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RE: [feline-heart] Blood clot?

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  • Jonathan Rosenberg
    ... I was searching for the proper term & just got lazy & used the first word that came to mind. Thanks for the correction. ... Yep. I don t recall all of
    Message 1 of 16 , Jan 4, 2001
      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: SHBR (Stephen Brown) [mailto:sbrown@...]
      > Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2001 5:37 PM
      > To: 'feline-heart@egroups.com'
      > Subject: RE: [feline-heart] Blood clot?

      > I can't comment directly on the efficacy of any of the compounds
      > that Bogdan
      > mentions, but to be technically correct I don't think most of them are
      > actually homeopathic, i.e. diluted to the point where no active ingredient
      > remains (except for maybe Rescue Remedy?). Maybe holistic
      > remedies is a more accurate term?

      I was searching for the proper term & just got lazy & used the first word
      that came to mind. Thanks for the correction.

      > Jonathan, you must know whether TPA and/or streptokinase has been
      > tested in cats?

      Yep. I don't recall all of the details, but here's what I found out:

      1) The use of streptokinase showed no improvement in recovery on
      experimental cats.
      2) During the t-PA experiments, 50% of the cats died during therapy. This
      is believed to be worse than the odds for a cat that are not treated with
      t-PA.

      > Steve

      --
      JR
      & Tabby (RB), Lynx (RB), Licorice, Tigger>
    • Bogdan Bilyk
      Jonathan, the ONLY homeopathic remedy that I used was Rescue Remedy. The rest were herbs and vitamins which have been researched and studied. If you would put
      Message 2 of 16 , Jan 4, 2001
        Jonathan, the ONLY homeopathic remedy that I used was Rescue Remedy. The
        rest were herbs and vitamins which have been researched and studied. If you
        would put in some thought and understanding into what you read, like a good
        scientist is supposed to do, you would not have written your erroneous post
        and wasted both of our times. Faith can be blind, science is based on trial
        and error studies that show what works and what doesn't on a repeatable
        basis. Just because you may not have heard of some of those nutrients that I
        used does not make them any less valid. It just demonstrates a paucity of
        knowledge about those substances on your part. Good luck with your 'limited'
        knowledge of 'science'.


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      • Jonathan Rosenberg
        ... Yes, my terminology was sloppy. Someone else already pointed this out. ... I challenge you to point out even one erroneous point in my post (except for my
        Message 3 of 16 , Jan 4, 2001
          > -----Original Message-----
          > From: Bogdan Bilyk [mailto:bb11248@...]
          > Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2001 7:54 PM
          > To: feline-heart@egroups.com
          > Subject: RE: [feline-heart] Blood clot?

          > Jonathan, the ONLY homeopathic remedy that I used was Rescue Remedy.

          Yes, my terminology was sloppy. Someone else already pointed this out.

          > The rest were herbs and vitamins which have been researched and
          > studied. If you would put in some thought and understanding into
          > what you read, like a good scientist is supposed to do, you would
          > not have written your erroneous post and wasted both of our times.

          I challenge you to point out even one erroneous point in my post (except for
          my incorrect use of the term "homeopathic").

          Furthermore, I'm not sure why you're so upset. I never said that the
          remedies you used didn't work. I stated that no study I have seen has shown
          that there is any way to improve on a cat's natural ability to deal with
          blood clots. If you know of a scientific study that shows otherwise, I'm
          sure we would all love to see the reference. This would be a major
          breakthrough in dealing with blood clots in cats.

          > Faith can be blind, science is based on trial and error studies
          > that show what works and what doesn't on a repeatable
          > basis.

          At least we agree on something.

          > Just because you may not have heard of some of those nutrients

          I have heard of all of these nutrients.

          > that I used does not make them any less valid. It just demonstrates
          > a paucity of knowledge about those substances on your part.

          I am more than willing, even anxious, to have my paucity reversed. Please
          point us at any scientific studies that show the efficiacy of the herbs you
          mentioned & their claimed benefits:

          - cayenne stimulates the cardiovascular system and helps break up
          clots
          - bayberry heals paralysis in animals (and humans)
          - carnitine provides energy to the cells that could not get
          nutrients due to the clot
          - Rescue Remedy calms the animal down during stress

          > Good luck with your 'limited' knowledge of 'science'.

          I am hoping that you will do more than wish me luck. I am hoping that you
          can help me learn by responding with appropriate references to studies.

          --
          JR
          & Tabby (RB), Lynx (RB), Licorice, Tigger
        • Voula Augerinos
          Hi Jonathan, ... Dear Jonathan, I write this in a light hearted and non-adversarial way. Your statement reminded me so much of our allopathic vet, who I have
          Message 4 of 16 , Jan 4, 2001
            Hi Jonathan,

            You wrote :

            >it is undeniable that virtually all
            > of the advances in quality of life that our cats enjoy today is due to
            > use
            > of the scientific method (in which hyoptheses are cerafully tested,
            > etc.).

            Dear Jonathan, I write this in a light hearted and non-adversarial
            way. Your statement reminded me so much of our allopathic vet, who I have
            tremendous affection for.
            His favourite saying is "show me the statistics", when I talk about herbal
            medicine to him. LOL! I just keep talking and he just keeps rolling his
            eyes. In the end we are rolling our eyes at each other! LOL!

            Lots of Love.

            Love, Voula and Pebbles and Lucy and my Beautiful Angel Sachie.
          • Jonathan Rosenberg
            ... I appreciate the note. And I m not suggesting that everything in life comes down to science . Certainly the love I feel for my cats (+ the cats at the
            Message 5 of 16 , Jan 4, 2001
              > -----Original Message-----
              > From: Voula Augerinos [mailto:catwoman1@...]
              > Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2001 9:14 PM
              > To: feline-heart@egroups.com
              > Subject: Re: [feline-heart] Blood clot?

              > > it is undeniable that virtually all of the advances in quality
              > > of life that our cats enjoy today is due to use
              > > of the scientific method (in which hyoptheses are cerafully tested,
              > > etc.).

              > Dear Jonathan, I write this in a light hearted and non-adversarial
              > way. Your statement reminded me so much of our allopathic vet, who I have
              > tremendous affection for.
              > His favourite saying is "show me the statistics", when I talk about herbal
              > medicine to him. LOL! I just keep talking and he just keeps rolling his
              > eyes. In the end we are rolling our eyes at each other! LOL!

              I appreciate the note. And I'm not suggesting that everything in life comes
              down to "science". Certainly the love I feel for my cats (+ the cats at the
              shelter where I volunteer + Pebbles + all cats, to be frank) has no
              scientific explanation.

              And I never suggested that people should avoid non-allopathic remedies. I
              was responding to the original post with the viewpoint of modern science.
              That stimulated an attack from the original poster claiming that my post was
              erroneous & a waste of time & that I have a limited knowledge of science.

              I'm quite open minded & I simply asked the originator to back up his/her
              claims. Believe me, I would love to be wrong & find that there is a viable
              way to treat blood clots in cats. It's a devastating disease.

              > Lots of Love.
              > Love, Voula and Pebbles and Lucy and my Beautiful Angel Sachie.

              --
              JR
              & Tabby (RB), Lynx (RB), Licorice, Tigger
            • Bogdan Bilyk
              Jonathan, I apologise. I did not mean to attack you. Sometimes I do come across as a little bit sarcastic. For that, I am sorry. A good starting point for
              Message 6 of 16 , Jan 4, 2001
                Jonathan, I apologise. I did not mean to attack you. Sometimes I do come
                across as a little bit sarcastic. For that, I am sorry. A good starting
                point for treating cat's would be the following url:
                http://www.geocities.com/HotSprings/1158/feline.htm
                As for Cayenne, although I can't list any studies that have been done on
                animals or people, because it would take an inordinate amount of time to
                search for all of the references, there is some good information here:
                http://www.geocities.com/HotSprings/1158/cayenne.htm
                from Dr. Schulze. he has treated many people with cayenne and I have heard
                of no negative references about cayenne when using this herb on animals.
                That is why I used it on my cat. What did I or the cat have to lose? After
                all, the vet just wanted to put the cat away. I have used cayenne on myself
                for several years and I knew what positive benefits it has had on me, so I
                naturally decide to use it on my cat and it worked. My cat is healthy and
                running around driving me nuts. A joyful nuts, because I do love the little
                bum. His name is INKY because he is coal black. And now, he is also healthy
                AND alive because I did NOT listen to the vet and I treated him myself with
                herbs, vitamins and a homeopathic product. There ARE situations that should
                be handled by a vet, but in this case, the vet wanted to put him away so I
                decided to treat him myself and succeeded.


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              • Voula Augerinos
                Dear Jonathan, ... comes ... the ... You are right. Love is beyond everything. Love, Voula and Pebbles (thanks for loving me Jonathan!) and Lucy (he loves me
                Message 7 of 16 , Jan 4, 2001
                  Dear Jonathan,

                  You wrote :
                  > I appreciate the note. And I'm not suggesting that everything in life
                  comes
                  > down to "science". Certainly the love I feel for my cats (+ the cats at
                  the
                  > shelter where I volunteer + Pebbles + all cats, to be frank) has no
                  > scientific explanation.

                  You are right. Love is beyond everything.

                  Love, Voula and Pebbles (thanks for loving me Jonathan!) and Lucy (he loves
                  me too! yay!) and my Beautiful Angel Sachie.
                • Mike & Linda Irrgang (Now in Jamaica!)
                  Personally, I have always found all the info on this site very informative and everyone very open-minded...I think we are all just trying to share what we can
                  Message 8 of 16 , Jan 4, 2001
                    Personally, I have always found all the info on this site very informative
                    and everyone very open-minded...I think we are all just trying to share what
                    we can to help each other work thru what are less than ideal
                    situations....situations which I am sure, most of us, especially our poor
                    pets, would rather have been spared....I for one want to hear about anything
                    and everything that may even remotely have the possibility of helping my
                    kitty.

                    Pls keep all info coming!

                    Linda, Pum and Max



                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: Bogdan Bilyk [mailto:bb11248@...]
                    Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2001 7:54 PM
                    To: feline-heart@egroups.com
                    Subject: RE: [feline-heart] Blood clot?


                    Jonathan, the ONLY homeopathic remedy that I used was Rescue Remedy. The
                    rest were herbs and vitamins which have been researched and studied. If you
                    would put in some thought and understanding into what you read, like a good
                    scientist is supposed to do, you would not have written your erroneous post
                    and wasted both of our times. Faith can be blind, science is based on trial
                    and error studies that show what works and what doesn't on a repeatable
                    basis. Just because you may not have heard of some of those nutrients that I
                    used does not make them any less valid. It just demonstrates a paucity of
                    knowledge about those substances on your part. Good luck with your 'limited'
                    knowledge of 'science'.


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                  • joe.weissmann@uc.edu
                    Bogdan, kindly point us to the scientific studies and research you ve found in regards to dealing with the effects on felines, of the herbs and vitamins you
                    Message 9 of 16 , Jan 5, 2001
                      Bogdan, kindly point us to the scientific studies and research you've
                      found in regards to dealing with the effects on felines, of the herbs
                      and vitamins you used in treating blod clots, specifically Saddle
                      Thrombus.

                      Thanks, Joe Weissmann



                      --- In feline-heart@egroups.com, "Bogdan Bilyk" <bb11248@h...> wrote:
                      > Jonathan, the ONLY homeopathic remedy that I used was Rescue Remedy.
                      The
                      > rest were herbs and vitamins which have been researched and studied.
                      If you
                      > would put in some thought and understanding into what you read, like
                      a good
                      > scientist is supposed to do, you would not have written your
                      erroneous post
                      > and wasted both of our times. Faith can be blind, science is based
                      on trial
                      > and error studies that show what works and what doesn't on a
                      repeatable
                      > basis. Just because you may not have heard of some of those
                      nutrients that I
                      > used does not make them any less valid. It just demonstrates a
                      paucity of
                      > knowledge about those substances on your part. Good luck with your
                      'limited'
                      > knowledge of 'science'.
                      >
                      >
                      > _________________________________________________________________
                      > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
                    • Bogdan Bilyk
                      Joe, see my reply to Jonathan. ... _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at
                      Message 10 of 16 , Jan 5, 2001
                        Joe, see my reply to Jonathan.


                        >From: joe.weissmann@...
                        >Reply-To: feline-heart@egroups.com
                        >To: feline-heart@egroups.com
                        >Subject: [feline-heart] Re: Blood clot?
                        >Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2001 15:25:20 -0000
                        >
                        >Bogdan, kindly point us to the scientific studies and research you've
                        >found in regards to dealing with the effects on felines, of the herbs
                        >and vitamins you used in treating blod clots, specifically Saddle
                        >Thrombus.
                        >
                        >Thanks, Joe Weissmann
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >--- In feline-heart@egroups.com, "Bogdan Bilyk" <bb11248@h...> wrote:
                        > > Jonathan, the ONLY homeopathic remedy that I used was Rescue Remedy.
                        >The
                        > > rest were herbs and vitamins which have been researched and studied.
                        >If you
                        > > would put in some thought and understanding into what you read, like
                        >a good
                        > > scientist is supposed to do, you would not have written your
                        >erroneous post
                        > > and wasted both of our times. Faith can be blind, science is based
                        >on trial
                        > > and error studies that show what works and what doesn't on a
                        >repeatable
                        > > basis. Just because you may not have heard of some of those
                        >nutrients that I
                        > > used does not make them any less valid. It just demonstrates a
                        >paucity of
                        > > knowledge about those substances on your part. Good luck with your
                        >'limited'
                        > > knowledge of 'science'.
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > _________________________________________________________________
                        > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
                        >

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