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Re: Registering FFs (was: FF m/c site)

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  • roygauk
    ... wrote: [re Tech regulations these days] ... As far as current reg s you need to build kit cars to in the UK, just download the pdf from the SVA, it s at -
    Message 1 of 20 , Dec 1, 2003
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      --- In feet_forward@yahoogroups.com, "Royce Creasey" <royce@h...>
      wrote:

      [re Tech regulations these days]

      > There's a similar system to the kit car people for serial 'low-
      > volume' producers that Roy can probably fill you in on.

      As far as current reg's you need to build kit cars to in the UK, just
      download the pdf from the SVA, it's at -

      http://www.via.gov.uk/vehicle_testing/sva/sva_manual_draft.pdf

      To save you poking around in the fine print (not that bad actually)
      if you can't be arsed, it is mainly concerned with -

      Projections from the bodywork that might hurt pedestrians

      Quality of glazing materials (i.e. screens must be laminated and
      marked) with side windows being less well defined for spec.

      Seats and seat belt provision

      Mirrors (size, positioning)

      plus all the usual MOT (Ministry of Transport in UK) testing criteria
      for brakes, lights, steering etc.

      There is a separate SVA document covering Motorcycles which (oddly
      enough) also covers Motorised Tricycles (even nArrow ones) and the
      oddball four wheeled 'light quadricycles' as discussed here recently:-

      http://www.via.gov.uk/vehicle_testing/msva/msva_inspection_manual.htm

      This has some good chuckles in it, featuring the ability for your
      external protrusions not to deflect a ball (too much) of a specific
      diameter thats rolled over it; I guess it's analagous to a
      pedestrians head...? Anyway - enough balls on this site recently
      (snooker or political).

      (I also found a N.Ireland application form FYI Arthur, n/a to Dublin
      but might be of interest :
      http://www.dvlni.gov.uk/formsfolder/MSVA_NI_Application.pdf)

      Registration numbers

      Using major sub-assemblies from a donor vehicle (when building
      a 'kit' vehicle can enable you to retain the original registration.
      Points are awarded for the engine, gearbox, axles, brakes, etc. You
      need to achieve sufficient points (i.e. enough of the registered
      vehicle!) to keep it's original number (which you can then swap here
      for a 'personalised' plate later on).

      Only reason for doing this IMO is to avoid being allocated the
      dreaded Q prefix number plate which can never be swapped for a
      personalised plate, thus rendering the vehicle forever identified by
      the derisive word 'KIT'.

      The other route is to use all brand-new components to build your
      vehicle (all with receipts as proof etc)and a certificate from the
      manufacturer stating that the vehicle was built from all new
      components by them, the mfr is also obliged to fi the vehicle with a
      registration plate detailing chassis number (no VINs for small scale
      UK mfs yet thank God), vehicle serial number, year of manufacture etc.
      (so guess who's getting nArrow 001?)
      You can then apply for a 'this year' new registration number for your
      new vehicle.

      Roy
    • Royce Creasey
      ... From: roygauk To: Sent: Monday, December 01, 2003 9:52 AM Subject: Re: Registering FFs (was: FF m/c site)
      Message 2 of 20 , Dec 1, 2003
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        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "roygauk" <RoyGA@...>
        To: <feet_forward@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Monday, December 01, 2003 9:52 AM
        Subject: Re: Registering FFs (was: FF m/c site)


        --- In feet_forward@yahoogroups.com, "Royce Creasey" <royce@h...>
        wrote:

        [re Tech regulations these days]

        > There's a similar system to the kit car people for serial 'low-
        > volume' producers that Roy can probably fill you in on.

        As far as current reg's you need to build kit cars to in the UK, just
        download the pdf from the SVA, it's at -

        http://www.via.gov.uk/vehicle_testing/sva/sva_manual_draft.pdf

        To save you poking around in the fine print (not that bad actually)
        if you can't be arsed, it is mainly concerned with -

        Projections from the bodywork that might hurt pedestrians

        Quality of glazing materials (i.e. screens must be laminated and
        marked) with side windows being less well defined for spec.

        Seats and seat belt provision

        Mirrors (size, positioning)

        plus all the usual MOT (Ministry of Transport in UK) testing criteria
        for brakes, lights, steering etc.

        There is a separate SVA document covering Motorcycles which (oddly
        enough) also covers Motorised Tricycles (even nArrow ones) and the
        oddball four wheeled 'light quadricycles' as discussed here recently:-

        http://www.via.gov.uk/vehicle_testing/msva/msva_inspection_manual.htm

        This has some good chuckles in it, featuring the ability for your
        external protrusions not to deflect a ball (too much) of a specific
        diameter thats rolled over it; I guess it's analagous to a
        pedestrians head...? Anyway - enough balls on this site recently
        (snooker or political).

        (I also found a N.Ireland application form FYI Arthur, n/a to Dublin
        but might be of interest :
        http://www.dvlni.gov.uk/formsfolder/MSVA_NI_Application.pdf)

        Registration numbers

        Using major sub-assemblies from a donor vehicle (when building
        a 'kit' vehicle can enable you to retain the original registration.
        Points are awarded for the engine, gearbox, axles, brakes, etc. You
        need to achieve sufficient points (i.e. enough of the registered
        vehicle!) to keep it's original number (which you can then swap here
        for a 'personalised' plate later on).

        Only reason for doing this IMO is to avoid being allocated the
        dreaded Q prefix number plate which can never be swapped for a
        personalised plate, thus rendering the vehicle forever identified by
        the derisive word 'KIT'.

        The other route is to use all brand-new components to build your
        vehicle (all with receipts as proof etc)and a certificate from the
        manufacturer stating that the vehicle was built from all new
        components by them, the mfr is also obliged to fi the vehicle with a
        registration plate detailing chassis number (no VINs for small scale
        UK mfs yet thank God), vehicle serial number, year of manufacture etc.
        (so guess who's getting nArrow 001?)
        You can then apply for a 'this year' new registration number for your
        new vehicle.

        Roy

        Apparantly you can have one major used component, eg Engine Or Gearbox and
        still get a new plate if everything else is 'previously unregistered' So
        003's engine is already under the bench, used but rebuilt and all I need is
        the six-speed tranny with a reciept describing it as 'new, unregistered'
        Not a problem.

        Royce








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      • roygauk
        ... wrote: [When registering a vehicle as Manufactured New] ... Gearbox and still get a new plate if everything else is previously unregistered Thanks Royce
        Message 3 of 20 , Dec 1, 2003
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          --- In feet_forward@yahoogroups.com, "Royce Creasey" <royce@h...>
          wrote:
          [When registering a vehicle as Manufactured New]

          > Apparantly you can have one major used component, eg Engine Or
          Gearbox and still get a new plate if everything else is 'previously
          unregistered'

          Thanks Royce - well worth knowing, ta.
        • EVguru
          ... snip... ... Doesn t apply to PTWs. I had a talk to the MSVA representative at the N.E.C. show about this. The early wording alowed for safety glass, which
          Message 4 of 20 , Dec 1, 2003
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            > To save you poking around in the fine print (not that bad actually)
            > if you can't be arsed, it is mainly concerned with -

            snip...

            > Quality of glazing materials (i.e. screens must be laminated and
            > marked) with side windows being less well defined for spec.

            Doesn't apply to PTWs.

            I had a talk to the MSVA representative at the N.E.C. show about this.

            The early wording alowed for safety glass, which had to be marked to an
            aproved standard, or safety glazing, which could be a plastic that wouldn't
            shatter into dangerous fragments and would not be approval marked. The
            wording was later changed to define safety glass windscreens as being
            required for all bodied vehicles other than mopeds. However in a wonderfull
            bit of official loophole forming, apendix B (I think it's B) states that 'a
            two wheeled vehicle is not a bodied vehicle'. The windscreen wiper regs
            apply only to vehicles with 3 or more wheels.

            The links to the online draft have been removed as it has had many minor
            modifications in its final form. The actual file may not remain there for
            long. I suppose I ought to cough up £30 for the official document.

            Paul Compton
            www.scirccoev.co.uk
          • Alex/Dominic Lowe
            ... Roy, Royce s comment throws up an interesting question for you. Since the majority of your vehicle is new non-donor you can t go through the age-related
            Message 5 of 20 , Dec 1, 2003
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              >>Roy Gardiner wrote:
              >>Using major sub-assemblies from a donor vehicle
              >>can enable you to retain the original registration.
              >>Points are awarded for the engine, gearbox, axles,
              >>brakes, etc. You need to achieve sufficient points
              >>to keep it's original number.
              >>Only reason for doing this is to avoid being
              >>allocated the dreaded Q prefix number plate which
              >>can never be swapped for a personalised plate, thus
              >>rendering the vehicle forever identified by the
              >>derisive word 'KIT'.
              >>The other route is to use all brand-new components
              >>to build your vehicle (all with receipts as proof
              >>etc)and a certificate from the manufacturer stating
              >>that the vehicle was built from all new components
              >>by them, the mfr is also obliged to fit the vehicle
              >>with a registration plate detailing chassis number,
              >>vehicle serial number, year of manufacture etc.
              >>You can then apply for a 'this year' new
              >>registration number for your new vehicle.

              >Royce Creasey wrote:
              >Apparantly you can have one major used component, eg
              >Engine Or Gearbox and still get a new plate if
              >everything else is 'previously unregistered' So
              >003's engine is already under the bench, used but
              >rebuilt and all I need is the six-speed tranny with
              >a reciept describing it as 'new, unregistered' Not a
              >problem.

              Roy,
              Royce's comment throws up an interesting question for
              you.
              Since the majority of your vehicle is new non-donor
              you can't go through the "age-related" procedure and
              retain the original registration number.
              That being the case, does the MSVA test consider the
              engine and gearbox of a BMW or MotoGuzzi as a SINGLE
              major component or as TWO major components.
              If it's the latter it sounds like you (and any
              potential buyer) have a problem.

              The way I understand it, in previous years anything
              like this would be issued with a "Q" plate - no
              questions, but since these don't get issued at all any
              more, you either comply with the system or you can't
              register the vehicle.
              I can think of a way round it in your case (contact me
              off list if you like), but not in all cases.

              The reason for avoiding a "Q" plate is not the
              cosmetic, as in, "Is it a kit or not?". It is to
              enable the owner to get reasonable insurance quotes.
              Many insurers will not quote Q-plated vehicles, or
              only offer exorbitant rates or limited mileage.

              Dominic

              ________________________________________________________________________
              Download Yahoo! Messenger now for a chance to win Live At Knebworth DVDs
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            • David Scott
              The way I remember it when I was registering my home built Mini was: 2 points for engine, 2 for chassis/body, 2 for transmission and 2 for suspension and you
              Message 6 of 20 , Dec 1, 2003
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                The way I remember it when I was registering my home built Mini was: 2
                points for engine, 2 for chassis/body, 2 for transmission and 2 for
                suspension and you needed 6 to retain the original registration. The
                gearbox is normally considered to be part of the transmission, even on a
                Mini. I kept the original reg, 1962, and then later transferred it to my
                new Metro. They then gave me a 1979 reg for the Mini which I thought was
                a bit cheeky as they couldn't explain why I needed an MOT in 1981 on a
                1979 Mini. Burbled on about it not being all new parts and I said "No,
                they're 1962 parts so I'll have a 1962 registration number." They all
                had a good laugh at that. When you find a loophole they won't let you
                exploit it. I could have been churning out 1962 registration numbers ad
                infinitum. I'd be worth a fortune now.

                David.

                Alex/Dominic Lowe wrote:

                >Roy,
                >Royce's comment throws up an interesting question for
                >you.
                >Since the majority of your vehicle is new non-donor
                >you can't go through the "age-related" procedure and
                >retain the original registration number.
                >That being the case, does the MSVA test consider the
                >engine and gearbox of a BMW or MotoGuzzi as a SINGLE
                >major component or as TWO major components.
                >If it's the latter it sounds like you (and any
                >potential buyer) have a problem.
                >
                >The way I understand it, in previous years anything
                >like this would be issued with a "Q" plate - no
                >questions, but since these don't get issued at all any
                >more, you either comply with the system or you can't
                >register the vehicle.
                >I can think of a way round it in your case (contact me
                >off list if you like), but not in all cases.
                >
                >The reason for avoiding a "Q" plate is not the
                >cosmetic, as in, "Is it a kit or not?". It is to
                >enable the owner to get reasonable insurance quotes.
                >Many insurers will not quote Q-plated vehicles, or
                >only offer exorbitant rates or limited mileage.
                >
                >Dominic
                >
                >
              • roygauk
                ... Not so Dominic - after my initial idea of a narrow car based on a suitable donor(s)standard parts, I spent quite some time figuring out the optimum way of
                Message 7 of 20 , Dec 1, 2003
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                  --- In feet_forward@yahoogroups.com, Alex/Dominic Lowe
                  <loslobros@y...> wrote:

                  > >>Roy wrote:
                  > >>Using major sub-assemblies from a donor vehicle
                  > >>can enable you to retain the original registration.

                  > Royce's comment throws up an interesting question for
                  > you. Since the majority of your vehicle is new non-donor
                  > you can't go through the "age-related" procedure and
                  > retain the original registration number.

                  Not so Dominic - after my initial idea of a narrow car based on a
                  suitable donor(s)standard parts, I spent quite some time figuring out
                  the optimum way of doing it (IMHO!). Poor old Mark Crowson got many
                  ear bashings about my ideas as we were rebuilding his trailer for a
                  Brno bash at that time....thanks Mark!

                  I worked out the donor I wanted for build practicality, quality,
                  availability, longevity, all at an affordable price - and arrived at
                  only one solution - the K series BMW.

                  Then I calculated the points that could be gained using the engine,
                  gearbox, swingarm ('axle') wheel, radiator, braking system, lights
                  electronic assemblies etc.

                  Then designed the rest of it to provide a 'dry feet FF' narrow car,
                  with safety fitted as standard.

                  There are more than enough components to retain the original
                  registration number, there had to be as most owners will want to swap
                  to non age-related private numbers which you can't (or couldn't) do
                  from a Q plate.

                  I look forward to building the first 'all new bits' K1200LT-based
                  nArrow for some lucky customer - though God knows what it will cost!

                  Regards,

                  Roy
                • roygauk
                  ... re: SVA glazing regs] ... Hi Paul, I know - Ian Pegram has had many a fascinating chat with the powers that be, as Genesis is indeed a bodied two-wheeler!.
                  Message 8 of 20 , Dec 1, 2003
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                    --- In feet_forward@yahoogroups.com, "EVguru" <evguru@p...> wrote:
                    re: SVA glazing regs]

                    > Doesn't apply to PTWs.

                    Hi Paul,

                    I know - Ian Pegram has had many a fascinating chat with the powers
                    that be, as Genesis is indeed a bodied two-wheeler!.

                    > However in a wonderfull bit of official loophole forming, apendix B
                    > (I think it's B) states that 'a two wheeled vehicle is not a bodied
                    > vehicle'. The windscreen wiper regs apply only to vehicles with 3
                    > or more wheels.

                    Quite! Not the way it read originaly though!

                    I figure that nArrow as a 'motorised tricycle' with a full windscreen
                    would have to have a kosher laminated screen - as per the draft regs,
                    although the prototype (initially at least)has perspex side windows.

                    I guess Ian will let us know how he has fared with 'them upstairs'
                    and give us all a clue...

                    Roy
                  • Alex/Dominic Lowe
                    ... Sorry Roy, I should have given you more credit. By the sounds of it the only parts of the BMW you chuck out are the bodywork, frame and front end. Have you
                    Message 9 of 20 , Dec 2, 2003
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                      >>>Roy wrote:
                      >>>Using major sub-assemblies from a donor vehicle
                      >>>can enable you to retain the original registration.

                      >>I replied:
                      >>Since the majority of your vehicle is new non-donor
                      >>you can't go through the "age-related" procedure
                      >>and retain the original registration number.

                      >Roy wrote:
                      >Not so Dominic - I spent quite some time figuring
                      >out the optimum way of doing it.
                      >I worked out the donor I wanted - the K series BMW.
                      >Then I calculated the points that could be gained
                      >using the engine, gearbox, swingarm ('axle') wheel,
                      >radiator, braking system, lights electronic
                      >assemblies etc.
                      >There are more than enough components to retain the
                      >original registration number, there had to be as
                      >most owners will want to swap to non age-related
                      >private numbers which you can't (or couldn't) do
                      >from a Q plate.

                      Sorry Roy, I should have given you more credit. By the
                      sounds of it the only parts of the BMW you chuck out
                      are the bodywork, frame and front end.
                      Have you ever heard the saying about the Chinese chef
                      and the duck?

                      The only bit left is the "quack".

                      Of course, once your vehicle is registered you can
                      make further modifications provided they don't catch
                      you!

                      Dominic

                      ________________________________________________________________________
                      Download Yahoo! Messenger now for a chance to win Live At Knebworth DVDs
                      http://www.yahoo.co.uk/robbiewilliams
                    • roygauk
                      ... [more waffle from Roy] ... Eeh lad, I m not as green as I m cabbage-looking! ... I really tried to keep the frame and mount the front end to the standard
                      Message 10 of 20 , Dec 2, 2003
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                        --- In feet_forward@yahoogroups.com, Alex/Dominic Lowe
                        <loslobros@y...> wrote:

                        > >>I replied:
                        > >>Since the majority of your vehicle is new non-donor
                        > >>you can't go through the "age-related" procedure
                        > >>and retain the original registration number.
                        >
                        > >Roy wrote:
                        > >Not so Dominic - I spent quite some time figuring
                        > >out the optimum way of doing it.

                        [more waffle from Roy]
                        > Sorry Roy, I should have given you more credit.

                        Eeh lad, I'm not as green as I'm cabbage-looking!

                        > By the sounds of it the only parts of the BMW you chuck out
                        > are the bodywork, frame and front end.

                        I really tried to keep the frame and mount the front end to the
                        standard headstock for speedy building - but my chassis man said -
                        "Ugh - too bloody heavy, bin it" and I always do what I'm told by
                        people I'm paying for their expertise. He also chucked my £20
                        standard (literally) wishbones in the skip too!

                        > Have you ever heard the saying about the Chinese chef
                        > and the duck?
                        > The only bit left is the "quack".

                        Doesn't that only apply if the thing is lime green and revs to 14k?

                        > Of course, once your vehicle is registered you can
                        > make further modifications provided they don't catch
                        > you!

                        Shocking suggestion Dominic.

                        Take care,

                        Roy
                      • Royce Creasey
                        ... From: Alex/Dominic Lowe To: Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2003 6:52 PM Subject: Re: Registering FFs
                        Message 11 of 20 , Dec 3, 2003
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                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: "Alex/Dominic Lowe" <loslobros@...>
                          To: <feet_forward@yahoogroups.com>
                          Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2003 6:52 PM
                          Subject: Re: Registering FFs (was: FF m/c site)
                          snip..
                          >
                          > Of course, once your vehicle is registered you can
                          > make further modifications provided they don't catch
                          > you!
                          >
                          > Dominic>


                          Once it's registered, as far as I can make out, the only thing you need to
                          notify is a change of colour. 001 got turned into an FF by registering a
                          chassis number change. I could have changed the engine at any time. No
                          one, including insurance, seems to be interested in the nature of the seat.

                          Malcome used to specialise, like many special builders, in making sure the
                          piece of frame with the number on it got welded to the new chassis.

                          It's the perfect paperwork that matters...

                          Royce
                        • roygauk
                          ... sure the piece of frame with the number on it got welded to the new chassis. ... Curiously enough my BMW chassis plate appears, pop-rivetted to the nArrow
                          Message 12 of 20 , Dec 3, 2003
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                            --- In feet_forward@yahoogroups.com, "Royce Creasey" <royce@h...>
                            wrote:

                            > > Of course, once your vehicle is registered you can
                            > > make further modifications provided they don't catch
                            > > you!
                            > > Dominic

                            > Malcome used to specialise, like many special builders, in making
                            sure the piece of frame with the number on it got welded to the new
                            chassis.
                            > It's the perfect paperwork that matters...

                            Curiously enough my BMW chassis plate appears, pop-rivetted to the
                            nArrow chassis in a prominent position, alongside the nArrow #001
                            chassis plate.

                            Just hedging my bets...

                            Roy
                          • buntinghooter
                            ... 174?) ... have an ... (of ... If I recollect correctly, OA 174 was a works trade plate rather than a reg. number. (Birmingham issue, pre- Great War). The
                            Message 13 of 20 , Feb 11, 2004
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                              >One I might offer is the Wolseley Gyrocar of the 1920's (reg: OA
                              174?)
                              > >- would you count this amazing 2-wheeler as a FF m/c or not? I
                              have an
                              > >article somewhere about this, I think it was in "Meccano Magazine"
                              (of
                              > >all places!)
                              > >
                              If I recollect correctly, OA 174 was a 'works' trade plate rather
                              than a reg. number. (Birmingham issue, pre- Great War). The Gyro
                              stabiliser of this machine threw me off-track for about three weeks
                              while I was in the early stages of my current FF project. Took me
                              ages to remember that I actually wanted to lean into bends! Maybe
                              I'll have a go at it next. A Leyland chassis ('Sherpa') looks about
                              right, with a petrol-electric drive. Hmmm....
                              BH.
                              > >
                              >
                              > --
                              > Julian Bond Email&MSM: julian.bond@v...
                              > Webmaster: http://www.ecademy.com/
                              > Personal WebLog: http://www.voidstar.com/
                              > M: +44 (0)77 5907 2173 T: +44 (0)192 0412 433
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