that had syncopal events? hmm... that is interesting as the heart actually beats stronger in HCM and syncope usually comes from a weakened heart (such as in DCM).

        - "BUT my little wonderful furball is doing much better, I can see it and feel it."
        -- and you know what - this is all that matters in the end!

        bill
        dvm in 2005
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: Iben
        To: HCM ; Marjorie Blaine
        Sent: Friday, May 28, 2004 6:33 AM
        Subject: [FH] Holistic vs allopathic


        I just want to tell that my asymptomic HCM mild case Nadia who suffered from syncopes about 8 times in 2 months after eating grass and vomitting with holistic treatment now is without those terrible accidents and doing so good ( anti jinx ). Every morning she gets half an omega 3+6+9 fish oils pill I cut open and puts on her paw for her to lick, a small piece of taurine pill and Crategus homeopathic drops nicnamed "the old heart safer". My vet is wonderful too and pratices both traditional and holistic medicine and her experience is that the holistic lasts longer too. I'm not to start a discussion over this issue just stating Nadias great results. Someone in here told me taurine and crategus is only for dilated hearts and would do worse on a hypotrophic heart and we haven't had a new ultrasound done yet, BUT my little wonderful furball is doing much better, I can see it and feel it.

        Iben & Nadia


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



        Your reply will go to the author of this message. If you feel your reply will benefit the entire group, please change the "To:" line to feline-heart@yahoogroups.com


        Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
        ADVERTISEMENT





        ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
        Yahoo! Groups Links

        a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/feline-heart/

        b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
        feline-heart-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

        c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Shane Fox Luper
        Hi Bill ( and everyone else who s been contributing to this topic) The last bit of this note that you wrote is interesting. I have been to many vets over the
        Message 3 of 14 , May 28, 2004
          Hi Bill ( and everyone else who's been contributing to this topic)

          The last bit of this note that you wrote is interesting. I have been to many
          vets over the years, holistic and allopathic. More recently, I was referred
          to a holistic vet for one of our cats with teeth problems. This vet was one
          of a few holistic vets who does perform surgeries. And I knew our kitty
          would need teeth pulled. And knowing what I know with anesthesia-free teeth
          cleaning, I thought I knew a thing or two. Well, I didn't. This vet, a
          horrible quack, did ridiculous things to our cat. Have you heard of
          "Bio-kinetics", well he tried using this "gun" type thing that Chiropractors
          use on their patients on her for a "neck problems" he thought she had, only
          he touched his hand to the area on her back and held the gun to his own
          neck! He said it was working "THROUGH" him!!! My husband and I were
          disgusted really. The guy wound up pulling several teeth in the end and only
          giving her an anti-biotic shot -nothing orally, nor any pain meds. She was
          sick for a month with swollen glands that would not go down so we took her
          to our regular vet. In a nutshell, I learned that for proper tooth removal
          on a pet, you need to do dental x-rays in order to see everything and also,
          in order to remove the ROOT of the tooth! I was clueless about this, but I
          learned quickly. The quack vet never did x-rays and wound up leaving root
          which caused the swollen glands. So in addition to paying the quacks bill of
          $1000.00 we had to pay the other vet to correct the quack's mistake. It
          really chapped my hide, but now, at least I know.



          What it really boils down to for me is that I believe that with what I have
          experienced, there are some really good holistic vets and I know a few good
          ones) out there, and some real quacks that people should just stay away
          from.



          I.M.H.O.



          Shane





          _____

          From: William Draper [mailto:wedraper@...]
          Sent: Friday, May 28, 2004 10:29 AM
          To: feline-heart@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [FH] Holistic vs allopathic



          - "And I am sorry, Bill, but I must patently disagree with you and agree
          with Deena that many vets, GOOD vets, will prescribe for the symptom and not
          the problem"
          -- then they are practicing incorrectly. that is NOT the way we are trained
          to treat disease.

          - "We tried theophylline and made household changes--got rid of silica based
          litter, got a HEPA air purifier, etc. No help. He wanted to put her on
          prednisone. I'm sorry, but I won't take
          steroids and I will not put my cats on them"
          -- hmm, it would seem that this statement refutes my previous argument.
          however, steroids have been the "magic bullet" for many animals with many
          different diseases. for me it definitely won't be a first-line drug for
          most things (though it is essential in things like shock therapy and auto
          immune diseases), but i will probably adhere to the motto "never let an
          animal die without the benefit of steroids".

          - it has come to my attention that things i filed in my brain under "adjunct
          therapy" are actually pseudo-holistic remedies. things like omega fatty
          acids and taurine as nutritional supplements for certain diseases i agree
          with. my problem is people using herbal extracts with ingredients that make
          no sense. giving a cat with HCM a positive inotrope can not be a good idea.
          that goes against everything we know about the pathogenesis of the disease.
          however, giving an animal with an inflammatory problem omega fatty acids (as
          they can be incorporated into the cell membrane and replace the inflammatory
          precursors), now that makes sense to me. i WILL do some more reading into
          this, as it intrigues me. i reiterate that i am all for the best treatment
          options for my future clients. i just can't abide by the "my mom's best
          friend's hairstylist gave her cat substance A and it got over disease X".
          this is how holistic medicine seems to be propagate to me. we have had a
          few holistic vets come to school to give lectures, and they just don't
          impress me. their knowledge of basic disease processes is lacking, and they
          seem to have a standard remedy for every disease.

          bill
          dvm in 2005
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: Marjorie Blaine
          To: HCM
          Sent: Friday, May 28, 2004 3:54 AM
          Subject: [FH] Holistic vs allopathic


          Well, I suppose I'd like to throw my two cents into the fray. I've had
          cats
          since I was 6 years old--42 years now--and I also have a Master's Degree
          in
          Wildlife Biology which is not a veterinary degree but I have studied and
          taught human and animal anatomy and physiology and was accepted into vet
          school (more on that later). I've done research, understand about large
          sample sizes (one of my beefs is human studies which used 300 people but
          make gross generalizations). I've volunteered at a no-kill cat shelter
          for
          the past 7 years and seen all kinds of things. I've studied feline
          nutrition diligently the past several years. I'm not saying any of this
          to
          pat my own back but just so you'll know I'm not a novice cat person who
          has
          no idea about scientific research or veterinary science, etc.

          After feeding my cats Science Diet for years, vaccinating annually
          w/FVRCP,
          feleuk, and rabies and having lost a cat to vaccination site sarcoma, I
          have
          a little experience with this stuff. The ONLY treatment which seemed to
          truly help my cat was holistic. It gave us 4 months of good quality life
          with him that our oncologist and regular vet said we'd never have. I
          believe firmly in a high-quality diet (not Science Diet, Iams, Nutro, etc)
          and using holistic medicine knowing there are some cases where allopathic
          is
          necessary (eg my Max is on atenolol). I have a fabulous vet who practices
          both types of medicine altho she firmly believes holistic is the best way
          of
          treating an animal and human. Sarah mentions she likes to base treatment
          of
          her cat with a critical illness on scientific studies. Please correct me
          if
          I'm wrong but there are no definitive studies with large sample sizes that
          indicate atenolol is effective in cats. However, the majority of us use
          it
          to decrease the symptoms of this horrible disease. We know it won't cure
          them. I do agree there are holistic treatments which may work for humans
          but not animals--that's why you need a vet who KNOWS what they are doing
          when you are using holistic or homeopathic treatment. I would never
          undertake this on my own. I also don't believe there is always an
          "efficacious" way to deal with a particular illness. Genetically, we are
          all different and our bodies may react differently to different substances
          (same reason why I don't believe you can just throw estrogen at a
          peri-menopausal or menopausal woman--our hormone levels can be quite
          different and what one needs, another may not). And I am sorry, Bill, but
          I
          must patently disagree with you and agree with Deena that many vets, GOOD
          vets, will prescribe for the symptom and not the problem. Many good human
          doctors do the same. Example--I was working with a fantastic vet (I
          interviewed 20 vets before I settled on him--let's call him Dr. Mike). My
          elderly cat developed asthma. We tried theophylline and made household
          changes--got rid of silica based litter, got a HEPA air purifier, etc. No
          help. He wanted to put her on prednisone. I'm sorry, but I won't take
          steroids and I will not put my cats on them. He understood 150% and said,
          let's take this to the holistic vet (who is my current vet). We did;
          using
          herbs and a Standard Process supplement, my cat quit coughing--has not had
          an asthma attack in 5 years--and the first vet cannot believe how her
          lungs
          sound (quiet as can be) compared to how they started out sounding. Dr.
          Mike
          ( a top graduate of CSU by the way--a premier vet school) told me that
          sometimes you don't have a choice as much as you want to address the
          underlying cause. I am not saying they don't give it their best shot but
          even in advanced human medicine sometimes there's just no answer. He also
          told me that MOST vets have NO training on nutrition. I understand that
          now
          some veterinary schools are starting some nutrition training but anytime I
          hear a vet recommending Science Diet--forget it--he doesn't know about
          feline nutrition. Sorry....it's the truth. You can compare it to you
          eating good, whole, fresh foods (i.e. preparing meals from scratch with
          good
          ingredients) as opposed to eating Hamburger Helper with all of its
          preservatives.

          If you want some info about HCM cats that have been cured, you might want
          to
          check "The Whole Cat Journal". I don't have the volume here at work but
          can
          provide you with it or fax you the article. It provides names of
          veterinarians who have cured HCM with homeopathic medicine and how they
          did
          it and how, most definitely, it is NOT one size fits all. Bill, a truly
          great vet is open to using whatever modalities to treat their patients.
          Please, please, don't let vet school brainwash you. You can be an awesome
          allopathic vet (like Dr. Mike and my current vet) and still also practice
          holistic medicine. They can work together. I also don't vaccinate my
          cats
          anymore. My holistic vet said (and this was agreed with by Dr. Mike)
          "give
          them their FVRCP when babies--the first dose and the booster" and let
          their
          own immune system kick in after that. Of course we vaccinate children.
          But
          we don't vaccinate them ANNUALLY with the same thing year after year after
          year. And I promise you giving cats FVRCP, feleuk, AND rabies all at one
          time is severely compromising their immune system. I also must agree on
          switching cats from a poor quality, preservative enhanced commercial diet
          to
          a raw diet. The results are amazing. My holistic vet said it's one of
          the
          best treatments for IBD. And guess what? When I first started going to my
          holistic vet, she was not a proponent of raw diets for the same reason
          many
          mentioned in this group (salmonella). I provided her with a lot of
          literature but she was still skeptical. Then she went to a conference,
          joined an egroup on raw diets, began feeding her cats AND dogs raw and now
          she is a top proponent of raw diets. She has a 19 year old cat with
          diabetes at her clinic. Started feeding raw and was able to substantially
          reduce her insulin. However, if you don't want to feed raw (properly
          supplemented, of course), you can either lightly cook the meats OR you can
          feed one of the higher quality canned foods made from USDA approved human
          grade meats (e.g. Wellness or Azmira to name only two). For anyone who is
          interested, there is a great book entitled "The Nature of Animal Healing"
          written by a traditionally trained vet, Dr. Martin Goldstein. It tells of
          his path to natural feeding and treatment. I highly recommend it for
          aspiring vets. AAFCO does not ensure optimum nutrition. Some treats
          state
          they meet AAFCO but I wouldn't feed my cat a diet of them. Many AAFCO
          stamped foods contain SALT. Why? Cats do not need a diet supplemented
          with
          salt. And for our HCM cats, that's the last thing we need. But your
          point
          is well taken that it sets some sort of standard for those who don't
          really
          look at feline nutrition.

          I know how vets are trained. I was accepted into vet school but spent a
          summer working with a vet and I just didn't have the emotional strength at
          21 to deal with the people who abused animals, animals being euthanized,
          cats being declawed, etc. I didn't think I could tolerate alot of what
          vets
          see--maybe I could have. So I will say, I do know the courses you have to
          take and as I've said, I've taught human and animal A&P at the college
          level. Of course vet students study when and why disease starts. But
          sometimes I think there's a broader picture then just focusing on a
          particular organ (for instance) which might be showing symptoms of
          illness.
          For non-genetic diseases, I think the bigger picture goes to the immune
          system--when it is in balance and maximized, the body systems are as well.
          Since I started treating my own body better and more holistically--eating
          whole, natural foods--no colds, no flu, no illnesses; I'm in much better
          physical shape at 48 than probably 90% of 20 year olds and definitely
          better
          than I was when I was younger. My cats are the same--oh the amazing
          improvement in their coats, their teeth, their health--everything since we
          changed to a better diet and started using holistic supplements. We
          rescued
          our oldest cat at 4 weeks and she has travelled the world with us and is
          now
          20; her blood work just done showed everything in normal range and she is
          just steaming along (knock on wood) maintaining her lifelong weight, eats
          right, has the stool of a young cat--she's amazing. Since she has lived
          longer than any other cat I've had and she was switched to a more holistic
          way of life when she was 10, I have to believe we're doing something
          right.

          My main point in all of this is--we each need to do what we feel is best
          for
          our beloved companions. If you only want to treat your cat
          allopathicly--please, do; I respect that 100% and I don't feel you are
          less
          concerned about your cat than I am about mine. But I have felt in reading
          many threads that those of us who use holistic or homeopathic treatments
          are
          thought to be using something akin to voodoo and we must not really care
          about our cats if we are not treating them with the tried and true
          methods.
          Let's just be open-minded to each other. I doubt very seriously that Mr.
          Pepe would have lived as long with as good a quality of life if it weren't
          for his treatment. And my Maxie just had his check up (he was diagnosed
          9/03) and his echo was stable; his bp, heart rate, EKG, blood work, xray
          all
          "beautiful". We are blessed and not only do I thank my wonderful holistic
          vet and cardiologist who work together but I thank God because he gave
          these
          people these talents.

          BTW, Bill, even my cardiologist who does not practice holistic medicine,
          has
          worked fully with my holistic vet and supported all the holistic
          treatments
          we give Max; likewise, my holistic vet was 100% supportive of adding
          atenolol. Great vets--open-minded.

          Best of luck to you as you pursue your career--I know you must be very
          dedicated to helping animals to have chosen this path--it is truly a
          career
          of sacrifice of self on behalf of animal companions. And I pray all of
          you
          with HCM cats will have so many many more joyous moments with them.

          Marjorie
          Sitka, Teddi, Gus, & Max




          Your reply will go to the author of this message. If you feel your reply
          will benefit the entire group, please change the "To:" line to
          feline-heart@yahoogroups.com


          Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
          ADVERTISEMENT





          ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
          --
          Yahoo! Groups Links

          a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/feline-heart/

          b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
          feline-heart-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

          c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.




          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



          Your reply will go to the author of this message. If you feel your reply
          will benefit the entire group, please change the "To:" line to
          feline-heart@yahoogroups.com






          Yahoo! Groups Sponsor



          ADVERTISEMENT

          <http://rd.yahoo.com/SIG=129tes73g/M=295196.4901138.6071305.3001176/D=groups
          /S=1707296857:HM/EXP=1085855402/A=2128215/R=0/SIG=10se96mf6/*http:/companion
          .yahoo.com> click here



          <http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=295196.4901138.6071305.3001176/D=groups/S=
          :HM/A=2128215/rand=841112189>



          _____

          Yahoo! Groups Links

          * To visit your group on the web, go to:
          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/feline-heart/

          * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
          feline-heart-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          <mailto:feline-heart-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>

          * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
          <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service.



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Iben
          Better find a holistic vet who is both holistic and a normal vet! Iben & Nadia ... From: Shane Fox Luper To: William Draper ; feline-heart@yahoogroups.com
          Message 4 of 14 , May 28, 2004
            Better find a holistic vet who is both holistic and a "normal" vet!

            Iben & Nadia
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: Shane Fox Luper
            To: 'William Draper' ; feline-heart@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Saturday, May 29, 2004 1:32 AM
            Subject: RE: [FH] Holistic vs allopathic


            Hi Bill ( and everyone else who's been contributing to this topic)

            The last bit of this note that you wrote is interesting. I have been to many
            vets over the years, holistic and allopathic. More recently, I was referred
            to a holistic vet for one of our cats with teeth problems. This vet was one
            of a few holistic vets who does perform surgeries. And I knew our kitty
            would need teeth pulled. And knowing what I know with anesthesia-free teeth
            cleaning, I thought I knew a thing or two. Well, I didn't. This vet, a
            horrible quack, did ridiculous things to our cat. Have you heard of
            "Bio-kinetics", well he tried using this "gun" type thing that Chiropractors
            use on their patients on her for a "neck problems" he thought she had, only
            he touched his hand to the area on her back and held the gun to his own
            neck! He said it was working "THROUGH" him!!! My husband and I were
            disgusted really. The guy wound up pulling several teeth in the end and only
            giving her an anti-biotic shot -nothing orally, nor any pain meds. She was
            sick for a month with swollen glands that would not go down so we took her
            to our regular vet. In a nutshell, I learned that for proper tooth removal
            on a pet, you need to do dental x-rays in order to see everything and also,
            in order to remove the ROOT of the tooth! I was clueless about this, but I
            learned quickly. The quack vet never did x-rays and wound up leaving root
            which caused the swollen glands. So in addition to paying the quacks bill of
            $1000.00 we had to pay the other vet to correct the quack's mistake. It
            really chapped my hide, but now, at least I know.



            What it really boils down to for me is that I believe that with what I have
            experienced, there are some really good holistic vets and I know a few good
            ones) out there, and some real quacks that people should just stay away
            from.



            I.M.H.O.



            Shane





            _____

            From: William Draper [mailto:wedraper@...]
            Sent: Friday, May 28, 2004 10:29 AM
            To: feline-heart@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [FH] Holistic vs allopathic



            - "And I am sorry, Bill, but I must patently disagree with you and agree
            with Deena that many vets, GOOD vets, will prescribe for the symptom and not
            the problem"
            -- then they are practicing incorrectly. that is NOT the way we are trained
            to treat disease.

            - "We tried theophylline and made household changes--got rid of silica based
            litter, got a HEPA air purifier, etc. No help. He wanted to put her on
            prednisone. I'm sorry, but I won't take
            steroids and I will not put my cats on them"
            -- hmm, it would seem that this statement refutes my previous argument.
            however, steroids have been the "magic bullet" for many animals with many
            different diseases. for me it definitely won't be a first-line drug for
            most things (though it is essential in things like shock therapy and auto
            immune diseases), but i will probably adhere to the motto "never let an
            animal die without the benefit of steroids".

            - it has come to my attention that things i filed in my brain under "adjunct
            therapy" are actually pseudo-holistic remedies. things like omega fatty
            acids and taurine as nutritional supplements for certain diseases i agree
            with. my problem is people using herbal extracts with ingredients that make
            no sense. giving a cat with HCM a positive inotrope can not be a good idea.
            that goes against everything we know about the pathogenesis of the disease.
            however, giving an animal with an inflammatory problem omega fatty acids (as
            they can be incorporated into the cell membrane and replace the inflammatory
            precursors), now that makes sense to me. i WILL do some more reading into
            this, as it intrigues me. i reiterate that i am all for the best treatment
            options for my future clients. i just can't abide by the "my mom's best
            friend's hairstylist gave her cat substance A and it got over disease X".
            this is how holistic medicine seems to be propagate to me. we have had a
            few holistic vets come to school to give lectures, and they just don't
            impress me. their knowledge of basic disease processes is lacking, and they
            seem to have a standard remedy for every disease.

            bill
            dvm in 2005
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: Marjorie Blaine
            To: HCM
            Sent: Friday, May 28, 2004 3:54 AM
            Subject: [FH] Holistic vs allopathic


            Well, I suppose I'd like to throw my two cents into the fray. I've had
            cats
            since I was 6 years old--42 years now--and I also have a Master's Degree
            in
            Wildlife Biology which is not a veterinary degree but I have studied and
            taught human and animal anatomy and physiology and was accepted into vet
            school (more on that later). I've done research, understand about large
            sample sizes (one of my beefs is human studies which used 300 people but
            make gross generalizations). I've volunteered at a no-kill cat shelter
            for
            the past 7 years and seen all kinds of things. I've studied feline
            nutrition diligently the past several years. I'm not saying any of this
            to
            pat my own back but just so you'll know I'm not a novice cat person who
            has
            no idea about scientific research or veterinary science, etc.

            After feeding my cats Science Diet for years, vaccinating annually
            w/FVRCP,
            feleuk, and rabies and having lost a cat to vaccination site sarcoma, I
            have
            a little experience with this stuff. The ONLY treatment which seemed to
            truly help my cat was holistic. It gave us 4 months of good quality life
            with him that our oncologist and regular vet said we'd never have. I
            believe firmly in a high-quality diet (not Science Diet, Iams, Nutro, etc)
            and using holistic medicine knowing there are some cases where allopathic
            is
            necessary (eg my Max is on atenolol). I have a fabulous vet who practices
            both types of medicine altho she firmly believes holistic is the best way
            of
            treating an animal and human. Sarah mentions she likes to base treatment
            of
            her cat with a critical illness on scientific studies. Please correct me
            if
            I'm wrong but there are no definitive studies with large sample sizes that
            indicate atenolol is effective in cats. However, the majority of us use
            it
            to decrease the symptoms of this horrible disease. We know it won't cure
            them. I do agree there are holistic treatments which may work for humans
            but not animals--that's why you need a vet who KNOWS what they are doing
            when you are using holistic or homeopathic treatment. I would never
            undertake this on my own. I also don't believe there is always an
            "efficacious" way to deal with a particular illness. Genetically, we are
            all different and our bodies may react differently to different substances
            (same reason why I don't believe you can just throw estrogen at a
            peri-menopausal or menopausal woman--our hormone levels can be quite
            different and what one needs, another may not). And I am sorry, Bill, but
            I
            must patently disagree with you and agree with Deena that many vets, GOOD
            vets, will prescribe for the symptom and not the problem. Many good human
            doctors do the same. Example--I was working with a fantastic vet (I
            interviewed 20 vets before I settled on him--let's call him Dr. Mike). My
            elderly cat developed asthma. We tried theophylline and made household
            changes--got rid of silica based litter, got a HEPA air purifier, etc. No
            help. He wanted to put her on prednisone. I'm sorry, but I won't take
            steroids and I will not put my cats on them. He understood 150% and said,
            let's take this to the holistic vet (who is my current vet). We did;
            using
            herbs and a Standard Process supplement, my cat quit coughing--has not had
            an asthma attack in 5 years--and the first vet cannot believe how her
            lungs
            sound (quiet as can be) compared to how they started out sounding. Dr.
            Mike
            ( a top graduate of CSU by the way--a premier vet school) told me that
            sometimes you don't have a choice as much as you want to address the
            underlying cause. I am not saying they don't give it their best shot but
            even in advanced human medicine sometimes there's just no answer. He also
            told me that MOST vets have NO training on nutrition. I understand that
            now
            some veterinary schools are starting some nutrition training but anytime I
            hear a vet recommending Science Diet--forget it--he doesn't know about
            feline nutrition. Sorry....it's the truth. You can compare it to you
            eating good, whole, fresh foods (i.e. preparing meals from scratch with
            good
            ingredients) as opposed to eating Hamburger Helper with all of its
            preservatives.

            If you want some info about HCM cats that have been cured, you might want
            to
            check "The Whole Cat Journal". I don't have the volume here at work but
            can
            provide you with it or fax you the article. It provides names of
            veterinarians who have cured HCM with homeopathic medicine and how they
            did
            it and how, most definitely, it is NOT one size fits all. Bill, a truly
            great vet is open to using whatever modalities to treat their patients.
            Please, please, don't let vet school brainwash you. You can be an awesome
            allopathic vet (like Dr. Mike and my current vet) and still also practice
            holistic medicine. They can work together. I also don't vaccinate my
            cats
            anymore. My holistic vet said (and this was agreed with by Dr. Mike)
            "give
            them their FVRCP when babies--the first dose and the booster" and let
            their
            own immune system kick in after that. Of course we vaccinate children.
            But
            we don't vaccinate them ANNUALLY with the same thing year after year after
            year. And I promise you giving cats FVRCP, feleuk, AND rabies all at one
            time is severely compromising their immune system. I also must agree on
            switching cats from a poor quality, preservative enhanced commercial diet
            to
            a raw diet. The results are amazing. My holistic vet said it's one of
            the
            best treatments for IBD. And guess what? When I first started going to my
            holistic vet, she was not a proponent of raw diets for the same reason
            many
            mentioned in this group (salmonella). I provided her with a lot of
            literature but she was still skeptical. Then she went to a conference,
            joined an egroup on raw diets, began feeding her cats AND dogs raw and now
            she is a top proponent of raw diets. She has a 19 year old cat with
            diabetes at her clinic. Started feeding raw and was able to substantially
            reduce her insulin. However, if you don't want to feed raw (properly
            supplemented, of course), you can either lightly cook the meats OR you can
            feed one of the higher quality canned foods made from USDA approved human
            grade meats (e.g. Wellness or Azmira to name only two). For anyone who is
            interested, there is a great book entitled "The Nature of Animal Healing"
            written by a traditionally trained vet, Dr. Martin Goldstein. It tells of
            his path to natural feeding and treatment. I highly recommend it for
            aspiring vets. AAFCO does not ensure optimum nutrition. Some treats
            state
            they meet AAFCO but I wouldn't feed my cat a diet of them. Many AAFCO
            stamped foods contain SALT. Why? Cats do not need a diet supplemented
            with
            salt. And for our HCM cats, that's the last thing we need. But your
            point
            is well taken that it sets some sort of standard for those who don't
            really
            look at feline nutrition.

            I know how vets are trained. I was accepted into vet school but spent a
            summer working with a vet and I just didn't have the emotional strength at
            21 to deal with the people who abused animals, animals being euthanized,
            cats being declawed, etc. I didn't think I could tolerate alot of what
            vets
            see--maybe I could have. So I will say, I do know the courses you have to
            take and as I've said, I've taught human and animal A&P at the college
            level. Of course vet students study when and why disease starts. But
            sometimes I think there's a broader picture then just focusing on a
            particular organ (for instance) which might be showing symptoms of
            illness.
            For non-genetic diseases, I think the bigger picture goes to the immune
            system--when it is in balance and maximized, the body systems are as well.
            Since I started treating my own body better and more holistically--eating
            whole, natural foods--no colds, no flu, no illnesses; I'm in much better
            physical shape at 48 than probably 90% of 20 year olds and definitely
            better
            than I was when I was younger. My cats are the same--oh the amazing
            improvement in their coats, their teeth, their health--everything since we
            changed to a better diet and started using holistic supplements. We
            rescued
            our oldest cat at 4 weeks and she has travelled the world with us and is
            now
            20; her blood work just done showed everything in normal range and she is
            just steaming along (knock on wood) maintaining her lifelong weight, eats
            right, has the stool of a young cat--she's amazing. Since she has lived
            longer than any other cat I've had and she was switched to a more holistic
            way of life when she was 10, I have to believe we're doing something
            right.

            My main point in all of this is--we each need to do what we feel is best
            for
            our beloved companions. If you only want to treat your cat
            allopathicly--please, do; I respect that 100% and I don't feel you are
            less
            concerned about your cat than I am about mine. But I have felt in reading
            many threads that those of us who use holistic or homeopathic treatments
            are
            thought to be using something akin to voodoo and we must not really care
            about our cats if we are not treating them with the tried and true
            methods.
            Let's just be open-minded to each other. I doubt very seriously that Mr.
            Pepe would have lived as long with as good a quality of life if it weren't
            for his treatment. And my Maxie just had his check up (he was diagnosed
            9/03) and his echo was stable; his bp, heart rate, EKG, blood work, xray
            all
            "beautiful". We are blessed and not only do I thank my wonderful holistic
            vet and cardiologist who work together but I thank God because he gave
            these
            people these talents.

            BTW, Bill, even my cardiologist who does not practice holistic medicine,
            has
            worked fully with my holistic vet and supported all the holistic
            treatments
            we give Max; likewise, my holistic vet was 100% supportive of adding
            atenolol. Great vets--open-minded.

            Best of luck to you as you pursue your career--I know you must be very
            dedicated to helping animals to have chosen this path--it is truly a
            career
            of sacrifice of self on behalf of animal companions. And I pray all of
            you
            with HCM cats will have so many many more joyous moments with them.

            Marjorie
            Sitka, Teddi, Gus, & Max




            Your reply will go to the author of this message. If you feel your reply
            will benefit the entire group, please change the "To:" line to
            feline-heart@yahoogroups.com


            Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
            ADVERTISEMENT





            ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
            --
            Yahoo! Groups Links

            a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/feline-heart/

            b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            feline-heart-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

            c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.




            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



            Your reply will go to the author of this message. If you feel your reply
            will benefit the entire group, please change the "To:" line to
            feline-heart@yahoogroups.com






            Yahoo! Groups Sponsor



            ADVERTISEMENT

            <http://rd.yahoo.com/SIG=129tes73g/M=295196.4901138.6071305.3001176/D=groups
            /S=1707296857:HM/EXP=1085855402/A=2128215/R=0/SIG=10se96mf6/*http:/companion
            .yahoo.com> click here



            <http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=295196.4901138.6071305.3001176/D=groups/S=
            :HM/A=2128215/rand=841112189>



            _____

            Yahoo! Groups Links

            * To visit your group on the web, go to:
            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/feline-heart/

            * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            feline-heart-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            <mailto:feline-heart-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>

            * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
            <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service.



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



            Your reply will go to the author of this message. If you feel your reply will benefit the entire group, please change the "To:" line to feline-heart@yahoogroups.com


            Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
            ADVERTISEMENT





            ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
            Yahoo! Groups Links

            a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/feline-heart/

            b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            feline-heart-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

            c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Deena
            ... wrote: i have know idea what crategus is. ... Hey Bill & others, I have my friendly face on...so don t be afraid to keep reading. I think
            Message 5 of 14 , May 29, 2004
              --- In feline-heart@yahoogroups.com, "William Draper"
              <wedraper@e...> wrote: i have know idea what crategus is.
              >
              Hey Bill & others,

              I have my friendly face on...so don't be afraid to keep reading.

              I think she's talking about the homeopathic version of hawthorn.
              I understand your concern regarding hawthorn, since logic indicates
              it should be harmful. Yet, it gets listed in pretty much every
              holistic books as being beneficial for heart kitties.

              This is how it was explained to me by Mary Tilford DVM, the wife of
              Greg Tilford the "Herbs for Pets" guy, when I asked the same
              question. I'm paraphrasing here, so don't quote me. "When
              you single out the active ingredient in hawthorn, it may appear
              harmful for HCM. But when you use it in it's whole form, it seems
              to act as a very strong heart conditioner and BP regulator. Mother
              nature builds in these checks & balances that sciences is unable to
              duplicate in a lab."

              This is why I always try to use a whole food supplement rather than
              just the active ingredient, if possible. For example, egg whites
              are known to deplete biotin. But when you include the yoke & shell,
              eggs provide the #1 bioavailable food for a cat. So I try to always
              feed whole foods figuring if Mother Nature didn't want wolves to eat
              egg whites, she would have taught them how to use an egg separator.
              Mary Tilford seemed very approachable when I talked to her and may
              take your call. I'm sure she can explain this better than I.

              Based on my personal experience with hawthorn, I found it's one of
              the herbs you should NOT be fooling around with unless instucted by
              a qualified practitioner. Especially if a cat has severe heart
              disease. Initially, Mr Pepe tested very negative to hawthorn, but
              later tested very strong. What caused the change? My guess is that
              when his CHF was very severe, whatever hawthorne does would have
              made him worse. When he got the fluid under control and his
              breathing was stable, his heart was able to reap the benefit of
              hawthorne, so it tested "strongly beneficial" for him.

              This is a perfect example of why you do not want to treat heart
              kitties holistically based on one persons experience or by reading
              one book. I hear your frustration with this practice. My mother-in-
              law swears that if it appears in Ladies Home Journal that it HAS to
              be medical fact. For holistic treatment to be effective (and safe),
              it MUST be personalized to the individual patient's needs. Because
              our cells change on a daily basis, theoretically treatments can
              change too.

              If you want to use holistic medicine on a heart kitty....please,
              please, please do so while working with a qualified practitioner.
              As Shane said, there are many bad holistic vets out there. There
              are also some very talented ones. The same goes for MD's,
              DVM's, DDS's, etc. You must have a healthcare professional that you
              are comfortable with and trust.

              I'm not trying to push holistic medicine on anyone. I'm
              just trying to explain some of the theories to those who are
              interested in learning about it.
            • shelley
              I have had many dentals done on my cats over the years and not once have I had a vet do xrays first, in fact I have not heard of it being done. As for your
              Message 6 of 14 , May 29, 2004
                I have had many dentals done on my cats over the years and not once have I had a vet do xrays first, in fact I have not heard of it being done.

                As for your comment about quack holistic vets I think the same can be said for some allopathic vets out there.

                shelley
                ----- Original Message -----
                From: Shane Fox Luper
                To: 'William Draper' ; feline-heart@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Friday, May 28, 2004 5:32 PM
                Subject: RE: [FH] Holistic vs allopathic


                Hi Bill ( and everyone else who's been contributing to this topic)

                The last bit of this note that you wrote is interesting. I have been to many
                vets over the years, holistic and allopathic. More recently, I was referred
                to a holistic vet for one of our cats with teeth problems. This vet was one
                of a few holistic vets who does perform surgeries. And I knew our kitty
                would need teeth pulled. And knowing what I know with anesthesia-free teeth
                cleaning, I thought I knew a thing or two. Well, I didn't. This vet, a
                horrible quack, did ridiculous things to our cat. Have you heard of
                "Bio-kinetics", well he tried using this "gun" type thing that Chiropractors
                use on their patients on her for a "neck problems" he thought she had, only
                he touched his hand to the area on her back and held the gun to his own
                neck! He said it was working "THROUGH" him!!! My husband and I were
                disgusted really. The guy wound up pulling several teeth in the end and only
                giving her an anti-biotic shot -nothing orally, nor any pain meds. She was
                sick for a month with swollen glands that would not go down so we took her
                to our regular vet. In a nutshell, I learned that for proper tooth removal
                on a pet, you need to do dental x-rays in order to see everything and also,
                in order to remove the ROOT of the tooth! I was clueless about this, but I
                learned quickly. The quack vet never did x-rays and wound up leaving root
                which caused the swollen glands. So in addition to paying the quacks bill of
                $1000.00 we had to pay the other vet to correct the quack's mistake. It
                really chapped my hide, but now, at least I know.



                What it really boils down to for me is that I believe that with what I have
                experienced, there are some really good holistic vets and I know a few good
                ones) out there, and some real quacks that people should just stay away
                from.



                I.M.H.O.



                Shane





                _____

                From: William Draper [mailto:wedraper@...]
                Sent: Friday, May 28, 2004 10:29 AM
                To: feline-heart@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [FH] Holistic vs allopathic



                - "And I am sorry, Bill, but I must patently disagree with you and agree
                with Deena that many vets, GOOD vets, will prescribe for the symptom and not
                the problem"
                -- then they are practicing incorrectly. that is NOT the way we are trained
                to treat disease.

                - "We tried theophylline and made household changes--got rid of silica based
                litter, got a HEPA air purifier, etc. No help. He wanted to put her on
                prednisone. I'm sorry, but I won't take
                steroids and I will not put my cats on them"
                -- hmm, it would seem that this statement refutes my previous argument.
                however, steroids have been the "magic bullet" for many animals with many
                different diseases. for me it definitely won't be a first-line drug for
                most things (though it is essential in things like shock therapy and auto
                immune diseases), but i will probably adhere to the motto "never let an
                animal die without the benefit of steroids".

                - it has come to my attention that things i filed in my brain under "adjunct
                therapy" are actually pseudo-holistic remedies. things like omega fatty
                acids and taurine as nutritional supplements for certain diseases i agree
                with. my problem is people using herbal extracts with ingredients that make
                no sense. giving a cat with HCM a positive inotrope can not be a good idea.
                that goes against everything we know about the pathogenesis of the disease.
                however, giving an animal with an inflammatory problem omega fatty acids (as
                they can be incorporated into the cell membrane and replace the inflammatory
                precursors), now that makes sense to me. i WILL do some more reading into
                this, as it intrigues me. i reiterate that i am all for the best treatment
                options for my future clients. i just can't abide by the "my mom's best
                friend's hairstylist gave her cat substance A and it got over disease X".
                this is how holistic medicine seems to be propagate to me. we have had a
                few holistic vets come to school to give lectures, and they just don't
                impress me. their knowledge of basic disease processes is lacking, and they
                seem to have a standard remedy for every disease.

                bill
                dvm in 2005
                ----- Original Message -----
                From: Marjorie Blaine
                To: HCM
                Sent: Friday, May 28, 2004 3:54 AM
                Subject: [FH] Holistic vs allopathic


                Well, I suppose I'd like to throw my two cents into the fray. I've had
                cats
                since I was 6 years old--42 years now--and I also have a Master's Degree
                in
                Wildlife Biology which is not a veterinary degree but I have studied and
                taught human and animal anatomy and physiology and was accepted into vet
                school (more on that later). I've done research, understand about large
                sample sizes (one of my beefs is human studies which used 300 people but
                make gross generalizations). I've volunteered at a no-kill cat shelter
                for
                the past 7 years and seen all kinds of things. I've studied feline
                nutrition diligently the past several years. I'm not saying any of this
                to
                pat my own back but just so you'll know I'm not a novice cat person who
                has
                no idea about scientific research or veterinary science, etc.

                After feeding my cats Science Diet for years, vaccinating annually
                w/FVRCP,
                feleuk, and rabies and having lost a cat to vaccination site sarcoma, I
                have
                a little experience with this stuff. The ONLY treatment which seemed to
                truly help my cat was holistic. It gave us 4 months of good quality life
                with him that our oncologist and regular vet said we'd never have. I
                believe firmly in a high-quality diet (not Science Diet, Iams, Nutro, etc)
                and using holistic medicine knowing there are some cases where allopathic
                is
                necessary (eg my Max is on atenolol). I have a fabulous vet who practices
                both types of medicine altho she firmly believes holistic is the best way
                of
                treating an animal and human. Sarah mentions she likes to base treatment
                of
                her cat with a critical illness on scientific studies. Please correct me
                if
                I'm wrong but there are no definitive studies with large sample sizes that
                indicate atenolol is effective in cats. However, the majority of us use
                it
                to decrease the symptoms of this horrible disease. We know it won't cure
                them. I do agree there are holistic treatments which may work for humans
                but not animals--that's why you need a vet who KNOWS what they are doing
                when you are using holistic or homeopathic treatment. I would never
                undertake this on my own. I also don't believe there is always an
                "efficacious" way to deal with a particular illness. Genetically, we are
                all different and our bodies may react differently to different substances
                (same reason why I don't believe you can just throw estrogen at a
                peri-menopausal or menopausal woman--our hormone levels can be quite
                different and what one needs, another may not). And I am sorry, Bill, but
                I
                must patently disagree with you and agree with Deena that many vets, GOOD
                vets, will prescribe for the symptom and not the problem. Many good human
                doctors do the same. Example--I was working with a fantastic vet (I
                interviewed 20 vets before I settled on him--let's call him Dr. Mike). My
                elderly cat developed asthma. We tried theophylline and made household
                changes--got rid of silica based litter, got a HEPA air purifier, etc. No
                help. He wanted to put her on prednisone. I'm sorry, but I won't take
                steroids and I will not put my cats on them. He understood 150% and said,
                let's take this to the holistic vet (who is my current vet). We did;
                using
                herbs and a Standard Process supplement, my cat quit coughing--has not had
                an asthma attack in 5 years--and the first vet cannot believe how her
                lungs
                sound (quiet as can be) compared to how they started out sounding. Dr.
                Mike
                ( a top graduate of CSU by the way--a premier vet school) told me that
                sometimes you don't have a choice as much as you want to address the
                underlying cause. I am not saying they don't give it their best shot but
                even in advanced human medicine sometimes there's just no answer. He also
                told me that MOST vets have NO training on nutrition. I understand that
                now
                some veterinary schools are starting some nutrition training but anytime I
                hear a vet recommending Science Diet--forget it--he doesn't know about
                feline nutrition. Sorry....it's the truth. You can compare it to you
                eating good, whole, fresh foods (i.e. preparing meals from scratch with
                good
                ingredients) as opposed to eating Hamburger Helper with all of its
                preservatives.

                If you want some info about HCM cats that have been cured, you might want
                to
                check "The Whole Cat Journal". I don't have the volume here at work but
                can
                provide you with it or fax you the article. It provides names of
                veterinarians who have cured HCM with homeopathic medicine and how they
                did
                it and how, most definitely, it is NOT one size fits all. Bill, a truly
                great vet is open to using whatever modalities to treat their patients.
                Please, please, don't let vet school brainwash you. You can be an awesome
                allopathic vet (like Dr. Mike and my current vet) and still also practice
                holistic medicine. They can work together. I also don't vaccinate my
                cats
                anymore. My holistic vet said (and this was agreed with by Dr. Mike)
                "give
                them their FVRCP when babies--the first dose and the booster" and let
                their
                own immune system kick in after that. Of course we vaccinate children.
                But
                we don't vaccinate them ANNUALLY with the same thing year after year after
                year. And I promise you giving cats FVRCP, feleuk, AND rabies all at one
                time is severely compromising their immune system. I also must agree on
                switching cats from a poor quality, preservative enhanced commercial diet
                to
                a raw diet. The results are amazing. My holistic vet said it's one of
                the
                best treatments for IBD. And guess what? When I first started going to my
                holistic vet, she was not a proponent of raw diets for the same reason
                many
                mentioned in this group (salmonella). I provided her with a lot of
                literature but she was still skeptical. Then she went to a conference,
                joined an egroup on raw diets, began feeding her cats AND dogs raw and now
                she is a top proponent of raw diets. She has a 19 year old cat with
                diabetes at her clinic. Started feeding raw and was able to substantially
                reduce her insulin. However, if you don't want to feed raw (properly
                supplemented, of course), you can either lightly cook the meats OR you can
                feed one of the higher quality canned foods made from USDA approved human
                grade meats (e.g. Wellness or Azmira to name only two). For anyone who is
                interested, there is a great book entitled "The Nature of Animal Healing"
                written by a traditionally trained vet, Dr. Martin Goldstein. It tells of
                his path to natural feeding and treatment. I highly recommend it for
                aspiring vets. AAFCO does not ensure optimum nutrition. Some treats
                state
                they meet AAFCO but I wouldn't feed my cat a diet of them. Many AAFCO
                stamped foods contain SALT. Why? Cats do not need a diet supplemented
                with
                salt. And for our HCM cats, that's the last thing we need. But your
                point
                is well taken that it sets some sort of standard for those who don't
                really
                look at feline nutrition.

                I know how vets are trained. I was accepted into vet school but spent a
                summer working with a vet and I just didn't have the emotional strength at
                21 to deal with the people who abused animals, animals being euthanized,
                cats being declawed, etc. I didn't think I could tolerate alot of what
                vets
                see--maybe I could have. So I will say, I do know the courses you have to
                take and as I've said, I've taught human and animal A&P at the college
                level. Of course vet students study when and why disease starts. But
                sometimes I think there's a broader picture then just focusing on a
                particular organ (for instance) which might be showing symptoms of
                illness.
                For non-genetic diseases, I think the bigger picture goes to the immune
                system--when it is in balance and maximized, the body systems are as well.
                Since I started treating my own body better and more holistically--eating
                whole, natural foods--no colds, no flu, no illnesses; I'm in much better
                physical shape at 48 than probably 90% of 20 year olds and definitely
                better
                than I was when I was younger. My cats are the same--oh the amazing
                improvement in their coats, their teeth, their health--everything since we
                changed to a better diet and started using holistic supplements. We
                rescued
                our oldest cat at 4 weeks and she has travelled the world with us and is
                now
                20; her blood work just done showed everything in normal range and she is
                just steaming along (knock on wood) maintaining her lifelong weight, eats
                right, has the stool of a young cat--she's amazing. Since she has lived
                longer than any other cat I've had and she was switched to a more holistic
                way of life when she was 10, I have to believe we're doing something
                right.

                My main point in all of this is--we each need to do what we feel is best
                for
                our beloved companions. If you only want to treat your cat
                allopathicly--please, do; I respect that 100% and I don't feel you are
                less
                concerned about your cat than I am about mine. But I have felt in reading
                many threads that those of us who use holistic or homeopathic treatments
                are
                thought to be using something akin to voodoo and we must not really care
                about our cats if we are not treating them with the tried and true
                methods.
                Let's just be open-minded to each other. I doubt very seriously that Mr.
                Pepe would have lived as long with as good a quality of life if it weren't
                for his treatment. And my Maxie just had his check up (he was diagnosed
                9/03) and his echo was stable; his bp, heart rate, EKG, blood work, xray
                all
                "beautiful". We are blessed and not only do I thank my wonderful holistic
                vet and cardiologist who work together but I thank God because he gave
                these
                people these talents.

                BTW, Bill, even my cardiologist who does not practice holistic medicine,
                has
                worked fully with my holistic vet and supported all the holistic
                treatments
                we give Max; likewise, my holistic vet was 100% supportive of adding
                atenolol. Great vets--open-minded.

                Best of luck to you as you pursue your career--I know you must be very
                dedicated to helping animals to have chosen this path--it is truly a
                career
                of sacrifice of self on behalf of animal companions. And I pray all of
                you
                with HCM cats will have so many many more joyous moments with them.

                Marjorie
                Sitka, Teddi, Gus, & Max




                Your reply will go to the author of this message. If you feel your reply
                will benefit the entire group, please change the "To:" line to
                feline-heart@yahoogroups.com


                Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                ADVERTISEMENT





                ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
                --
                Yahoo! Groups Links

                a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/feline-heart/

                b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                feline-heart-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

                c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.




                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                Your reply will go to the author of this message. If you feel your reply
                will benefit the entire group, please change the "To:" line to
                feline-heart@yahoogroups.com






                Yahoo! Groups Sponsor



                ADVERTISEMENT

                <http://rd.yahoo.com/SIG=129tes73g/M=295196.4901138.6071305.3001176/D=groups
                /S=1707296857:HM/EXP=1085855402/A=2128215/R=0/SIG=10se96mf6/*http:/companion
                .yahoo.com> click here



                <http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=295196.4901138.6071305.3001176/D=groups/S=
                :HM/A=2128215/rand=841112189>



                _____

                Yahoo! Groups Links

                * To visit your group on the web, go to:
                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/feline-heart/

                * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                feline-heart-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                <mailto:feline-heart-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>

                * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
                <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service.



                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                Your reply will go to the author of this message. If you feel your reply will benefit the entire group, please change the "To:" line to feline-heart@yahoogroups.com


                Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                ADVERTISEMENT





                ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                Yahoo! Groups Links

                a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/feline-heart/

                b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                feline-heart-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

                c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Iben
                Yep, you re right, I am talking about it in it s homeopathic form as I mentioned I give to Nadia. My vet is very well trained in holistic and traditional
                Message 7 of 14 , May 29, 2004
                  Yep, you're right, I am talking about it in it's homeopathic form as I mentioned I give to Nadia. My vet is very well trained in holistic and traditional medicine and I believe highly in her. She is known in all Northern Europe for her skills.

                  Iben & Nadia
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: Deena
                  To: feline-heart@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Saturday, May 29, 2004 1:27 PM
                  Subject: Re: [FH] Hawthorn (was Holistic vs allopathic)


                  --- In feline-heart@yahoogroups.com, "William Draper"
                  <wedraper@e...> wrote: i have know idea what crategus is.
                  >
                  Hey Bill & others,

                  I have my friendly face on...so don't be afraid to keep reading.

                  I think she's talking about the homeopathic version of hawthorn.
                  I understand your concern regarding hawthorn, since logic indicates
                  it should be harmful. Yet, it gets listed in pretty much every
                  holistic books as being beneficial for heart kitties.

                  This is how it was explained to me by Mary Tilford DVM, the wife of
                  Greg Tilford the "Herbs for Pets" guy, when I asked the same
                  question. I'm paraphrasing here, so don't quote me. "When
                  you single out the active ingredient in hawthorn, it may appear
                  harmful for HCM. But when you use it in it's whole form, it seems
                  to act as a very strong heart conditioner and BP regulator. Mother
                  nature builds in these checks & balances that sciences is unable to
                  duplicate in a lab."

                  This is why I always try to use a whole food supplement rather than
                  just the active ingredient, if possible. For example, egg whites
                  are known to deplete biotin. But when you include the yoke & shell,
                  eggs provide the #1 bioavailable food for a cat. So I try to always
                  feed whole foods figuring if Mother Nature didn't want wolves to eat
                  egg whites, she would have taught them how to use an egg separator.
                  Mary Tilford seemed very approachable when I talked to her and may
                  take your call. I'm sure she can explain this better than I.

                  Based on my personal experience with hawthorn, I found it's one of
                  the herbs you should NOT be fooling around with unless instucted by
                  a qualified practitioner. Especially if a cat has severe heart
                  disease. Initially, Mr Pepe tested very negative to hawthorn, but
                  later tested very strong. What caused the change? My guess is that
                  when his CHF was very severe, whatever hawthorne does would have
                  made him worse. When he got the fluid under control and his
                  breathing was stable, his heart was able to reap the benefit of
                  hawthorne, so it tested "strongly beneficial" for him.

                  This is a perfect example of why you do not want to treat heart
                  kitties holistically based on one persons experience or by reading
                  one book. I hear your frustration with this practice. My mother-in-
                  law swears that if it appears in Ladies Home Journal that it HAS to
                  be medical fact. For holistic treatment to be effective (and safe),
                  it MUST be personalized to the individual patient's needs. Because
                  our cells change on a daily basis, theoretically treatments can
                  change too.

                  If you want to use holistic medicine on a heart kitty....please,
                  please, please do so while working with a qualified practitioner.
                  As Shane said, there are many bad holistic vets out there. There
                  are also some very talented ones. The same goes for MD's,
                  DVM's, DDS's, etc. You must have a healthcare professional that you
                  are comfortable with and trust.

                  I'm not trying to push holistic medicine on anyone. I'm
                  just trying to explain some of the theories to those who are
                  interested in learning about it.




                  Your reply will go to the author of this message. If you feel your reply will benefit the entire group, please change the "To:" line to feline-heart@yahoogroups.com


                  Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                  ADVERTISEMENT





                  ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  Yahoo! Groups Links

                  a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
                  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/feline-heart/

                  b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                  feline-heart-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

                  c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Shane Fox Luper
                  I m definitely in agreement with you there. I would like to say that, even though I am not a vet, I do know from several veterinarians now that the only way to
                  Message 8 of 14 , May 29, 2004
                    I'm definitely in agreement with you there.



                    I would like to say that, even though I am not a vet, I do know from several
                    veterinarians now that the only way to appropriately remove teeth is to take
                    x-rays prior to the removal. Honestly, I thought the same thing as you do,
                    but have asked other vets now, and one being a certified boarded vet
                    dentist too and they both said "Only appropriately done with x-rays", so I
                    think they should know.



                    Shane



                    _____

                    From: shelley [mailto:saknibbs@...]
                    Sent: Saturday, May 29, 2004 6:13 AM
                    To: 'William Draper'; feline-heart@yahoogroups.com; Shane Fox Luper
                    Subject: Re: [FH] Holistic vs allopathic



                    I have had many dentals done on my cats over the years and not once have I
                    had a vet do xrays first, in fact I have not heard of it being done.

                    As for your comment about quack holistic vets I think the same can be said
                    for some allopathic vets out there.

                    shelley
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: Shane Fox Luper
                    To: 'William Draper' ; feline-heart@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Friday, May 28, 2004 5:32 PM
                    Subject: RE: [FH] Holistic vs allopathic


                    Hi Bill ( and everyone else who's been contributing to this topic)

                    The last bit of this note that you wrote is interesting. I have been to
                    many
                    vets over the years, holistic and allopathic. More recently, I was
                    referred
                    to a holistic vet for one of our cats with teeth problems. This vet was
                    one
                    of a few holistic vets who does perform surgeries. And I knew our kitty
                    would need teeth pulled. And knowing what I know with anesthesia-free
                    teeth
                    cleaning, I thought I knew a thing or two. Well, I didn't. This vet, a
                    horrible quack, did ridiculous things to our cat. Have you heard of
                    "Bio-kinetics", well he tried using this "gun" type thing that
                    Chiropractors
                    use on their patients on her for a "neck problems" he thought she had,
                    only
                    he touched his hand to the area on her back and held the gun to his own
                    neck! He said it was working "THROUGH" him!!! My husband and I were
                    disgusted really. The guy wound up pulling several teeth in the end and
                    only
                    giving her an anti-biotic shot -nothing orally, nor any pain meds. She was
                    sick for a month with swollen glands that would not go down so we took her
                    to our regular vet. In a nutshell, I learned that for proper tooth removal
                    on a pet, you need to do dental x-rays in order to see everything and
                    also,
                    in order to remove the ROOT of the tooth! I was clueless about this, but I
                    learned quickly. The quack vet never did x-rays and wound up leaving root
                    which caused the swollen glands. So in addition to paying the quacks bill
                    of
                    $1000.00 we had to pay the other vet to correct the quack's mistake. It
                    really chapped my hide, but now, at least I know.



                    What it really boils down to for me is that I believe that with what I
                    have
                    experienced, there are some really good holistic vets and I know a few
                    good
                    ones) out there, and some real quacks that people should just stay away
                    from.



                    I.M.H.O.



                    Shane





                    _____

                    From: William Draper [mailto:wedraper@...]
                    Sent: Friday, May 28, 2004 10:29 AM
                    To: feline-heart@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [FH] Holistic vs allopathic



                    - "And I am sorry, Bill, but I must patently disagree with you and agree
                    with Deena that many vets, GOOD vets, will prescribe for the symptom and
                    not
                    the problem"
                    -- then they are practicing incorrectly. that is NOT the way we are
                    trained
                    to treat disease.

                    - "We tried theophylline and made household changes--got rid of silica
                    based
                    litter, got a HEPA air purifier, etc. No help. He wanted to put her on
                    prednisone. I'm sorry, but I won't take
                    steroids and I will not put my cats on them"
                    -- hmm, it would seem that this statement refutes my previous argument.
                    however, steroids have been the "magic bullet" for many animals with many
                    different diseases. for me it definitely won't be a first-line drug for
                    most things (though it is essential in things like shock therapy and auto
                    immune diseases), but i will probably adhere to the motto "never let an
                    animal die without the benefit of steroids".

                    - it has come to my attention that things i filed in my brain under
                    "adjunct
                    therapy" are actually pseudo-holistic remedies. things like omega fatty
                    acids and taurine as nutritional supplements for certain diseases i agree
                    with. my problem is people using herbal extracts with ingredients that
                    make
                    no sense. giving a cat with HCM a positive inotrope can not be a good
                    idea.
                    that goes against everything we know about the pathogenesis of the
                    disease.
                    however, giving an animal with an inflammatory problem omega fatty acids
                    (as
                    they can be incorporated into the cell membrane and replace the
                    inflammatory
                    precursors), now that makes sense to me. i WILL do some more reading into
                    this, as it intrigues me. i reiterate that i am all for the best
                    treatment
                    options for my future clients. i just can't abide by the "my mom's best
                    friend's hairstylist gave her cat substance A and it got over disease X".
                    this is how holistic medicine seems to be propagate to me. we have had a
                    few holistic vets come to school to give lectures, and they just don't
                    impress me. their knowledge of basic disease processes is lacking, and
                    they
                    seem to have a standard remedy for every disease.

                    bill
                    dvm in 2005
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: Marjorie Blaine
                    To: HCM
                    Sent: Friday, May 28, 2004 3:54 AM
                    Subject: [FH] Holistic vs allopathic


                    Well, I suppose I'd like to throw my two cents into the fray. I've had
                    cats
                    since I was 6 years old--42 years now--and I also have a Master's Degree
                    in
                    Wildlife Biology which is not a veterinary degree but I have studied and
                    taught human and animal anatomy and physiology and was accepted into vet
                    school (more on that later). I've done research, understand about large
                    sample sizes (one of my beefs is human studies which used 300 people but
                    make gross generalizations). I've volunteered at a no-kill cat shelter
                    for
                    the past 7 years and seen all kinds of things. I've studied feline
                    nutrition diligently the past several years. I'm not saying any of this
                    to
                    pat my own back but just so you'll know I'm not a novice cat person who
                    has
                    no idea about scientific research or veterinary science, etc.

                    After feeding my cats Science Diet for years, vaccinating annually
                    w/FVRCP,
                    feleuk, and rabies and having lost a cat to vaccination site sarcoma, I
                    have
                    a little experience with this stuff. The ONLY treatment which seemed to
                    truly help my cat was holistic. It gave us 4 months of good quality
                    life
                    with him that our oncologist and regular vet said we'd never have. I
                    believe firmly in a high-quality diet (not Science Diet, Iams, Nutro,
                    etc)
                    and using holistic medicine knowing there are some cases where
                    allopathic
                    is
                    necessary (eg my Max is on atenolol). I have a fabulous vet who
                    practices
                    both types of medicine altho she firmly believes holistic is the best
                    way
                    of
                    treating an animal and human. Sarah mentions she likes to base
                    treatment
                    of
                    her cat with a critical illness on scientific studies. Please correct
                    me
                    if
                    I'm wrong but there are no definitive studies with large sample sizes
                    that
                    indicate atenolol is effective in cats. However, the majority of us use
                    it
                    to decrease the symptoms of this horrible disease. We know it won't
                    cure
                    them. I do agree there are holistic treatments which may work for
                    humans
                    but not animals--that's why you need a vet who KNOWS what they are doing
                    when you are using holistic or homeopathic treatment. I would never
                    undertake this on my own. I also don't believe there is always an
                    "efficacious" way to deal with a particular illness. Genetically, we
                    are
                    all different and our bodies may react differently to different
                    substances
                    (same reason why I don't believe you can just throw estrogen at a
                    peri-menopausal or menopausal woman--our hormone levels can be quite
                    different and what one needs, another may not). And I am sorry, Bill,
                    but
                    I
                    must patently disagree with you and agree with Deena that many vets,
                    GOOD
                    vets, will prescribe for the symptom and not the problem. Many good
                    human
                    doctors do the same. Example--I was working with a fantastic vet (I
                    interviewed 20 vets before I settled on him--let's call him Dr. Mike).
                    My
                    elderly cat developed asthma. We tried theophylline and made household
                    changes--got rid of silica based litter, got a HEPA air purifier, etc.
                    No
                    help. He wanted to put her on prednisone. I'm sorry, but I won't take
                    steroids and I will not put my cats on them. He understood 150% and
                    said,
                    let's take this to the holistic vet (who is my current vet). We did;
                    using
                    herbs and a Standard Process supplement, my cat quit coughing--has not
                    had
                    an asthma attack in 5 years--and the first vet cannot believe how her
                    lungs
                    sound (quiet as can be) compared to how they started out sounding. Dr.
                    Mike
                    ( a top graduate of CSU by the way--a premier vet school) told me that
                    sometimes you don't have a choice as much as you want to address the
                    underlying cause. I am not saying they don't give it their best shot
                    but
                    even in advanced human medicine sometimes there's just no answer. He
                    also
                    told me that MOST vets have NO training on nutrition. I understand that
                    now
                    some veterinary schools are starting some nutrition training but anytime
                    I
                    hear a vet recommending Science Diet--forget it--he doesn't know about
                    feline nutrition. Sorry....it's the truth. You can compare it to you
                    eating good, whole, fresh foods (i.e. preparing meals from scratch with
                    good
                    ingredients) as opposed to eating Hamburger Helper with all of its
                    preservatives.

                    If you want some info about HCM cats that have been cured, you might
                    want
                    to
                    check "The Whole Cat Journal". I don't have the volume here at work but
                    can
                    provide you with it or fax you the article. It provides names of
                    veterinarians who have cured HCM with homeopathic medicine and how they
                    did
                    it and how, most definitely, it is NOT one size fits all. Bill, a truly
                    great vet is open to using whatever modalities to treat their patients.
                    Please, please, don't let vet school brainwash you. You can be an
                    awesome
                    allopathic vet (like Dr. Mike and my current vet) and still also
                    practice
                    holistic medicine. They can work together. I also don't vaccinate my
                    cats
                    anymore. My holistic vet said (and this was agreed with by Dr. Mike)
                    "give
                    them their FVRCP when babies--the first dose and the booster" and let
                    their
                    own immune system kick in after that. Of course we vaccinate children.
                    But
                    we don't vaccinate them ANNUALLY with the same thing year after year
                    after
                    year. And I promise you giving cats FVRCP, feleuk, AND rabies all at
                    one
                    time is severely compromising their immune system. I also must agree on
                    switching cats from a poor quality, preservative enhanced commercial
                    diet
                    to
                    a raw diet. The results are amazing. My holistic vet said it's one of
                    the
                    best treatments for IBD. And guess what? When I first started going to
                    my
                    holistic vet, she was not a proponent of raw diets for the same reason
                    many
                    mentioned in this group (salmonella). I provided her with a lot of
                    literature but she was still skeptical. Then she went to a conference,
                    joined an egroup on raw diets, began feeding her cats AND dogs raw and
                    now
                    she is a top proponent of raw diets. She has a 19 year old cat with
                    diabetes at her clinic. Started feeding raw and was able to
                    substantially
                    reduce her insulin. However, if you don't want to feed raw (properly
                    supplemented, of course), you can either lightly cook the meats OR you
                    can
                    feed one of the higher quality canned foods made from USDA approved
                    human
                    grade meats (e.g. Wellness or Azmira to name only two). For anyone who
                    is
                    interested, there is a great book entitled "The Nature of Animal
                    Healing"
                    written by a traditionally trained vet, Dr. Martin Goldstein. It tells
                    of
                    his path to natural feeding and treatment. I highly recommend it for
                    aspiring vets. AAFCO does not ensure optimum nutrition. Some treats
                    state
                    they meet AAFCO but I wouldn't feed my cat a diet of them. Many AAFCO
                    stamped foods contain SALT. Why? Cats do not need a diet supplemented
                    with
                    salt. And for our HCM cats, that's the last thing we need. But your
                    point
                    is well taken that it sets some sort of standard for those who don't
                    really
                    look at feline nutrition.

                    I know how vets are trained. I was accepted into vet school but spent a
                    summer working with a vet and I just didn't have the emotional strength
                    at
                    21 to deal with the people who abused animals, animals being euthanized,
                    cats being declawed, etc. I didn't think I could tolerate alot of what
                    vets
                    see--maybe I could have. So I will say, I do know the courses you have
                    to
                    take and as I've said, I've taught human and animal A&P at the college
                    level. Of course vet students study when and why disease starts. But
                    sometimes I think there's a broader picture then just focusing on a
                    particular organ (for instance) which might be showing symptoms of
                    illness.
                    For non-genetic diseases, I think the bigger picture goes to the immune
                    system--when it is in balance and maximized, the body systems are as
                    well.
                    Since I started treating my own body better and more
                    holistically--eating
                    whole, natural foods--no colds, no flu, no illnesses; I'm in much better
                    physical shape at 48 than probably 90% of 20 year olds and definitely
                    better
                    than I was when I was younger. My cats are the same--oh the amazing
                    improvement in their coats, their teeth, their health--everything since
                    we
                    changed to a better diet and started using holistic supplements. We
                    rescued
                    our oldest cat at 4 weeks and she has travelled the world with us and is
                    now
                    20; her blood work just done showed everything in normal range and she
                    is
                    just steaming along (knock on wood) maintaining her lifelong weight,
                    eats
                    right, has the stool of a young cat--she's amazing. Since she has lived
                    longer than any other cat I've had and she was switched to a more
                    holistic
                    way of life when she was 10, I have to believe we're doing something
                    right.

                    My main point in all of this is--we each need to do what we feel is best
                    for
                    our beloved companions. If you only want to treat your cat
                    allopathicly--please, do; I respect that 100% and I don't feel you are
                    less
                    concerned about your cat than I am about mine. But I have felt in
                    reading
                    many threads that those of us who use holistic or homeopathic treatments
                    are
                    thought to be using something akin to voodoo and we must not really care
                    about our cats if we are not treating them with the tried and true
                    methods.
                    Let's just be open-minded to each other. I doubt very seriously that Mr.
                    Pepe would have lived as long with as good a quality of life if it
                    weren't
                    for his treatment. And my Maxie just had his check up (he was diagnosed
                    9/03) and his echo was stable; his bp, heart rate, EKG, blood work, xray
                    all
                    "beautiful". We are blessed and not only do I thank my wonderful
                    holistic
                    vet and cardiologist who work together but I thank God because he gave
                    these
                    people these talents.

                    BTW, Bill, even my cardiologist who does not practice holistic medicine,
                    has
                    worked fully with my holistic vet and supported all the holistic
                    treatments
                    we give Max; likewise, my holistic vet was 100% supportive of adding
                    atenolol. Great vets--open-minded.

                    Best of luck to you as you pursue your career--I know you must be very
                    dedicated to helping animals to have chosen this path--it is truly a
                    career
                    of sacrifice of self on behalf of animal companions. And I pray all of
                    you
                    with HCM cats will have so many many more joyous moments with them.

                    Marjorie
                    Sitka, Teddi, Gus, & Max




                    Your reply will go to the author of this message. If you feel your reply
                    will benefit the entire group, please change the "To:" line to
                    feline-heart@yahoogroups.com


                    Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                    ADVERTISEMENT






                    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
                    --
                    Yahoo! Groups Links

                    a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
                    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/feline-heart/

                    b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                    feline-heart-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

                    c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                    Service.




                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                    Your reply will go to the author of this message. If you feel your reply
                    will benefit the entire group, please change the "To:" line to
                    feline-heart@yahoogroups.com






                    Yahoo! Groups Sponsor



                    ADVERTISEMENT


                    <http://rd.yahoo.com/SIG=129tes73g/M=295196.4901138.6071305.3001176/D=groups

                    /S=1707296857:HM/EXP=1085855402/A=2128215/R=0/SIG=10se96mf6/*http:/companion
                    .yahoo.com> click here




                    <http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=295196.4901138.6071305.3001176/D=groups/S=
                    :HM/A=2128215/rand=841112189>



                    _____

                    Yahoo! Groups Links

                    * To visit your group on the web, go to:
                    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/feline-heart/

                    * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                    feline-heart-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                    <mailto:feline-heart-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>

                    * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
                    <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service.



                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                    Your reply will go to the author of this message. If you feel your reply
                    will benefit the entire group, please change the "To:" line to
                    feline-heart@yahoogroups.com


                    Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                    ADVERTISEMENT





                    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
                    --
                    Yahoo! Groups Links

                    a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
                    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/feline-heart/

                    b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                    feline-heart-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

                    c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.




                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                    Your reply will go to the author of this message. If you feel your reply
                    will benefit the entire group, please change the "To:" line to
                    feline-heart@yahoogroups.com






                    Yahoo! Groups Sponsor



                    ADVERTISEMENT

                    <http://rd.yahoo.com/SIG=1290souk7/M=295196.4901138.6071305.3001176/D=groups
                    /S=1707296857:HM/EXP=1085922882/A=2128215/R=0/SIG=10se96mf6/*http:/companion
                    .yahoo.com> click here



                    <http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=295196.4901138.6071305.3001176/D=groups/S=
                    :HM/A=2128215/rand=728376846>



                    _____

                    Yahoo! Groups Links

                    * To visit your group on the web, go to:
                    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/feline-heart/

                    * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                    feline-heart-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                    <mailto:feline-heart-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>

                    * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
                    <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service.



                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Michelle Waters
                    Hi everyone, I m on digest so someone else may have said this but I think that with either allopathic or holistic medicine it really depends on the
                    Message 9 of 14 , May 29, 2004
                      Hi everyone,

                      I'm on digest so someone else may have said this but I think that with either allopathic or holistic medicine it really depends on the practitioner. I had a horrible experience with a holistic vet many years ago, but I've also been to allopathic vets who were incompetent. Fortunately through trial and error we have great vets now, and I have nothing but the highest respect for every member of our "team": our holistic vet, our internist and our surgeon. With what I've learned over the past year I wouldn't face a serious illness in a cat without having a team approach like this.

                      Michelle



                      >This vet, a
                      >horrible quack, did ridiculous things to our cat. Have you heard of
                      >"Bio-kinetics", well he tried using this "gun" type thing that Chiropractors
                      >use on their patients on her for a "neck problems" he thought she had, only
                      >he touched his hand to the area on her back and held the gun to his own
                      >neck! He said it was working "THROUGH" him!!! My husband and I were
                      >disgusted really. >
                      >What it really boils down to for me is that I believe that with what I have
                      >experienced, there are some really good holistic vets and I know a few good
                      >ones) out there, and some real quacks that people should just stay away
                      >from.



                      ____________________________________________________________
                      Find what you are looking for with the Lycos Yellow Pages
                      http://r.lycos.com/r/yp_emailfooter/http://yellowpages.lycos.com/default.asp?SRC=lycos10
                    • Michelle Waters
                      Hi Deena and all, If you go to www.holisticat.com and go into the archives there is an interesting discussion about Hawthorn, between Mary Tilford the
                      Message 10 of 14 , May 29, 2004
                        Hi Deena and all,

                        If you go to www.holisticat.com and go into the archives there is an interesting discussion about Hawthorn, between Mary Tilford the herbalist and Susan Wynn, DVM, who is a holistic vet. I read it a while ago but the jist was that they were disagreeing whether Hawthorn should be used in HCM cats. Susan Wynn felt that no, it should not be used because it could cause the heart to beat too strongly. At any rate, I agree with you about the need to use herbs under the guidance of an experienced practitioner.

                        Michelle

                        >
                        >I think she's talking about the homeopathic version of hawthorn.
                        >I understand your concern regarding hawthorn, since logic indicates
                        >it should be harmful. Yet, it gets listed in pretty much every
                        >holistic books as being beneficial for heart kitties.
                        >
                        >This is how it was explained to me by Mary Tilford DVM, the wife of
                        >Greg Tilford the "Herbs for Pets" guy, when I asked the same
                        >question. I'm paraphrasing here, so don't quote me. "When
                        >you single out the active ingredient in hawthorn, it may appear
                        >harmful for HCM. But when you use it in it's whole form, it seems
                        >to act as a very strong heart conditioner and BP regulator. Mother
                        >nature builds in these checks & balances that sciences is unable to
                        >duplicate in a lab."
                        >
                        >This is why I always try to use a whole food supplement rather than
                        >just the active ingredient, if possible. For example, egg whites
                        >are known to deplete biotin. But when you include the yoke & shell,
                        >eggs provide the #1 bioavailable food for a cat. So I try to always
                        >feed whole foods figuring if Mother Nature didn't want wolves to eat
                        >egg whites, she would have taught them how to use an egg separator.
                        >Mary Tilford seemed very approachable when I talked to her and may
                        >take your call. I'm sure she can explain this better than I.
                        >
                        >Based on my personal experience with hawthorn, I found it's one of
                        >the herbs you should NOT be fooling around with unless instucted by
                        >a qualified practitioner. Especially if a cat has severe heart
                        >disease. Initially, Mr Pepe tested very negative to hawthorn, but
                        >later tested very strong. What caused the change? My guess is that
                        >when his CHF was very severe, whatever hawthorne does would have
                        >made him worse. When he got the fluid under control and his
                        >breathing was stable, his heart was able to reap the benefit of
                        >hawthorne, so it tested "strongly beneficial" for him.
                        >
                        >This is a perfect example of why you do not want to treat heart
                        >kitties holistically based on one persons experience or by reading
                        >one book. I hear your frustration with this practice. My mother-in-
                        >law swears that if it appears in Ladies Home Journal that it HAS to
                        >be medical fact. For holistic treatment to be effective (and safe),
                        >it MUST be personalized to the individual patient's needs. Because
                        >our cells change on a daily basis, theoretically treatments can
                        >change too.
                        >
                        >If you want to use holistic medicine on a heart kitty....please,
                        >please, please do so while working with a qualified practitioner.
                        >As Shane said, there are many bad holistic vets out there. There
                        >are also some very talented ones. The same goes for MD's,
                        >DVM's, DDS's, etc. You must have a healthcare professional that you
                        >are comfortable with and trust.
                        >
                        >I'm not trying to push holistic medicine on anyone. I'm
                        >just trying to explain some of the theories to those who are
                        >interested in learning about it.
                        >


                        ____________________________________________________________
                        Find what you are looking for with the Lycos Yellow Pages
                        http://r.lycos.com/r/yp_emailfooter/http://yellowpages.lycos.com/default.asp?SRC=lycos10
                      • William Draper
                        - So in addition to paying the quacks bill of $1000.00 we had to pay the other vet to correct the quack s mistake -- you ought to contact your state vet
                        Message 11 of 14 , May 29, 2004
                          - "So in addition to paying the quacks bill of $1000.00 we had to pay the other vet to correct the quack's mistake"
                          -- you ought to contact your state vet board and the better business bureau. this is bordering on malpractice in my opinion

                          bill
                          dvm in 2005
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: Shane Fox Luper
                          To: 'William Draper' ; feline-heart@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Friday, May 28, 2004 8:32 PM
                          Subject: RE: [FH] Holistic vs allopathic


                          Hi Bill ( and everyone else who's been contributing to this topic)

                          The last bit of this note that you wrote is interesting. I have been to many vets over the years, holistic and allopathic. More recently, I was referred to a holistic vet for one of our cats with teeth problems. This vet was one of a few holistic vets who does perform surgeries. And I knew our kitty would need teeth pulled. And knowing what I know with anesthesia-free teeth cleaning, I thought I knew a thing or two. Well, I didn't. This vet, a horrible quack, did ridiculous things to our cat. Have you heard of "Bio-kinetics", well he tried using this "gun" type thing that Chiropractors use on their patients on her for a "neck problems" he thought she had, only he touched his hand to the area on her back and held the gun to his own neck! He said it was working "THROUGH" him!!! My husband and I were disgusted really. The guy wound up pulling several teeth in the end and only giving her an anti-biotic shot -nothing orally, nor any pain meds. She was sick for a month with swollen glands that would not go down so we took her to our regular vet. In a nutshell, I learned that for proper tooth removal on a pet, you need to do dental x-rays in order to see everything and also, in order to remove the ROOT of the tooth! I was clueless about this, but I learned quickly. The quack vet never did x-rays and wound up leaving root which caused the swollen glands. So in addition to paying the quacks bill of $1000.00 we had to pay the other vet to correct the quack's mistake. It really chapped my hide, but now, at least I know.



                          What it really boils down to for me is that I believe that with what I have experienced, there are some really good holistic vets and I know a few good ones) out there, and some real quacks that people should just stay away from.



                          I.M.H.O.



                          Shane






                          ------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                          From: William Draper [mailto:wedraper@...]
                          Sent: Friday, May 28, 2004 10:29 AM
                          To: feline-heart@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: Re: [FH] Holistic vs allopathic



                          - "And I am sorry, Bill, but I must patently disagree with you and agree with Deena that many vets, GOOD vets, will prescribe for the symptom and not the problem"
                          -- then they are practicing incorrectly. that is NOT the way we are trained to treat disease.

                          - "We tried theophylline and made household changes--got rid of silica based litter, got a HEPA air purifier, etc. No help. He wanted to put her on prednisone. I'm sorry, but I won't take
                          steroids and I will not put my cats on them"
                          -- hmm, it would seem that this statement refutes my previous argument. however, steroids have been the "magic bullet" for many animals with many different diseases. for me it definitely won't be a first-line drug for most things (though it is essential in things like shock therapy and auto immune diseases), but i will probably adhere to the motto "never let an animal die without the benefit of steroids".

                          - it has come to my attention that things i filed in my brain under "adjunct therapy" are actually pseudo-holistic remedies. things like omega fatty acids and taurine as nutritional supplements for certain diseases i agree with. my problem is people using herbal extracts with ingredients that make no sense. giving a cat with HCM a positive inotrope can not be a good idea. that goes against everything we know about the pathogenesis of the disease. however, giving an animal with an inflammatory problem omega fatty acids (as they can be incorporated into the cell membrane and replace the inflammatory precursors), now that makes sense to me. i WILL do some more reading into this, as it intrigues me. i reiterate that i am all for the best treatment options for my future clients. i just can't abide by the "my mom's best friend's hairstylist gave her cat substance A and it got over disease X". this is how holistic medicine seems to be propagate to me. we have had a few holistic vets come to school to give lectures, and they just don't impress me. their knowledge of basic disease processes is lacking, and they seem to have a standard remedy for every disease.

                          bill
                          dvm in 2005
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: Marjorie Blaine
                          To: HCM
                          Sent: Friday, May 28, 2004 3:54 AM
                          Subject: [FH] Holistic vs allopathic


                          Well, I suppose I'd like to throw my two cents into the fray. I've had cats
                          since I was 6 years old--42 years now--and I also have a Master's Degree in
                          Wildlife Biology which is not a veterinary degree but I have studied and
                          taught human and animal anatomy and physiology and was accepted into vet
                          school (more on that later). I've done research, understand about large
                          sample sizes (one of my beefs is human studies which used 300 people but
                          make gross generalizations). I've volunteered at a no-kill cat shelter for
                          the past 7 years and seen all kinds of things. I've studied feline
                          nutrition diligently the past several years. I'm not saying any of this to
                          pat my own back but just so you'll know I'm not a novice cat person who has
                          no idea about scientific research or veterinary science, etc.

                          After feeding my cats Science Diet for years, vaccinating annually w/FVRCP,
                          feleuk, and rabies and having lost a cat to vaccination site sarcoma, I have
                          a little experience with this stuff. The ONLY treatment which seemed to
                          truly help my cat was holistic. It gave us 4 months of good quality life
                          with him that our oncologist and regular vet said we'd never have. I
                          believe firmly in a high-quality diet (not Science Diet, Iams, Nutro, etc)
                          and using holistic medicine knowing there are some cases where allopathic is
                          necessary (eg my Max is on atenolol). I have a fabulous vet who practices
                          both types of medicine altho she firmly believes holistic is the best way of
                          treating an animal and human. Sarah mentions she likes to base treatment of
                          her cat with a critical illness on scientific studies. Please correct me if
                          I'm wrong but there are no definitive studies with large sample sizes that
                          indicate atenolol is effective in cats. However, the majority of us use it
                          to decrease the symptoms of this horrible disease. We know it won't cure
                          them. I do agree there are holistic treatments which may work for humans
                          but not animals--that's why you need a vet who KNOWS what they are doing
                          when you are using holistic or homeopathic treatment. I would never
                          undertake this on my own. I also don't believe there is always an
                          "efficacious" way to deal with a particular illness. Genetically, we are
                          all different and our bodies may react differently to different substances
                          (same reason why I don't believe you can just throw estrogen at a
                          peri-menopausal or menopausal woman--our hormone levels can be quite
                          different and what one needs, another may not). And I am sorry, Bill, but I
                          must patently disagree with you and agree with Deena that many vets, GOOD
                          vets, will prescribe for the symptom and not the problem. Many good human
                          doctors do the same. Example--I was working with a fantastic vet (I
                          interviewed 20 vets before I settled on him--let's call him Dr. Mike). My
                          elderly cat developed asthma. We tried theophylline and made household
                          changes--got rid of silica based litter, got a HEPA air purifier, etc. No
                          help. He wanted to put her on prednisone. I'm sorry, but I won't take
                          steroids and I will not put my cats on them. He understood 150% and said,
                          let's take this to the holistic vet (who is my current vet). We did; using
                          herbs and a Standard Process supplement, my cat quit coughing--has not had
                          an asthma attack in 5 years--and the first vet cannot believe how her lungs
                          sound (quiet as can be) compared to how they started out sounding. Dr. Mike
                          ( a top graduate of CSU by the way--a premier vet school) told me that
                          sometimes you don't have a choice as much as you want to address the
                          underlying cause. I am not saying they don't give it their best shot but
                          even in advanced human medicine sometimes there's just no answer. He also
                          told me that MOST vets have NO training on nutrition. I understand that now
                          some veterinary schools are starting some nutrition training but anytime I
                          hear a vet recommending Science Diet--forget it--he doesn't know about
                          feline nutrition. Sorry....it's the truth. You can compare it to you
                          eating good, whole, fresh foods (i.e. preparing meals from scratch with good
                          ingredients) as opposed to eating Hamburger Helper with all of its
                          preservatives.

                          If you want some info about HCM cats that have been cured, you might want to
                          check "The Whole Cat Journal". I don't have the volume here at work but can
                          provide you with it or fax you the article. It provides names of
                          veterinarians who have cured HCM with homeopathic medicine and how they did
                          it and how, most definitely, it is NOT one size fits all. Bill, a truly
                          great vet is open to using whatever modalities to treat their patients.
                          Please, please, don't let vet school brainwash you. You can be an awesome
                          allopathic vet (like Dr. Mike and my current vet) and still also practice
                          holistic medicine. They can work together. I also don't vaccinate my cats
                          anymore. My holistic vet said (and this was agreed with by Dr. Mike) "give
                          them their FVRCP when babies--the first dose and the booster" and let their
                          own immune system kick in after that. Of course we vaccinate children. But
                          we don't vaccinate them ANNUALLY with the same thing year after year after
                          year. And I promise you giving cats FVRCP, feleuk, AND rabies all at one
                          time is severely compromising their immune system. I also must agree on
                          switching cats from a poor quality, preservative enhanced commercial diet to
                          a raw diet. The results are amazing. My holistic vet said it's one of the
                          best treatments for IBD. And guess what? When I first started going to my
                          holistic vet, she was not a proponent of raw diets for the same reason many
                          mentioned in this group (salmonella). I provided her with a lot of
                          literature but she was still skeptical. Then she went to a conference,
                          joined an egroup on raw diets, began feeding her cats AND dogs raw and now
                          she is a top proponent of raw diets. She has a 19 year old cat with
                          diabetes at her clinic. Started feeding raw and was able to substantially
                          reduce her insulin. However, if you don't want to feed raw (properly
                          supplemented, of course), you can either lightly cook the meats OR you can
                          feed one of the higher quality canned foods made from USDA approved human
                          grade meats (e.g. Wellness or Azmira to name only two). For anyone who is
                          interested, there is a great book entitled "The Nature of Animal Healing"
                          written by a traditionally trained vet, Dr. Martin Goldstein. It tells of
                          his path to natural feeding and treatment. I highly recommend it for
                          aspiring vets. AAFCO does not ensure optimum nutrition. Some treats state
                          they meet AAFCO but I wouldn't feed my cat a diet of them. Many AAFCO
                          stamped foods contain SALT. Why? Cats do not need a diet supplemented with
                          salt. And for our HCM cats, that's the last thing we need. But your point
                          is well taken that it sets some sort of standard for those who don't really
                          look at feline nutrition.

                          I know how vets are trained. I was accepted into vet school but spent a
                          summer working with a vet and I just didn't have the emotional strength at
                          21 to deal with the people who abused animals, animals being euthanized,
                          cats being declawed, etc. I didn't think I could tolerate alot of what vets
                          see--maybe I could have. So I will say, I do know the courses you have to
                          take and as I've said, I've taught human and animal A&P at the college
                          level. Of course vet students study when and why disease starts. But
                          sometimes I think there's a broader picture then just focusing on a
                          particular organ (for instance) which might be showing symptoms of illness.
                          For non-genetic diseases, I think the bigger picture goes to the immune
                          system--when it is in balance and maximized, the body systems are as well.
                          Since I started treating my own body better and more holistically--eating
                          whole, natural foods--no colds, no flu, no illnesses; I'm in much better
                          physical shape at 48 than probably 90% of 20 year olds and definitely better
                          than I was when I was younger. My cats are the same--oh the amazing
                          improvement in their coats, their teeth, their health--everything since we
                          changed to a better diet and started using holistic supplements. We rescued
                          our oldest cat at 4 weeks and she has travelled the world with us and is now
                          20; her blood work just done showed everything in normal range and she is
                          just steaming along (knock on wood) maintaining her lifelong weight, eats
                          right, has the stool of a young cat--she's amazing. Since she has lived
                          longer than any other cat I've had and she was switched to a more holistic
                          way of life when she was 10, I have to believe we're doing something right.

                          My main point in all of this is--we each need to do what we feel is best for
                          our beloved companions. If you only want to treat your cat
                          allopathicly--please, do; I respect that 100% and I don't feel you are less
                          concerned about your cat than I am about mine. But I have felt in reading
                          many threads that those of us who use holistic or homeopathic treatments are
                          thought to be using something akin to voodoo and we must not really care
                          about our cats if we are not treating them with the tried and true methods.
                          Let's just be open-minded to each other. I doubt very seriously that Mr.
                          Pepe would have lived as long with as good a quality of life if it weren't
                          for his treatment. And my Maxie just had his check up (he was diagnosed
                          9/03) and his echo was stable; his bp, heart rate, EKG, blood work, xray all
                          "beautiful". We are blessed and not only do I thank my wonderful holistic
                          vet and cardiologist who work together but I thank God because he gave these
                          people these talents.

                          BTW, Bill, even my cardiologist who does not practice holistic medicine, has
                          worked fully with my holistic vet and supported all the holistic treatments
                          we give Max; likewise, my holistic vet was 100% supportive of adding
                          atenolol. Great vets--open-minded.

                          Best of luck to you as you pursue your career--I know you must be very
                          dedicated to helping animals to have chosen this path--it is truly a career
                          of sacrifice of self on behalf of animal companions. And I pray all of you
                          with HCM cats will have so many many more joyous moments with them.

                          Marjorie
                          Sitka, Teddi, Gus, & Max




                          Your reply will go to the author of this message. If you feel your reply will benefit the entire group, please change the "To:" line to feline-heart@yahoogroups.com


                          Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                          ADVERTISEMENT





                          ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                          Yahoo! Groups Links

                          a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
                          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/feline-heart/

                          b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                          feline-heart-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

                          c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                          Your reply will go to the author of this message. If you feel your reply will benefit the entire group, please change the "To:" line to feline-heart@yahoogroups.com





                          Yahoo! Groups Sponsor

                          ADVERTISEMENT










                          ------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                          Yahoo! Groups Links

                          a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
                          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/feline-heart/

                          b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                          feline-heart-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

                          c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • William Draper
                          - they were disagreeing whether Hawthorn should be used in HCM cats. Susan Wynn felt that no, it should not be used because it could cause the heart to beat
                          Message 12 of 14 , May 29, 2004
                            - "they were disagreeing whether Hawthorn should be used in HCM cats. Susan Wynn felt that no, it should not be used because it could cause the heart to beat too strongly"
                            -- this is also the crux of my argument. if a holistic DVM has hesitations about using a particular treatment, then that tells me something.

                            bill
                            dvm in 2005
                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: Michelle Waters
                            To: feline-heart@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Saturday, May 29, 2004 7:19 PM
                            Subject: Re: [FH] Hawthorn (was Holistic vs allopathic)


                            Hi Deena and all,

                            If you go to www.holisticat.com and go into the archives there is an interesting discussion about Hawthorn, between Mary Tilford the herbalist and Susan Wynn, DVM, who is a holistic vet. I read it a while ago but the jist was that they were disagreeing whether Hawthorn should be used in HCM cats. Susan Wynn felt that no, it should not be used because it could cause the heart to beat too strongly. At any rate, I agree with you about the need to use herbs under the guidance of an experienced practitioner.

                            Michelle

                            >
                            >I think she's talking about the homeopathic version of hawthorn.
                            >I understand your concern regarding hawthorn, since logic indicates
                            >it should be harmful. Yet, it gets listed in pretty much every
                            >holistic books as being beneficial for heart kitties.
                            >
                            >This is how it was explained to me by Mary Tilford DVM, the wife of
                            >Greg Tilford the "Herbs for Pets" guy, when I asked the same
                            >question. I'm paraphrasing here, so don't quote me. "When
                            >you single out the active ingredient in hawthorn, it may appear
                            >harmful for HCM. But when you use it in it's whole form, it seems
                            >to act as a very strong heart conditioner and BP regulator. Mother
                            >nature builds in these checks & balances that sciences is unable to
                            >duplicate in a lab."
                            >
                            >This is why I always try to use a whole food supplement rather than
                            >just the active ingredient, if possible. For example, egg whites
                            >are known to deplete biotin. But when you include the yoke & shell,
                            >eggs provide the #1 bioavailable food for a cat. So I try to always
                            >feed whole foods figuring if Mother Nature didn't want wolves to eat
                            >egg whites, she would have taught them how to use an egg separator.
                            >Mary Tilford seemed very approachable when I talked to her and may
                            >take your call. I'm sure she can explain this better than I.
                            >
                            >Based on my personal experience with hawthorn, I found it's one of
                            >the herbs you should NOT be fooling around with unless instucted by
                            >a qualified practitioner. Especially if a cat has severe heart
                            >disease. Initially, Mr Pepe tested very negative to hawthorn, but
                            >later tested very strong. What caused the change? My guess is that
                            >when his CHF was very severe, whatever hawthorne does would have
                            >made him worse. When he got the fluid under control and his
                            >breathing was stable, his heart was able to reap the benefit of
                            >hawthorne, so it tested "strongly beneficial" for him.
                            >
                            >This is a perfect example of why you do not want to treat heart
                            >kitties holistically based on one persons experience or by reading
                            >one book. I hear your frustration with this practice. My mother-in-
                            >law swears that if it appears in Ladies Home Journal that it HAS to
                            >be medical fact. For holistic treatment to be effective (and safe),
                            >it MUST be personalized to the individual patient's needs. Because
                            >our cells change on a daily basis, theoretically treatments can
                            >change too.
                            >
                            >If you want to use holistic medicine on a heart kitty....please,
                            >please, please do so while working with a qualified practitioner.
                            >As Shane said, there are many bad holistic vets out there. There
                            >are also some very talented ones. The same goes for MD's,
                            >DVM's, DDS's, etc. You must have a healthcare professional that you
                            >are comfortable with and trust.
                            >
                            >I'm not trying to push holistic medicine on anyone. I'm
                            >just trying to explain some of the theories to those who are
                            >interested in learning about it.
                            >


                            ____________________________________________________________
                            Find what you are looking for with the Lycos Yellow Pages
                            http://r.lycos.com/r/yp_emailfooter/http://yellowpages.lycos.com/default.asp?SRC=lycos10


                            Your reply will go to the author of this message. If you feel your reply will benefit the entire group, please change the "To:" line to feline-heart@yahoogroups.com


                            Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                            ADVERTISEMENT





                            ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                            Yahoo! Groups Links

                            a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
                            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/feline-heart/

                            b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                            feline-heart-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

                            c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Shane Fox Luper
                            We contemplated this, believe me, but made a conscience decision not to do this. I know all of the stress and destruction that it would cause for me and I
                            Message 13 of 14 , May 30, 2004
                              We contemplated this, believe me, but made a conscience decision not to do
                              this. I know all of the stress and destruction that it would cause for me
                              and I really did not want to go through that right now. What I did though,
                              was sit down and write this veterinarian a letter, telling him my opinion of
                              what he did. I had written what the cost was of our second surgery, but I
                              knew not to expect that he would reimburse us, which naturally, he did not.

                              My vet also stated that this quack was the reason that our Lucy went through
                              what she did, so he confirmed it for us, but again, just way too time
                              consuming and stressful.

                              Thanks for your thoughts though Bill. I appreciate it.



                              Shane



                              _____

                              From: William Draper [mailto:wedraper@...]
                              Sent: Saturday, May 29, 2004 3:37 PM
                              To: FH
                              Subject: Re: [FH] Holistic vs allopathic



                              - "So in addition to paying the quacks bill of $1000.00 we had to pay the
                              other vet to correct the quack's mistake"
                              -- you ought to contact your state vet board and the better business bureau.
                              this is bordering on malpractice in my opinion

                              bill
                              dvm in 2005
                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: Shane Fox Luper
                              To: 'William Draper' ; feline-heart@yahoogroups.com
                              Sent: Friday, May 28, 2004 8:32 PM
                              Subject: RE: [FH] Holistic vs allopathic


                              Hi Bill ( and everyone else who's been contributing to this topic)

                              The last bit of this note that you wrote is interesting. I have been to
                              many vets over the years, holistic and allopathic. More recently, I was
                              referred to a holistic vet for one of our cats with teeth problems. This vet
                              was one of a few holistic vets who does perform surgeries. And I knew our
                              kitty would need teeth pulled. And knowing what I know with anesthesia-free
                              teeth cleaning, I thought I knew a thing or two. Well, I didn't. This vet, a
                              horrible quack, did ridiculous things to our cat. Have you heard of
                              "Bio-kinetics", well he tried using this "gun" type thing that Chiropractors
                              use on their patients on her for a "neck problems" he thought she had, only
                              he touched his hand to the area on her back and held the gun to his own
                              neck! He said it was working "THROUGH" him!!! My husband and I were
                              disgusted really. The guy wound up pulling several teeth in the end and only
                              giving her an anti-biotic shot -nothing orally, nor any pain meds. She was
                              sick for a month with swollen glands that would not go down so we took her
                              to our regular vet. In a nutshell, I learned that for proper tooth removal
                              on a pet, you need to do dental x-rays in order to see everything and also,
                              in order to remove the ROOT of the tooth! I was clueless about this, but I
                              learned quickly. The quack vet never did x-rays and wound up leaving root
                              which caused the swollen glands. So in addition to paying the quacks bill of
                              $1000.00 we had to pay the other vet to correct the quack's mistake. It
                              really chapped my hide, but now, at least I know.



                              What it really boils down to for me is that I believe that with what I
                              have experienced, there are some really good holistic vets and I know a few
                              good ones) out there, and some real quacks that people should just stay away
                              from.



                              I.M.H.O.



                              Shane






                              ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
                              --

                              From: William Draper [mailto:wedraper@...]
                              Sent: Friday, May 28, 2004 10:29 AM
                              To: feline-heart@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: Re: [FH] Holistic vs allopathic



                              - "And I am sorry, Bill, but I must patently disagree with you and agree
                              with Deena that many vets, GOOD vets, will prescribe for the symptom and not
                              the problem"
                              -- then they are practicing incorrectly. that is NOT the way we are
                              trained to treat disease.

                              - "We tried theophylline and made household changes--got rid of silica
                              based litter, got a HEPA air purifier, etc. No help. He wanted to put her
                              on prednisone. I'm sorry, but I won't take
                              steroids and I will not put my cats on them"
                              -- hmm, it would seem that this statement refutes my previous argument.
                              however, steroids have been the "magic bullet" for many animals with many
                              different diseases. for me it definitely won't be a first-line drug for
                              most things (though it is essential in things like shock therapy and auto
                              immune diseases), but i will probably adhere to the motto "never let an
                              animal die without the benefit of steroids".

                              - it has come to my attention that things i filed in my brain under
                              "adjunct therapy" are actually pseudo-holistic remedies. things like omega
                              fatty acids and taurine as nutritional supplements for certain diseases i
                              agree with. my problem is people using herbal extracts with ingredients
                              that make no sense. giving a cat with HCM a positive inotrope can not be a
                              good idea. that goes against everything we know about the pathogenesis of
                              the disease. however, giving an animal with an inflammatory problem omega
                              fatty acids (as they can be incorporated into the cell membrane and replace
                              the inflammatory precursors), now that makes sense to me. i WILL do some
                              more reading into this, as it intrigues me. i reiterate that i am all for
                              the best treatment options for my future clients. i just can't abide by the
                              "my mom's best friend's hairstylist gave her cat substance A and it got over
                              disease X". this is how holistic medicine seems to be propagate to me. we
                              have had a few holistic vets come to school to give lectures, and they just
                              don't impress me. their knowledge of basic disease processes is lacking,
                              and they seem to have a standard remedy for every disease.

                              bill
                              dvm in 2005
                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: Marjorie Blaine
                              To: HCM
                              Sent: Friday, May 28, 2004 3:54 AM
                              Subject: [FH] Holistic vs allopathic


                              Well, I suppose I'd like to throw my two cents into the fray. I've had
                              cats
                              since I was 6 years old--42 years now--and I also have a Master's Degree
                              in
                              Wildlife Biology which is not a veterinary degree but I have studied and
                              taught human and animal anatomy and physiology and was accepted into vet
                              school (more on that later). I've done research, understand about large
                              sample sizes (one of my beefs is human studies which used 300 people but
                              make gross generalizations). I've volunteered at a no-kill cat shelter
                              for
                              the past 7 years and seen all kinds of things. I've studied feline
                              nutrition diligently the past several years. I'm not saying any of this
                              to
                              pat my own back but just so you'll know I'm not a novice cat person who
                              has
                              no idea about scientific research or veterinary science, etc.

                              After feeding my cats Science Diet for years, vaccinating annually
                              w/FVRCP,
                              feleuk, and rabies and having lost a cat to vaccination site sarcoma, I
                              have
                              a little experience with this stuff. The ONLY treatment which seemed to
                              truly help my cat was holistic. It gave us 4 months of good quality
                              life
                              with him that our oncologist and regular vet said we'd never have. I
                              believe firmly in a high-quality diet (not Science Diet, Iams, Nutro,
                              etc)
                              and using holistic medicine knowing there are some cases where
                              allopathic is
                              necessary (eg my Max is on atenolol). I have a fabulous vet who
                              practices
                              both types of medicine altho she firmly believes holistic is the best
                              way of
                              treating an animal and human. Sarah mentions she likes to base
                              treatment of
                              her cat with a critical illness on scientific studies. Please correct
                              me if
                              I'm wrong but there are no definitive studies with large sample sizes
                              that
                              indicate atenolol is effective in cats. However, the majority of us use
                              it
                              to decrease the symptoms of this horrible disease. We know it won't
                              cure
                              them. I do agree there are holistic treatments which may work for
                              humans
                              but not animals--that's why you need a vet who KNOWS what they are doing
                              when you are using holistic or homeopathic treatment. I would never
                              undertake this on my own. I also don't believe there is always an
                              "efficacious" way to deal with a particular illness. Genetically, we
                              are
                              all different and our bodies may react differently to different
                              substances
                              (same reason why I don't believe you can just throw estrogen at a
                              peri-menopausal or menopausal woman--our hormone levels can be quite
                              different and what one needs, another may not). And I am sorry, Bill,
                              but I
                              must patently disagree with you and agree with Deena that many vets,
                              GOOD
                              vets, will prescribe for the symptom and not the problem. Many good
                              human
                              doctors do the same. Example--I was working with a fantastic vet (I
                              interviewed 20 vets before I settled on him--let's call him Dr. Mike).
                              My
                              elderly cat developed asthma. We tried theophylline and made household
                              changes--got rid of silica based litter, got a HEPA air purifier, etc.
                              No
                              help. He wanted to put her on prednisone. I'm sorry, but I won't take
                              steroids and I will not put my cats on them. He understood 150% and
                              said,
                              let's take this to the holistic vet (who is my current vet). We did;
                              using
                              herbs and a Standard Process supplement, my cat quit coughing--has not
                              had
                              an asthma attack in 5 years--and the first vet cannot believe how her
                              lungs
                              sound (quiet as can be) compared to how they started out sounding. Dr.
                              Mike
                              ( a top graduate of CSU by the way--a premier vet school) told me that
                              sometimes you don't have a choice as much as you want to address the
                              underlying cause. I am not saying they don't give it their best shot
                              but
                              even in advanced human medicine sometimes there's just no answer. He
                              also
                              told me that MOST vets have NO training on nutrition. I understand that
                              now
                              some veterinary schools are starting some nutrition training but anytime
                              I
                              hear a vet recommending Science Diet--forget it--he doesn't know about
                              feline nutrition. Sorry....it's the truth. You can compare it to you
                              eating good, whole, fresh foods (i.e. preparing meals from scratch with
                              good
                              ingredients) as opposed to eating Hamburger Helper with all of its
                              preservatives.

                              If you want some info about HCM cats that have been cured, you might
                              want to
                              check "The Whole Cat Journal". I don't have the volume here at work but
                              can
                              provide you with it or fax you the article. It provides names of
                              veterinarians who have cured HCM with homeopathic medicine and how they
                              did
                              it and how, most definitely, it is NOT one size fits all. Bill, a truly
                              great vet is open to using whatever modalities to treat their patients.
                              Please, please, don't let vet school brainwash you. You can be an
                              awesome
                              allopathic vet (like Dr. Mike and my current vet) and still also
                              practice
                              holistic medicine. They can work together. I also don't vaccinate my
                              cats
                              anymore. My holistic vet said (and this was agreed with by Dr. Mike)
                              "give
                              them their FVRCP when babies--the first dose and the booster" and let
                              their
                              own immune system kick in after that. Of course we vaccinate children.
                              But
                              we don't vaccinate them ANNUALLY with the same thing year after year
                              after
                              year. And I promise you giving cats FVRCP, feleuk, AND rabies all at
                              one
                              time is severely compromising their immune system. I also must agree on
                              switching cats from a poor quality, preservative enhanced commercial
                              diet to
                              a raw diet. The results are amazing. My holistic vet said it's one of
                              the
                              best treatments for IBD. And guess what? When I first started going to
                              my
                              holistic vet, she was not a proponent of raw diets for the same reason
                              many
                              mentioned in this group (salmonella). I provided her with a lot of
                              literature but she was still skeptical. Then she went to a conference,
                              joined an egroup on raw diets, began feeding her cats AND dogs raw and
                              now
                              she is a top proponent of raw diets. She has a 19 year old cat with
                              diabetes at her clinic. Started feeding raw and was able to
                              substantially
                              reduce her insulin. However, if you don't want to feed raw (properly
                              supplemented, of course), you can either lightly cook the meats OR you
                              can
                              feed one of the higher quality canned foods made from USDA approved
                              human
                              grade meats (e.g. Wellness or Azmira to name only two). For anyone who
                              is
                              interested, there is a great book entitled "The Nature of Animal
                              Healing"
                              written by a traditionally trained vet, Dr. Martin Goldstein. It tells
                              of
                              his path to natural feeding and treatment. I highly recommend it for
                              aspiring vets. AAFCO does not ensure optimum nutrition. Some treats
                              state
                              they meet AAFCO but I wouldn't feed my cat a diet of them. Many AAFCO
                              stamped foods contain SALT. Why? Cats do not need a diet supplemented
                              with
                              salt. And for our HCM cats, that's the last thing we need. But your
                              point
                              is well taken that it sets some sort of standard for those who don't
                              really
                              look at feline nutrition.

                              I know how vets are trained. I was accepted into vet school but spent a
                              summer working with a vet and I just didn't have the emotional strength
                              at
                              21 to deal with the people who abused animals, animals being euthanized,
                              cats being declawed, etc. I didn't think I could tolerate alot of what
                              vets
                              see--maybe I could have. So I will say, I do know the courses you have
                              to
                              take and as I've said, I've taught human and animal A&P at the college
                              level. Of course vet students study when and why disease starts. But
                              sometimes I think there's a broader picture then just focusing on a
                              particular organ (for instance) which might be showing symptoms of
                              illness.
                              For non-genetic diseases, I think the bigger picture goes to the immune
                              system--when it is in balance and maximized, the body systems are as
                              well.
                              Since I started treating my own body better and more
                              holistically--eating
                              whole, natural foods--no colds, no flu, no illnesses; I'm in much better
                              physical shape at 48 than probably 90% of 20 year olds and definitely
                              better
                              than I was when I was younger. My cats are the same--oh the amazing
                              improvement in their coats, their teeth, their health--everything since
                              we
                              changed to a better diet and started using holistic supplements. We
                              rescued
                              our oldest cat at 4 weeks and she has travelled the world with us and is
                              now
                              20; her blood work just done showed everything in normal range and she
                              is
                              just steaming along (knock on wood) maintaining her lifelong weight,
                              eats
                              right, has the stool of a young cat--she's amazing. Since she has lived
                              longer than any other cat I've had and she was switched to a more
                              holistic
                              way of life when she was 10, I have to believe we're doing something
                              right.

                              My main point in all of this is--we each need to do what we feel is best
                              for
                              our beloved companions. If you only want to treat your cat
                              allopathicly--please, do; I respect that 100% and I don't feel you are
                              less
                              concerned about your cat than I am about mine. But I have felt in
                              reading
                              many threads that those of us who use holistic or homeopathic treatments
                              are
                              thought to be using something akin to voodoo and we must not really care
                              about our cats if we are not treating them with the tried and true
                              methods.
                              Let's just be open-minded to each other. I doubt very seriously that Mr.
                              Pepe would have lived as long with as good a quality of life if it
                              weren't
                              for his treatment. And my Maxie just had his check up (he was diagnosed
                              9/03) and his echo was stable; his bp, heart rate, EKG, blood work, xray
                              all
                              "beautiful". We are blessed and not only do I thank my wonderful
                              holistic
                              vet and cardiologist who work together but I thank God because he gave
                              these
                              people these talents.

                              BTW, Bill, even my cardiologist who does not practice holistic medicine,
                              has
                              worked fully with my holistic vet and supported all the holistic
                              treatments
                              we give Max; likewise, my holistic vet was 100% supportive of adding
                              atenolol. Great vets--open-minded.

                              Best of luck to you as you pursue your career--I know you must be very
                              dedicated to helping animals to have chosen this path--it is truly a
                              career
                              of sacrifice of self on behalf of animal companions. And I pray all of
                              you
                              with HCM cats will have so many many more joyous moments with them.

                              Marjorie
                              Sitka, Teddi, Gus, & Max




                              Your reply will go to the author of this message. If you feel your reply
                              will benefit the entire group, please change the "To:" line to
                              feline-heart@yahoogroups.com


                              Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                              ADVERTISEMENT






                              ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
                              --
                              Yahoo! Groups Links

                              a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
                              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/feline-heart/

                              b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                              feline-heart-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

                              c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                              Service.



                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                              Your reply will go to the author of this message. If you feel your reply
                              will benefit the entire group, please change the "To:" line to
                              feline-heart@yahoogroups.com





                              Yahoo! Groups Sponsor

                              ADVERTISEMENT










                              ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
                              --

                              Yahoo! Groups Links

                              a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
                              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/feline-heart/

                              b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                              feline-heart-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

                              c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.




                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                              Your reply will go to the author of this message. If you feel your reply
                              will benefit the entire group, please change the "To:" line to
                              feline-heart@yahoogroups.com






                              Yahoo! Groups Sponsor



                              ADVERTISEMENT

                              <http://rd.yahoo.com/SIG=129v89nni/M=295196.4901138.6071305.3001176/D=groups
                              /S=1707296857:HM/EXP=1085960525/A=2128215/R=0/SIG=10se96mf6/*http:/companion
                              .yahoo.com> click here



                              <http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=295196.4901138.6071305.3001176/D=groups/S=
                              :HM/A=2128215/rand=767587866>



                              _____

                              Yahoo! Groups Links

                              * To visit your group on the web, go to:
                              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/feline-heart/

                              * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                              feline-heart-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                              <mailto:feline-heart-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>

                              * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
                              <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service.



                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Shane Fox Luper
                              Hi everyone, Our cardiologist just cut down Teddy’s Atenolol to half a ¼ of a pill. That’s hard to do, but he’s been lethargic on the ¼ tablet. I meant
                              Message 14 of 14 , Jun 2, 2004
                                Hi everyone,

                                Our cardiologist just cut down Teddy’s Atenolol to half a ¼ of a pill.
                                That’s hard to do, but he’s been lethargic on the ¼ tablet.

                                I meant to ask him something. Teddy used to snore, but now that he’s on the
                                Atenolol, he’s not snoring. What kind of effect could the drug have on the
                                snoring or nasal passage? Anyone have a thought?



                                Also, for you cat people, I started a yahoo group. It’s called “Cat Addicts
                                Forum”. Like the name? LOL! Anyhow, here is a link to it if you’d like to
                                join. I already have several members signed up and it seems to be pretty
                                active. Here is the link.
                                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CatAdFor/?yguid=179615431

                                No pressure to sign up, but I thought it might be something fun.



                                I’ll look forward to your answers about the Atenolol.

                                Shane



                                _____

                                From: William Draper [mailto:wedraper@...]
                                Sent: Friday, May 28, 2004 10:29 AM
                                To: feline-heart@yahoogroups.com
                                Subject: Re: [FH] Holistic vs allopathic



                                - "And I am sorry, Bill, but I must patently disagree with you and agree
                                with Deena that many vets, GOOD vets, will prescribe for the symptom and not
                                the problem"
                                -- then they are practicing incorrectly. that is NOT the way we are trained
                                to treat disease.

                                - "We tried theophylline and made household changes--got rid of silica based
                                litter, got a HEPA air purifier, etc. No help. He wanted to put her on
                                prednisone. I'm sorry, but I won't take
                                steroids and I will not put my cats on them"
                                -- hmm, it would seem that this statement refutes my previous argument.
                                however, steroids have been the "magic bullet" for many animals with many
                                different diseases. for me it definitely won't be a first-line drug for
                                most things (though it is essential in things like shock therapy and auto
                                immune diseases), but i will probably adhere to the motto "never let an
                                animal die without the benefit of steroids".

                                - it has come to my attention that things i filed in my brain under "adjunct
                                therapy" are actually pseudo-holistic remedies. things like omega fatty
                                acids and taurine as nutritional supplements for certain diseases i agree
                                with. my problem is people using herbal extracts with ingredients that make
                                no sense. giving a cat with HCM a positive inotrope can not be a good idea.
                                that goes against everything we know about the pathogenesis of the disease.
                                however, giving an animal with an inflammatory problem omega fatty acids (as
                                they can be incorporated into the cell membrane and replace the inflammatory
                                precursors), now that makes sense to me. i WILL do some more reading into
                                this, as it intrigues me. i reiterate that i am all for the best treatment
                                options for my future clients. i just can't abide by the "my mom's best
                                friend's hairstylist gave her cat substance A and it got over disease X".
                                this is how holistic medicine seems to be propagate to me. we have had a
                                few holistic vets come to school to give lectures, and they just don't
                                impress me. their knowledge of basic disease processes is lacking, and they
                                seem to have a standard remedy for every disease.

                                bill
                                dvm in 2005
                                ----- Original Message -----
                                From: Marjorie Blaine
                                To: HCM
                                Sent: Friday, May 28, 2004 3:54 AM
                                Subject: [FH] Holistic vs allopathic


                                Well, I suppose I'd like to throw my two cents into the fray. I've had
                                cats
                                since I was 6 years old--42 years now--and I also have a Master's Degree
                                in
                                Wildlife Biology which is not a veterinary degree but I have studied and
                                taught human and animal anatomy and physiology and was accepted into vet
                                school (more on that later). I've done research, understand about large
                                sample sizes (one of my beefs is human studies which used 300 people but
                                make gross generalizations). I've volunteered at a no-kill cat shelter
                                for
                                the past 7 years and seen all kinds of things. I've studied feline
                                nutrition diligently the past several years. I'm not saying any of this
                                to
                                pat my own back but just so you'll know I'm not a novice cat person who
                                has
                                no idea about scientific research or veterinary science, etc.

                                After feeding my cats Science Diet for years, vaccinating annually
                                w/FVRCP,
                                feleuk, and rabies and having lost a cat to vaccination site sarcoma, I
                                have
                                a little experience with this stuff. The ONLY treatment which seemed to
                                truly help my cat was holistic. It gave us 4 months of good quality life
                                with him that our oncologist and regular vet said we'd never have. I
                                believe firmly in a high-quality diet (not Science Diet, Iams, Nutro, etc)
                                and using holistic medicine knowing there are some cases where allopathic
                                is
                                necessary (eg my Max is on atenolol). I have a fabulous vet who practices
                                both types of medicine altho she firmly believes holistic is the best way
                                of
                                treating an animal and human. Sarah mentions she likes to base treatment
                                of
                                her cat with a critical illness on scientific studies. Please correct me
                                if
                                I'm wrong but there are no definitive studies with large sample sizes that
                                indicate atenolol is effective in cats. However, the majority of us use
                                it
                                to decrease the symptoms of this horrible disease. We know it won't cure
                                them. I do agree there are holistic treatments which may work for humans
                                but not animals--that's why you need a vet who KNOWS what they are doing
                                when you are using holistic or homeopathic treatment. I would never
                                undertake this on my own. I also don't believe there is always an
                                "efficacious" way to deal with a particular illness. Genetically, we are
                                all different and our bodies may react differently to different substances
                                (same reason why I don't believe you can just throw estrogen at a
                                peri-menopausal or menopausal woman--our hormone levels can be quite
                                different and what one needs, another may not). And I am sorry, Bill, but
                                I
                                must patently disagree with you and agree with Deena that many vets, GOOD
                                vets, will prescribe for the symptom and not the problem. Many good human
                                doctors do the same. Example--I was working with a fantastic vet (I
                                interviewed 20 vets before I settled on him--let's call him Dr. Mike). My
                                elderly cat developed asthma. We tried theophylline and made household
                                changes--got rid of silica based litter, got a HEPA air purifier, etc. No
                                help. He wanted to put her on prednisone. I'm sorry, but I won't take
                                steroids and I will not put my cats on them. He understood 150% and said,
                                let's take this to the holistic vet (who is my current vet). We did;
                                using
                                herbs and a Standard Process supplement, my cat quit coughing--has not had
                                an asthma attack in 5 years--and the first vet cannot believe how her
                                lungs
                                sound (quiet as can be) compared to how they started out sounding. Dr.
                                Mike
                                ( a top graduate of CSU by the way--a premier vet school) told me that
                                sometimes you don't have a choice as much as you want to address the
                                underlying cause. I am not saying they don't give it their best shot but
                                even in advanced human medicine sometimes there's just no answer. He also
                                told me that MOST vets have NO training on nutrition. I understand that
                                now
                                some veterinary schools are starting some nutrition training but anytime I
                                hear a vet recommending Science Diet--forget it--he doesn't know about
                                feline nutrition. Sorry....it's the truth. You can compare it to you
                                eating good, whole, fresh foods (i.e. preparing meals from scratch with
                                good
                                ingredients) as opposed to eating Hamburger Helper with all of its
                                preservatives.

                                If you want some info about HCM cats that have been cured, you might want
                                to
                                check "The Whole Cat Journal". I don't have the volume here at work but
                                can
                                provide you with it or fax you the article. It provides names of
                                veterinarians who have cured HCM with homeopathic medicine and how they
                                did
                                it and how, most definitely, it is NOT one size fits all. Bill, a truly
                                great vet is open to using whatever modalities to treat their patients.
                                Please, please, don't let vet school brainwash you. You can be an awesome
                                allopathic vet (like Dr. Mike and my current vet) and still also practice
                                holistic medicine. They can work together. I also don't vaccinate my
                                cats
                                anymore. My holistic vet said (and this was agreed with by Dr. Mike)
                                "give
                                them their FVRCP when babies--the first dose and the booster" and let
                                their
                                own immune system kick in after that. Of course we vaccinate children.
                                But
                                we don't vaccinate them ANNUALLY with the same thing year after year after
                                year. And I promise you giving cats FVRCP, feleuk, AND rabies all at one
                                time is severely compromising their immune system. I also must agree on
                                switching cats from a poor quality, preservative enhanced commercial diet
                                to
                                a raw diet. The results are amazing. My holistic vet said it's one of
                                the
                                best treatments for IBD. And guess what? When I first started going to my
                                holistic vet, she was not a proponent of raw diets for the same reason
                                many
                                mentioned in this group (salmonella). I provided her with a lot of
                                literature but she was still skeptical. Then she went to a conference,
                                joined an egroup on raw diets, began feeding her cats AND dogs raw and now
                                she is a top proponent of raw diets. She has a 19 year old cat with
                                diabetes at her clinic. Started feeding raw and was able to substantially
                                reduce her insulin. However, if you don't want to feed raw (properly
                                supplemented, of course), you can either lightly cook the meats OR you can
                                feed one of the higher quality canned foods made from USDA approved human
                                grade meats (e.g. Wellness or Azmira to name only two). For anyone who is
                                interested, there is a great book entitled "The Nature of Animal Healing"
                                written by a traditionally trained vet, Dr. Martin Goldstein. It tells of
                                his path to natural feeding and treatment. I highly recommend it for
                                aspiring vets. AAFCO does not ensure optimum nutrition. Some treats
                                state
                                they meet AAFCO but I wouldn't feed my cat a diet of them. Many AAFCO
                                stamped foods contain SALT. Why? Cats do not need a diet supplemented
                                with
                                salt. And for our HCM cats, that's the last thing we need. But your
                                point
                                is well taken that it sets some sort of standard for those who don't
                                really
                                look at feline nutrition.

                                I know how vets are trained. I was accepted into vet school but spent a
                                summer working with a vet and I just didn't have the emotional strength at
                                21 to deal with the people who abused animals, animals being euthanized,
                                cats being declawed, etc. I didn't think I could tolerate alot of what
                                vets
                                see--maybe I could have. So I will say, I do know the courses you have to
                                take and as I've said, I've taught human and animal A&P at the college
                                level. Of course vet students study when and why disease starts. But
                                sometimes I think there's a broader picture then just focusing on a
                                particular organ (for instance) which might be showing symptoms of
                                illness.
                                For non-genetic diseases, I think the bigger picture goes to the immune
                                system--when it is in balance and maximized, the body systems are as well.
                                Since I started treating my own body better and more holistically--eating
                                whole, natural foods--no colds, no flu, no illnesses; I'm in much better
                                physical shape at 48 than probably 90% of 20 year olds and definitely
                                better
                                than I was when I was younger. My cats are the same--oh the amazing
                                improvement in their coats, their teeth, their health--everything since we
                                changed to a better diet and started using holistic supplements. We
                                rescued
                                our oldest cat at 4 weeks and she has travelled the world with us and is
                                now
                                20; her blood work just done showed everything in normal range and she is
                                just steaming along (knock on wood) maintaining her lifelong weight, eats
                                right, has the stool of a young cat--she's amazing. Since she has lived
                                longer than any other cat I've had and she was switched to a more holistic
                                way of life when she was 10, I have to believe we're doing something
                                right.

                                My main point in all of this is--we each need to do what we feel is best
                                for
                                our beloved companions. If you only want to treat your cat
                                allopathicly--please, do; I respect that 100% and I don't feel you are
                                less
                                concerned about your cat than I am about mine. But I have felt in reading
                                many threads that those of us who use holistic or homeopathic treatments
                                are
                                thought to be using something akin to voodoo and we must not really care
                                about our cats if we are not treating them with the tried and true
                                methods.
                                Let's just be open-minded to each other. I doubt very seriously that Mr.
                                Pepe would have lived as long with as good a quality of life if it weren't
                                for his treatment. And my Maxie just had his check up (he was diagnosed
                                9/03) and his echo was stable; his bp, heart rate, EKG, blood work, xray
                                all
                                "beautiful". We are blessed and not only do I thank my wonderful holistic
                                vet and cardiologist who work together but I thank God because he gave
                                these
                                people these talents.

                                BTW, Bill, even my cardiologist who does not practice holistic medicine,
                                has
                                worked fully with my holistic vet and supported all the holistic
                                treatments
                                we give Max; likewise, my holistic vet was 100% supportive of adding
                                atenolol. Great vets--open-minded.

                                Best of luck to you as you pursue your career--I know you must be very
                                dedicated to helping animals to have chosen this path--it is truly a
                                career
                                of sacrifice of self on behalf of animal companions. And I pray all of
                                you
                                with HCM cats will have so many many more joyous moments with them.

                                Marjorie
                                Sitka, Teddi, Gus, & Max




                                Your reply will go to the author of this message. If you feel your reply
                                will benefit the entire group, please change the "To:" line to
                                feline-heart@yahoogroups.com


                                Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                                ADVERTISEMENT





                                ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                --
                                Yahoo! Groups Links

                                a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/feline-heart/

                                b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                feline-heart-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

                                c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.




                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                                Your reply will go to the author of this message. If you feel your reply
                                will benefit the entire group, please change the "To:" line to
                                feline-heart@yahoogroups.com






                                Yahoo! Groups Sponsor



                                ADVERTISEMENT

                                <http://rd.yahoo.com/SIG=129tes73g/M=295196.4901138.6071305.3001176/D=groups
                                /S=1707296857:HM/EXP=1085855402/A=2128215/R=0/SIG=10se96mf6/*http:/companion
                                .yahoo.com> click here



                                <http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=295196.4901138.6071305.3001176/D=groups/S=
                                :HM/A=2128215/rand=841112189>



                                _____

                                Yahoo! Groups Links

                                * To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/feline-heart/

                                * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                feline-heart-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                <mailto:feline-heart-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>

                                * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
                                <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service.



                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.