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RE: [feline-heart] Blood clot?

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  • SHBR (Stephen Brown)
    I can t comment directly on the efficacy of any of the compounds that Bogdan mentions, but to be technically correct I don t think most of them are actually
    Message 1 of 16 , Jan 4, 2001
      I can't comment directly on the efficacy of any of the compounds that Bogdan
      mentions, but to be technically correct I don't think most of them are
      actually homeopathic, i.e. diluted to the point where no active ingredient
      remains (except for maybe Rescue Remedy?). Maybe holistic remedies is a more
      accurate term?

      Jonathan, you must know whether TPA and/or streptokinase has been tested in
      cats?

      Steve

      -----Original Message-----
      From: Jonathan Rosenberg [mailto:jr40@...]
      Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2001 1:58 PM
      To: feline-heart@egroups.com
      Subject: RE: [feline-heart] Blood clot?


      I'm happy that your cat recovered so well from his blood clot. I'm sure
      that you have faith in the homeopathic remedies you tried (especially give
      then successful outcome) & I'm guessing that they couldn't possibly have
      hurt him.

      But I want to put in a word for science here. No matter what your view of
      non-traditional approaches to medicine, it is undeniable that virtually all
      of the advances in quality of life that our cats enjoy today is due to use
      of the scientific method (in which hyoptheses are cerafully tested, etc.).

      I did a lot of research on blood clots in cats when Lynx threw his first
      clot. All studies have shown that some cats (percentage debated) will
      recover very well from even severe blood clots. So far, no one has been
      able to find anything that improves on the cat's natural ability to deal
      with a clot.

      One more item to note is that these clots never actually dissolve. Instead,
      the cat's body is able to 'work around" the clots. The most common method
      is for the body to drill canals through the clot (known as recanalization).

      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: Bogdan Bilyk [mailto:bb11248@...]
      > Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2001 2:21 PM
      > To: feline-heart@egroups.com
      > Subject: Re: [feline-heart] Blood clot?
      >
      >
      > My cat had blood clots also. He was paralysed and the vet said to put him
      > away. I said NO WAY! He's only 11 yrs. old and still has a long
      > way to go. I
      > went to the health food store and bought the following items:
      > Rescue Remedy
      > ( 4 drops on the cat's tongue ), a Carnitine, Co-Q10 and
      > B-5 in each capsule combination, powdered vit. C ascorbate, Bayberry
      > Tincture and cayenne tincture. The cayenne stimulated the cardiovascular
      > system and helps break up clots. Bayberry has been used to heal
      > paralysis in
      > animals (and humans), the Carnitine provided energy to the cells
      > that could
      > not have gotten nutrients due to the clot, Co-Q10 also provides energy to
      > the heart, B-5 is also necessary for the heart and the rescue
      > remedy calms
      > the animal down during stressful events like this. I gave about 5
      > drops of
      > the tinctures to the cat every three hours. I also mixed the vit. C with
      > distilled water and also gave it to him, 1/2 dropperful at a time. He
      > recovered and runs around like a kitten again. Drives me nuts, sometimes
      > with all of the energy he has. Hope this helps.
      >
      >
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    • Jonathan Rosenberg
      ... I was searching for the proper term & just got lazy & used the first word that came to mind. Thanks for the correction. ... Yep. I don t recall all of
      Message 2 of 16 , Jan 4, 2001
        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: SHBR (Stephen Brown) [mailto:sbrown@...]
        > Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2001 5:37 PM
        > To: 'feline-heart@egroups.com'
        > Subject: RE: [feline-heart] Blood clot?

        > I can't comment directly on the efficacy of any of the compounds
        > that Bogdan
        > mentions, but to be technically correct I don't think most of them are
        > actually homeopathic, i.e. diluted to the point where no active ingredient
        > remains (except for maybe Rescue Remedy?). Maybe holistic
        > remedies is a more accurate term?

        I was searching for the proper term & just got lazy & used the first word
        that came to mind. Thanks for the correction.

        > Jonathan, you must know whether TPA and/or streptokinase has been
        > tested in cats?

        Yep. I don't recall all of the details, but here's what I found out:

        1) The use of streptokinase showed no improvement in recovery on
        experimental cats.
        2) During the t-PA experiments, 50% of the cats died during therapy. This
        is believed to be worse than the odds for a cat that are not treated with
        t-PA.

        > Steve

        --
        JR
        & Tabby (RB), Lynx (RB), Licorice, Tigger>
      • Bogdan Bilyk
        Jonathan, the ONLY homeopathic remedy that I used was Rescue Remedy. The rest were herbs and vitamins which have been researched and studied. If you would put
        Message 3 of 16 , Jan 4, 2001
          Jonathan, the ONLY homeopathic remedy that I used was Rescue Remedy. The
          rest were herbs and vitamins which have been researched and studied. If you
          would put in some thought and understanding into what you read, like a good
          scientist is supposed to do, you would not have written your erroneous post
          and wasted both of our times. Faith can be blind, science is based on trial
          and error studies that show what works and what doesn't on a repeatable
          basis. Just because you may not have heard of some of those nutrients that I
          used does not make them any less valid. It just demonstrates a paucity of
          knowledge about those substances on your part. Good luck with your 'limited'
          knowledge of 'science'.


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        • Jonathan Rosenberg
          ... Yes, my terminology was sloppy. Someone else already pointed this out. ... I challenge you to point out even one erroneous point in my post (except for my
          Message 4 of 16 , Jan 4, 2001
            > -----Original Message-----
            > From: Bogdan Bilyk [mailto:bb11248@...]
            > Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2001 7:54 PM
            > To: feline-heart@egroups.com
            > Subject: RE: [feline-heart] Blood clot?

            > Jonathan, the ONLY homeopathic remedy that I used was Rescue Remedy.

            Yes, my terminology was sloppy. Someone else already pointed this out.

            > The rest were herbs and vitamins which have been researched and
            > studied. If you would put in some thought and understanding into
            > what you read, like a good scientist is supposed to do, you would
            > not have written your erroneous post and wasted both of our times.

            I challenge you to point out even one erroneous point in my post (except for
            my incorrect use of the term "homeopathic").

            Furthermore, I'm not sure why you're so upset. I never said that the
            remedies you used didn't work. I stated that no study I have seen has shown
            that there is any way to improve on a cat's natural ability to deal with
            blood clots. If you know of a scientific study that shows otherwise, I'm
            sure we would all love to see the reference. This would be a major
            breakthrough in dealing with blood clots in cats.

            > Faith can be blind, science is based on trial and error studies
            > that show what works and what doesn't on a repeatable
            > basis.

            At least we agree on something.

            > Just because you may not have heard of some of those nutrients

            I have heard of all of these nutrients.

            > that I used does not make them any less valid. It just demonstrates
            > a paucity of knowledge about those substances on your part.

            I am more than willing, even anxious, to have my paucity reversed. Please
            point us at any scientific studies that show the efficiacy of the herbs you
            mentioned & their claimed benefits:

            - cayenne stimulates the cardiovascular system and helps break up
            clots
            - bayberry heals paralysis in animals (and humans)
            - carnitine provides energy to the cells that could not get
            nutrients due to the clot
            - Rescue Remedy calms the animal down during stress

            > Good luck with your 'limited' knowledge of 'science'.

            I am hoping that you will do more than wish me luck. I am hoping that you
            can help me learn by responding with appropriate references to studies.

            --
            JR
            & Tabby (RB), Lynx (RB), Licorice, Tigger
          • Voula Augerinos
            Hi Jonathan, ... Dear Jonathan, I write this in a light hearted and non-adversarial way. Your statement reminded me so much of our allopathic vet, who I have
            Message 5 of 16 , Jan 4, 2001
              Hi Jonathan,

              You wrote :

              >it is undeniable that virtually all
              > of the advances in quality of life that our cats enjoy today is due to
              > use
              > of the scientific method (in which hyoptheses are cerafully tested,
              > etc.).

              Dear Jonathan, I write this in a light hearted and non-adversarial
              way. Your statement reminded me so much of our allopathic vet, who I have
              tremendous affection for.
              His favourite saying is "show me the statistics", when I talk about herbal
              medicine to him. LOL! I just keep talking and he just keeps rolling his
              eyes. In the end we are rolling our eyes at each other! LOL!

              Lots of Love.

              Love, Voula and Pebbles and Lucy and my Beautiful Angel Sachie.
            • Jonathan Rosenberg
              ... I appreciate the note. And I m not suggesting that everything in life comes down to science . Certainly the love I feel for my cats (+ the cats at the
              Message 6 of 16 , Jan 4, 2001
                > -----Original Message-----
                > From: Voula Augerinos [mailto:catwoman1@...]
                > Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2001 9:14 PM
                > To: feline-heart@egroups.com
                > Subject: Re: [feline-heart] Blood clot?

                > > it is undeniable that virtually all of the advances in quality
                > > of life that our cats enjoy today is due to use
                > > of the scientific method (in which hyoptheses are cerafully tested,
                > > etc.).

                > Dear Jonathan, I write this in a light hearted and non-adversarial
                > way. Your statement reminded me so much of our allopathic vet, who I have
                > tremendous affection for.
                > His favourite saying is "show me the statistics", when I talk about herbal
                > medicine to him. LOL! I just keep talking and he just keeps rolling his
                > eyes. In the end we are rolling our eyes at each other! LOL!

                I appreciate the note. And I'm not suggesting that everything in life comes
                down to "science". Certainly the love I feel for my cats (+ the cats at the
                shelter where I volunteer + Pebbles + all cats, to be frank) has no
                scientific explanation.

                And I never suggested that people should avoid non-allopathic remedies. I
                was responding to the original post with the viewpoint of modern science.
                That stimulated an attack from the original poster claiming that my post was
                erroneous & a waste of time & that I have a limited knowledge of science.

                I'm quite open minded & I simply asked the originator to back up his/her
                claims. Believe me, I would love to be wrong & find that there is a viable
                way to treat blood clots in cats. It's a devastating disease.

                > Lots of Love.
                > Love, Voula and Pebbles and Lucy and my Beautiful Angel Sachie.

                --
                JR
                & Tabby (RB), Lynx (RB), Licorice, Tigger
              • Bogdan Bilyk
                Jonathan, I apologise. I did not mean to attack you. Sometimes I do come across as a little bit sarcastic. For that, I am sorry. A good starting point for
                Message 7 of 16 , Jan 4, 2001
                  Jonathan, I apologise. I did not mean to attack you. Sometimes I do come
                  across as a little bit sarcastic. For that, I am sorry. A good starting
                  point for treating cat's would be the following url:
                  http://www.geocities.com/HotSprings/1158/feline.htm
                  As for Cayenne, although I can't list any studies that have been done on
                  animals or people, because it would take an inordinate amount of time to
                  search for all of the references, there is some good information here:
                  http://www.geocities.com/HotSprings/1158/cayenne.htm
                  from Dr. Schulze. he has treated many people with cayenne and I have heard
                  of no negative references about cayenne when using this herb on animals.
                  That is why I used it on my cat. What did I or the cat have to lose? After
                  all, the vet just wanted to put the cat away. I have used cayenne on myself
                  for several years and I knew what positive benefits it has had on me, so I
                  naturally decide to use it on my cat and it worked. My cat is healthy and
                  running around driving me nuts. A joyful nuts, because I do love the little
                  bum. His name is INKY because he is coal black. And now, he is also healthy
                  AND alive because I did NOT listen to the vet and I treated him myself with
                  herbs, vitamins and a homeopathic product. There ARE situations that should
                  be handled by a vet, but in this case, the vet wanted to put him away so I
                  decided to treat him myself and succeeded.


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                • Voula Augerinos
                  Dear Jonathan, ... comes ... the ... You are right. Love is beyond everything. Love, Voula and Pebbles (thanks for loving me Jonathan!) and Lucy (he loves me
                  Message 8 of 16 , Jan 4, 2001
                    Dear Jonathan,

                    You wrote :
                    > I appreciate the note. And I'm not suggesting that everything in life
                    comes
                    > down to "science". Certainly the love I feel for my cats (+ the cats at
                    the
                    > shelter where I volunteer + Pebbles + all cats, to be frank) has no
                    > scientific explanation.

                    You are right. Love is beyond everything.

                    Love, Voula and Pebbles (thanks for loving me Jonathan!) and Lucy (he loves
                    me too! yay!) and my Beautiful Angel Sachie.
                  • Mike & Linda Irrgang (Now in Jamaica!)
                    Personally, I have always found all the info on this site very informative and everyone very open-minded...I think we are all just trying to share what we can
                    Message 9 of 16 , Jan 4, 2001
                      Personally, I have always found all the info on this site very informative
                      and everyone very open-minded...I think we are all just trying to share what
                      we can to help each other work thru what are less than ideal
                      situations....situations which I am sure, most of us, especially our poor
                      pets, would rather have been spared....I for one want to hear about anything
                      and everything that may even remotely have the possibility of helping my
                      kitty.

                      Pls keep all info coming!

                      Linda, Pum and Max



                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: Bogdan Bilyk [mailto:bb11248@...]
                      Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2001 7:54 PM
                      To: feline-heart@egroups.com
                      Subject: RE: [feline-heart] Blood clot?


                      Jonathan, the ONLY homeopathic remedy that I used was Rescue Remedy. The
                      rest were herbs and vitamins which have been researched and studied. If you
                      would put in some thought and understanding into what you read, like a good
                      scientist is supposed to do, you would not have written your erroneous post
                      and wasted both of our times. Faith can be blind, science is based on trial
                      and error studies that show what works and what doesn't on a repeatable
                      basis. Just because you may not have heard of some of those nutrients that I
                      used does not make them any less valid. It just demonstrates a paucity of
                      knowledge about those substances on your part. Good luck with your 'limited'
                      knowledge of 'science'.


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                    • joe.weissmann@uc.edu
                      Bogdan, kindly point us to the scientific studies and research you ve found in regards to dealing with the effects on felines, of the herbs and vitamins you
                      Message 10 of 16 , Jan 5, 2001
                        Bogdan, kindly point us to the scientific studies and research you've
                        found in regards to dealing with the effects on felines, of the herbs
                        and vitamins you used in treating blod clots, specifically Saddle
                        Thrombus.

                        Thanks, Joe Weissmann



                        --- In feline-heart@egroups.com, "Bogdan Bilyk" <bb11248@h...> wrote:
                        > Jonathan, the ONLY homeopathic remedy that I used was Rescue Remedy.
                        The
                        > rest were herbs and vitamins which have been researched and studied.
                        If you
                        > would put in some thought and understanding into what you read, like
                        a good
                        > scientist is supposed to do, you would not have written your
                        erroneous post
                        > and wasted both of our times. Faith can be blind, science is based
                        on trial
                        > and error studies that show what works and what doesn't on a
                        repeatable
                        > basis. Just because you may not have heard of some of those
                        nutrients that I
                        > used does not make them any less valid. It just demonstrates a
                        paucity of
                        > knowledge about those substances on your part. Good luck with your
                        'limited'
                        > knowledge of 'science'.
                        >
                        >
                        > _________________________________________________________________
                        > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
                      • Bogdan Bilyk
                        Joe, see my reply to Jonathan. ... _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at
                        Message 11 of 16 , Jan 5, 2001
                          Joe, see my reply to Jonathan.


                          >From: joe.weissmann@...
                          >Reply-To: feline-heart@egroups.com
                          >To: feline-heart@egroups.com
                          >Subject: [feline-heart] Re: Blood clot?
                          >Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2001 15:25:20 -0000
                          >
                          >Bogdan, kindly point us to the scientific studies and research you've
                          >found in regards to dealing with the effects on felines, of the herbs
                          >and vitamins you used in treating blod clots, specifically Saddle
                          >Thrombus.
                          >
                          >Thanks, Joe Weissmann
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >--- In feline-heart@egroups.com, "Bogdan Bilyk" <bb11248@h...> wrote:
                          > > Jonathan, the ONLY homeopathic remedy that I used was Rescue Remedy.
                          >The
                          > > rest were herbs and vitamins which have been researched and studied.
                          >If you
                          > > would put in some thought and understanding into what you read, like
                          >a good
                          > > scientist is supposed to do, you would not have written your
                          >erroneous post
                          > > and wasted both of our times. Faith can be blind, science is based
                          >on trial
                          > > and error studies that show what works and what doesn't on a
                          >repeatable
                          > > basis. Just because you may not have heard of some of those
                          >nutrients that I
                          > > used does not make them any less valid. It just demonstrates a
                          >paucity of
                          > > knowledge about those substances on your part. Good luck with your
                          >'limited'
                          > > knowledge of 'science'.
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > _________________________________________________________________
                          > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
                          >

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