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adapting a motorbike starter motor to a screw drive.

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  • Owen Nieuwenhuyse
    Second-hand, these look attractive. $165 , free delivery, nz. One off a 500 single quadbike would do. Problems: 1) Do they all have a built-in planetary
    Message 1 of 4 , Jun 17, 2017
      Second-hand, these look attractive.
      $165 , free delivery, nz.

      One off a 500 single quadbike would do.

      Problems:
      1) Do they all have a built-in planetary reduction?
      the housings look too short for that.

      2) they don't have 2-wire connection. How can I
      do an insulated mount? What about the shaft? is it electrically separate?

      3) The output shaft is a gear. It doesn't look like it would take
      a side-load. Do the ones without an outrigger bit beyond the gear
      support themselves, or go into a planetary set?

      4) where can I get a mating sleeve to fit over the gear cut into
      the shaft? They are all different sizes. Can I easily make an adapter
      drive? ie: tangential pin drive? How hard is the material?

      6) who can I ask about this stuff? Have people written articles
      on the subject? I can google "repurposing motorcycle starter motors"
      or similar query. Any ideas on what query will get the best result?

      7) what are the torque, amps,rpm ratings?
      Are there listings, examples somewhere.
      They should have a substantial torque output.

      8) Is it more practical to look for a gear motor from new?
      Which spec do I need to get one with similar characteristics
      re: duty cycle, light weight, rpm out, torque? I thought something
      like 40 amps would be enough. With low efficiency, do they draw
      a lot more current?
      ******************************************************************


      --
      Owen Nieuwenhuyse
    • Owen Nieuwenhuyse
      This probably violates the rule of answering your own questions, but some people may like to know the answers, so I am sharing, here. On 18/06/2017 8:21 AM,
      Message 2 of 4 , Jun 17, 2017
        This probably violates the rule of answering your own questions,
        but some people may like to know the answers, so I am sharing, here.

        On 18/06/2017 8:21 AM, Owen Nieuwenhuyse nieuweo@...
        [feet_forward] wrote:
        > Second-hand, these look attractive.
        > $165 , free delivery, nz.
        >
        > One off a 500 single quadbike would do.
        >
        > Problems:
        > 1) Do they all have a built-in planetary reduction?
        > the housings look too short for that.
        * no: 1980's Yamaha bikes and Yamaha Viragos only, for large engines.
        I haven't found any modern bikes with planetary reductions.
        >
        > 2) they don't have 2-wire connection. How can I
        > do an insulated mount? What about the shaft? is it electrically separate?
        ** You can redirect the internal connection to an external wire. **
        >
        > 3) The output shaft is a gear. It doesn't look like it would take
        > a side-load. Do the ones without an outrigger bit beyond the gear
        > support themselves, or go into a planetary set?

        * usually not planetary reduction *
        >
        > 4) where can I get a mating sleeve to fit over the gear cut into
        > the shaft? They are all different sizes. Can I easily make an adapter
        > drive? ie: tangential pin drive? How hard is the material?
        >
        > 6) who can I ask about this stuff? Have people written articles
        > on the subject? I can google "repurposing motorcycle starter motors"
        > or similar query. Any ideas on what query will get the best result?

        *** http://www.dansmc.com/electric_starters.htm

        http://www.instructables.com/answers/Motorbike-starter-motor-on-a-Scooter/

        "https://nz.pinterest.com/pin/410460953521982059/
        Jayson Micheal saved to DIY & Repurpose
        Convert Car Starter Motor for Go Kart Use"
        ****
        >
        > 7) what are the torque, amps,rpm ratings?
        > Are there listings, examples somewhere.
        > They should have a substantial torque output.

        * depends on load -need a load/torque/current/rpm plot.
        >
        > 8) Is it more practical to look for a gear motor from new?
        > Which spec do I need to get one with similar characteristics
        > re: duty cycle, light weight, rpm out, torque? I thought something
        > like 40 amps would be enough. With low efficiency, do they draw
        > a lot more current?

        *** not found via Google, Alibaba ***
        ************************************************************************
        Summary:
        --------
        It is NOT a good idea.

        The motors are series wound, and have the wrong torque/speed
        characteristics. They are likely to overrev.

        You could possible rewire them to parallel- What speed and torque they
        would run at is anyones guess.

        I will run a query and see if anyone has published info on this.

        No-one seems to make a commercial emotor with this kind of duty cycle,
        and light weight with high power.

        You can run a torque-controlled gocart or scooter with a car starter,
        suitably modified, iff you add an external cooling fan and some
        cooling fins or "porcupine quills", and stop every now and then as it
        heats up.

        Possibly there are people making fairly light smallish brush motors for
        small electric vehicles-I will change the search queries into this area,
        But they are quite expensive, and generally not 12 volts.


        --
        Owen Nieuwenhuyse
      • Dan Whitfield
        The starter motor drive on ECO landing gear has torn teeth off the toothed belt. It is too strong. It whips the gear down in half a second actual time.
        Message 3 of 4 , Jun 18, 2017
          The starter motor drive on ECO landing gear has torn teeth off the toothed belt.  It is too strong.  It whips the gear down in half a second actual time. 

          Although the limit switches stop 12V at lock position, inertia of heavy armature driving through double reduction devices packs a mean punch when gear crank hits positive rubber stop.  Can bounce out of lock position.

          I try to jog the gear up or down in two taps of the switch to slow it down.

          On Sun, Jun 18, 2017 at 2:57 AM, Owen Nieuwenhuyse nieuweo@... [feet_forward] <feet_forward@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
           

          This probably violates the rule of answering your own questions,
          but some people may like to know the answers, so I am sharing, here.

          On 18/06/2017 8:21 AM, Owen Nieuwenhuyse nieuweo@...
          [feet_forward] wrote:
          > Second-hand, these look attractive.
          > $165 , free delivery, nz.
          >
          > One off a 500 single quadbike would do.
          >
          > Problems:
          > 1) Do they all have a built-in planetary reduction?
          > the housings look too short for that.
          * no: 1980's Yamaha bikes and Yamaha Viragos only, for large engines.
          I haven't found any modern bikes with planetary reductions.
          >
          > 2) they don't have 2-wire connection. How can I
          > do an insulated mount? What about the shaft? is it electrically separate?
          ** You can redirect the internal connection to an external wire. **
          >
          > 3) The output shaft is a gear. It doesn't look like it would take
          > a side-load. Do the ones without an outrigger bit beyond the gear
          > support themselves, or go into a planetary set?

          * usually not planetary reduction *
          >
          > 4) where can I get a mating sleeve to fit over the gear cut into
          > the shaft? They are all different sizes. Can I easily make an adapter
          > drive? ie: tangential pin drive? How hard is the material?
          >
          > 6) who can I ask about this stuff? Have people written articles
          > on the subject? I can google "repurposing motorcycle starter motors"
          > or similar query. Any ideas on what query will get the best result?

          *** http://www.dansmc.com/ electric_starters.htm

          http://www.instructables.com/ answers/Motorbike-starter- motor-on-a-Scooter/

          "https://nz.pinterest.com/pin/ 410460953521982059/
          Jayson Micheal saved to DIY & Repurpose
          Convert Car Starter Motor for Go Kart Use"
          ****
          >
          > 7) what are the torque, amps,rpm ratings?
          > Are there listings, examples somewhere.
          > They should have a substantial torque output.

          * depends on load -need a load/torque/current/rpm plot.
          >
          > 8) Is it more practical to look for a gear motor from new?
          > Which spec do I need to get one with similar characteristics
          > re: duty cycle, light weight, rpm out, torque? I thought something
          > like 40 amps would be enough. With low efficiency, do they draw
          > a lot more current?

          *** not found via Google, Alibaba ***
          ****************************** ****************************** ************
          Summary:
          --------
          It is NOT a good idea.

          The motors are series wound, and have the wrong torque/speed
          characteristics. They are likely to overrev.

          You could possible rewire them to parallel- What speed and torque they
          would run at is anyones guess.

          I will run a query and see if anyone has published info on this.

          No-one seems to make a commercial emotor with this kind of duty cycle,
          and light weight with high power.

          You can run a torque-controlled gocart or scooter with a car starter,
          suitably modified, iff you add an external cooling fan and some
          cooling fins or "porcupine quills", and stop every now and then as it
          heats up.

          Possibly there are people making fairly light smallish brush motors for
          small electric vehicles-I will change the search queries into this area,
          But they are quite expensive, and generally not 12 volts.

          --
          Owen Nieuwenhuyse


        • Owen Nieuwenhuyse
          On 19/06/2017 3:30 AM, Dan Whitfield whitfield.dan@gmail.com ... By Owen: Are you sure it is a starter motor? I would have thought, after my reading, that a
          Message 4 of 4 , Jun 18, 2017
            On 19/06/2017 3:30 AM, Dan Whitfield whitfield.dan@...
            [feet_forward] wrote:
            > The starter motor drive on ECO landing gear has torn teeth off the
            > toothed belt. It is too strong. It whips the gear down in half a
            > second actual time.

            By Owen:
            Are you sure it is a starter motor? I would have thought, after my
            reading, that a motor and reduction box off a 4-wheel drive winch would
            be more suitable,
            as they are reversible and constant speed. Maybe slowish rpm, not as
            powerful? To reverse a starter motor, you need to take 3 wires out of
            the case plus ground the case(as usual), and have 6 starter solenoids,
            to keep it a series motor.
            I don't see how it could be done with 4.

            I suspect it would cook the internal bits if it were rewired to parallel
            (shunt).

            You need to reverse either the field or
            the armature to reverse the motor, but not both. the winch motor is
            already set up for reversing.

            Wiring diagram:
            --------------------------
            https://flic.kr/p/VVfoep

            F = field
            A = armature
            P = power (battery)
            E = earth
            1 - 6 = starter solenoid switches.
            --------------------------------------
            >
            > Although the limit switches stop 12V at lock position, inertia of the heavy
            > armature driving through double reduction devices packs a mean punch
            > when gear crank hits positive rubber stop. Can bounce out of lock position.
            By Owen:
            Hopefully my idea, with the brake on the motor shaft, won't be so rough.
            I suspect the drop will be quite quick, assisted by gravity, but it may
            take a couple of seconds to lift - slowing the motor to develop torque.

            I haven't worked out a motor shutoff system on drop, yet.
            Maybe I need to sense the speed/load/jolt profile in some way.
            There doesn't seem to be any way to use a limit switch.
            Freewheel and relock the drive would be nice.

            (Arduino, extra sensors?? I don't know yet).
            Maybe a feeler whisker which detects ground level?-(or various other ideas)
            >
            > I try to jog the gear up or down in two taps of the switch to slow it down.
            [snip]

            --
            Owen Nieuwenhuyse
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