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[FF] Re: Doors on nArrow Streets - choice of three Sir...

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  • Roy Gardiner
    ... Thankyou Carey, our collection of armchair experts here are indeed a constant source of inspiration to the real world product developer... ... Good news!
    Message 1 of 27 , Dec 1, 2006
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      --- In feet_forward@yahoogroups.com, "careyhuffman"
      <careyhuffman@...> wrote:

      > I want to congratulate you on your design and successful production
      > of what some seemed to doubt so strongly even existed. Bravo!

      Thankyou Carey, our collection of armchair experts here are indeed a
      constant source of inspiration to the real world product developer...

      > As far as the two doors versus one goes in our litigious American
      > society, I doubt it would really make a difference. The nArrow is
      > going to be classified as a trike/motorcycle by most of the states
      > over here, and thus will enjoy parking nose first into the curb.
      > Dismounting/exiting on either side will not place the rider
      > directly into the pathway of street traffic.

      Good news!

      > Having written that though, I firmly agree with the two door
      > approach unless is weakens the structure.

      No, they don't as they are framed by the Carbon/kevlar perimeter
      frame/roll cage - whatever you want to call it!

      > Sliding doors is a key design element. It improve ingress/egress
      > opportunities and reduces the intrusion of rain or snow into the
      > cabin. Ever see a whole line of motorcycle parked along the
      > curbside or in a motorcycle bay? No way a conventional door is
      > going to be opened sufficiently to allow access once the other
      > bikes park smack up along side of the nArrow.
      > Also, the top opening cabin-bikes allow
      > for the rain/snow to enter at the same time you are. Who wants to
      > sit on a wet seat when you are buying a weather-proof cabin-bike.

      > The price at about $14,000 USD seems a bit steep for the market,
      > and that's not even counting in the cost of shipping. Of course
      > you will set the price based on production and estimated comparable
      > market value, but I think $14K might put off many a potential cross-
      > over purchaser.

      Overseas prices are nowhere near confirmed yet Carey, depends on
      component pricing in those markets from our suppliers to a large
      extent...I'll let you know as soon as we have firmed up a kit price
      for those clamouring for nArrows in the USA.

      > The cheapest new Honda isn't much more than that over here.

      Yes, there will always be a cheap 'CWD' option (Cold/Wet/Dead) for
      Personal Transports...

      > Well, this turned out longer than the short congratulatory note I
      > intended. So, in closing, Hoorah, Hoorah, Hoorah for a beautiful
      > machine I hope someday to drive on this side of the Pond.

      Good to hear from you again and thanks for your encouraging words.

      All the best,

      Roy
    • royce
      ... Well Gosh. You learn something new every day. I ve been working with offside as the side away from the kerb, and obviously nearside as the side
      Message 2 of 27 , Dec 1, 2006
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        Dave Williams wrote:

        >David Scott wrote:
        >
        >
        >
        >>It's all a nonsense anyway, with any normal 4 wheeled vehicle the
        >>driver's door is normally on the offside of the vehicle no matter what
        >>side of the road one drives on.
        >>
        >>
        >
        > What, you cross the street and park facing oncoming traffic?!
        >
        > Nearside: next to oncoming traffic (normally the driver's side)
        > Offside: the side next to the curb
        >
        >
        Well Gosh. You learn something new every day. I've been working with
        'offside' as the side away from the kerb, and obviously 'nearside' as
        the side nearest the kerb for my whole life, although in the vehicle
        engineering I've experienced the terms 'left' and 'right' were used to
        avoid confusion among people used to driving on different sides of the
        road (e.g. LR, RF for Left Rear and Right Front, wheels). Left and
        right always defined from the operators position in the vehicle.

        And for what it's worth dodging people pulling out from a parked
        position facing oncoming traffic, which the driver can't see 'cos
        they're next to the kerb, is a real problem for STV's.

        Royce
      • royce
        I just wondered Mr. Moderator, Sir, Why is there all this tilting, multi-track stuff cluttering up this list? Aren t they on speaking terms with their
        Message 3 of 27 , Dec 1, 2006
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          I just wondered Mr. Moderator, Sir, Why is there all this tilting,
          multi-track stuff cluttering up this list? Aren't they on speaking
          terms with their fellow enthusiasts or what?

          'Course, if that's what this list wants to talk about it's a free world,
          but , but I'd like to know. If it's going to carry on like this I'm off.

          Royce

          >
          >
        • Alex/Dominic Lowe
          ... Further clarification Dave (and Roy - who should know better!) UK: LHS of vehicle = kerb side of carriageway = access to pavement (sic) RHS of vehicle =
          Message 4 of 27 , Dec 1, 2006
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            >>Dave Williams wrote:
            >>What, you cross the street and park facing oncoming traffic?!
            >>Nearside: next to oncoming traffic (normally the driver's side)
            >>Offside: the side next to the curb

            >Roy Gardiner <RoyGA@...> wrote:
            >Transatlantic divide again Dave! In the UK we call the side next to
            >the pavement/kerb the 'near side' and the other side the 'off side'!.

            Further clarification Dave (and Roy - who should know better!)

            UK:
            LHS of vehicle = kerb side of carriageway = access to pavement (sic)
            RHS of vehicle = crown side of carriageway = access to road (sic)

            Note that our Merkun friends call the pavement SIDEWALK! and call the
            road PAVEMENT!

            Dominic

            Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
          • Peter Fouché
            The recent weather has allowed some experimentation (in the cold and wet about not getting dead). My bike has a low COP (unlike the rider) due to a lot of low
            Message 5 of 27 , Dec 1, 2006
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              The recent weather has allowed some experimentation (in the cold and
              wet about not getting dead).

              My bike has a low COP (unlike the rider) due to a lot of low bodywork.
              I have been testing my assumptions about wind gusts. It does seem that
              the bike survives gusts quite well without rider intervention (loose
              grip) although it might end up on a different part of the road.

              Although my instinct is to slow down when getting buffeted, it seemes
              that at low speeds (ie 10 - 20 mph) gusts start to become dangerous.

              Is this a common observation? What is the difference, in this respect,
              between motorised bicycles and (2 wheeled) FFs?

              Peter
            • Bob Wreford
              ... seemes ... dangerous. ... respect, ... Hi Peter, FWIW my recent experience was 40/50 mph crosswinds (according to that evening s news, I have no pitot or
              Message 6 of 27 , Dec 1, 2006
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                --- In feet_forward@yahoogroups.com, Peter Fouché <peter_fouche@...>
                wrote:
                >
                > Although my instinct is to slow down when getting buffeted, it
                seemes
                > that at low speeds (ie 10 - 20 mph) gusts start to become
                dangerous.
                >
                > Is this a common observation? What is the difference, in this
                respect,
                > between motorised bicycles and (2 wheeled) FFs?
                >

                Hi Peter,

                FWIW my recent experience was 40/50 mph crosswinds (according to
                that evening's news, I have no pitot or other way of measuring
                crosswinds(!)on an elevated part of exposed motorway.

                In my usual life-preserving state I slowed to 40 mph and just
                maintained that speed, slower meant the high sided trucks ganged up
                behind me as I crossed lanes involuntarily, higher meant human wind
                effects became prevalent.... I have no scientic data but I survived
                the trip!

                Mind you I only cruise at 55 mph in good conditions......
              • Arthur Middleton home
                ... First point, higher forward speed reduces the effect of sideways gusts. At 50mph road speed, a 50 mph sideways gust has a resultant force at 45 degrees,
                Message 7 of 27 , Dec 1, 2006
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                  >The recent weather has allowed some experimentation (in the cold and
                  >wet about not getting dead).
                  >
                  >My bike has a low COP (unlike the rider) due to a lot of low bodywork.
                  >I have been testing my assumptions about wind gusts. It does seem that
                  >the bike survives gusts quite well without rider intervention (loose
                  >grip) although it might end up on a different part of the road.
                  >
                  >Although my instinct is to slow down when getting buffeted, it seemes
                  >that at low speeds (ie 10 - 20 mph) gusts start to become dangerous.
                  >
                  >Is this a common observation? What is the difference, in this respect,
                  >between motorised bicycles and (2 wheeled) FFs?
                  >
                  >Peter

                  First point, higher forward speed reduces the effect of sideways gusts. At 50mph road
                  speed, a 50 mph sideways gust has a resultant force at 45 degrees, whereas at standstill,
                  it blows at 90 degrees to the forward direction. [One reason why extrapolating from HPVs
                  can be very misleading.]

                  Second, my GPZFF is a lot more stable in crosswinds than any HF I have had (about 10 that
                  I can think of), until I actually stop. When I stop, I suddenly find myself having to
                  apply significant foot pressure to the lee side to avoid falling over in sideways gusts.

                  Arthur.
                • Julian Bond
                  Arthur Middleton home Fri, 1 Dec 2006 20:20:24 ... There seems to be some optimum speed in gusty weather. Too slow and you get really
                  Message 8 of 27 , Dec 2, 2006
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                    Arthur Middleton home <artmidd@...> Fri, 1 Dec 2006 20:20:24
                    >First point, higher forward speed reduces the effect of sideways gusts.
                    >At 50mph road
                    >speed, a 50 mph sideways gust has a resultant force at 45 degrees,
                    >whereas at standstill,
                    >it blows at 90 degrees to the forward direction. [One reason why
                    >extrapolating from HPVs
                    >can be very misleading.]

                    There seems to be some optimum speed in gusty weather. Too slow and you
                    get really blown about. Too fast and the smaller changes translate into
                    significant road movement before you catch them. So 90mph feels scary,
                    65 feels manageable and 45 is hard work.

                    --
                    Julian Bond E&MSN: julian_bond at voidstar.com M: +44 (0)77 5907 2173
                    Webmaster: http://www.ecademy.com/ T: +44 (0)192 0412 433
                    Personal WebLog: http://www.voidstar.com/ skype:julian.bond?chat
                    *** Just Say No To DRM ***
                  • Julian Bond
                    royce Fri, 1 Dec 2006 09:07:02 ... Beats me. Maybe it s Sales and Marketing selling futures again. Aside: common complaint from IBM
                    Message 9 of 27 , Dec 2, 2006
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                      royce <royce@...> Fri, 1 Dec 2006 09:07:02
                      >I just wondered Mr. Moderator, Sir, Why is there all this tilting,
                      >multi-track stuff cluttering up this list? Aren't they on speaking
                      >terms with their fellow enthusiasts or what?

                      Beats me. Maybe it's Sales and Marketing selling futures again. Aside:
                      common complaint from IBM Salesman's wives. "Why do you only ever tell
                      me how good it's *going* to be."

                      >'Course, if that's what this list wants to talk about it's a free world,
                      >but , but I'd like to know. If it's going to carry on like this I'm off.

                      Yup. I've reached the same conclusion. I've been skipping over posts on
                      this list, which I've never done before.

                      I don't mind the odd post about progress. Or even discussions about
                      clever solutions to outriggers and keeping STVs vertical at standstill.
                      But endless discussions about 3 and 4 wheeled tilting vehicle dynamics
                      should be in the list(s) devoted to that subject, not here.

                      --
                      Julian Bond E&MSN: julian_bond at voidstar.com M: +44 (0)77 5907 2173
                      Webmaster: http://www.ecademy.com/ T: +44 (0)192 0412 433
                      Personal WebLog: http://www.voidstar.com/ skype:julian.bond?chat
                      *** Just Say No To DRM ***
                    • Ian Leslie
                      I go along with this entirely. Can t see the point of TTWs so not interested. I too now delete whole slabs of postings unread. ... From: Julian Bond To:
                      Message 10 of 27 , Dec 2, 2006
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                        I go along with this entirely. Can't see the point of TTWs so not interested. I too now delete whole slabs of postings unread.
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: Julian Bond
                        To: feet_forward@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2006 9:36 AM
                        Subject: Re: [FF] Re: OT traffic.


                        royce <royce@...> Fri, 1 Dec 2006 09:07:02
                        >I just wondered Mr. Moderator, Sir, Why is there all this tilting,
                        >multi-track stuff cluttering up this list? Aren't they on speaking
                        >terms with their fellow enthusiasts or what?

                        Beats me. Maybe it's Sales and Marketing selling futures again. Aside:
                        common complaint from IBM Salesman's wives. "Why do you only ever tell
                        me how good it's *going* to be."

                        >'Course, if that's what this list wants to talk about it's a free world,
                        >but , but I'd like to know. If it's going to carry on like this I'm off.

                        Yup. I've reached the same conclusion. I've been skipping over posts on
                        this list, which I've never done before.

                        I don't mind the odd post about progress. Or even discussions about
                        clever solutions to outriggers and keeping STVs vertical at standstill.
                        But endless discussions about 3 and 4 wheeled tilting vehicle dynamics
                        should be in the list(s) devoted to that subject, not here.

                        --
                        Julian Bond E&MSN: julian_bond at voidstar.com M: +44 (0)77 5907 2173
                        Webmaster: http://www.ecademy.com/ T: +44 (0)192 0412 433
                        Personal WebLog: http://www.voidstar.com/ skype:julian.bond?chat
                        *** Just Say No To DRM ***




                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Arthur Middleton home
                        ... Maybe because they are trying to sell their ideas as being superior to STV s? Or perhaps if they weren t talking about them, there would be no traffic at
                        Message 11 of 27 , Dec 2, 2006
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                          >I just wondered Mr. Moderator, Sir, Why is there all this tilting,
                          >multi-track stuff cluttering up this list? Aren't they on speaking
                          >terms with their fellow enthusiasts or what?

                          Maybe because they are trying to sell their ideas as being superior to STV's?

                          Or perhaps if they weren't talking about them, there would be no traffic at all?

                          It is related, because outriggers for FFs are sort of on topic, and some TTWs are just a
                          variation on outriggers.

                          Arthur.
                        • Arthur Middleton home
                          ... You could be right there, with HFs anyway. I remember riding my Z650 with loads of camping gear and pillion in France in very strong cross winds, and this
                          Message 12 of 27 , Dec 2, 2006
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                            >Arthur Middleton home <artmidd@...> Fri, 1 Dec 2006 20:20:24
                            >>First point, higher forward speed reduces the effect of sideways gusts.
                            >>At 50mph road
                            >>speed, a 50 mph sideways gust has a resultant force at 45 degrees,
                            >>whereas at standstill,
                            >>it blows at 90 degrees to the forward direction. [One reason why
                            >>extrapolating from HPVs
                            >>can be very misleading.]
                            >
                            >There seems to be some optimum speed in gusty weather. Too slow and you
                            >get really blown about. Too fast and the smaller changes translate into
                            >significant road movement before you catch them. So 90mph feels scary,
                            >65 feels manageable and 45 is hard work.
                            >
                            >--
                            >Julian Bond

                            You could be right there, with HFs anyway. I remember riding my Z650 with loads of camping
                            gear and pillion in France in very strong cross winds, and this is what I found. This bike
                            was a bit scary around 90-95 anyway (but the wobble went away over this speed).

                            Arthur.
                          • Roy Gardiner
                            ... wrote: [To Royce s:] ... Sorry Royce, probably my fault for actually developing something that was an FF project originally and publishing
                            Message 13 of 27 , Dec 2, 2006
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                              --- In feet_forward@yahoogroups.com, "Arthur Middleton home"
                              <artmidd@...> wrote:

                              [To Royce's:]
                              > > I just wondered Mr. Moderator, Sir, Why is there all this
                              > > tilting, multi-track stuff cluttering up this list? Aren't they
                              > > on speaking terms with their fellow enthusiasts or what?

                              Sorry Royce, probably my fault for actually developing something that
                              was an FF project originally and publishing details here, as
                              requested by numerous FF list members (I do keep asking - they want
                              me to keep doing it).

                              A considerable number of FF listers have now joined the Tilting list,
                              the comparative membership numbers have been fascinating to watch
                              over the last year, even the odious Kew has now 'gone over' I see.

                              It's only because imaginative development is actually still happening
                              with enclosed tilters acknowlwedge the inadequacy of stabilisers, so
                              switched to three wheels to keep the thing up at a standstill.

                              Maybe its your fault too for retiring from FF development work, the
                              last bastion of the FF believers having hung up his FFE sword....

                              [and Arthur's:]

                              > Maybe because they are trying to sell their ideas as being superior
                              > to STV's?

                              Not at all, each to his own, we all know Royce & co's unfathomable
                              preference for C/W/D STV motoring, but since Royce 'retired' from FF
                              development work no-one else is doing anything it seems, so FF
                              development is now officially dead.

                              > Or perhaps if they weren't talking about them, there would be no
                              > traffic at all?

                              Spot on as usual Arthur; the FF list has been moribund for many
                              months since nothing of significance has happened 'post-Royce'.

                              I wonder why?.

                              > It is related, because outriggers for FFs are sort of on topic, and
                              > some TTWs are just a variation on outriggers.

                              Outriggers are only on topic if you want a safe, (i.e. enclosed with
                              driver restraint) tilting vehicle. OK, FF TTWs are closely related
                              technically but apparently too safe, sensible and practical for the
                              traditional old FF STV enthusiasts here.

                              IMO the (big) future for narrow tilting vehicles is inevitably linked
                              to safe, (i.e. low cost to Government) full enclosure designs and
                              there is no commercial future for FF designs - bike manufacturers
                              are making obscene fortunes out of incredibly dangerous HF sports
                              STVs at the 'no-cost to us' expense of their customer's lives - so
                              why would they bother spending money changing to anything better?.

                              It can't be too long now until legislation compels STV makers to
                              offer (some!) protection to their customers; I see Piaggio as
                              pioneers in anticipation of those changes, the MP3 is just an open
                              plan TTW after all, waiting for it's bodywork.

                              Roy
                            • royce
                              ... , my GPZFF is a lot more stable in crosswinds than any HF I have had (about 10 thatI can think of), until I actually stop. When I stop, I suddenly find
                              Message 14 of 27 , Dec 2, 2006
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                                Arthur Middleton home wrote:

                                >snip....
                                >
                                , my GPZFF is a lot more stable in crosswinds than any HF I have had (about 10 thatI can think of), until I actually stop. When I stop, I suddenly find myself having to
                                apply significant foot pressure to the lee side to avoid falling over in sideways gusts.

                                Arthur.


                                That'd be right. I did once ride a proddy Voyager over the (old) Severn Bridge in a gale, with one hand up. This was to convince the well-known journalist following. He didn't notice. (probably too busy holding onto the BMW trailie he was riding)

                                Royce




                                Yahoo! Groups Links
                              • Ian Kew
                                ... I was following a Hodna Dullvile who was obviously struggling in the crosswinds but when we reached the next town as soon as we stopped it was me who, like
                                Message 15 of 27 , Dec 2, 2006
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                                  At 18:16 02/12/2006, royce said:
                                  >>, my GPZFF is a lot more stable in crosswinds than any HF I have had (about 10 thatI can think of), until I actually stop. When I stop, I suddenly find myself having to apply significant foot pressure to the lee side to avoid falling over in sideways gusts.
                                  >
                                  >That'd be right. I did once ride a proddy Voyager over the (old) Severn Bridge in a gale, with one hand up. This was to convince the well-known journalist following. He didn't notice. (probably too busy holding onto the BMW trailie he was riding)

                                  I was following a Hodna Dullvile who was obviously struggling in the crosswinds but when we reached the next town as soon as we stopped it was me who, like Arthur, had the struggle in the gusts!

                                  The answer must be not to stop!


                                  Ian

                                  www.voyager03.co.uk

                                  2 + 2 = 5
                                  (for extremely large values of 2)
                                • David Scott
                                  The Deauville is definitely an aerodynamic disaster. Arthur was following me down to Hastings and he said the turbulence from the Deauville was akin to
                                  Message 16 of 27 , Dec 2, 2006
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                                    The Deauville is definitely an aerodynamic disaster. Arthur was
                                    following me down to Hastings and he said the turbulence from the
                                    Deauville was akin to following a transit van. If I had the topbox on
                                    but no pillion bag, at certain speeds I used to get a weird sort of
                                    vibration which I can only assume was a high pressure area, between my
                                    body and the topbox, building up and then collapsing. Really strange.

                                    David.

                                    Ian Kew wrote:

                                    > I was following a Hodna Dullvile who was obviously struggling in the crosswinds but when we reached the next town as soon as we stopped it was me who, like Arthur, had the struggle in the gusts!
                                    >
                                    > The answer must be not to stop!
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Ian
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