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use of go-cart slicks as landing wheels.

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  • Owen Nieuwenhuyse
    sizes 3.5 wide (and up), 6 inch rims, 10 or 11 inches OD. these normally run fairly low pressure. this is around the right width for me. Could they run 25-30
    Message 1 of 6 , Jun 11, 2017
      sizes 3.5 wide (and up), 6 inch rims, 10 or 11 inches OD.
      these normally run fairly low pressure.
      this is around the right width for me.

      Could they run 25-30 psi and support the rear of a motorcycle on one
      side, do you think? that could be up to 400 lbs including rider and some
      luggage.
      This could allow some low-speed cornering with the wheels down.
      You could go around a corner in town up to 20mph, which would
      load up one wheel. 1m over the tires should allow some stability.

      8 inches doesn't seem to be a popular size for go-carts.
      The front hubs have 2 ballraces pressed in.

      --
      Owen Nieuwenhuyse
    • Colin Russell
      I may be one of the few people in the UK to recently crash (lose control of) a Peraves ecomobile at speed (50mph). The cause of the accident apart from my
      Message 2 of 6 , Jun 12, 2017
        I may be one of the few people in the UK to recently crash (lose control of) a Peraves ecomobile at speed (50mph).   The cause of the accident apart from my own stupidity was the contact of my very grippy training wheels touching down on a bend and despite them being sprung and damped, it caused an irretrievable loss of  vehicle control.  The ecomobile took me straight to the scene of the accident, which fortunately was over a smooth grass verge and on to a recently tilled farmers field.  The ecomobile went down softly to the right and proceeded to plough a berm in the soil.  When just about stationary, it flipped over the high side and landed on the left hand side training wheel.  After a cockpit evacuation I was pleased to see that zero damage to the ecomobile apart from a few bits of grass on the training wheel shock absorbers and a light covering of dust that I had kicked up.  As I can talk with some limited authority on the subject, I implore you to reassess approach to the landing wheel requirement. IMHO any third wheel contact in a bend is at best a dangerous situation where loss of partial or total control authority is more or less guaranteed. I was foolish to use My own training wheels on the public highway.  I got away with it and I managed to get help from passers by to get Eco back on its regular landing gear.    These type of training wheels are essential if you wish to learn to ride an Eco safely at low speed in a controlled environment I.e. on an airfield or private road.  They will mitigate against potential novice damage in a wheels up stop or tip over, but they MUST NOT be used on the road.  I therefore cannot see any value in designing a system that you are proposing, in fact I would strongly advise against it.  
        Colin Russell

         

        On Monday, 12 June 2017, Owen Nieuwenhuyse nieuweo@... [feet_forward] <feet_forward@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

         

        sizes 3.5 wide (and up), 6 inch rims, 10 or 11 inches OD.
        these normally run fairly low pressure.
        this is around the right width for me.

        Could they run 25-30 psi and support the rear of a motorcycle on one
        side, do you think? that could be up to 400 lbs including rider and some
        luggage.
        This could allow some low-speed cornering with the wheels down.
        You could go around a corner in town up to 20mph, which would
        load up one wheel. 1m over the tires should allow some stability.

        8 inches doesn't seem to be a popular size for go-carts.
        The front hubs have 2 ballraces pressed in.

        --
        Owen Nieuwenhuyse

      • Owen Nieuwenhuyse
        https://flic.kr/p/UtMfSa Some of these non-highway tires have fairly good pressure and load specs. I wonder who stocks them? I suppose I can email a few local
        Message 3 of 6 , Jun 12, 2017
          https://flic.kr/p/UtMfSa

          Some of these non-highway tires have fairly good
          pressure and load specs. I wonder who stocks them?
          I suppose I can email a few local tire companies.

          410/350-5 sawtooth 50 psi , 10.6 x 4.0 inch, 350 lbs rating.

          This is fairly close to my 400 lbs estimate, and with 50 psi,
          it shouldn't deflect much.
          What do you think? would it survive round-town driving
          (30 mph max) with the jockey wheels down and locked?
          I think most of these use tubes.

          The rear of a Goldwing with rider plus passenger
          would be well over 400 lbs.
          My proposed single-seat setup wouldn't get wheel load anywhere near
          a fully loaded tourer.


          --
          Owen Nieuwenhuyse
        • Owen Nieuwenhuyse
          ... By Owen: The idea is to have all 3 rear wheels on the ground when they are locked, and to limit cornering to city-type intersections at quite low speeds. I
          Message 4 of 6 , Jun 12, 2017
            On 12/06/2017 7:12 PM, Colin Russell CORUS2000@... [feet_forward] wrote:
            > I may be one of the few people in the UK to recently crash (lose control
            > of) a Peraves ecomobile at speed (50mph). The cause of the accident
            > apart from my own stupidity was the contact of my very grippy training
            > wheels touching down on a bend and despite them being sprung and damped,
            > it caused an irretrievable loss of vehicle control. The ecomobile took
            > me straight to the scene of the accident, which fortunately was over a
            > smooth grass verge and on to a recently tilled farmers field. The
            > ecomobile went down softly to the right and proceeded to plough a berm
            > in the soil. When just about stationary, it flipped over the high side
            > and landed on the left hand side training wheel. After a cockpit
            > evacuation I was pleased to see that zero damage to the ecomobile apart
            > from a few bits of grass on the training wheel shock absorbers and a
            > light covering of dust that! I had kicked up. As I can talk with some
            > limited authority on the subject, I implore you to reassess approach to
            > the landing wheel requirement. IMHO any third wheel contact in a bend is
            > at best a dangerous situation where loss of partial or total control
            > authority is more or less guaranteed. I was foolish to use My own
            > training wheels on the public highway. I got away with it and I managed
            > to get help from passers by to get Eco back on its regular landing gear.
            > These type of training wheels are essential if you wish to learn to
            > ride an Eco safely at low speed in a controlled environment I.e. on an
            > airfield or private road. They will mitigate against potential novice
            > damage in a wheels up stop or tip over, but they MUST NOT be used on the
            > road. I therefore cannot see any value in designing a system that you
            > are proposing, in fact I would strongly advise against it.
            By Owen:
            The idea is to have all 3 rear wheels on the ground when they are locked,
            and to limit cornering to city-type intersections at quite low speeds.
            I think the ECO is capable of doing this with its standard stabilizer
            wheels down, but with quite heavy steering.

            In the lifted position, they should not contact until about 45 degrees
            of lean, and would probably have the same effect as dragging a
            centerstand- you just can't tighten the turn any more.

            The only "different" features are that the jockey wheels are right
            alongside the rear wheel, and they are "free-dropped" and separately
            locked and unlocked without raising them. The "raise" operation
            is also separate.
            You could run with them trailing free and hopping along the road, with
            only a risk of overrevving and blowing them out
            or throwing the tread at very high speeds.

            I intend to raise them over about 15 mph. I expect the transition to be
            a bit easier than the eco, as the bike can be nearly fully rebalanced
            when sitting still, and both jockey wheels touch the ground at the same
            time, so there is less "slop" in the balance.

            --
            Owen Nieuwenhuyse
          • Ed Form
            Your accident was caused by the bike and one outrigger becoming a tripod with roll-resistance big enough to lever-up and unstick one or other [the rear
            Message 5 of 6 , Jun 12, 2017

              Your accident was caused by the bike and one outrigger becoming a tripod with roll-resistance big enough to lever-up and unstick one or other [the rear probably] of the main wheels. The sidewinder system, which I’ve proposed to double up as training wheels, does not have this difficulty – it has no springs or dampers and rolls in parallelogram with the vehicle exerting no jacking force on the main wheels. In contrast to your guesswork conclusion on the safety of third wheels, between my son and me, I can report thousands of miles with a single sided version and no loss of control, ever! I actually think vehicle control was enhanced but that was a feeling and not any kind of measurement.

              The system places no significant download, or side load, on the outrigger wheels because they are only locked when stationary; as soon as the vehicle begins to move the wheels should be unlocked and the plot will transition smoothly into balance exactly as would a leg-balanced motorcycle - it will have begun to move with the vehicle vertical anyway and the force on its two ‘legs’ will have been very small. In the rare event of an out-of-vertical stop, the vehicle is no worse off than an Ecomobile on camber.

              All the complications like springs, dampers and ‘soft’ landing systems that have been added to the fundamentally crude Ecomobile system bring with them the danger, which you recently encountered, of touching the roll-resistant outriggers down at a time when roll is necessary. I’m glad to hear that you were undamaged and that the precious asset to our community in which you crashed remains intact.

              Ed  Form

               

              From: feet_forward@yahoogroups.com [mailto:feet_forward@yahoogroups.com]
              Sent: 12 June 2017 08:13
              To: feet_forward@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [FF] use of go-cart slicks as landing wheels.

               

               

              I may be one of the few people in the UK to recently crash (lose control of) a Peraves ecomobile at speed (50mph).   The cause of the accident apart from my own stupidity was the contact of my very grippy training wheels touching down on a bend and despite them being sprung and damped, it caused an irretrievable loss of  vehicle control.  The ecomobile took me straight to the scene of the accident, which fortunately was over a smooth grass verge and on to a recently tilled farmers field.  The ecomobile went down softly to the right and proceeded to plough a berm in the soil.  When just about stationary, it flipped over the high side and landed on the left hand side training wheel.  After a cockpit evacuation I was pleased to see that zero damage to the ecomobile apart from a few bits of grass on the training wheel shock absorbers and a light covering of dust that I had kicked up.  As I can talk with some limited authority on the subject, I implore you to reassess approach to the landing wheel requirement. IMHO any third wheel contact in a bend is at best a dangerous situation where loss of partial or total control authority is more or less guaranteed. I was foolish to use My own training wheels on the public highway.  I got away with it and I managed to get help from passers by to get Eco back on its regular landing gear.    These type of training wheels are essential if you wish to learn to ride an Eco safely at low speed in a controlled environment I.e. on an airfield or private road.  They will mitigate against potential novice damage in a wheels up stop or tip over, but they MUST NOT be used on the road.  I therefore cannot see any value in designing a system that you are proposing, in fact I would strongly advise against it.  

              Colin Russell

               

               

              On Monday, 12 June 2017, Owen Nieuwenhuyse nieuweo@... [feet_forward] <feet_forward@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

               

               

              sizes 3.5 wide (and up), 6 inch rims, 10 or 11 inches OD.
              these normally run fairly low pressure.
              this is around the right width for me.

              Could they run 25-30 psi and support the rear of a motorcycle on one
              side, do you think? that could be up to 400 lbs including rider and some
              luggage.
              This could allow some low-speed cornering with the wheels down.
              You could go around a corner in town up to 20mph, which would
              load up one wheel. 1m over the tires should allow some stability.

              8 inches doesn't seem to be a popular size for go-carts.
              The front hubs have 2 ballraces pressed in.

              --
              Owen Nieuwenhuyse

            • Owen Nieuwenhuyse
              On 12/06/2017 7:46 PM, Ed Form ed.form@workgroupsolutions.co.uk ... [snip] By Owen: It could simply be locking the bike into a very wide arc that ran off the
              Message 6 of 6 , Jun 12, 2017
                On 12/06/2017 7:46 PM, 'Ed Form' ed.form@...
                [feet_forward] wrote:
                > Your accident was caused by the bike and one outrigger becoming a tripod
                > with roll-resistance big enough to lever-up and unstick one or other
                > [the rear probably] of the main wheels.
                [snip]
                By Owen:
                It could simply be locking the bike into a very wide arc that ran off
                the corner, if it was in 2-wheel mode at the time.
                You would be counter-steering at the time.

                The only way to turn tighter would be to completely reverse the steering
                to normal steer, pop up and over onto the outside outrigger, then steer
                like a car. That may be too much for the bike stability, and lead to
                an instant high-side roll, while on the tarmac.


                --
                Owen Nieuwenhuyse
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