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Re: [FH] Re: giving medicine

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  • savionna@aol.com
    Hi Patricia, In a message dated 5/9/04 11:08:35 PM, sydneyluv9@aol.com writes: These are the primary
    Message 1 of 25 , May 10, 2004
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      Hi Patricia,

      In a message dated 5/9/04 11:08:35 PM, sydneyluv9@... writes:

      << At the vet, I got something called Laxatone. >>

      These are the primary ingredients in Laxatone: White Petrolatum USP, Light
      Mineral Oil NF, Corn Syrup, Malt Syrup, Soybean Oil, Cane Molasses, Water.

      Petrolatum and mineral oil are byproducts of crude oil refining...just a few
      hydrocarbons different from fuel and diesel oil. Neither can be either broken
      down by or completely eliminated from a mammal's digestive system, which has
      potential consequences...incl chronic inflammation of the digestive tract
      potentially resulting in granulomas (which is not desirable in a cat suffering from
      IBD, whose gut is already inflammed), as well as malabsorption of essential
      nutrients and medications.

      An excerpt from
      www.marvistavet.com/html/body_constipation_and_megacolon.html: "Since [mineral oil] is a mineral based compound, it cannot ever be removed
      by the body and the immune system will forever attempt to wall it off with
      inflammatory granulomas.

      From
      http://home.caregroup.org/clinical/altmed/interactions/Drugs/Mineral_Oil.htm (which refers to humans, but is also applicable to cats, whose bodies are
      smaller, more sensitive, and less able to process toxins): "Ingestion of
      mineral oil may chronically irritate the lining of the intestines because they
      often react to it as a foreign substance....Mineral oil is a lipid solvent and
      may absorb drugs as well as nutrients. Chronic use of mineral oil may result in
      increased gut motility with decreased absorption as the foods pass through the
      intestines more rapidly. As a result, foods, supplements and medications have
      reduced opportunity to be absorbed through the intestinal wall....Most
      research has found that mineral oil interferes with the absorption of many
      nutrients, including beta-carotene, calcium, phosphorus, potassium, and vitamins A, D,
      K, and E. Chronic use of mineral oil can cause a deficiency of vitamins A, D,
      E, and K, being fat soluble, as a result of their being not being assimilated
      properly."

      Corn syrup, malt syrup, and cane molasses are all forms of carbohydrate,
      which cats cannot effectively process and which potentially tax the pancreas.


      << Pilling cats is extremely difficult if you keep the pills in their
      original

      form. I've never understood how people were able to accomplish it. >>

      There is a gentle, effective technique outlined (with photos) here:
      www.marvistavet.com/html/pilling_a_cat.html. // Rosemary
    • sydneyluv9@aol.com
      Thanks for the info, Rosemary.....do you have any recommendations for something of a similar nature that isn t toxic that can be used in the way that I
      Message 2 of 25 , May 10, 2004
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        Thanks for the info, Rosemary.....do you have any recommendations for
        something of a similar nature that isn't toxic that can be used in the way that I
        described? I guess butter's out. I have had some limited success with just
        wetting my finger with water, but it's not particularly effective. If you have some
        ideas, I'd love to hear them -

        Patricia


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • G Huxley
        We gave up trying to give Chloe her pill as she struggled and fought despite us using a blanket (on the only the first two times) to keep her still. I felt
        Message 3 of 25 , May 11, 2004
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          We gave up trying to give Chloe her pill as she struggled and fought despite us using a blanket (on the only the first two times) to keep her still.
          I felt that the trauma suffered by Chloe in the direct method would do her heart no good at all.
          We crushed the tablet and mixed it with her food. This has proved 100% successful and we also sprinkle her diuretic onto other feed (Chloe likes to 'graze' )
          I assume that, as she is showing no weaknesses other than her breathing, she feels well and goes about being a healthy cat doing catlike things, including her normal feed patterns, thus making pill taking easy.

          Geb
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: Sande
          To: 'Dana Rulf' ; feline-heart@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Tuesday, May 11, 2004 12:11 AM
          Subject: RE: [FH] Pilling cats (was "giving medicine")


          I use a pill popper. It keeps your hands away from teeth and is very
          easy to use. I rarely miss getting a pill in this way.

          Sande

          -----Original Message-----
          From: Dana Rulf [mailto:drulf@...]
          Sent: Monday, May 10, 2004 4:36 PM
          To: feline-heart@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [FH] Pilling cats (was "giving medicine")

          > > Pilling cats is extremely difficult if you keep the
          > > pills in their original
          > > form. I've never understood how people were able to
          > > accomplish it.

          Merlyn gets his meds in original form after we exhausted every other
          method we could find. I open his mouth (by holding his top "fang
          teeth" as my 4 year old calls them), toss the pill(s) down as far as
          they can go, let him close his mouth waiting a moment, *then open his
          mouth again*: this forces him to swallow (again). Then I follow up
          with a treat, food, or a squirt of water in the side of his mouth to
          help the meds all the way down. He's not always happy with me
          immediately afterwards, but he's getting his meds, and that's what
          counts!
          --Dana
          Merlyn & Tully




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        • Deena
          ... have any recommendations for something of a similar nature that isn t toxic that can be used in the way that I described? I guess butter s out. Patricia
          Message 4 of 25 , May 11, 2004
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            --- In feline-heart@yahoogroups.com, sydneyluv9@a... wrote: do you
            have any recommendations for something of a similar nature that
            isn't toxic that can be used in the way that I described? I guess
            butter's out. Patricia

            Hi Patricia,

            I'm assuming you are looking for something healthy that you can
            crush the pills into.
            Why do you feel butter is out?
            I've always used butter instead of Laxatone for an intestinal
            lubricant for hairballs. For a heart kitty, you may want unsalted,
            if your kitty is sensitive to salt. Depending on availability, my
            first choice would be raw butter, then organic and finally
            commercial brands. If the rest of the diet is low/no salt, you
            might also be able to use something like liverwurst.

            The trick is finding something that your cat loves that you can
            easily hide the meds in. For me, I found Bil-Jac liver treats to be
            the easiest. If you soak them, they are very pliable and can wrap
            around even honker-size pills. The dog & cat version have the same
            ingredients, but the dog ones are larger. Walmart has a private
            label which come in 4 oz milk-containers. The ingredients aren't
            perfect, but at least they are made with real (not rendered) meat.

            Somebody on the list uses a dried fish treat that is also pliable.
            I tried these and they work great...but were very expensive
            considering the amount of pills that Mr Pepe took. I'm pretty picky
            about what goes into my animals, and these had excellent
            ingredients. My sister uses these things called "Pill Pockets" that
            she gets from her vet. Not sure what the ingredients are but she
            finds them very easy to use.

            Cats tastes can be tricky. Mr Pepe loved glycerine liquid which is
            sickly-sweet and not usually a cat-flavor, but I could hide most
            things in. When I needed to get his atenolol compounded into a
            liquid, I brought him to the pharmacy so he could sample the
            flavors. The pharmacist laughed because he hated all the typical
            cat flavors: liver, chicken, fish, etc. When we gave him the
            glycerine, he lapped it up.

            Good Luck,

            Deena in Newburyport, MA
            Mr Pepe Angel 200?-2004
            My Teacher...My Guardian...My Boss...My Friend
            For 5 months, you had an outstanding quality of life by combining
            traditional and holistic medicine, despite advanced CHF, severe HCM,
            severe spontaneous contrast and a heart that was "off the chart".
            You are an inspiration to us all.
          • savionna@aol.com
            Hi Patricia, In a message dated 5/11/04 1:56:40 AM, sydneyluv9@aol.com writes: You re welcome.
            Message 5 of 25 , May 11, 2004
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              Hi Patricia,

              In a message dated 5/11/04 1:56:40 AM, sydneyluv9@... writes:

              << Thanks for the info >>

              You're welcome.

              << do you have any recommendations for
              something of a similar nature that isn't toxic that can be used in the way
              that I
              described? >>

              If you want to stay with a gel-type product, there is a nontoxic,
              petroleum-free hairball remedy that may work (I'm not recommending the use of a hairball
              remedy daily...but this is less noxious alternative to Laxatone). It's called
              VetBasis Hairball Gel; see www.vetbasis.com. The company also makes Healthy
              Breath and Body gel, which is a nontoxic gel that contains probiotics and some
              nutrients...and may be another alternative.

              VetBasis is available from some holistic vets and animal-supply stores, as
              well as various online suppliers. Target used to carry it, but I don't know if
              it still does.

              << I guess butter's out. >>

              Not necessarily. There is nothing inherently toxic in butter, altho some cats
              react to cow dairy products (which would be something to consider with an IBD
              cat).

              Other possibilities would incl pure meat baby food, such as BeechNut chicken
              or turkey and broth (with no additives or other ingredients, such as onion or
              rice); plain, unflavored, unsweetened yoghurt (if the cat reacts to cow dairy,
              there is goat's milk yoghurt...Coach Farms is one common brand); or goat
              cheese. // Rosemary
            • brinkett
              ... unsalted, ... This article about nutrition and heart disease in cats contains an interesting section at the end that lists foods that are safe for heart
              Message 6 of 25 , May 11, 2004
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                > I'm assuming you are looking for something healthy that you can
                > crush the pills into.
                > Why do you feel butter is out?
                > I've always used butter instead of Laxatone for an intestinal
                > lubricant for hairballs. For a heart kitty, you may want
                unsalted,
                > if your kitty is sensitive to salt. Depending on availability, my
                > first choice would be raw butter, then organic and finally
                > commercial brands. If the rest of the diet is low/no salt, you
                > might also be able to use something like liverwurst.
                >
                > The trick is finding something that your cat loves that you can
                > easily hide the meds in.

                This article about nutrition and heart disease in cats contains an
                interesting section at the end that lists foods that are "safe" for
                heart kitties and foods that should be avoided. Just thought I'd
                post it for people who are trying to give pills with food so they
                know what to avoid:

                http://www.vin.com/proceedings/Proceedings.plx?
                CID=WALTHAMOSU2002&PID=2987
              • sydneyluv9@aol.com
                Thanks, Rosemary. I also discovered that using the gravy of the food I m currently feeding them works pretty well, too. I like the baby food idea quite a lot.
                Message 7 of 25 , May 11, 2004
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                  Thanks, Rosemary. I also discovered that using the gravy of the food I'm
                  currently feeding them works pretty well, too. I like the baby food idea quite a
                  lot. I'll buy some of that. The less-toxic hairball gel is good information
                  to have, though I wasn't using the Laxatone for the hairball-relieving
                  properties - just to deliver the meds. Anyway, I hope that the person who asked about
                  medicine delivery has been following this discussion because now there are so
                  many other options.

                  Thanks!

                  Patricia


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • brinkett
                  ... Note that in the article I posted about Nutritional Therapy in Heart Disease, baby food is listed as a food to avoid. Sarah.
                  Message 8 of 25 , May 11, 2004
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                    > I like the baby food idea quite a lot.

                    Note that in the article I posted about Nutritional Therapy in Heart
                    Disease, baby food is listed as a food to avoid.

                    Sarah.
                  • Deena
                    ... wrote: Note that in the article I posted about Nutritional Therapy in Heart Disease, baby food is listed as a food to avoid. Sarah. Sarah - I tried to
                    Message 9 of 25 , May 11, 2004
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                      --- In feline-heart@yahoogroups.com, "brinkett" <scrubbrush@r...>
                      wrote: Note that in the article I posted about Nutritional Therapy
                      in Heart Disease, baby food is listed as a food to avoid. Sarah.

                      Sarah - I tried to access that article and needed a password or
                      something. Is it possible for you to cut & paste the part that
                      lists good & bad foods and send it to me?

                      Without the article in front of me, I will make an assumption here.
                      My guess is that baby food is listed to avoid because it is not a
                      complete diet and shouldn't be fed exclusively. Based on the
                      flavor/brands, it can also have no-no's like onions in it. But, as
                      a supplemental food to get pills into a cat, I don't see a problem.
                      I've heard some vets recommend organic meat baby food mixed with
                      Wysong PDG for anorectic and debilitated cats.
                    • Susan
                      Note: forwarded message attached. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs
                      Message 10 of 25 , May 11, 2004
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                      • Sande
                        Rosemary writes: I bought a yogurt maker for less than 30.00 and can now make my own goats milk yogurt. I know exactly what goes into it (I start with organic
                        Message 11 of 25 , May 11, 2004
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                          Rosemary writes:
                          I bought a yogurt maker for less than 30.00 and can now make my own
                          goats milk yogurt. I know exactly what goes into it (I start with
                          organic yogurt starter) and can make it much cheaper than buying it.
                          Also easier to find the goats milk than the goats milk yogurt. All of
                          the cats love it.

                          Sande

                          Other possibilities would incl pure meat baby food, such as BeechNut
                          chicken
                          or turkey and broth (with no additives or other ingredients, such as
                          onion or
                          rice); plain, unflavored, unsweetened yoghurt (if the cat reacts to cow
                          dairy,
                          there is goat's milk yoghurt...Coach Farms is one common brand); or goat

                          cheese. // Rosemary
                        • Sande
                          Oops - put the Rosemary writes in the wrong place. Rosemary s message is at the bottom. Sorry. Sande ... From: Sande [mailto:sande@comcast.net] Sent:
                          Message 12 of 25 , May 11, 2004
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                            Oops - put the Rosemary writes in the wrong place. Rosemary's message
                            is at the bottom. Sorry.

                            Sande

                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: Sande [mailto:sande@...]
                            Sent: Tuesday, May 11, 2004 6:28 PM
                            To: feline-heart@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: RE: [FH] Re: giving medicine

                            Rosemary writes:
                            I bought a yogurt maker for less than 30.00 and can now make my own
                            goats milk yogurt. I know exactly what goes into it (I start with
                            organic yogurt starter) and can make it much cheaper than buying it.
                            Also easier to find the goats milk than the goats milk yogurt. All of
                            the cats love it.

                            Sande

                            Other possibilities would incl pure meat baby food, such as BeechNut
                            chicken
                            or turkey and broth (with no additives or other ingredients, such as
                            onion or
                            rice); plain, unflavored, unsweetened yoghurt (if the cat reacts to cow
                            dairy,
                            there is goat's milk yoghurt...Coach Farms is one common brand); or goat

                            cheese. // Rosemary





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                          • Chris Martin
                            ... Problem w/Wysong foods is that they contain garlic. A big no-no for cats. Chris Don t worry about the world coming to an end today. It s already
                            Message 13 of 25 , May 11, 2004
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                              On Tuesday, May 11, 2004, at 02:54 PM, Deena wrote:

                              > Based on the
                              > flavor/brands, it can also have no-no's like onions in it. But, as
                              > a supplemental food to get pills into a cat, I don't see a problem.
                              > I've heard some vets recommend organic meat baby food mixed with
                              > Wysong PDG for anorectic and debilitated cats.
                              >
                              Problem w/Wysong foods is that they contain garlic. A big no-no for
                              cats.
                              Chris
                              "Don't worry about the world coming to an end today. It's already
                              tomorrow in Australia."--Charles Schulz
                            • brinkett
                              ... The address was split over two lines which is probably why there was a problem. If you want to see the entire article, which contains more about nutrition
                              Message 14 of 25 , May 12, 2004
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                                > Sarah - I tried to access that article and needed a password or
                                > something. Is it possible for you to cut & paste the part that
                                > lists good & bad foods and send it to me?

                                The address was split over two lines which is probably why there was
                                a problem. If you want to see the entire article, which contains
                                more about nutrition and heart disease, paste the second line right
                                after the first in your browser and it should work.

                                However, here is the section that contains the list of safe foods
                                and foods to avoid (note that this article addresses nutrition in
                                cats and dogs, hence the mention of dog treats):

                                Acceptable treats or foods to increase palatability*:

                                Pasta

                                Rice (plain white or brown rice, not flavored rice)

                                Honey

                                Maple syrup

                                Low-salt cheese

                                Lean meats cooked without any salt (chicken, turkey, beef, or fish)

                                Eggs cooked without salt

                                Homemade soup without salt

                                Low-salt breakfast cereal (the label should read, "this is a low-
                                sodium food")

                                Fresh vegetables/fruit

                                Dog treats specifically labeled as "low sodium"

                                *All foods in this list should be prepared without salt

                                ----------------------------------------------

                                Foods to avoid:

                                Fatty foods (meat trimmings, cream, ice cream)

                                Baby food

                                Pickled foods

                                Bread

                                Pizza

                                Condiments (ketchup, soy sauce, barbeque sauce, etc)

                                Sandwich meats/cold cuts (ham, corned beef, salami, sausages,
                                bacon, hot dogs)

                                Most cheeses (unless specifically labeled as "low sodium")

                                Processed foods (e.g., potato mixes, rice mixes, macaroni and
                                cheese)

                                Canned vegetables (unless "no salt added")

                                Potato chips, packaged popcorn, crackers, and other snack foods

                                Soups (unless homemade without salt)

                                Most dog biscuits and other dog treats
                              • Deena
                                ... wrote: Deena: I ve heard some vets recommend organic meat baby food mixed with Wysong PDG for anorectic and debilitated cats. Chris: Problem w/Wysong
                                Message 15 of 25 , May 12, 2004
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                                  --- In feline-heart@yahoogroups.com, Chris Martin <thecatdiva@m...>
                                  wrote:
                                  Deena: I've heard some vets recommend organic meat baby food mixed
                                  with Wysong PDG for anorectic and debilitated cats.
                                  Chris: Problem w/Wysong foods is that they contain garlic. A big
                                  no-no for cats.

                                  Garlic gets a bad rap because it "can" cause Heinz-body anemia which
                                  is a bear to treat and often fatal. According to Greg Tilford
                                  (Herbs for Pets) and others, you need to give RAW garlic, in good
                                  quantity over an extended period of time for this to happen. But
                                  garlic has many beneficial properties too...especially for heart
                                  kitties. Among other things, garlic is an immune booster,
                                  antioxidant, anticoagulant and blood pressure regulator. Aged
                                  garlic, such as Kyolic, does not have the component that causes
                                  anemia that raw garlic does and can be just as beneficial. The
                                  trick is to give the body a rest once in awhile (ie 3 weeks on, 1
                                  week off).

                                  When I had Mr Pepe tested for the best anticoagulant for him, garlic
                                  was part of the mix. Two different vets, who use different methods
                                  of energy testing (AK & dowsing), got the exact same results. All
                                  cats are individuals and their bodies need different things, but for
                                  Mr Pepe the ideal "clot prevention" seemed to be: nattokinase &
                                  fish body oil daily and aspirin & kyolic (given together) every 3
                                  days. Typically my vets don't recommend garlic and both were
                                  shocked Mr Pepe tested so strong to it. For him, taking 1 kyolic
                                  cap with 1 81mg aspirin seemed to boost the effectiveness of the
                                  aspirin 3 fold.

                                  You need to be cautious with garlic, but I wouldn't be petrofied of
                                  it. Wysong is a quality food, formulated by someone who understands
                                  cat nutrition. The amount of garlic in their foods is too small to
                                  cause a problem, in my opinion. I couldn't use Wysong canned with
                                  Mr Pepe because the stupid soybeans gave him a messy butt. And
                                  since I rotate brands, I wasn't worried about long-term garlic use.

                                  FYI: Wysong PDG is a powdered supplement for debilitated cats which
                                  is added to food - not a food by itself. It does contain garlic,
                                  but not enought to cause problems. It's excellent for cats with
                                  cachexia. When I tried to develop a natural version of Hills A/D, I
                                  determined that a high quality canned food (ie Wellness), Wysong PDG
                                  and pharmaceutical grade fish body oil accomplished the same goal as
                                  A/D with ingredients that were more beneficial to a cat.

                                  Deena
                                • Susan Aufieri
                                  It really does work well. Abby was *awful* to give pills to until I tried this method. At one time, she got pilled a 1/2 hour apart for two different drugs, 3
                                  Message 16 of 25 , May 12, 2004
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                                    It really does work well. Abby was *awful* to give pills to until I
                                    tried this method. At one time, she got pilled a 1/2 hour apart for two
                                    different drugs, 3 times a day. It was an experience and it was getting
                                    to the point where she was starting to distrust me.

                                    These days, it's down the hatch followed up with a bit of water. She
                                    doesn't like getting pilled, but she doesn't think I'm the devil
                                    anymore either.

                                    Susan

                                    On May 11, 2004, at 10:41 AM, feline-heart@yahoogroups.com wrote:

                                    > There is a gentle, effective technique outlined (with photos) here:
                                    > www.marvistavet.com/html/pilling_a_cat.html
                                  • brinkett
                                    ... which ... ... of ... I watched as my 17-1/2 year old cat fought feline hemolytic anemia over 4 days. She died despite the fact that the vets did
                                    Message 17 of 25 , May 12, 2004
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                                      > Garlic gets a bad rap because it "can" cause Heinz-body anemia
                                      which
                                      > is a bear to treat and often fatal. According to Greg Tilford
                                      > (Herbs for Pets) and others, you need to give RAW garlic, in good
                                      > quantity over an extended period of time for this to happen.
                                      <snip>
                                      > You need to be cautious with garlic, but I wouldn't be petrofied
                                      of
                                      > it.

                                      I watched as my 17-1/2 year old cat fought feline hemolytic anemia
                                      over 4 days. She died despite the fact that the vets did everything
                                      possible to try to save her (it was idiopathic in origin - wasn't
                                      caused by anything she ate as far as we know). After having lived
                                      through that and having seen how terrible acute anemia is for the
                                      cat, I wouldn't dream of giving anything to my cats that has *any*
                                      possibility of causing anemia, no matter how remote.

                                      Sarah.
                                    • Sara
                                      This is funny, almost every one of the foods to avoid are my other (healthy) cat Benji s favorite foods! Oops! Toby my HCM cat rarely has an interest in
                                      Message 18 of 25 , May 12, 2004
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                                        This is funny, almost every one of the "foods to avoid" are my other (healthy) cat Benji's favorite foods! Oops! Toby my HCM cat rarely has an interest in any human food but I cannot sit and eat a slice of pizza or make a ham sandwich in peace without Benji reaching for it and begging like a dog. Not that I load him up with pizza all the time, but I just cant help but letting him have the tiniest morsel every now and then, it just makes him so happy.


                                        brinkett <scrubbrush@...> wrote:
                                        > Sarah - I tried to access that article and needed a password or
                                        > something. Is it possible for you to cut & paste the part that
                                        > lists good & bad foods and send it to me?

                                        The address was split over two lines which is probably why there was
                                        a problem. If you want to see the entire article, which contains
                                        more about nutrition and heart disease, paste the second line right
                                        after the first in your browser and it should work.

                                        However, here is the section that contains the list of safe foods
                                        and foods to avoid (note that this article addresses nutrition in
                                        cats and dogs, hence the mention of dog treats):

                                        Acceptable treats or foods to increase palatability*:

                                        Pasta

                                        Rice (plain white or brown rice, not flavored rice)

                                        Honey

                                        Maple syrup

                                        Low-salt cheese

                                        Lean meats cooked without any salt (chicken, turkey, beef, or fish)

                                        Eggs cooked without salt

                                        Homemade soup without salt

                                        Low-salt breakfast cereal (the label should read, "this is a low-
                                        sodium food")

                                        Fresh vegetables/fruit

                                        Dog treats specifically labeled as "low sodium"

                                        *All foods in this list should be prepared without salt

                                        ----------------------------------------------

                                        Foods to avoid:

                                        Fatty foods (meat trimmings, cream, ice cream)

                                        Baby food

                                        Pickled foods

                                        Bread

                                        Pizza

                                        Condiments (ketchup, soy sauce, barbeque sauce, etc)

                                        Sandwich meats/cold cuts (ham, corned beef, salami, sausages,
                                        bacon, hot dogs)

                                        Most cheeses (unless specifically labeled as "low sodium")

                                        Processed foods (e.g., potato mixes, rice mixes, macaroni and
                                        cheese)

                                        Canned vegetables (unless "no salt added")

                                        Potato chips, packaged popcorn, crackers, and other snack foods

                                        Soups (unless homemade without salt)

                                        Most dog biscuits and other dog treats





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                                      • Michelle
                                        Re: Wysong, all our cats were raised on it and now eat either Wysong, raw homecooked diet or Wellness canned. And with the exception of Goldie s HCM all the
                                        Message 19 of 25 , May 12, 2004
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                                          Re: Wysong, all our cats were raised on it and now eat either Wysong, raw
                                          homecooked diet or Wellness canned. And with the exception of Goldie's
                                          HCM all the kitties have been extremely healthy. Wysong was the first animal
                                          food manufacturer to use only human-grade meats and grains, ie nothing that
                                          has been condemned for human consumption, which is what most other pet
                                          food manufacturers use.

                                          By the way, I think Wysong PDG is great stuff, and something that we always
                                          have on hand. I assist-fed it to Goldie when he first came home from the
                                          hospital after he threw his clot and wasn't interested in eating. I did this for
                                          about a week and it helped to keep him going. I also used it for Goldie & his
                                          sister Artemis when they were tiny (they were rescued by me when they were
                                          pre-weaned.)

                                          Michelle


                                          > You need to be cautious with garlic, but I wouldn't be petrofied of
                                          > it. Wysong is a quality food, formulated by someone who understands
                                          > cat nutrition. The amount of garlic in their foods is too small to
                                          > cause a problem, in my opinion. I couldn't use Wysong canned with
                                          > Mr Pepe because the stupid soybeans gave him a messy butt. And
                                          > since I rotate brands, I wasn't worried about long-term garlic use.
                                          >
                                          > FYI: Wysong PDG is a powdered supplement for debilitated cats which
                                          > is added to food - not a food by itself. It does contain garlic,
                                          > but not enought to cause problems. It's excellent for cats with
                                          > cachexia. When I tried to develop a natural version of Hills A/D, I
                                          > determined that a high quality canned food (ie Wellness), Wysong PDG
                                          > and pharmaceutical grade fish body oil accomplished the same goal as
                                          > A/D with ingredients that were more beneficial to a cat.
                                          >
                                          > Deena
                                        • g minnier
                                          Thanks, Deena, for the information. I currently feed dry Wysong (2 varieties) to my 3, based on their needs. I also feed Wellness canned to my HCM boy
                                          Message 20 of 25 , May 18, 2004
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                                            Thanks, Deena, for the information. I currently feed dry Wysong (2
                                            varieties) to my 3, based on their needs. I also feed Wellness canned to my
                                            HCM boy because it's the only food I've found that he'll eat with all the
                                            supplements mixed in. My 2 vets (one traditional and one
                                            traditional-holistic-homeopathic-chiropractic) have both OK'd the foods. My
                                            traditional vet admits to being clueless with regard to most nuitrition
                                            issues but the other is fairly well versed in nutrition. He is in your
                                            camp: don't feed lots of garlic intentionally but for the very small amounts
                                            in most food blends, he believes the good outweighs the bad. I rarely post
                                            to any of my feline lists regarding food because I get flamed for using
                                            garlic-containing foods. But I haven't been able to actually verify the
                                            danger in my research and neither has my vet - there are only comparisons
                                            and warnings but nothing concrete.
                                            I aslo agree that we all must do or own research and feed and provide care
                                            to best of our ability and knowledge. I don't advocate garlic containing
                                            foods unless some other aspect of the food is worth mentioning (like the
                                            Wysong Uretic for my FLUTD boy) so I was glad to hear that a few others feel
                                            that a little garlic won't be the demise of my kitties.
                                            Gwen and the 3 cats in Phoenix
                                            Bud - HCM, asymptomatic, taurine, fish oil, CQ10, Feline Cardiac Support;
                                            glucosamine (for a disk problem)



                                            ___________________
                                            Garlic gets a bad rap because it "can" cause Heinz-body anemia which is a
                                            bear to treat and often fatal. . . . But garlic has many beneficial
                                            properties too...especially for heart kitties. Among other things, garlic
                                            is an immune booster, antioxidant, anticoagulant and blood pressure
                                            regulator. . . .
                                            You need to be cautious with garlic, but I wouldn't be petrofied of it.
                                            Wysong is a quality food, formulated by someone who understands cat
                                            nutrition. The amount of garlic in their foods is too small to cause a
                                            problem, in my opinion.
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