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Re: [FH] raw organ meats was Vet articles regarding cardiac nutrition and Fox study

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  • bcowell
    Bobo and Karamu both adore raw gizzards and hearts. They re not so keen on raw liver, but then I don t like liver for them anyway. I give them the hearts and
    Message 1 of 14 , Jul 1, 2003
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      Bobo and Karamu both adore raw gizzards and hearts. They're not so
      keen on raw liver, but then I don't like liver for them anyway.
      I give them the hearts and gizzards occasionally instead of their
      chicken legs, which also need to be raw. Bobo won't eat cooked meat.
      Brigitte

      --- In feline-heart@yahoogroups.com, "Debbie Raikes-May"
      <debbie.raikesmay@d...> wrote:
      > btw I think it most unlikely they would eat chicken innards raw,
      too tough and gristly. Braising slow tenderises them and brings out
      the full smell which is what gets my old girlies going.
      > Debbie
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: Susan
      > To: feline-heart@yahoogroups.com
      > Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2003 7:58 PM
      > Subject: [FH] raw organ meats was Vet articles regarding cardiac
      nutrition and Fox study
      >
      >
      >
      > --- Debbie Raikes-May
      > <debbie.raikesmay@d...> wrote:
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > Hi
      > > I have always fed both my cats a little raw, fresh
      > > and finely chopped liver and kidney a week. I use
      > > calves liver in preference to pig or lambs as there
      > > are organically reared cattle here and use lambs
      > > kidney as it is softer in texture for old cat teeth.
      > > Both cats adore it and it is best mixed with a
      > > little COOKED brown rice.
      > > Debbie
      >
      >
      > Thanks Debbie,
      >
      > The reason I wondered is because I have never known a
      > cat to show any interest in chicken innards. Do you
      > freeze the leftover portions of the organ meats?
      >
      > Susan
      >
      > =====
      > Rudy: Male DSH brown tabby, feral mom, diagnosed 09-2002 at 19
      months of age with idiopathic HCM: grade 2 murmur, hyperkinetic
      heart, borderline normal thickening, considered asymptomatic, 12.5 mg
      Atenolol 1x day, 1/2 baby aspirin 2x week administered via pilling
      >
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    • Shirley G.
      - I used to give one cat raw liver all the time but I would freeze it first to kill certain bacteria and then I would chop it up while still cold. I do not
      Message 2 of 14 , Jul 1, 2003
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        -

        I used to give one cat raw liver all the time but I would
        freeze it first to kill certain bacteria and then I would chop it up
        while still cold. I do not like to give raw food to my cats at all.
        Many vets do not like it either.I prefer to micro whatever it is
        until just pink or beyond pink. As to the gizzards being tough, well
        there is always the blender or food
        processor.
        - In feline-
        heart@yahoogroups.com, "bcowell" <bcowell@y...> wrote:
        > Bobo and Karamu both adore raw gizzards and hearts. They're not so
        > keen on raw liver, but then I don't like liver for them anyway.
        > I give them the hearts and gizzards occasionally instead of their
        > chicken legs, which also need to be raw. Bobo won't eat cooked meat.
        > Brigitte
        >
        > --- In feline-heart@yahoogroups.com, "Debbie Raikes-May"
        > <debbie.raikesmay@d...> wrote:
        > > btw I think it most unlikely they would eat chicken innards raw,
        > too tough and gristly. Braising slow tenderises them and brings out
        > the full smell which is what gets my old girlies going.
        > > Debbie
        > > ----- Original Message -----
        > > From: Susan
        > > To: feline-heart@yahoogroups.com
        > > Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2003 7:58 PM
        > > Subject: [FH] raw organ meats was Vet articles regarding
        cardiac
        > nutrition and Fox study
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > --- Debbie Raikes-May
        > > <debbie.raikesmay@d...> wrote:
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > Hi
        > > > I have always fed both my cats a little raw, fresh
        > > > and finely chopped liver and kidney a week. I use
        > > > calves liver in preference to pig or lambs as there
        > > > are organically reared cattle here and use lambs
        > > > kidney as it is softer in texture for old cat teeth.
        > > > Both cats adore it and it is best mixed with a
        > > > little COOKED brown rice.
        > > > Debbie
        > >
        > >
        > > Thanks Debbie,
        > >
        > > The reason I wondered is because I have never known a
        > > cat to show any interest in chicken innards. Do you
        > > freeze the leftover portions of the organ meats?
        > >
        > > Susan
        > >
        > > =====
        > > Rudy: Male DSH brown tabby, feral mom, diagnosed 09-2002 at 19
        > months of age with idiopathic HCM: grade 2 murmur, hyperkinetic
        > heart, borderline normal thickening, considered asymptomatic, 12.5
        mg
        > Atenolol 1x day, 1/2 baby aspirin 2x week administered via pilling
        > >
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        > >
        > >
        > >
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        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • bcowell
        For as many vets that do not like raw food for cats, you could probably find an equal number that do. It is a personal decision, but for us it was not a
        Message 3 of 14 , Jul 1, 2003
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          For as many vets that do not like raw food for cats, you could
          probably find an equal number that do. It is a personal decision, but
          for us it was not a choice... Bobo refuses to eat dry food and cooked
          meat... I'd rather he ate something. Just like our other cat,
          Canaille, likes Fancy Feast. I think that is kitty junk food, but
          again I'd rather she ate.
          I've heard gizzards recommended to clean kitty's teeth when they chew
          them up.
          I'd rather they ate cooked meat, but instead I am just extremely
          careful with the fresh meat. I'm a microbiologist and quite paranoid
          about bacteria!
          Brigitte

          --- In feline-heart@yahoogroups.com, "Shirley G." <cgilpy@j...> wrote:
          > -
          >

          > I used to give one cat raw liver all the time but I would
          > freeze it first to kill certain bacteria and then I would chop it
          up
          > while still cold. I do not like to give raw food to my cats at
          all.
          > Many vets do not like it either.I prefer to micro whatever it is
          > until just pink or beyond pink. As to the gizzards being tough,
          well
          > there is always the blender or food
          >
          processor.
          > - In feline-
          > heart@yahoogroups.com, "bcowell" <bcowell@y...> wrote:
          > > Bobo and Karamu both adore raw gizzards and hearts. They're not
          so
          > > keen on raw liver, but then I don't like liver for them anyway.
          > > I give them the hearts and gizzards occasionally instead of their
          > > chicken legs, which also need to be raw. Bobo won't eat cooked
          meat.
          > > Brigitte
          > >
          > > --- In feline-heart@yahoogroups.com, "Debbie Raikes-May"
          > > <debbie.raikesmay@d...> wrote:
          > > > btw I think it most unlikely they would eat chicken innards
          raw,
          > > too tough and gristly. Braising slow tenderises them and brings
          out
          > > the full smell which is what gets my old girlies going.
          > > > Debbie
          > > > ----- Original Message -----
          > > > From: Susan
          > > > To: feline-heart@yahoogroups.com
          > > > Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2003 7:58 PM
          > > > Subject: [FH] raw organ meats was Vet articles regarding
          > cardiac
          > > nutrition and Fox study
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > --- Debbie Raikes-May
          > > > <debbie.raikesmay@d...> wrote:
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > > Hi
          > > > > I have always fed both my cats a little raw, fresh
          > > > > and finely chopped liver and kidney a week. I use
          > > > > calves liver in preference to pig or lambs as there
          > > > > are organically reared cattle here and use lambs
          > > > > kidney as it is softer in texture for old cat teeth.
          > > > > Both cats adore it and it is best mixed with a
          > > > > little COOKED brown rice.
          > > > > Debbie
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > Thanks Debbie,
          > > >
          > > > The reason I wondered is because I have never known a
          > > > cat to show any interest in chicken innards. Do you
          > > > freeze the leftover portions of the organ meats?
          > > >
          > > > Susan
          > > >
          > > > =====
          > > > Rudy: Male DSH brown tabby, feral mom, diagnosed 09-2002 at
          19
          > > months of age with idiopathic HCM: grade 2 murmur, hyperkinetic
          > > heart, borderline normal thickening, considered asymptomatic,
          12.5
          > mg
          > > Atenolol 1x day, 1/2 baby aspirin 2x week administered via pilling
          > > >
          > > > __________________________________
          > > > Do you Yahoo!?
          > > > SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
          > > > http://sbc.yahoo.com
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          > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
          > > > ADVERTISEMENT
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
          > > > feline-heart-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
          > > Service.
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Susan
          ... Brigitte, I asked the question regarding raw organ meats on the vetlearn.com bulletin board and they brought up both bacterial contamination and parasites.
          Message 4 of 14 , Jul 2, 2003
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            --- bcowell <bcowell@...> wrote:
            >> I'd rather they ate cooked meat, but instead I am
            > just extremely
            > careful with the fresh meat. I'm a microbiologist
            > and quite paranoid
            > about bacteria!
            > Brigitte


            Brigitte,

            I asked the question regarding raw organ meats on the
            vetlearn.com bulletin board and they brought up both
            bacterial contamination and parasites. I mentioned I
            had the OK from IM vet to feed raw baby clams and a
            vet said he was not aware of any parasites in clams
            but wasn't sure. I know I read somewhere once that
            organ meats contain concentrated amounts of anything
            bad the animal may have consumed or been exposed to
            and of course organ meats are sinfully high in
            cholesteral. ALSO it took an anthropologist to
            discover the brain wasting disease Kuru in New
            Guineau was transmitted because elderly females were
            practicing cannibalism of brain tissue. I keep
            thinking that the issue of organ meats is more complex
            than it may seem on the surface.

            Susan

            Susan

            =====
            Rudy: Male DSH brown tabby, feral mom, diagnosed 09-2002 at 19 months of age with idiopathic HCM: grade 2 murmur, hyperkinetic heart, borderline normal thickening, considered asymptomatic, 12.5 mg Atenolol 1x day, 1/2 baby aspirin 2x week administered via pilling

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          • Wathey, Lisa
            Hey Brigitte, what do you think of the books that recommend treating the meat with grapefruit-seed extract to kill the bacteria (or anything else). Is it
            Message 5 of 14 , Jul 2, 2003
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              Hey Brigitte, what do you think of the books that recommend "treating" the meat with grapefruit-seed extract to kill the bacteria (or anything else). Is it the acidic environment that would do it? I have just been buying Barney good quality meat at Whole foods but am concerned about it. Is there anything we can do to make it safer? Lisa W.



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              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Shirley G.
              ... the HCM cat please tell me because my vet is on vacation. I cannot eat organ meat and I love chicken livers and beef liver but it is bad for my cholesterol
              Message 6 of 14 , Jul 2, 2003
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                ---Organ meats is very high in cholesterol if that is dangerous to
                the HCM cat please tell me because my vet is on vacation. I cannot
                eat organ meat and I love chicken livers and beef liver but it is bad
                for my cholesterol and heart so it is not
                permitted.

                In feline-heart@yahoogroups.com, Susan <somnamblst@y...> wrote:
                >
                > --- bcowell <bcowell@y...> wrote:
                > >> I'd rather they ate cooked meat, but instead I am
                > > just extremely
                > > careful with the fresh meat. I'm a microbiologist
                > > and quite paranoid
                > > about bacteria!
                > > Brigitte
                >
                >
                > Brigitte,
                >
                > I asked the question regarding raw organ meats on the
                > vetlearn.com bulletin board and they brought up both
                > bacterial contamination and parasites. I mentioned I
                > had the OK from IM vet to feed raw baby clams and a
                > vet said he was not aware of any parasites in clams
                > but wasn't sure. I know I read somewhere once that
                > organ meats contain concentrated amounts of anything
                > bad the animal may have consumed or been exposed to
                > and of course organ meats are sinfully high in
                > cholesteral. ALSO it took an anthropologist to
                > discover the brain wasting disease Kuru in New
                > Guineau was transmitted because elderly females were
                > practicing cannibalism of brain tissue. I keep
                > thinking that the issue of organ meats is more complex
                > than it may seem on the surface.
                >
                > Susan
                >
                > Susan
                >
                > =====
                > Rudy: Male DSH brown tabby, feral mom, diagnosed 09-2002 at 19
                months of age with idiopathic HCM: grade 2 murmur, hyperkinetic
                heart, borderline normal thickening, considered asymptomatic, 12.5 mg
                Atenolol 1x day, 1/2 baby aspirin 2x week administered via pilling
                >
                > __________________________________
                > Do you Yahoo!?
                > SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
                > http://sbc.yahoo.com
              • bcowell
                Susan, I would never want to feed a lot of liver for the cholesterol issue, this is an organ that concentrates fats and is not necessarily so good. It is also
                Message 7 of 14 , Jul 2, 2003
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                  Susan,
                  I would never want to feed a lot of liver for the cholesterol issue,
                  this is an organ that concentrates fats and is not necessarily so
                  good. It is also the organ that filters, so it is the one that
                  collects stuff like heavy metals and toxins. The heart is not one of
                  those organs. I think it is hard to generalize about organs when they
                  have such different functions. For example, the brain, it is quite a
                  different tissue from the heart. The brain is related to transmission
                  of prions such as Kuru as you say, but there is no data suggesting
                  that eating of hearts would do the same.
                  So I feed hearts and gizzards but not liver. Liver is often fed to
                  fatten animals, and i guess that is because of it's high fat content.
                  I asked both my vet and vet cardiologist about the feeding of hearts
                  and gizzards and they were only positive. I did not want to feed
                  these meats to my cats before I checked, but hearts had been
                  recommended for taurine and gizzards for teeth cleaning.
                  All meat we buy has an issue of bacterial contamination, especially
                  chicken. But it is important to remember that the same bacteria that
                  give us gastrointestinal disease from eating contaminated foods are
                  not the same ones that affect our cats and dogs.
                  Brigitte


                  --- In feline-heart@yahoogroups.com, Susan <somnamblst@y...> wrote:
                  >
                  > --- bcowell <bcowell@y...> wrote:
                  > >> I'd rather they ate cooked meat, but instead I am
                  > > just extremely
                  > > careful with the fresh meat. I'm a microbiologist
                  > > and quite paranoid
                  > > about bacteria!
                  > > Brigitte
                  >
                  >
                  > Brigitte,
                  >
                  > I asked the question regarding raw organ meats on the
                  > vetlearn.com bulletin board and they brought up both
                  > bacterial contamination and parasites. I mentioned I
                  > had the OK from IM vet to feed raw baby clams and a
                  > vet said he was not aware of any parasites in clams
                  > but wasn't sure. I know I read somewhere once that
                  > organ meats contain concentrated amounts of anything
                  > bad the animal may have consumed or been exposed to
                  > and of course organ meats are sinfully high in
                  > cholesteral. ALSO it took an anthropologist to
                  > discover the brain wasting disease Kuru in New
                  > Guineau was transmitted because elderly females were
                  > practicing cannibalism of brain tissue. I keep
                  > thinking that the issue of organ meats is more complex
                  > than it may seem on the surface.
                  >
                  > Susan
                  >
                  > Susan
                  >
                  > =====
                  > Rudy: Male DSH brown tabby, feral mom, diagnosed 09-2002 at 19
                  months of age with idiopathic HCM: grade 2 murmur, hyperkinetic
                  heart, borderline normal thickening, considered asymptomatic, 12.5 mg
                  Atenolol 1x day, 1/2 baby aspirin 2x week administered via pilling
                  >
                  > __________________________________
                  > Do you Yahoo!?
                  > SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
                  > http://sbc.yahoo.com
                • bcowell
                  Lisa, I hadn t heard of using grapefruit-seed extract. There are a number of things that would kill most bacteria (never all, really only autoclaving or
                  Message 8 of 14 , Jul 2, 2003
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                    Lisa,
                    I hadn't heard of using grapefruit-seed extract. There are a number
                    of things that would kill most bacteria (never all, really only
                    autoclaving or pressure cooking would do that). It could be acid in
                    the extract I would think, one of the issues is will your cat still
                    eat it after treatment? Maybe you could try adding the extract and
                    see how much it changes the look and smell of it.
                    I know a lot of cat breeders that feed chicken drop the raw chicken
                    legs in boiling water for 3 minutes... it leaves the inside raw but
                    somewhat sterilizes the outside. One breeder even drops in frozen raw
                    chicken.
                    I buy chicken at Whole Foods also for Bobo, I figure it's the best
                    available for me, so it is good for him too. To be safe, I don't buy
                    budget chicken, and I buy the chicken every other day so it is as
                    fresh as possible. If we had a bigger freezer I would probably
                    stockpile it so I didn't have to go grocery shopping all the time.
                    Brigitte

                    --- In feline-heart@yahoogroups.com, "Wathey, Lisa" <ljw@r...> wrote:
                    > Hey Brigitte, what do you think of the books that
                    recommend "treating" the meat with grapefruit-seed extract to kill
                    the bacteria (or anything else). Is it the acidic environment that
                    would do it? I have just been buying Barney good quality meat at
                    Whole foods but am concerned about it. Is there anything we can do
                    to make it safer? Lisa W.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service
                    <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > This message and any attachments are intended for the use of the
                    addressee(s) only and may be confidential and covered by the
                    attorney/client and other privileges. If the reader is not the
                    intended recipient, DO NOT READ, notify sender and delete this
                    message. In addition, be aware that any disclosure, copying,
                    distribution or use of the contents of this message is strictly
                    prohibited.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Susan
                    ... You may want to try baby clams for taurine (really high) and they are quite chewy so I imagine they are good for teeth. The iodine content is comparable to
                    Message 9 of 14 , Jul 3, 2003
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                      --- bcowell <bcowell@...> wrote:
                      > I asked both my vet and vet cardiologist about the
                      > feeding of hearts
                      > and gizzards and they were only positive. I did not
                      > want to feed
                      > these meats to my cats before I checked, but hearts
                      > had been
                      > recommended for taurine and gizzards for teeth
                      > cleaning.

                      You may want to try baby clams for taurine (really
                      high) and they are quite chewy so I imagine they are
                      good for teeth. The iodine content is comparable to
                      chicken. Could Red Tide affect canned baby clams that
                      you know of?

                      > All meat we buy has an issue of bacterial
                      > contamination, especially
                      > chicken.

                      I am going to try beef heart. Rudy doesn't like any
                      chicken.

                      But it is important to remember that the
                      > same bacteria that
                      > give us gastrointestinal disease from eating
                      > contaminated foods are
                      > not the same ones that affect our cats and dogs.


                      I personally would worry most about feeding raw in the
                      context of the members of this list to any cats who
                      are suffering from cardiac cachexia since it does have
                      an effect on immune system function.

                      Some seafood recipes call for marinating in lemon
                      juice as that precooks the seafood. I wonder if this
                      could be a way to feed raw without baterial worry,
                      afterall it is the heat that distroys vitamins.

                      Do you have access to the full text articles that
                      PubMed lists abstracts for?

                      Susan


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                    • bcowell
                      Hi Susan, I ll try the baby clams. I am thinking that little Karamu will love them as she loves most food forms, but Bobo hasn t liked any fishy things I ve
                      Message 10 of 14 , Jul 3, 2003
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                        Hi Susan,
                        I'll try the baby clams. I am thinking that little Karamu will love
                        them as she loves most food forms, but Bobo hasn't liked any fishy
                        things I've tried so he'll most likely not be interested. He's so
                        finicky and of course he's my heart kitty (mitral valve dysplasia).
                        Red Tide is an algal profusion isn't it? Can't see that that would be
                        bad, but I would want to do a search on it... I'll try to today. I
                        can't spend too much time at the computer...I fell down the stairs a
                        couple days ago and can't really sit down still.
                        Marinating in lemon juice would probably do a lot to kill most
                        bacteria. I think some can survive, after all food-borne pathogens
                        survive going through the stomach before causing trouble in your
                        intestines. For example, the bacteria that causes dysentery is
                        resistant to stomach acid, while the more common Salmonella and
                        Vibrio (seafood) are susceptible. So it most likely would be good,
                        but you would then have to see if your cat was interested in lemon-
                        flavored meat!
                        As to PubMed, I used to have access when I was working at the
                        university, and for a bit after I quit (I started questioning what I
                        was doing with my life). The university changed its system and the
                        passwords changed. I've been trying to get my ex-mentor to get me new
                        ID, but she's not so computer savvy so I think I will have to go
                        visit her to see if it can be worked out. Sorry I can't be of help
                        with that right now :(
                        Brigitte

                        --- In feline-heart@yahoogroups.com, Susan <somnamblst@y...> wrote:
                        >
                        > --- bcowell <bcowell@y...> wrote:
                        > > I asked both my vet and vet cardiologist about the
                        > > feeding of hearts
                        > > and gizzards and they were only positive. I did not
                        > > want to feed
                        > > these meats to my cats before I checked, but hearts
                        > > had been
                        > > recommended for taurine and gizzards for teeth
                        > > cleaning.
                        >
                        > You may want to try baby clams for taurine (really
                        > high) and they are quite chewy so I imagine they are
                        > good for teeth. The iodine content is comparable to
                        > chicken. Could Red Tide affect canned baby clams that
                        > you know of?
                        >
                        > > All meat we buy has an issue of bacterial
                        > > contamination, especially
                        > > chicken.
                        >
                        > I am going to try beef heart. Rudy doesn't like any
                        > chicken.
                        >
                        > But it is important to remember that the
                        > > same bacteria that
                        > > give us gastrointestinal disease from eating
                        > > contaminated foods are
                        > > not the same ones that affect our cats and dogs.
                        >
                        >
                        > I personally would worry most about feeding raw in the
                        > context of the members of this list to any cats who
                        > are suffering from cardiac cachexia since it does have
                        > an effect on immune system function.
                        >
                        > Some seafood recipes call for marinating in lemon
                        > juice as that precooks the seafood. I wonder if this
                        > could be a way to feed raw without baterial worry,
                        > afterall it is the heat that distroys vitamins.
                        >
                        > Do you have access to the full text articles that
                        > PubMed lists abstracts for?
                        >
                        > Susan
                        >
                        >
                        > __________________________________
                        > Do you Yahoo!?
                        > SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
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                      • Myra DeTate
                        My hubby found some canned baby clams today at our regular grocery with the ingredients of clams, water, salt, citric acid . Sounds like they are already
                        Message 11 of 14 , Jul 3, 2003
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                          My hubby found some canned baby clams today at our regular grocery
                          with the ingredients of "clams, water, salt, citric acid". Sounds
                          like they are already marinated. Our Bob loved them!!! I just
                          poured the can out in a collandar & rinsed very well. I only gave
                          him 4 (really small). Trying to keep them for a pill treat. Thanks
                          for the suggestions.

                          Lots of Kitty Kisses,
                          Myra & Bob
                          --- In feline-heart@yahoogroups.com, "bcowell" <bcowell@y...> wrote:
                          > Hi Susan,
                          > I'll try the baby clams. ,
                          > but you would then have to see if your cat was interested in lemon-
                          > flavored meat!
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