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Re: [Fantasy Fiction Dungeon] Discussion

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  • Saje
    Robin Hobb s good, come to think of it. Have you tried Anne Bishop? Has anyone here tried the Black Jewels? Truly the best fantasy series in ages. Bar
    Message 1 of 28 , Aug 3, 2005
      Robin Hobb's good, come to think of it.

      Have you tried Anne Bishop? Has anyone here tried the "Black Jewels?"

      Truly the best fantasy series in ages. Bar none.


      Saje Williams
      Author of the Infinity: Earth Saga
      Book I "Loki's Sin" available now
      http://www.wingsepress.com OR
      http://www.sajewilliams.com
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Matt
      To: fantasyfictiondungeon@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 3:39 PM
      Subject: Re: [Fantasy Fiction Dungeon] Discussion


      I get bogged down sometimes, too, always searching for something
      fresh to digest. Everyone left Robin Hobb off their list and J.V.
      Jones, who are about 10 years into their respective writing careers.
      Nothing really new from either of those lately. I thought the
      Farseer books were really well done and her writing ranks up there
      with Tad Williams as far as it's freshness and lyrical ease.

      Another current would be Elizabeth Haydon, i suppose and Sara
      Douglas.

      I always read David Gemmell. There's nothing like a quick kick to
      your face to get you energized. That's how his books are. Fast,
      furious, no dilly dallying. He has mastered the art of the anti-hero
      and the epic hero as well. That's hard to do.

      I do like Dave Duncan's Kings Blades books. I will always love his
      Magic Casement and A Man of His Word series. One of the best, fun,
      exciting series i've read in a long time. I think they're pretty
      much out of print now, but worth reading if you can find them.
      They're fun. Nothing serious. Just fun. And the magic system he came
      up with was ingenious, in my opinion. It was so simple but sensible
      that I wish everyone can be that in their writing. His Swordsman
      Trilogy was also good. One of my favorites until i read the Magic
      Casement stuff.

      Sean McMullen, for the uninitiated, writes some very time spanning,
      epic science fiction from the land down under. He's published here
      now and has started a very good fantasy series. His sci fiction is
      grandiose but well honed. Souls in the Great Machine is his first, i
      think. Very readable and ooh, ahhh kind of stuff.

      As for Anderson, I think his Seven Suns series is very good which
      i'm reading now. It's space opera so not serious. Haven't read any
      of the Star Wars stuff.

      Another honorable mention would be L.E. Modesitt, Jr.'s Recluce
      books. I'm reading Wellspring of Chaos right now, which gets back
      more to a character driven aspect than the last few books, which
      were political in nature and kind of dry. His whole Chaos/Order
      mythos could be an encylopedia by itself. I'm surprised someone
      hasn't written one, much like the Guide to Middle Earth, Guide to
      the Wheel of time, Guide to the Land, Guide to Narnia, etc.

      I am reading some of Mercedes Lackey's stuff, notably Joust. I read
      her first Bardic Voices book, which i loved right up to the point in
      which in degenerated into cliche driven romantic muck at the end
      that didn't mesh with what she had written the last 200 pages. I was
      disappointed. I'm reading It Takes A Thief and also have Exiles
      Honor to read. She borders on brilliant, but has flashes of
      jingoistic juvenilia on the tip of her fingers sometimes, too.

      I highly recommend Summerland by Michael Chabon. Excellent book.
      That should have been on my list, too. Anyone that can switch genres
      from Pulitzer, National Book Award type stuff like Kavalier and Clay
      was to a magical kids book about baseball and "pixies" has to be one
      hell of a writer.

      I always loved Thieves World, Asprin's Myth books, Piers Anthony
      Xanth books, up to Man from Mundania, i think. And Terry Pratchett
      is starting to grow on me and i'm rereading Douglas Adams' stuff,
      too. I can't wait until Hitchhiker's Guide comes out on DVD next
      month. Some people hated it, but i loved the movie. They captured
      the spirit of the books, which is all that i could have hoped for.

      Hmmm. For a good scifi jaunt, read David Brin's Kiln People book.


      --- In fantasyfictiondungeon@yahoogroups.com, "Saje" <soulsaje@c...>
      wrote:
      > I have to admit I've gotten a little bored with the epic fantasy
      stuff. I really enjoyed both Jordan and Martin...for a time. But
      when each book of Jordan's started ending without any sort of real
      resolution to that novel's storylines, I got just a little fed up.
      >
      > I'll probably catch up with Martin when he's finished. He's the
      kind of writer I'd just prefer to wait to read. I really enjoyed
      the first novel.
      >
      > I didn't get into Goodkind. I can't say why, exactly. It's been
      a while since I read the first book, but I didn't feel caught on
      fire by what he's doing.
      >
      > Frankly, I think Anne Bishop's Black Jewels series blows
      everything all three have written right out of the water. Something
      OTHER than epic fantasy really struck me where I live. Put it to
      you this way--I have never read a fantasy of any kind that you can
      compare it to. It's original.
      >
      > Kinda like mine own, come to think of it. One question I cannot
      answer is "who would you compare your work to?"
      > I can't think of single good example, though I do play with
      concepts that should be familiar to everyone. But my voice, and the
      total picture, is like nothing else you've ever read.
      >
      > I'd LOVE to be the next big thing...but I think it's more likely
      that I'll be the next next big thing, if it happens at all.
      >
      > Stackpole is a possibility. I'm not sure about McMullen...don't
      recognize the name right off. I've never been that big a fan of
      Anderson. Even his Star Wars books never had quite the kick to me
      as Zahn, Stackpole, or even Aaron Allston.
      >
      > Maybe I'm just burned out on the Epic stuff. I cut my teeth on
      LOTR and then Weiss and Hickman's Dragonlance, Guardians of the
      Flame (Joel Rosenberg), Feist's Rift War series, and the Elenium and
      Belgariad by Eddings. And then you've got Lackey's stuff, which
      varies a bit in quality, in my opinion. My favorite of the Valdemar
      books will always be her "Queen's Own" trilogy, personally.
      >
      > But I always also really liked Glen Cook's Black Company and
      Garret P.I. books, , and Jennifer Robeson's Tiger and Del series.
      Not epic fantasy, but something of their own.
      >
      > I put both Gemmel's works and Elizabeth Moon's Paksennarion books
      in the "heroic" category, following and very much improving on the
      traditions of Robert E. Howard.
      >
      > Hell, and then you got Donaldson's "anti-heroic" Chronicles of
      Thomas Covenant.
      >
      > All of these voices have brought something unique to the fantasy
      field.
      >
      > But, I reiterate, I'd pretty much burned out on the epic stuff.
      >
      >
      > Saje Williams
      > Author of the Infinity: Earth Saga
      > Book I "Loki's Sin" available now
      > http://www.wingsepress.com OR
      > http://www.sajewilliams.com
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: Matt
      > To: fantasyfictiondungeon@yahoogroups.com
      > Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2005 9:10 AM
      > Subject: [Fantasy Fiction Dungeon] Discussion
      >
      >
      > Okay, i'm going to throw a hand grenade and see what comes to
      the
      > surface.
      >
      > What are the fundamental differences between Robert Jordan,
      George
      > Martin, and Terry Goodkind?
      >
      > They all write long, unending epic novels with tons of world
      > building, a cast of thousands, and meandering plots that are
      more
      > convoluted than a Gordian knot. Why do we keep buying these
      things?
      > And is there some formula inherent in their makeup that they
      must
      > follow?
      >
      > I'm just curious. I stop reading Jordan at Path of Daggers,
      which
      > i'm halfway through. Martin, i got tired of waiting for A Feast
      of
      > Crows to come forth after waiting 5 years after Storm of Swords
      was
      > published. And Terry Goodkind cranks his out every year, like
      > clockwork. Or every 14 to 16 months, depending.
      >
      > Is it time for a new torch to be passed to someone else, say
      Michael
      > Stackpole, Sean McMullen, Kevin Anderson, to name a few?
      >
      > I only say this because it's cyclic. When i was in highschool,
      Terry
      > Brooks, David Eddings, Tracy Hickman and Margaret Weis were the
      > novelists of the moment.
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > -------------------------------------------------------------------
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      >
      > -------------------------------------------------------------------
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      >
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




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    • Saje
      On Modesitt...I really enjoyed the very first book. It could have gone in my top 10 easily. But I ve ended up dropping every single piece from the rest of
      Message 2 of 28 , Aug 3, 2005
        On Modesitt...I really enjoyed the very first book. It could have gone in my top 10 easily. But I've ended up dropping every single piece from the rest of the series barely a chapter or two into them.

        Political is fine. I'm a huge Dune fan...but I expected something else after the first one and didn't get it.


        Saje Williams
        Author of the Infinity: Earth Saga
        Book I "Loki's Sin" available now
        http://www.wingsepress.com OR
        http://www.sajewilliams.com
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: David Fernau
        To: fantasyfictiondungeon@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 3:45 PM
        Subject: Re: [Fantasy Fiction Dungeon] Discussion


        I am currently on my second run-through of Modesitt's Recluse series,
        reading The Order War right now. I am holding off on Wellspring of Chaos
        till Ordermaster is out in paperback or I end up with $25+ to spare for
        the hardcover version.

        Political, yes, but he still gets into the characters' heads to a
        certain degree... one thing I like about him is that he shows both sides
        sympathetically, which gives the reader a much broader picture of the
        world of Recluse.

        If you want fantasy that makes you think, I heartily recommend it. About
        the only one I don't care for is Towers of the Sunset, but since it
        tells an integral part of the story, I still recommend reading it.

        Matt wrote:

        > Another honorable mention would be L.E. Modesitt, Jr.'s Recluce
        > books. I'm reading Wellspring of Chaos right now, which gets back
        > more to a character driven aspect than the last few books, which
        > were political in nature and kind of dry. His whole Chaos/Order
        > mythos could be an encylopedia by itself. I'm surprised someone
        > hasn't written one, much like the Guide to Middle Earth, Guide to
        > the Wheel of time, Guide to the Land, Guide to Narnia, etc.



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      • David Fernau
        Saje, struggle your way through Towers of the Sunset and then keep reading... in a later book (the 5th, I think), he gets back to Lerris and finishes that
        Message 3 of 28 , Aug 3, 2005
          Saje, struggle your way through Towers of the Sunset and then keep
          reading... in a later book (the 5th, I think), he gets back to Lerris
          and finishes that story... but it makes more sense if ya read them in order.

          Saje wrote:

          > On Modesitt...I really enjoyed the very first book. It could have
          > gone in my top 10 easily. But I've ended up dropping every single
          > piece from the rest of the series barely a chapter or two into them.
          >
          > Political is fine. I'm a huge Dune fan...but I expected something
          > else after the first one and didn't get it.
          >
          >
          > Saje Williams
          > Author of the Infinity: Earth Saga
          > Book I "Loki's Sin" available now
          > http://www.wingsepress.com OR
          > http://www.sajewilliams.com
          > ----- Original Message -----
          > From: David Fernau
          > To: fantasyfictiondungeon@yahoogroups.com
          > Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 3:45 PM
          > Subject: Re: [Fantasy Fiction Dungeon] Discussion
          >
          >
          > I am currently on my second run-through of Modesitt's Recluse series,
          > reading The Order War right now. I am holding off on Wellspring of
          > Chaos
          > till Ordermaster is out in paperback or I end up with $25+ to spare for
          > the hardcover version.
          >
          > Political, yes, but he still gets into the characters' heads to a
          > certain degree... one thing I like about him is that he shows both
          > sides
          > sympathetically, which gives the reader a much broader picture of the
          > world of Recluse.
          >
          > If you want fantasy that makes you think, I heartily recommend it.
          > About
          > the only one I don't care for is Towers of the Sunset, but since it
          > tells an integral part of the story, I still recommend reading it.
          >
          > Matt wrote:
          >
          > > Another honorable mention would be L.E. Modesitt, Jr.'s Recluce
          > > books. I'm reading Wellspring of Chaos right now, which gets back
          > > more to a character driven aspect than the last few books, which
          > > were political in nature and kind of dry. His whole Chaos/Order
          > > mythos could be an encylopedia by itself. I'm surprised someone
          > > hasn't written one, much like the Guide to Middle Earth, Guide to
          > > the Wheel of time, Guide to the Land, Guide to Narnia, etc.
          >
          >
          >
          > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
          > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
          >
          > a.. Visit your group "fantasyfictiondungeon" on the web.
          >
          > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
          > fantasyfictiondungeon-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          >
          > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
          > Service.
          >
          >
          > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
          >
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
          > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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          >
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          >
        • Jeff C.
          ... I just picked up the first two of Douglas Gates of Troy series (think that is it). ... Great stuff, that is very underread here in the states. ... I will
          Message 4 of 28 , Aug 3, 2005
            --- Matt <gauvaine@...> wrote:

            >
            > Another current would be Elizabeth Haydon, i suppose
            > and Sara
            > Douglas.


            I just picked up the first two of Douglas' Gates of
            Troy series (think that is it).


            > Sean McMullen,

            Great stuff, that is very underread here in the
            states.


            > I highly recommend Summerland by Michael Chabon.
            > Excellent book.

            I will second that recommendation.

            > Hmmm. For a good scifi jaunt, read David Brin's Kiln
            > People book.
            >

            That is another good one. Brin and Greg Bear are two
            of my favorite authors.



            ____________________________________________________
            Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
            http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
          • karl barnes
            Love Hobbs and yes, I have read Black Jewels trilogy though I don t think that it is the best fantasy series in ages. It ll definitely do as a series that
            Message 5 of 28 , Aug 3, 2005
              Love Hobbs and yes, I have read "Black Jewels" trilogy though I don't think that it is the best fantasy series in ages. It'll definitely do as a series that I'll highly recommend.

              Saje <soulsaje@...> wrote:Robin Hobb's good, come to think of it.

              Have you tried Anne Bishop? Has anyone here tried the "Black Jewels?"

              Truly the best fantasy series in ages. Bar none.


              Saje Williams
              Author of the Infinity: Earth Saga
              Book I "Loki's Sin" available now
              http://www.wingsepress.com OR
              http://www.sajewilliams.com
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Matt
              To: fantasyfictiondungeon@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 3:39 PM
              Subject: Re: [Fantasy Fiction Dungeon] Discussion


              I get bogged down sometimes, too, always searching for something
              fresh to digest. Everyone left Robin Hobb off their list and J.V.
              Jones, who are about 10 years into their respective writing careers.
              Nothing really new from either of those lately. I thought the
              Farseer books were really well done and her writing ranks up there
              with Tad Williams as far as it's freshness and lyrical ease.

              Another current would be Elizabeth Haydon, i suppose and Sara
              Douglas.

              I always read David Gemmell. There's nothing like a quick kick to
              your face to get you energized. That's how his books are. Fast,
              furious, no dilly dallying. He has mastered the art of the anti-hero
              and the epic hero as well. That's hard to do.

              I do like Dave Duncan's Kings Blades books. I will always love his
              Magic Casement and A Man of His Word series. One of the best, fun,
              exciting series i've read in a long time. I think they're pretty
              much out of print now, but worth reading if you can find them.
              They're fun. Nothing serious. Just fun. And the magic system he came
              up with was ingenious, in my opinion. It was so simple but sensible
              that I wish everyone can be that in their writing. His Swordsman
              Trilogy was also good. One of my favorites until i read the Magic
              Casement stuff.

              Sean McMullen, for the uninitiated, writes some very time spanning,
              epic science fiction from the land down under. He's published here
              now and has started a very good fantasy series. His sci fiction is
              grandiose but well honed. Souls in the Great Machine is his first, i
              think. Very readable and ooh, ahhh kind of stuff.

              As for Anderson, I think his Seven Suns series is very good which
              i'm reading now. It's space opera so not serious. Haven't read any
              of the Star Wars stuff.

              Another honorable mention would be L.E. Modesitt, Jr.'s Recluce
              books. I'm reading Wellspring of Chaos right now, which gets back
              more to a character driven aspect than the last few books, which
              were political in nature and kind of dry. His whole Chaos/Order
              mythos could be an encylopedia by itself. I'm surprised someone
              hasn't written one, much like the Guide to Middle Earth, Guide to
              the Wheel of time, Guide to the Land, Guide to Narnia, etc.

              I am reading some of Mercedes Lackey's stuff, notably Joust. I read
              her first Bardic Voices book, which i loved right up to the point in
              which in degenerated into cliche driven romantic muck at the end
              that didn't mesh with what she had written the last 200 pages. I was
              disappointed. I'm reading It Takes A Thief and also have Exiles
              Honor to read. She borders on brilliant, but has flashes of
              jingoistic juvenilia on the tip of her fingers sometimes, too.

              I highly recommend Summerland by Michael Chabon. Excellent book.
              That should have been on my list, too. Anyone that can switch genres
              from Pulitzer, National Book Award type stuff like Kavalier and Clay
              was to a magical kids book about baseball and "pixies" has to be one
              hell of a writer.

              I always loved Thieves World, Asprin's Myth books, Piers Anthony
              Xanth books, up to Man from Mundania, i think. And Terry Pratchett
              is starting to grow on me and i'm rereading Douglas Adams' stuff,
              too. I can't wait until Hitchhiker's Guide comes out on DVD next
              month. Some people hated it, but i loved the movie. They captured
              the spirit of the books, which is all that i could have hoped for.

              Hmmm. For a good scifi jaunt, read David Brin's Kiln People book.


              --- In fantasyfictiondungeon@yahoogroups.com, "Saje" <soulsaje@c...>
              wrote:
              > I have to admit I've gotten a little bored with the epic fantasy
              stuff. I really enjoyed both Jordan and Martin...for a time. But
              when each book of Jordan's started ending without any sort of real
              resolution to that novel's storylines, I got just a little fed up.
              >
              > I'll probably catch up with Martin when he's finished. He's the
              kind of writer I'd just prefer to wait to read. I really enjoyed
              the first novel.
              >
              > I didn't get into Goodkind. I can't say why, exactly. It's been
              a while since I read the first book, but I didn't feel caught on
              fire by what he's doing.
              >
              > Frankly, I think Anne Bishop's Black Jewels series blows
              everything all three have written right out of the water. Something
              OTHER than epic fantasy really struck me where I live. Put it to
              you this way--I have never read a fantasy of any kind that you can
              compare it to. It's original.
              >
              > Kinda like mine own, come to think of it. One question I cannot
              answer is "who would you compare your work to?"
              > I can't think of single good example, though I do play with
              concepts that should be familiar to everyone. But my voice, and the
              total picture, is like nothing else you've ever read.
              >
              > I'd LOVE to be the next big thing...but I think it's more likely
              that I'll be the next next big thing, if it happens at all.
              >
              > Stackpole is a possibility. I'm not sure about McMullen...don't
              recognize the name right off. I've never been that big a fan of
              Anderson. Even his Star Wars books never had quite the kick to me
              as Zahn, Stackpole, or even Aaron Allston.
              >
              > Maybe I'm just burned out on the Epic stuff. I cut my teeth on
              LOTR and then Weiss and Hickman's Dragonlance, Guardians of the
              Flame (Joel Rosenberg), Feist's Rift War series, and the Elenium and
              Belgariad by Eddings. And then you've got Lackey's stuff, which
              varies a bit in quality, in my opinion. My favorite of the Valdemar
              books will always be her "Queen's Own" trilogy, personally.
              >
              > But I always also really liked Glen Cook's Black Company and
              Garret P.I. books, , and Jennifer Robeson's Tiger and Del series.
              Not epic fantasy, but something of their own.
              >
              > I put both Gemmel's works and Elizabeth Moon's Paksennarion books
              in the "heroic" category, following and very much improving on the
              traditions of Robert E. Howard.
              >
              > Hell, and then you got Donaldson's "anti-heroic" Chronicles of
              Thomas Covenant.
              >
              > All of these voices have brought something unique to the fantasy
              field.
              >
              > But, I reiterate, I'd pretty much burned out on the epic stuff.
              >
              >
              > Saje Williams
              > Author of the Infinity: Earth Saga
              > Book I "Loki's Sin" available now
              > http://www.wingsepress.com OR
              > http://www.sajewilliams.com
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: Matt
              > To: fantasyfictiondungeon@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2005 9:10 AM
              > Subject: [Fantasy Fiction Dungeon] Discussion
              >
              >
              > Okay, i'm going to throw a hand grenade and see what comes to
              the
              > surface.
              >
              > What are the fundamental differences between Robert Jordan,
              George
              > Martin, and Terry Goodkind?
              >
              > They all write long, unending epic novels with tons of world
              > building, a cast of thousands, and meandering plots that are
              more
              > convoluted than a Gordian knot. Why do we keep buying these
              things?
              > And is there some formula inherent in their makeup that they
              must
              > follow?
              >
              > I'm just curious. I stop reading Jordan at Path of Daggers,
              which
              > i'm halfway through. Martin, i got tired of waiting for A Feast
              of
              > Crows to come forth after waiting 5 years after Storm of Swords
              was
              > published. And Terry Goodkind cranks his out every year, like
              > clockwork. Or every 14 to 16 months, depending.
              >
              > Is it time for a new torch to be passed to someone else, say
              Michael
              > Stackpole, Sean McMullen, Kevin Anderson, to name a few?
              >
              > I only say this because it's cyclic. When i was in highschool,
              Terry
              > Brooks, David Eddings, Tracy Hickman and Margaret Weis were the
              > novelists of the moment.
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > -------------------------------------------------------------------
              -----------
              > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
              >
              > a.. Visit your group "fantasyfictiondungeon" on the web.
              >
              > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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              >
              > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms
              of Service.
              >
              >
              > -------------------------------------------------------------------
              -----------
              >
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




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            • Saje
              I got too much to read already. I can t struggle through five books to get to the story I started with...LOL I m patient, but not THAT patient. Saje Williams
              Message 6 of 28 , Aug 3, 2005
                I got too much to read already. I can't struggle through five books to get to the story I started with...LOL

                I'm patient, but not THAT patient.


                Saje Williams
                Author of the Infinity: Earth Saga
                Book I "Loki's Sin" available now
                http://www.wingsepress.com OR
                http://www.sajewilliams.com
                ----- Original Message -----
                From: David Fernau
                To: fantasyfictiondungeon@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 4:07 PM
                Subject: Re: [Fantasy Fiction Dungeon] Discussion


                Saje, struggle your way through Towers of the Sunset and then keep
                reading... in a later book (the 5th, I think), he gets back to Lerris
                and finishes that story... but it makes more sense if ya read them in order.

                Saje wrote:

                > On Modesitt...I really enjoyed the very first book. It could have
                > gone in my top 10 easily. But I've ended up dropping every single
                > piece from the rest of the series barely a chapter or two into them.
                >
                > Political is fine. I'm a huge Dune fan...but I expected something
                > else after the first one and didn't get it.
                >
                >
                > Saje Williams
                > Author of the Infinity: Earth Saga
                > Book I "Loki's Sin" available now
                > http://www.wingsepress.com OR
                > http://www.sajewilliams.com
                > ----- Original Message -----
                > From: David Fernau
                > To: fantasyfictiondungeon@yahoogroups.com
                > Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 3:45 PM
                > Subject: Re: [Fantasy Fiction Dungeon] Discussion
                >
                >
                > I am currently on my second run-through of Modesitt's Recluse series,
                > reading The Order War right now. I am holding off on Wellspring of
                > Chaos
                > till Ordermaster is out in paperback or I end up with $25+ to spare for
                > the hardcover version.
                >
                > Political, yes, but he still gets into the characters' heads to a
                > certain degree... one thing I like about him is that he shows both
                > sides
                > sympathetically, which gives the reader a much broader picture of the
                > world of Recluse.
                >
                > If you want fantasy that makes you think, I heartily recommend it.
                > About
                > the only one I don't care for is Towers of the Sunset, but since it
                > tells an integral part of the story, I still recommend reading it.
                >
                > Matt wrote:
                >
                > > Another honorable mention would be L.E. Modesitt, Jr.'s Recluce
                > > books. I'm reading Wellspring of Chaos right now, which gets back
                > > more to a character driven aspect than the last few books, which
                > > were political in nature and kind of dry. His whole Chaos/Order
                > > mythos could be an encylopedia by itself. I'm surprised someone
                > > hasn't written one, much like the Guide to Middle Earth, Guide to
                > > the Wheel of time, Guide to the Land, Guide to Narnia, etc.
                >
                >
                >
                > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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                >
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                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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              • Saje
                Tastes differ, that s for sure. I ve already stated my preference for originality. Bishop s series can literally be compared to nothing else I ve ever
                Message 7 of 28 , Aug 3, 2005
                  Tastes differ, that's for sure.

                  I've already stated my preference for originality. Bishop's series can literally be compared to nothing else I've ever read...that recommends it very highly in my book.

                  Besides...there's just something about a series where the heroes are scarier than the villains. <g>

                  Saje Williams
                  Author of the Infinity: Earth Saga
                  Book I "Loki's Sin" available now
                  http://www.wingsepress.com OR
                  http://www.sajewilliams.com
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: karl barnes
                  To: fantasyfictiondungeon@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 5:32 PM
                  Subject: Re: [Fantasy Fiction Dungeon] Discussion


                  Love Hobbs and yes, I have read "Black Jewels" trilogy though I don't think that it is the best fantasy series in ages. It'll definitely do as a series that I'll highly recommend.

                  Saje <soulsaje@...> wrote:Robin Hobb's good, come to think of it.

                  Have you tried Anne Bishop? Has anyone here tried the "Black Jewels?"

                  Truly the best fantasy series in ages. Bar none.


                  Saje Williams
                  Author of the Infinity: Earth Saga
                  Book I "Loki's Sin" available now
                  http://www.wingsepress.com OR
                  http://www.sajewilliams.com
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: Matt
                  To: fantasyfictiondungeon@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 3:39 PM
                  Subject: Re: [Fantasy Fiction Dungeon] Discussion


                  I get bogged down sometimes, too, always searching for something
                  fresh to digest. Everyone left Robin Hobb off their list and J.V.
                  Jones, who are about 10 years into their respective writing careers.
                  Nothing really new from either of those lately. I thought the
                  Farseer books were really well done and her writing ranks up there
                  with Tad Williams as far as it's freshness and lyrical ease.

                  Another current would be Elizabeth Haydon, i suppose and Sara
                  Douglas.

                  I always read David Gemmell. There's nothing like a quick kick to
                  your face to get you energized. That's how his books are. Fast,
                  furious, no dilly dallying. He has mastered the art of the anti-hero
                  and the epic hero as well. That's hard to do.

                  I do like Dave Duncan's Kings Blades books. I will always love his
                  Magic Casement and A Man of His Word series. One of the best, fun,
                  exciting series i've read in a long time. I think they're pretty
                  much out of print now, but worth reading if you can find them.
                  They're fun. Nothing serious. Just fun. And the magic system he came
                  up with was ingenious, in my opinion. It was so simple but sensible
                  that I wish everyone can be that in their writing. His Swordsman
                  Trilogy was also good. One of my favorites until i read the Magic
                  Casement stuff.

                  Sean McMullen, for the uninitiated, writes some very time spanning,
                  epic science fiction from the land down under. He's published here
                  now and has started a very good fantasy series. His sci fiction is
                  grandiose but well honed. Souls in the Great Machine is his first, i
                  think. Very readable and ooh, ahhh kind of stuff.

                  As for Anderson, I think his Seven Suns series is very good which
                  i'm reading now. It's space opera so not serious. Haven't read any
                  of the Star Wars stuff.

                  Another honorable mention would be L.E. Modesitt, Jr.'s Recluce
                  books. I'm reading Wellspring of Chaos right now, which gets back
                  more to a character driven aspect than the last few books, which
                  were political in nature and kind of dry. His whole Chaos/Order
                  mythos could be an encylopedia by itself. I'm surprised someone
                  hasn't written one, much like the Guide to Middle Earth, Guide to
                  the Wheel of time, Guide to the Land, Guide to Narnia, etc.

                  I am reading some of Mercedes Lackey's stuff, notably Joust. I read
                  her first Bardic Voices book, which i loved right up to the point in
                  which in degenerated into cliche driven romantic muck at the end
                  that didn't mesh with what she had written the last 200 pages. I was
                  disappointed. I'm reading It Takes A Thief and also have Exiles
                  Honor to read. She borders on brilliant, but has flashes of
                  jingoistic juvenilia on the tip of her fingers sometimes, too.

                  I highly recommend Summerland by Michael Chabon. Excellent book.
                  That should have been on my list, too. Anyone that can switch genres
                  from Pulitzer, National Book Award type stuff like Kavalier and Clay
                  was to a magical kids book about baseball and "pixies" has to be one
                  hell of a writer.

                  I always loved Thieves World, Asprin's Myth books, Piers Anthony
                  Xanth books, up to Man from Mundania, i think. And Terry Pratchett
                  is starting to grow on me and i'm rereading Douglas Adams' stuff,
                  too. I can't wait until Hitchhiker's Guide comes out on DVD next
                  month. Some people hated it, but i loved the movie. They captured
                  the spirit of the books, which is all that i could have hoped for.

                  Hmmm. For a good scifi jaunt, read David Brin's Kiln People book.


                  --- In fantasyfictiondungeon@yahoogroups.com, "Saje" <soulsaje@c...>
                  wrote:
                  > I have to admit I've gotten a little bored with the epic fantasy
                  stuff. I really enjoyed both Jordan and Martin...for a time. But
                  when each book of Jordan's started ending without any sort of real
                  resolution to that novel's storylines, I got just a little fed up.
                  >
                  > I'll probably catch up with Martin when he's finished. He's the
                  kind of writer I'd just prefer to wait to read. I really enjoyed
                  the first novel.
                  >
                  > I didn't get into Goodkind. I can't say why, exactly. It's been
                  a while since I read the first book, but I didn't feel caught on
                  fire by what he's doing.
                  >
                  > Frankly, I think Anne Bishop's Black Jewels series blows
                  everything all three have written right out of the water. Something
                  OTHER than epic fantasy really struck me where I live. Put it to
                  you this way--I have never read a fantasy of any kind that you can
                  compare it to. It's original.
                  >
                  > Kinda like mine own, come to think of it. One question I cannot
                  answer is "who would you compare your work to?"
                  > I can't think of single good example, though I do play with
                  concepts that should be familiar to everyone. But my voice, and the
                  total picture, is like nothing else you've ever read.
                  >
                  > I'd LOVE to be the next big thing...but I think it's more likely
                  that I'll be the next next big thing, if it happens at all.
                  >
                  > Stackpole is a possibility. I'm not sure about McMullen...don't
                  recognize the name right off. I've never been that big a fan of
                  Anderson. Even his Star Wars books never had quite the kick to me
                  as Zahn, Stackpole, or even Aaron Allston.
                  >
                  > Maybe I'm just burned out on the Epic stuff. I cut my teeth on
                  LOTR and then Weiss and Hickman's Dragonlance, Guardians of the
                  Flame (Joel Rosenberg), Feist's Rift War series, and the Elenium and
                  Belgariad by Eddings. And then you've got Lackey's stuff, which
                  varies a bit in quality, in my opinion. My favorite of the Valdemar
                  books will always be her "Queen's Own" trilogy, personally.
                  >
                  > But I always also really liked Glen Cook's Black Company and
                  Garret P.I. books, , and Jennifer Robeson's Tiger and Del series.
                  Not epic fantasy, but something of their own.
                  >
                  > I put both Gemmel's works and Elizabeth Moon's Paksennarion books
                  in the "heroic" category, following and very much improving on the
                  traditions of Robert E. Howard.
                  >
                  > Hell, and then you got Donaldson's "anti-heroic" Chronicles of
                  Thomas Covenant.
                  >
                  > All of these voices have brought something unique to the fantasy
                  field.
                  >
                  > But, I reiterate, I'd pretty much burned out on the epic stuff.
                  >
                  >
                  > Saje Williams
                  > Author of the Infinity: Earth Saga
                  > Book I "Loki's Sin" available now
                  > http://www.wingsepress.com OR
                  > http://www.sajewilliams.com
                  > ----- Original Message -----
                  > From: Matt
                  > To: fantasyfictiondungeon@yahoogroups.com
                  > Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2005 9:10 AM
                  > Subject: [Fantasy Fiction Dungeon] Discussion
                  >
                  >
                  > Okay, i'm going to throw a hand grenade and see what comes to
                  the
                  > surface.
                  >
                  > What are the fundamental differences between Robert Jordan,
                  George
                  > Martin, and Terry Goodkind?
                  >
                  > They all write long, unending epic novels with tons of world
                  > building, a cast of thousands, and meandering plots that are
                  more
                  > convoluted than a Gordian knot. Why do we keep buying these
                  things?
                  > And is there some formula inherent in their makeup that they
                  must
                  > follow?
                  >
                  > I'm just curious. I stop reading Jordan at Path of Daggers,
                  which
                  > i'm halfway through. Martin, i got tired of waiting for A Feast
                  of
                  > Crows to come forth after waiting 5 years after Storm of Swords
                  was
                  > published. And Terry Goodkind cranks his out every year, like
                  > clockwork. Or every 14 to 16 months, depending.
                  >
                  > Is it time for a new torch to be passed to someone else, say
                  Michael
                  > Stackpole, Sean McMullen, Kevin Anderson, to name a few?
                  >
                  > I only say this because it's cyclic. When i was in highschool,
                  Terry
                  > Brooks, David Eddings, Tracy Hickman and Margaret Weis were the
                  > novelists of the moment.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > -------------------------------------------------------------------
                  -----------
                  > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                  >
                  > a.. Visit your group "fantasyfictiondungeon" on the web.
                  >
                  > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                  > fantasyfictiondungeon-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  >
                  > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms
                  of Service.
                  >
                  >
                  > -------------------------------------------------------------------
                  -----------
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                  ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • karl barnes
                  Carol Berg s Transformation and Restoration are two pretty unique novels. If you haven t tried them, I suggest that you do. Saje
                  Message 8 of 28 , Aug 3, 2005
                    Carol Berg's "Transformation" and "Restoration" are two pretty unique novels. If you haven't tried them, I suggest that you do.

                    Saje <soulsaje@...> wrote:Tastes differ, that's for sure.

                    I've already stated my preference for originality. Bishop's series can literally be compared to nothing else I've ever read...that recommends it very highly in my book.

                    Besides...there's just something about a series where the heroes are scarier than the villains. <g>

                    Saje Williams
                    Author of the Infinity: Earth Saga
                    Book I "Loki's Sin" available now
                    http://www.wingsepress.com OR
                    http://www.sajewilliams.com
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: karl barnes
                    To: fantasyfictiondungeon@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 5:32 PM
                    Subject: Re: [Fantasy Fiction Dungeon] Discussion


                    Love Hobbs and yes, I have read "Black Jewels" trilogy though I don't think that it is the best fantasy series in ages. It'll definitely do as a series that I'll highly recommend.

                    Saje <soulsaje@...> wrote:Robin Hobb's good, come to think of it.

                    Have you tried Anne Bishop? Has anyone here tried the "Black Jewels?"

                    Truly the best fantasy series in ages. Bar none.


                    Saje Williams
                    Author of the Infinity: Earth Saga
                    Book I "Loki's Sin" available now
                    http://www.wingsepress.com OR
                    http://www.sajewilliams.com
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: Matt
                    To: fantasyfictiondungeon@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 3:39 PM
                    Subject: Re: [Fantasy Fiction Dungeon] Discussion


                    I get bogged down sometimes, too, always searching for something
                    fresh to digest. Everyone left Robin Hobb off their list and J.V.
                    Jones, who are about 10 years into their respective writing careers.
                    Nothing really new from either of those lately. I thought the
                    Farseer books were really well done and her writing ranks up there
                    with Tad Williams as far as it's freshness and lyrical ease.

                    Another current would be Elizabeth Haydon, i suppose and Sara
                    Douglas.

                    I always read David Gemmell. There's nothing like a quick kick to
                    your face to get you energized. That's how his books are. Fast,
                    furious, no dilly dallying. He has mastered the art of the anti-hero
                    and the epic hero as well. That's hard to do.

                    I do like Dave Duncan's Kings Blades books. I will always love his
                    Magic Casement and A Man of His Word series. One of the best, fun,
                    exciting series i've read in a long time. I think they're pretty
                    much out of print now, but worth reading if you can find them.
                    They're fun. Nothing serious. Just fun. And the magic system he came
                    up with was ingenious, in my opinion. It was so simple but sensible
                    that I wish everyone can be that in their writing. His Swordsman
                    Trilogy was also good. One of my favorites until i read the Magic
                    Casement stuff.

                    Sean McMullen, for the uninitiated, writes some very time spanning,
                    epic science fiction from the land down under. He's published here
                    now and has started a very good fantasy series. His sci fiction is
                    grandiose but well honed. Souls in the Great Machine is his first, i
                    think. Very readable and ooh, ahhh kind of stuff.

                    As for Anderson, I think his Seven Suns series is very good which
                    i'm reading now. It's space opera so not serious. Haven't read any
                    of the Star Wars stuff.

                    Another honorable mention would be L.E. Modesitt, Jr.'s Recluce
                    books. I'm reading Wellspring of Chaos right now, which gets back
                    more to a character driven aspect than the last few books, which
                    were political in nature and kind of dry. His whole Chaos/Order
                    mythos could be an encylopedia by itself. I'm surprised someone
                    hasn't written one, much like the Guide to Middle Earth, Guide to
                    the Wheel of time, Guide to the Land, Guide to Narnia, etc.

                    I am reading some of Mercedes Lackey's stuff, notably Joust. I read
                    her first Bardic Voices book, which i loved right up to the point in
                    which in degenerated into cliche driven romantic muck at the end
                    that didn't mesh with what she had written the last 200 pages. I was
                    disappointed. I'm reading It Takes A Thief and also have Exiles
                    Honor to read. She borders on brilliant, but has flashes of
                    jingoistic juvenilia on the tip of her fingers sometimes, too.

                    I highly recommend Summerland by Michael Chabon. Excellent book.
                    That should have been on my list, too. Anyone that can switch genres
                    from Pulitzer, National Book Award type stuff like Kavalier and Clay
                    was to a magical kids book about baseball and "pixies" has to be one
                    hell of a writer.

                    I always loved Thieves World, Asprin's Myth books, Piers Anthony
                    Xanth books, up to Man from Mundania, i think. And Terry Pratchett
                    is starting to grow on me and i'm rereading Douglas Adams' stuff,
                    too. I can't wait until Hitchhiker's Guide comes out on DVD next
                    month. Some people hated it, but i loved the movie. They captured
                    the spirit of the books, which is all that i could have hoped for.

                    Hmmm. For a good scifi jaunt, read David Brin's Kiln People book.


                    --- In fantasyfictiondungeon@yahoogroups.com, "Saje" <soulsaje@c...>
                    wrote:
                    > I have to admit I've gotten a little bored with the epic fantasy
                    stuff. I really enjoyed both Jordan and Martin...for a time. But
                    when each book of Jordan's started ending without any sort of real
                    resolution to that novel's storylines, I got just a little fed up.
                    >
                    > I'll probably catch up with Martin when he's finished. He's the
                    kind of writer I'd just prefer to wait to read. I really enjoyed
                    the first novel.
                    >
                    > I didn't get into Goodkind. I can't say why, exactly. It's been
                    a while since I read the first book, but I didn't feel caught on
                    fire by what he's doing.
                    >
                    > Frankly, I think Anne Bishop's Black Jewels series blows
                    everything all three have written right out of the water. Something
                    OTHER than epic fantasy really struck me where I live. Put it to
                    you this way--I have never read a fantasy of any kind that you can
                    compare it to. It's original.
                    >
                    > Kinda like mine own, come to think of it. One question I cannot
                    answer is "who would you compare your work to?"
                    > I can't think of single good example, though I do play with
                    concepts that should be familiar to everyone. But my voice, and the
                    total picture, is like nothing else you've ever read.
                    >
                    > I'd LOVE to be the next big thing...but I think it's more likely
                    that I'll be the next next big thing, if it happens at all.
                    >
                    > Stackpole is a possibility. I'm not sure about McMullen...don't
                    recognize the name right off. I've never been that big a fan of
                    Anderson. Even his Star Wars books never had quite the kick to me
                    as Zahn, Stackpole, or even Aaron Allston.
                    >
                    > Maybe I'm just burned out on the Epic stuff. I cut my teeth on
                    LOTR and then Weiss and Hickman's Dragonlance, Guardians of the
                    Flame (Joel Rosenberg), Feist's Rift War series, and the Elenium and
                    Belgariad by Eddings. And then you've got Lackey's stuff, which
                    varies a bit in quality, in my opinion. My favorite of the Valdemar
                    books will always be her "Queen's Own" trilogy, personally.
                    >
                    > But I always also really liked Glen Cook's Black Company and
                    Garret P.I. books, , and Jennifer Robeson's Tiger and Del series.
                    Not epic fantasy, but something of their own.
                    >
                    > I put both Gemmel's works and Elizabeth Moon's Paksennarion books
                    in the "heroic" category, following and very much improving on the
                    traditions of Robert E. Howard.
                    >
                    > Hell, and then you got Donaldson's "anti-heroic" Chronicles of
                    Thomas Covenant.
                    >
                    > All of these voices have brought something unique to the fantasy
                    field.
                    >
                    > But, I reiterate, I'd pretty much burned out on the epic stuff.
                    >
                    >
                    > Saje Williams
                    > Author of the Infinity: Earth Saga
                    > Book I "Loki's Sin" available now
                    > http://www.wingsepress.com OR
                    > http://www.sajewilliams.com
                    > ----- Original Message -----
                    > From: Matt
                    > To: fantasyfictiondungeon@yahoogroups.com
                    > Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2005 9:10 AM
                    > Subject: [Fantasy Fiction Dungeon] Discussion
                    >
                    >
                    > Okay, i'm going to throw a hand grenade and see what comes to
                    the
                    > surface.
                    >
                    > What are the fundamental differences between Robert Jordan,
                    George
                    > Martin, and Terry Goodkind?
                    >
                    > They all write long, unending epic novels with tons of world
                    > building, a cast of thousands, and meandering plots that are
                    more
                    > convoluted than a Gordian knot. Why do we keep buying these
                    things?
                    > And is there some formula inherent in their makeup that they
                    must
                    > follow?
                    >
                    > I'm just curious. I stop reading Jordan at Path of Daggers,
                    which
                    > i'm halfway through. Martin, i got tired of waiting for A Feast
                    of
                    > Crows to come forth after waiting 5 years after Storm of Swords
                    was
                    > published. And Terry Goodkind cranks his out every year, like
                    > clockwork. Or every 14 to 16 months, depending.
                    >
                    > Is it time for a new torch to be passed to someone else, say
                    Michael
                    > Stackpole, Sean McMullen, Kevin Anderson, to name a few?
                    >
                    > I only say this because it's cyclic. When i was in highschool,
                    Terry
                    > Brooks, David Eddings, Tracy Hickman and Margaret Weis were the
                    > novelists of the moment.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > -------------------------------------------------------------------
                    -----------
                    > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                    >
                    > a.. Visit your group "fantasyfictiondungeon" on the web.
                    >
                    > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                    > fantasyfictiondungeon-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                    >
                    > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms
                    of Service.
                    >
                    >
                    > -------------------------------------------------------------------
                    -----------
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




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                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Saje
                    I ll keep the name in mind. Can you tell me a little about it. I have to say that if it s too surreal, oh...what s that brit s name...China Melville or
                    Message 9 of 28 , Aug 3, 2005
                      I'll keep the name in mind. Can you tell me a little about it.

                      I have to say that if it's too surreal, oh...what's that brit's name...China Melville or something like that?

                      Can't stand it. Either boring or weird. Disjointed in an odd way. I can handle more surreal sci-fi than fantasy, oddly enough.

                      If that makes any sense at all...
                      Saje Williams
                      Author of the Infinity: Earth Saga
                      Book I "Loki's Sin" available now
                      http://www.wingsepress.com OR
                      http://www.sajewilliams.com
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: karl barnes
                      To: fantasyfictiondungeon@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 8:32 PM
                      Subject: Re: [Fantasy Fiction Dungeon] Discussion


                      Carol Berg's "Transformation" and "Restoration" are two pretty unique novels. If you haven't tried them, I suggest that you do.

                      Saje <soulsaje@...> wrote:Tastes differ, that's for sure.

                      I've already stated my preference for originality. Bishop's series can literally be compared to nothing else I've ever read...that recommends it very highly in my book.

                      Besides...there's just something about a series where the heroes are scarier than the villains. <g>

                      Saje Williams
                      Author of the Infinity: Earth Saga
                      Book I "Loki's Sin" available now
                      http://www.wingsepress.com OR
                      http://www.sajewilliams.com
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: karl barnes
                      To: fantasyfictiondungeon@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 5:32 PM
                      Subject: Re: [Fantasy Fiction Dungeon] Discussion


                      Love Hobbs and yes, I have read "Black Jewels" trilogy though I don't think that it is the best fantasy series in ages. It'll definitely do as a series that I'll highly recommend.

                      Saje <soulsaje@...> wrote:Robin Hobb's good, come to think of it.

                      Have you tried Anne Bishop? Has anyone here tried the "Black Jewels?"

                      Truly the best fantasy series in ages. Bar none.


                      Saje Williams
                      Author of the Infinity: Earth Saga
                      Book I "Loki's Sin" available now
                      http://www.wingsepress.com OR
                      http://www.sajewilliams.com
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: Matt
                      To: fantasyfictiondungeon@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 3:39 PM
                      Subject: Re: [Fantasy Fiction Dungeon] Discussion


                      I get bogged down sometimes, too, always searching for something
                      fresh to digest. Everyone left Robin Hobb off their list and J.V.
                      Jones, who are about 10 years into their respective writing careers.
                      Nothing really new from either of those lately. I thought the
                      Farseer books were really well done and her writing ranks up there
                      with Tad Williams as far as it's freshness and lyrical ease.

                      Another current would be Elizabeth Haydon, i suppose and Sara
                      Douglas.

                      I always read David Gemmell. There's nothing like a quick kick to
                      your face to get you energized. That's how his books are. Fast,
                      furious, no dilly dallying. He has mastered the art of the anti-hero
                      and the epic hero as well. That's hard to do.

                      I do like Dave Duncan's Kings Blades books. I will always love his
                      Magic Casement and A Man of His Word series. One of the best, fun,
                      exciting series i've read in a long time. I think they're pretty
                      much out of print now, but worth reading if you can find them.
                      They're fun. Nothing serious. Just fun. And the magic system he came
                      up with was ingenious, in my opinion. It was so simple but sensible
                      that I wish everyone can be that in their writing. His Swordsman
                      Trilogy was also good. One of my favorites until i read the Magic
                      Casement stuff.

                      Sean McMullen, for the uninitiated, writes some very time spanning,
                      epic science fiction from the land down under. He's published here
                      now and has started a very good fantasy series. His sci fiction is
                      grandiose but well honed. Souls in the Great Machine is his first, i
                      think. Very readable and ooh, ahhh kind of stuff.

                      As for Anderson, I think his Seven Suns series is very good which
                      i'm reading now. It's space opera so not serious. Haven't read any
                      of the Star Wars stuff.

                      Another honorable mention would be L.E. Modesitt, Jr.'s Recluce
                      books. I'm reading Wellspring of Chaos right now, which gets back
                      more to a character driven aspect than the last few books, which
                      were political in nature and kind of dry. His whole Chaos/Order
                      mythos could be an encylopedia by itself. I'm surprised someone
                      hasn't written one, much like the Guide to Middle Earth, Guide to
                      the Wheel of time, Guide to the Land, Guide to Narnia, etc.

                      I am reading some of Mercedes Lackey's stuff, notably Joust. I read
                      her first Bardic Voices book, which i loved right up to the point in
                      which in degenerated into cliche driven romantic muck at the end
                      that didn't mesh with what she had written the last 200 pages. I was
                      disappointed. I'm reading It Takes A Thief and also have Exiles
                      Honor to read. She borders on brilliant, but has flashes of
                      jingoistic juvenilia on the tip of her fingers sometimes, too.

                      I highly recommend Summerland by Michael Chabon. Excellent book.
                      That should have been on my list, too. Anyone that can switch genres
                      from Pulitzer, National Book Award type stuff like Kavalier and Clay
                      was to a magical kids book about baseball and "pixies" has to be one
                      hell of a writer.

                      I always loved Thieves World, Asprin's Myth books, Piers Anthony
                      Xanth books, up to Man from Mundania, i think. And Terry Pratchett
                      is starting to grow on me and i'm rereading Douglas Adams' stuff,
                      too. I can't wait until Hitchhiker's Guide comes out on DVD next
                      month. Some people hated it, but i loved the movie. They captured
                      the spirit of the books, which is all that i could have hoped for.

                      Hmmm. For a good scifi jaunt, read David Brin's Kiln People book.


                      --- In fantasyfictiondungeon@yahoogroups.com, "Saje" <soulsaje@c...>
                      wrote:
                      > I have to admit I've gotten a little bored with the epic fantasy
                      stuff. I really enjoyed both Jordan and Martin...for a time. But
                      when each book of Jordan's started ending without any sort of real
                      resolution to that novel's storylines, I got just a little fed up.
                      >
                      > I'll probably catch up with Martin when he's finished. He's the
                      kind of writer I'd just prefer to wait to read. I really enjoyed
                      the first novel.
                      >
                      > I didn't get into Goodkind. I can't say why, exactly. It's been
                      a while since I read the first book, but I didn't feel caught on
                      fire by what he's doing.
                      >
                      > Frankly, I think Anne Bishop's Black Jewels series blows
                      everything all three have written right out of the water. Something
                      OTHER than epic fantasy really struck me where I live. Put it to
                      you this way--I have never read a fantasy of any kind that you can
                      compare it to. It's original.
                      >
                      > Kinda like mine own, come to think of it. One question I cannot
                      answer is "who would you compare your work to?"
                      > I can't think of single good example, though I do play with
                      concepts that should be familiar to everyone. But my voice, and the
                      total picture, is like nothing else you've ever read.
                      >
                      > I'd LOVE to be the next big thing...but I think it's more likely
                      that I'll be the next next big thing, if it happens at all.
                      >
                      > Stackpole is a possibility. I'm not sure about McMullen...don't
                      recognize the name right off. I've never been that big a fan of
                      Anderson. Even his Star Wars books never had quite the kick to me
                      as Zahn, Stackpole, or even Aaron Allston.
                      >
                      > Maybe I'm just burned out on the Epic stuff. I cut my teeth on
                      LOTR and then Weiss and Hickman's Dragonlance, Guardians of the
                      Flame (Joel Rosenberg), Feist's Rift War series, and the Elenium and
                      Belgariad by Eddings. And then you've got Lackey's stuff, which
                      varies a bit in quality, in my opinion. My favorite of the Valdemar
                      books will always be her "Queen's Own" trilogy, personally.
                      >
                      > But I always also really liked Glen Cook's Black Company and
                      Garret P.I. books, , and Jennifer Robeson's Tiger and Del series.
                      Not epic fantasy, but something of their own.
                      >
                      > I put both Gemmel's works and Elizabeth Moon's Paksennarion books
                      in the "heroic" category, following and very much improving on the
                      traditions of Robert E. Howard.
                      >
                      > Hell, and then you got Donaldson's "anti-heroic" Chronicles of
                      Thomas Covenant.
                      >
                      > All of these voices have brought something unique to the fantasy
                      field.
                      >
                      > But, I reiterate, I'd pretty much burned out on the epic stuff.
                      >
                      >
                      > Saje Williams
                      > Author of the Infinity: Earth Saga
                      > Book I "Loki's Sin" available now
                      > http://www.wingsepress.com OR
                      > http://www.sajewilliams.com
                      > ----- Original Message -----
                      > From: Matt
                      > To: fantasyfictiondungeon@yahoogroups.com
                      > Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2005 9:10 AM
                      > Subject: [Fantasy Fiction Dungeon] Discussion
                      >
                      >
                      > Okay, i'm going to throw a hand grenade and see what comes to
                      the
                      > surface.
                      >
                      > What are the fundamental differences between Robert Jordan,
                      George
                      > Martin, and Terry Goodkind?
                      >
                      > They all write long, unending epic novels with tons of world
                      > building, a cast of thousands, and meandering plots that are
                      more
                      > convoluted than a Gordian knot. Why do we keep buying these
                      things?
                      > And is there some formula inherent in their makeup that they
                      must
                      > follow?
                      >
                      > I'm just curious. I stop reading Jordan at Path of Daggers,
                      which
                      > i'm halfway through. Martin, i got tired of waiting for A Feast
                      of
                      > Crows to come forth after waiting 5 years after Storm of Swords
                      was
                      > published. And Terry Goodkind cranks his out every year, like
                      > clockwork. Or every 14 to 16 months, depending.
                      >
                      > Is it time for a new torch to be passed to someone else, say
                      Michael
                      > Stackpole, Sean McMullen, Kevin Anderson, to name a few?
                      >
                      > I only say this because it's cyclic. When i was in highschool,
                      Terry
                      > Brooks, David Eddings, Tracy Hickman and Margaret Weis were the
                      > novelists of the moment.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > -------------------------------------------------------------------
                      -----------
                      > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                      >
                      > a.. Visit your group "fantasyfictiondungeon" on the web.
                      >
                      > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                      > fantasyfictiondungeon-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                      >
                      > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms
                      of Service.
                      >
                      >
                      > -------------------------------------------------------------------
                      -----------
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




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                    • karl barnes
                      I ll give the back cover blurb for Transformation: Freedom is the ability to make a choice.... Seyonne was not always a slave. Once his people were the
                      Message 10 of 28 , Aug 4, 2005
                        I'll give the back cover blurb for "Transformation: Freedom is the ability to make a choice....

                        Seyonne was not always a slave. Once his people were the guardians of magic such as the land had never seen, protectors and defenders.But the Derzhi came and enslaved them. Now, years of degradation and misery have blurred Seyonne's memory and sapped his strength. To his people, he is already dead. And to him, death is all that is left-- until he finds hope in a most unlikely place...

                        Sold once again, Seyonne is bought by Alexander, the heir to the Derzhi Empire. His new master is cold and heedlessly cruel. But within Alexander, the seeds of greatness wait. All it would take is guidance from one such as Seyonne once was...

                        But time is short, for demons have also noticed Alexander--and what they cannot control, they will destroy...



                        But to be honest, what attracted me to her novels were the striking covers, but once I started reading. The story just pulled me into its world.

                        Saje <soulsaje@...> wrote:
                        I'll keep the name in mind. Can you tell me a little about it.

                        I have to say that if it's too surreal, oh...what's that brit's name...China Melville or something like that?

                        Can't stand it. Either boring or weird. Disjointed in an odd way. I can handle more surreal sci-fi than fantasy, oddly enough.

                        If that makes any sense at all...
                        Saje Williams
                        Author of the Infinity: Earth Saga
                        Book I "Loki's Sin" available now
                        http://www.wingsepress.com OR
                        http://www.sajewilliams.com
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: karl barnes
                        To: fantasyfictiondungeon@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 8:32 PM
                        Subject: Re: [Fantasy Fiction Dungeon] Discussion


                        Carol Berg's "Transformation" and "Restoration" are two pretty unique novels. If you haven't tried them, I suggest that you do.

                        Saje <soulsaje@...> wrote:Tastes differ, that's for sure.

                        I've already stated my preference for originality. Bishop's series can literally be compared to nothing else I've ever read...that recommends it very highly in my book.

                        Besides...there's just something about a series where the heroes are scarier than the villains. <g>

                        Saje Williams
                        Author of the Infinity: Earth Saga
                        Book I "Loki's Sin" available now
                        http://www.wingsepress.com OR
                        http://www.sajewilliams.com
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: karl barnes
                        To: fantasyfictiondungeon@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 5:32 PM
                        Subject: Re: [Fantasy Fiction Dungeon] Discussion


                        Love Hobbs and yes, I have read "Black Jewels" trilogy though I don't think that it is the best fantasy series in ages. It'll definitely do as a series that I'll highly recommend.

                        Saje <soulsaje@...> wrote:Robin Hobb's good, come to think of it.

                        Have you tried Anne Bishop? Has anyone here tried the "Black Jewels?"

                        Truly the best fantasy series in ages. Bar none.


                        Saje Williams
                        Author of the Infinity: Earth Saga
                        Book I "Loki's Sin" available now
                        http://www.wingsepress.com OR
                        http://www.sajewilliams.com
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: Matt
                        To: fantasyfictiondungeon@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 3:39 PM
                        Subject: Re: [Fantasy Fiction Dungeon] Discussion


                        I get bogged down sometimes, too, always searching for something
                        fresh to digest. Everyone left Robin Hobb off their list and J.V.
                        Jones, who are about 10 years into their respective writing careers.
                        Nothing really new from either of those lately. I thought the
                        Farseer books were really well done and her writing ranks up there
                        with Tad Williams as far as it's freshness and lyrical ease.

                        Another current would be Elizabeth Haydon, i suppose and Sara
                        Douglas.

                        I always read David Gemmell. There's nothing like a quick kick to
                        your face to get you energized. That's how his books are. Fast,
                        furious, no dilly dallying. He has mastered the art of the anti-hero
                        and the epic hero as well. That's hard to do.

                        I do like Dave Duncan's Kings Blades books. I will always love his
                        Magic Casement and A Man of His Word series. One of the best, fun,
                        exciting series i've read in a long time. I think they're pretty
                        much out of print now, but worth reading if you can find them.
                        They're fun. Nothing serious. Just fun. And the magic system he came
                        up with was ingenious, in my opinion. It was so simple but sensible
                        that I wish everyone can be that in their writing. His Swordsman
                        Trilogy was also good. One of my favorites until i read the Magic
                        Casement stuff.

                        Sean McMullen, for the uninitiated, writes some very time spanning,
                        epic science fiction from the land down under. He's published here
                        now and has started a very good fantasy series. His sci fiction is
                        grandiose but well honed. Souls in the Great Machine is his first, i
                        think. Very readable and ooh, ahhh kind of stuff.

                        As for Anderson, I think his Seven Suns series is very good which
                        i'm reading now. It's space opera so not serious. Haven't read any
                        of the Star Wars stuff.

                        Another honorable mention would be L.E. Modesitt, Jr.'s Recluce
                        books. I'm reading Wellspring of Chaos right now, which gets back
                        more to a character driven aspect than the last few books, which
                        were political in nature and kind of dry. His whole Chaos/Order
                        mythos could be an encylopedia by itself. I'm surprised someone
                        hasn't written one, much like the Guide to Middle Earth, Guide to
                        the Wheel of time, Guide to the Land, Guide to Narnia, etc.

                        I am reading some of Mercedes Lackey's stuff, notably Joust. I read
                        her first Bardic Voices book, which i loved right up to the point in
                        which in degenerated into cliche driven romantic muck at the end
                        that didn't mesh with what she had written the last 200 pages. I was
                        disappointed. I'm reading It Takes A Thief and also have Exiles
                        Honor to read. She borders on brilliant, but has flashes of
                        jingoistic juvenilia on the tip of her fingers sometimes, too.

                        I highly recommend Summerland by Michael Chabon. Excellent book.
                        That should have been on my list, too. Anyone that can switch genres
                        from Pulitzer, National Book Award type stuff like Kavalier and Clay
                        was to a magical kids book about baseball and "pixies" has to be one
                        hell of a writer.

                        I always loved Thieves World, Asprin's Myth books, Piers Anthony
                        Xanth books, up to Man from Mundania, i think. And Terry Pratchett
                        is starting to grow on me and i'm rereading Douglas Adams' stuff,
                        too. I can't wait until Hitchhiker's Guide comes out on DVD next
                        month. Some people hated it, but i loved the movie. They captured
                        the spirit of the books, which is all that i could have hoped for.

                        Hmmm. For a good scifi jaunt, read David Brin's Kiln People book.


                        --- In fantasyfictiondungeon@yahoogroups.com, "Saje" <soulsaje@c...>
                        wrote:
                        > I have to admit I've gotten a little bored with the epic fantasy
                        stuff. I really enjoyed both Jordan and Martin...for a time. But
                        when each book of Jordan's started ending without any sort of real
                        resolution to that novel's storylines, I got just a little fed up.
                        >
                        > I'll probably catch up with Martin when he's finished. He's the
                        kind of writer I'd just prefer to wait to read. I really enjoyed
                        the first novel.
                        >
                        > I didn't get into Goodkind. I can't say why, exactly. It's been
                        a while since I read the first book, but I didn't feel caught on
                        fire by what he's doing.
                        >
                        > Frankly, I think Anne Bishop's Black Jewels series blows
                        everything all three have written right out of the water. Something
                        OTHER than epic fantasy really struck me where I live. Put it to
                        you this way--I have never read a fantasy of any kind that you can
                        compare it to. It's original.
                        >
                        > Kinda like mine own, come to think of it. One question I cannot
                        answer is "who would you compare your work to?"
                        > I can't think of single good example, though I do play with
                        concepts that should be familiar to everyone. But my voice, and the
                        total picture, is like nothing else you've ever read.
                        >
                        > I'd LOVE to be the next big thing...but I think it's more likely
                        that I'll be the next next big thing, if it happens at all.
                        >
                        > Stackpole is a possibility. I'm not sure about McMullen...don't
                        recognize the name right off. I've never been that big a fan of
                        Anderson. Even his Star Wars books never had quite the kick to me
                        as Zahn, Stackpole, or even Aaron Allston.
                        >
                        > Maybe I'm just burned out on the Epic stuff. I cut my teeth on
                        LOTR and then Weiss and Hickman's Dragonlance, Guardians of the
                        Flame (Joel Rosenberg), Feist's Rift War series, and the Elenium and
                        Belgariad by Eddings. And then you've got Lackey's stuff, which
                        varies a bit in quality, in my opinion. My favorite of the Valdemar
                        books will always be her "Queen's Own" trilogy, personally.
                        >
                        > But I always also really liked Glen Cook's Black Company and
                        Garret P.I. books, , and Jennifer Robeson's Tiger and Del series.
                        Not epic fantasy, but something of their own.
                        >
                        > I put both Gemmel's works and Elizabeth Moon's Paksennarion books
                        in the "heroic" category, following and very much improving on the
                        traditions of Robert E. Howard.
                        >
                        > Hell, and then you got Donaldson's "anti-heroic" Chronicles of
                        Thomas Covenant.
                        >
                        > All of these voices have brought something unique to the fantasy
                        field.
                        >
                        > But, I reiterate, I'd pretty much burned out on the epic stuff.
                        >
                        >
                        > Saje Williams
                        > Author of the Infinity: Earth Saga
                        > Book I "Loki's Sin" available now
                        > http://www.wingsepress.com OR
                        > http://www.sajewilliams.com
                        > ----- Original Message -----
                        > From: Matt
                        > To: fantasyfictiondungeon@yahoogroups.com
                        > Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2005 9:10 AM
                        > Subject: [Fantasy Fiction Dungeon] Discussion
                        >
                        >
                        > Okay, i'm going to throw a hand grenade and see what comes to
                        the
                        > surface.
                        >
                        > What are the fundamental differences between Robert Jordan,
                        George
                        > Martin, and Terry Goodkind?
                        >
                        > They all write long, unending epic novels with tons of world
                        > building, a cast of thousands, and meandering plots that are
                        more
                        > convoluted than a Gordian knot. Why do we keep buying these
                        things?
                        > And is there some formula inherent in their makeup that they
                        must
                        > follow?
                        >
                        > I'm just curious. I stop reading Jordan at Path of Daggers,
                        which
                        > i'm halfway through. Martin, i got tired of waiting for A Feast
                        of
                        > Crows to come forth after waiting 5 years after Storm of Swords
                        was
                        > published. And Terry Goodkind cranks his out every year, like
                        > clockwork. Or every 14 to 16 months, depending.
                        >
                        > Is it time for a new torch to be passed to someone else, say
                        Michael
                        > Stackpole, Sean McMullen, Kevin Anderson, to name a few?
                        >
                        > I only say this because it's cyclic. When i was in highschool,
                        Terry
                        > Brooks, David Eddings, Tracy Hickman and Margaret Weis were the
                        > novelists of the moment.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > -------------------------------------------------------------------
                        -----------
                        > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                        >
                        > a.. Visit your group "fantasyfictiondungeon" on the web.
                        >
                        > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                        > fantasyfictiondungeon-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                        >
                        > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms
                        of Service.
                        >
                        >
                        > -------------------------------------------------------------------
                        -----------
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




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                      • Matt
                        It s good to hear someone else reading his stuff other than myself. i have his other series, with Darknesses the first book, i think. Started reading it and
                        Message 11 of 28 , Aug 4, 2005
                          It's good to hear someone else reading his stuff other than myself.
                          i have his other series, with Darknesses the first book, i think.
                          Started reading it and got sidetracked.


                          --- In fantasyfictiondungeon@yahoogroups.com, David Fernau
                          <davidf1966@y...> wrote:
                          > I am currently on my second run-through of Modesitt's Recluse
                          series,
                          > reading The Order War right now. I am holding off on Wellspring of
                          Chaos
                          > till Ordermaster is out in paperback or I end up with $25+ to
                          spare for
                          > the hardcover version.
                          >
                          > Political, yes, but he still gets into the characters' heads to a
                          > certain degree... one thing I like about him is that he shows both
                          sides
                          > sympathetically, which gives the reader a much broader picture of
                          the
                          > world of Recluse.
                          >
                          > If you want fantasy that makes you think, I heartily recommend it.
                          About
                          > the only one I don't care for is Towers of the Sunset, but since
                          it
                          > tells an integral part of the story, I still recommend reading it.
                          >
                          > Matt wrote:
                          >
                          > > Another honorable mention would be L.E. Modesitt, Jr.'s Recluce
                          > > books. I'm reading Wellspring of Chaos right now, which gets back
                          > > more to a character driven aspect than the last few books, which
                          > > were political in nature and kind of dry. His whole Chaos/Order
                          > > mythos could be an encylopedia by itself. I'm surprised someone
                          > > hasn't written one, much like the Guide to Middle Earth, Guide to
                          > > the Wheel of time, Guide to the Land, Guide to Narnia, etc.
                        • Matt
                          Funny thing. I started reading Perdido Street Station and the Scar, as well. I don t really know what to think, at this point. It s like reading a stylized
                          Message 12 of 28 , Aug 4, 2005
                            Funny thing. I started reading Perdido Street Station and the Scar,
                            as well. I don't really know what to think, at this point. It's like
                            reading a stylized version of Dark City and City of Lost Children
                            rolled into Zelazny's Amber stuff. In other words, something very
                            weird and surreal, like you said.


                            --- In fantasyfictiondungeon@yahoogroups.com, "Saje" <soulsaje@c...>
                            wrote:
                            > I'll keep the name in mind. Can you tell me a little about it.
                            >
                            > I have to say that if it's too surreal, oh...what's that brit's
                            name...China Melville or something like that?
                            >
                            > Can't stand it. Either boring or weird. Disjointed in an odd
                            way. I can handle more surreal sci-fi than fantasy, oddly enough.
                            >
                            > If that makes any sense at all...
                            > Saje Williams
                            > Author of the Infinity: Earth Saga
                            > Book I "Loki's Sin" available now
                            > http://www.wingsepress.com OR
                            > http://www.sajewilliams.com
                            > ----- Original Message -----
                            > From: karl barnes
                            > To: fantasyfictiondungeon@yahoogroups.com
                            > Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 8:32 PM
                            > Subject: Re: [Fantasy Fiction Dungeon] Discussion
                            >
                            >
                            > Carol Berg's "Transformation" and "Restoration" are two pretty
                            unique novels. If you haven't tried them, I suggest that you do.
                            >
                            > Saje <soulsaje@c...> wrote:Tastes differ, that's for sure.
                            >
                            > I've already stated my preference for originality. Bishop's
                            series can literally be compared to nothing else I've ever
                            read...that recommends it very highly in my book.
                            >
                            > Besides...there's just something about a series where the heroes
                            are scarier than the villains. <g>
                            >
                            > Saje Williams
                            > Author of the Infinity: Earth Saga
                            > Book I "Loki's Sin" available now
                            > http://www.wingsepress.com OR
                            > http://www.sajewilliams.com
                            > ----- Original Message -----
                            > From: karl barnes
                            > To: fantasyfictiondungeon@yahoogroups.com
                            > Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 5:32 PM
                            > Subject: Re: [Fantasy Fiction Dungeon] Discussion
                            >
                            >
                            > Love Hobbs and yes, I have read "Black Jewels" trilogy though
                            I don't think that it is the best fantasy series in ages. It'll
                            definitely do as a series that I'll highly recommend.
                            >
                            > Saje <soulsaje@c...> wrote:Robin Hobb's good, come to think of
                            it.
                            >
                            > Have you tried Anne Bishop? Has anyone here tried the "Black
                            Jewels?"
                            >
                            > Truly the best fantasy series in ages. Bar none.
                            >
                            >
                            > Saje Williams
                            > Author of the Infinity: Earth Saga
                            > Book I "Loki's Sin" available now
                            > http://www.wingsepress.com OR
                            > http://www.sajewilliams.com
                            > ----- Original Message -----
                            > From: Matt
                            > To: fantasyfictiondungeon@yahoogroups.com
                            > Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 3:39 PM
                            > Subject: Re: [Fantasy Fiction Dungeon] Discussion
                            >
                            >
                            > I get bogged down sometimes, too, always searching for
                            something
                            > fresh to digest. Everyone left Robin Hobb off their list and
                            J.V.
                            > Jones, who are about 10 years into their respective writing
                            careers.
                            > Nothing really new from either of those lately. I thought
                            the
                            > Farseer books were really well done and her writing ranks up
                            there
                            > with Tad Williams as far as it's freshness and lyrical ease.
                            >
                            > Another current would be Elizabeth Haydon, i suppose and
                            Sara
                            > Douglas.
                            >
                            > I always read David Gemmell. There's nothing like a quick
                            kick to
                            > your face to get you energized. That's how his books are.
                            Fast,
                            > furious, no dilly dallying. He has mastered the art of the
                            anti-hero
                            > and the epic hero as well. That's hard to do.
                            >
                            > I do like Dave Duncan's Kings Blades books. I will always
                            love his
                            > Magic Casement and A Man of His Word series. One of the
                            best, fun,
                            > exciting series i've read in a long time. I think they're
                            pretty
                            > much out of print now, but worth reading if you can find
                            them.
                            > They're fun. Nothing serious. Just fun. And the magic system
                            he came
                            > up with was ingenious, in my opinion. It was so simple but
                            sensible
                            > that I wish everyone can be that in their writing. His
                            Swordsman
                            > Trilogy was also good. One of my favorites until i read the
                            Magic
                            > Casement stuff.
                            >
                            > Sean McMullen, for the uninitiated, writes some very time
                            spanning,
                            > epic science fiction from the land down under. He's
                            published here
                            > now and has started a very good fantasy series. His sci
                            fiction is
                            > grandiose but well honed. Souls in the Great Machine is his
                            first, i
                            > think. Very readable and ooh, ahhh kind of stuff.
                            >
                            > As for Anderson, I think his Seven Suns series is very good
                            which
                            > i'm reading now. It's space opera so not serious. Haven't
                            read any
                            > of the Star Wars stuff.
                            >
                            > Another honorable mention would be L.E. Modesitt, Jr.'s
                            Recluce
                            > books. I'm reading Wellspring of Chaos right now, which gets
                            back
                            > more to a character driven aspect than the last few books,
                            which
                            > were political in nature and kind of dry. His whole
                            Chaos/Order
                            > mythos could be an encylopedia by itself. I'm surprised
                            someone
                            > hasn't written one, much like the Guide to Middle Earth,
                            Guide to
                            > the Wheel of time, Guide to the Land, Guide to Narnia, etc.
                            >
                            > I am reading some of Mercedes Lackey's stuff, notably Joust.
                            I read
                            > her first Bardic Voices book, which i loved right up to the
                            point in
                            > which in degenerated into cliche driven romantic muck at the
                            end
                            > that didn't mesh with what she had written the last 200
                            pages. I was
                            > disappointed. I'm reading It Takes A Thief and also have
                            Exiles
                            > Honor to read. She borders on brilliant, but has flashes of
                            > jingoistic juvenilia on the tip of her fingers sometimes,
                            too.
                            >
                            > I highly recommend Summerland by Michael Chabon. Excellent
                            book.
                            > That should have been on my list, too. Anyone that can
                            switch genres
                            > from Pulitzer, National Book Award type stuff like Kavalier
                            and Clay
                            > was to a magical kids book about baseball and "pixies" has
                            to be one
                            > hell of a writer.
                            >
                            > I always loved Thieves World, Asprin's Myth books, Piers
                            Anthony
                            > Xanth books, up to Man from Mundania, i think. And Terry
                            Pratchett
                            > is starting to grow on me and i'm rereading Douglas Adams'
                            stuff,
                            > too. I can't wait until Hitchhiker's Guide comes out on DVD
                            next
                            > month. Some people hated it, but i loved the movie. They
                            captured
                            > the spirit of the books, which is all that i could have
                            hoped for.
                            >
                            > Hmmm. For a good scifi jaunt, read David Brin's Kiln People
                            book.
                            >
                            >
                            > --- In fantasyfictiondungeon@yahoogroups.com, "Saje"
                            <soulsaje@c...>
                            > wrote:
                            > > I have to admit I've gotten a little bored with the epic
                            fantasy
                            > stuff. I really enjoyed both Jordan and Martin...for a
                            time. But
                            > when each book of Jordan's started ending without any sort
                            of real
                            > resolution to that novel's storylines, I got just a little
                            fed up.
                            > >
                            > > I'll probably catch up with Martin when he's finished.
                            He's the
                            > kind of writer I'd just prefer to wait to read. I really
                            enjoyed
                            > the first novel.
                            > >
                            > > I didn't get into Goodkind. I can't say why, exactly.
                            It's been
                            > a while since I read the first book, but I didn't feel
                            caught on
                            > fire by what he's doing.
                            > >
                            > > Frankly, I think Anne Bishop's Black Jewels series blows
                            > everything all three have written right out of the water.
                            Something
                            > OTHER than epic fantasy really struck me where I live. Put
                            it to
                            > you this way--I have never read a fantasy of any kind that
                            you can
                            > compare it to. It's original.
                            > >
                            > > Kinda like mine own, come to think of it. One question I
                            cannot
                            > answer is "who would you compare your work to?"
                            > > I can't think of single good example, though I do play
                            with
                            > concepts that should be familiar to everyone. But my voice,
                            and the
                            > total picture, is like nothing else you've ever read.
                            > >
                            > > I'd LOVE to be the next big thing...but I think it's more
                            likely
                            > that I'll be the next next big thing, if it happens at all.
                            > >
                            > > Stackpole is a possibility. I'm not sure about
                            McMullen...don't
                            > recognize the name right off. I've never been that big a
                            fan of
                            > Anderson. Even his Star Wars books never had quite the kick
                            to me
                            > as Zahn, Stackpole, or even Aaron Allston.
                            > >
                            > > Maybe I'm just burned out on the Epic stuff. I cut my
                            teeth on
                            > LOTR and then Weiss and Hickman's Dragonlance, Guardians of
                            the
                            > Flame (Joel Rosenberg), Feist's Rift War series, and the
                            Elenium and
                            > Belgariad by Eddings. And then you've got Lackey's stuff,
                            which
                            > varies a bit in quality, in my opinion. My favorite of the
                            Valdemar
                            > books will always be her "Queen's Own" trilogy, personally.
                            > >
                            > > But I always also really liked Glen Cook's Black Company
                            and
                            > Garret P.I. books, , and Jennifer Robeson's Tiger and Del
                            series.
                            > Not epic fantasy, but something of their own.
                            > >
                            > > I put both Gemmel's works and Elizabeth Moon's
                            Paksennarion books
                            > in the "heroic" category, following and very much improving
                            on the
                            > traditions of Robert E. Howard.
                            > >
                            > > Hell, and then you got Donaldson's "anti-heroic"
                            Chronicles of
                            > Thomas Covenant.
                            > >
                            > > All of these voices have brought something unique to the
                            fantasy
                            > field.
                            > >
                            > > But, I reiterate, I'd pretty much burned out on the epic
                            stuff.
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > Saje Williams
                            > > Author of the Infinity: Earth Saga
                            > > Book I "Loki's Sin" available now
                            > > http://www.wingsepress.com OR
                            > > http://www.sajewilliams.com
                            > > ----- Original Message -----
                            > > From: Matt
                            > > To: fantasyfictiondungeon@yahoogroups.com
                            > > Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2005 9:10 AM
                            > > Subject: [Fantasy Fiction Dungeon] Discussion
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > Okay, i'm going to throw a hand grenade and see what
                            comes to
                            > the
                            > > surface.
                            > >
                            > > What are the fundamental differences between Robert
                            Jordan,
                            > George
                            > > Martin, and Terry Goodkind?
                            > >
                            > > They all write long, unending epic novels with tons of
                            world
                            > > building, a cast of thousands, and meandering plots that
                            are
                            > more
                            > > convoluted than a Gordian knot. Why do we keep buying
                            these
                            > things?
                            > > And is there some formula inherent in their makeup that
                            they
                            > must
                            > > follow?
                            > >
                            > > I'm just curious. I stop reading Jordan at Path of
                            Daggers,
                            > which
                            > > i'm halfway through. Martin, i got tired of waiting for
                            A Feast
                            > of
                            > > Crows to come forth after waiting 5 years after Storm of
                            Swords
                            > was
                            > > published. And Terry Goodkind cranks his out every year,
                            like
                            > > clockwork. Or every 14 to 16 months, depending.
                            > >
                            > > Is it time for a new torch to be passed to someone else,
                            say
                            > Michael
                            > > Stackpole, Sean McMullen, Kevin Anderson, to name a few?
                            > >
                            > > I only say this because it's cyclic. When i was in
                            highschool,
                            > Terry
                            > > Brooks, David Eddings, Tracy Hickman and Margaret Weis
                            were the
                            > > novelists of the moment.
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
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                          • Saje
                            Perdido Street Station threw me off when I realized what the protagonist s girlfriend was...it was, to me, just weird for the sake of weird. It really turned
                            Message 13 of 28 , Aug 4, 2005
                              Perdido Street Station threw me off when I realized what the protagonist's girlfriend was...it was, to me, just weird for the sake of weird. It really turned me off.

                              And I actually got almost a hundred pages into "The Scar" but I found it rather boring.


                              Saje Williams
                              Author of the Infinity: Earth Saga
                              Book I "Loki's Sin" available now
                              http://www.wingsepress.com OR
                              http://www.sajewilliams.com
                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: Matt
                              To: fantasyfictiondungeon@yahoogroups.com
                              Sent: Thursday, August 04, 2005 12:12 PM
                              Subject: Re: [Fantasy Fiction Dungeon] Discussion


                              Funny thing. I started reading Perdido Street Station and the Scar,
                              as well. I don't really know what to think, at this point. It's like
                              reading a stylized version of Dark City and City of Lost Children
                              rolled into Zelazny's Amber stuff. In other words, something very
                              weird and surreal, like you said.


                              --- In fantasyfictiondungeon@yahoogroups.com, "Saje" <soulsaje@c...>
                              wrote:
                              > I'll keep the name in mind. Can you tell me a little about it.
                              >
                              > I have to say that if it's too surreal, oh...what's that brit's
                              name...China Melville or something like that?
                              >
                              > Can't stand it. Either boring or weird. Disjointed in an odd
                              way. I can handle more surreal sci-fi than fantasy, oddly enough.
                              >
                              > If that makes any sense at all...
                              > Saje Williams
                              > Author of the Infinity: Earth Saga
                              > Book I "Loki's Sin" available now
                              > http://www.wingsepress.com OR
                              > http://www.sajewilliams.com
                              > ----- Original Message -----
                              > From: karl barnes
                              > To: fantasyfictiondungeon@yahoogroups.com
                              > Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 8:32 PM
                              > Subject: Re: [Fantasy Fiction Dungeon] Discussion
                              >
                              >
                              > Carol Berg's "Transformation" and "Restoration" are two pretty
                              unique novels. If you haven't tried them, I suggest that you do.
                              >
                              > Saje <soulsaje@c...> wrote:Tastes differ, that's for sure.
                              >
                              > I've already stated my preference for originality. Bishop's
                              series can literally be compared to nothing else I've ever
                              read...that recommends it very highly in my book.
                              >
                              > Besides...there's just something about a series where the heroes
                              are scarier than the villains. <g>
                              >
                              > Saje Williams
                              > Author of the Infinity: Earth Saga
                              > Book I "Loki's Sin" available now
                              > http://www.wingsepress.com OR
                              > http://www.sajewilliams.com
                              > ----- Original Message -----
                              > From: karl barnes
                              > To: fantasyfictiondungeon@yahoogroups.com
                              > Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 5:32 PM
                              > Subject: Re: [Fantasy Fiction Dungeon] Discussion
                              >
                              >
                              > Love Hobbs and yes, I have read "Black Jewels" trilogy though
                              I don't think that it is the best fantasy series in ages. It'll
                              definitely do as a series that I'll highly recommend.
                              >
                              > Saje <soulsaje@c...> wrote:Robin Hobb's good, come to think of
                              it.
                              >
                              > Have you tried Anne Bishop? Has anyone here tried the "Black
                              Jewels?"
                              >
                              > Truly the best fantasy series in ages. Bar none.
                              >
                              >
                              > Saje Williams
                              > Author of the Infinity: Earth Saga
                              > Book I "Loki's Sin" available now
                              > http://www.wingsepress.com OR
                              > http://www.sajewilliams.com
                              > ----- Original Message -----
                              > From: Matt
                              > To: fantasyfictiondungeon@yahoogroups.com
                              > Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 3:39 PM
                              > Subject: Re: [Fantasy Fiction Dungeon] Discussion
                              >
                              >
                              > I get bogged down sometimes, too, always searching for
                              something
                              > fresh to digest. Everyone left Robin Hobb off their list and
                              J.V.
                              > Jones, who are about 10 years into their respective writing
                              careers.
                              > Nothing really new from either of those lately. I thought
                              the
                              > Farseer books were really well done and her writing ranks up
                              there
                              > with Tad Williams as far as it's freshness and lyrical ease.
                              >
                              > Another current would be Elizabeth Haydon, i suppose and
                              Sara
                              > Douglas.
                              >
                              > I always read David Gemmell. There's nothing like a quick
                              kick to
                              > your face to get you energized. That's how his books are.
                              Fast,
                              > furious, no dilly dallying. He has mastered the art of the
                              anti-hero
                              > and the epic hero as well. That's hard to do.
                              >
                              > I do like Dave Duncan's Kings Blades books. I will always
                              love his
                              > Magic Casement and A Man of His Word series. One of the
                              best, fun,
                              > exciting series i've read in a long time. I think they're
                              pretty
                              > much out of print now, but worth reading if you can find
                              them.
                              > They're fun. Nothing serious. Just fun. And the magic system
                              he came
                              > up with was ingenious, in my opinion. It was so simple but
                              sensible
                              > that I wish everyone can be that in their writing. His
                              Swordsman
                              > Trilogy was also good. One of my favorites until i read the
                              Magic
                              > Casement stuff.
                              >
                              > Sean McMullen, for the uninitiated, writes some very time
                              spanning,
                              > epic science fiction from the land down under. He's
                              published here
                              > now and has started a very good fantasy series. His sci
                              fiction is
                              > grandiose but well honed. Souls in the Great Machine is his
                              first, i
                              > think. Very readable and ooh, ahhh kind of stuff.
                              >
                              > As for Anderson, I think his Seven Suns series is very good
                              which
                              > i'm reading now. It's space opera so not serious. Haven't
                              read any
                              > of the Star Wars stuff.
                              >
                              > Another honorable mention would be L.E. Modesitt, Jr.'s
                              Recluce
                              > books. I'm reading Wellspring of Chaos right now, which gets
                              back
                              > more to a character driven aspect than the last few books,
                              which
                              > were political in nature and kind of dry. His whole
                              Chaos/Order
                              > mythos could be an encylopedia by itself. I'm surprised
                              someone
                              > hasn't written one, much like the Guide to Middle Earth,
                              Guide to
                              > the Wheel of time, Guide to the Land, Guide to Narnia, etc.
                              >
                              > I am reading some of Mercedes Lackey's stuff, notably Joust.
                              I read
                              > her first Bardic Voices book, which i loved right up to the
                              point in
                              > which in degenerated into cliche driven romantic muck at the
                              end
                              > that didn't mesh with what she had written the last 200
                              pages. I was
                              > disappointed. I'm reading It Takes A Thief and also have
                              Exiles
                              > Honor to read. She borders on brilliant, but has flashes of
                              > jingoistic juvenilia on the tip of her fingers sometimes,
                              too.
                              >
                              > I highly recommend Summerland by Michael Chabon. Excellent
                              book.
                              > That should have been on my list, too. Anyone that can
                              switch genres
                              > from Pulitzer, National Book Award type stuff like Kavalier
                              and Clay
                              > was to a magical kids book about baseball and "pixies" has
                              to be one
                              > hell of a writer.
                              >
                              > I always loved Thieves World, Asprin's Myth books, Piers
                              Anthony
                              > Xanth books, up to Man from Mundania, i think. And Terry
                              Pratchett
                              > is starting to grow on me and i'm rereading Douglas Adams'
                              stuff,
                              > too. I can't wait until Hitchhiker's Guide comes out on DVD
                              next
                              > month. Some people hated it, but i loved the movie. They
                              captured
                              > the spirit of the books, which is all that i could have
                              hoped for.
                              >
                              > Hmmm. For a good scifi jaunt, read David Brin's Kiln People
                              book.
                              >
                              >
                              > --- In fantasyfictiondungeon@yahoogroups.com, "Saje"
                              <soulsaje@c...>
                              > wrote:
                              > > I have to admit I've gotten a little bored with the epic
                              fantasy
                              > stuff. I really enjoyed both Jordan and Martin...for a
                              time. But
                              > when each book of Jordan's started ending without any sort
                              of real
                              > resolution to that novel's storylines, I got just a little
                              fed up.
                              > >
                              > > I'll probably catch up with Martin when he's finished.
                              He's the
                              > kind of writer I'd just prefer to wait to read. I really
                              enjoyed
                              > the first novel.
                              > >
                              > > I didn't get into Goodkind. I can't say why, exactly.
                              It's been
                              > a while since I read the first book, but I didn't feel
                              caught on
                              > fire by what he's doing.
                              > >
                              > > Frankly, I think Anne Bishop's Black Jewels series blows
                              > everything all three have written right out of the water.
                              Something
                              > OTHER than epic fantasy really struck me where I live. Put
                              it to
                              > you this way--I have never read a fantasy of any kind that
                              you can
                              > compare it to. It's original.
                              > >
                              > > Kinda like mine own, come to think of it. One question I
                              cannot
                              > answer is "who would you compare your work to?"
                              > > I can't think of single good example, though I do play
                              with
                              > concepts that should be familiar to everyone. But my voice,
                              and the
                              > total picture, is like nothing else you've ever read.
                              > >
                              > > I'd LOVE to be the next big thing...but I think it's more
                              likely
                              > that I'll be the next next big thing, if it happens at all.
                              > >
                              > > Stackpole is a possibility. I'm not sure about
                              McMullen...don't
                              > recognize the name right off. I've never been that big a
                              fan of
                              > Anderson. Even his Star Wars books never had quite the kick
                              to me
                              > as Zahn, Stackpole, or even Aaron Allston.
                              > >
                              > > Maybe I'm just burned out on the Epic stuff. I cut my
                              teeth on
                              > LOTR and then Weiss and Hickman's Dragonlance, Guardians of
                              the
                              > Flame (Joel Rosenberg), Feist's Rift War series, and the
                              Elenium and
                              > Belgariad by Eddings. And then you've got Lackey's stuff,
                              which
                              > varies a bit in quality, in my opinion. My favorite of the
                              Valdemar
                              > books will always be her "Queen's Own" trilogy, personally.
                              > >
                              > > But I always also really liked Glen Cook's Black Company
                              and
                              > Garret P.I. books, , and Jennifer Robeson's Tiger and Del
                              series.
                              > Not epic fantasy, but something of their own.
                              > >
                              > > I put both Gemmel's works and Elizabeth Moon's
                              Paksennarion books
                              > in the "heroic" category, following and very much improving
                              on the
                              > traditions of Robert E. Howard.
                              > >
                              > > Hell, and then you got Donaldson's "anti-heroic"
                              Chronicles of
                              > Thomas Covenant.
                              > >
                              > > All of these voices have brought something unique to the
                              fantasy
                              > field.
                              > >
                              > > But, I reiterate, I'd pretty much burned out on the epic
                              stuff.
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > Saje Williams
                              > > Author of the Infinity: Earth Saga
                              > > Book I "Loki's Sin" available now
                              > > http://www.wingsepress.com OR
                              > > http://www.sajewilliams.com
                              > > ----- Original Message -----
                              > > From: Matt
                              > > To: fantasyfictiondungeon@yahoogroups.com
                              > > Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2005 9:10 AM
                              > > Subject: [Fantasy Fiction Dungeon] Discussion
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > Okay, i'm going to throw a hand grenade and see what
                              comes to
                              > the
                              > > surface.
                              > >
                              > > What are the fundamental differences between Robert
                              Jordan,
                              > George
                              > > Martin, and Terry Goodkind?
                              > >
                              > > They all write long, unending epic novels with tons of
                              world
                              > > building, a cast of thousands, and meandering plots that
                              are
                              > more
                              > > convoluted than a Gordian knot. Why do we keep buying
                              these
                              > things?
                              > > And is there some formula inherent in their makeup that
                              they
                              > must
                              > > follow?
                              > >
                              > > I'm just curious. I stop reading Jordan at Path of
                              Daggers,
                              > which
                              > > i'm halfway through. Martin, i got tired of waiting for
                              A Feast
                              > of
                              > > Crows to come forth after waiting 5 years after Storm of
                              Swords
                              > was
                              > > published. And Terry Goodkind cranks his out every year,
                              like
                              > > clockwork. Or every 14 to 16 months, depending.
                              > >
                              > > Is it time for a new torch to be passed to someone else,
                              say
                              > Michael
                              > > Stackpole, Sean McMullen, Kevin Anderson, to name a few?
                              > >
                              > > I only say this because it's cyclic. When i was in
                              highschool,
                              > Terry
                              > > Brooks, David Eddings, Tracy Hickman and Margaret Weis
                              were the
                              > > novelists of the moment.
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
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                            • Matt
                              Unfortunately or fortunately, China Mieville is the darling of the British literary elite right now, as well as members of the Socialist political
                              Message 14 of 28 , Aug 4, 2005
                                Unfortunately or fortunately, China Mieville is the darling of the
                                British literary elite right now, as well as members of the
                                Socialist political establishment over there, being he was very
                                close to being an MP for the Socialist Alliance. His left wing
                                mantra is a large part of his writing. Everything has a very
                                Dickensian aura over everything, as far as the gloom and industrial
                                harshness of cities.

                                Not that that is wrong. His concepts are very surreal and weird, and
                                he does it on purpose, as he's said that he's looking for a real,
                                anti-Tolkien, Lovecraftian feel to things to get away from the
                                standard tropes and cliches we've been saddled with. And, of course,
                                political bent is inherent in any person's writing, whether they
                                know they're doing it or not.



                                --- In fantasyfictiondungeon@yahoogroups.com, "Saje" <soulsaje@c...>
                                wrote:
                                > Perdido Street Station threw me off when I realized what the
                                protagonist's girlfriend was...it was, to me, just weird for the
                                sake of weird. It really turned me off.
                                >
                                > And I actually got almost a hundred pages into "The Scar" but I
                                found it rather boring.
                                >
                                >
                                > Saje Williams
                                > Author of the Infinity: Earth Saga
                                > Book I "Loki's Sin" available now
                                > http://www.wingsepress.com OR
                                > http://www.sajewilliams.com
                                > ----- Original Message -----
                                > From: Matt
                                > To: fantasyfictiondungeon@yahoogroups.com
                                > Sent: Thursday, August 04, 2005 12:12 PM
                                > Subject: Re: [Fantasy Fiction Dungeon] Discussion
                                >
                                >
                                > Funny thing. I started reading Perdido Street Station and the
                                Scar,
                                > as well. I don't really know what to think, at this point. It's
                                like
                                > reading a stylized version of Dark City and City of Lost
                                Children
                                > rolled into Zelazny's Amber stuff. In other words, something
                                very
                                > weird and surreal, like you said.
                                >
                                >
                                > --- In fantasyfictiondungeon@yahoogroups.com, "Saje"
                                <soulsaje@c...>
                                > wrote:
                                > > I'll keep the name in mind. Can you tell me a little about it.
                                > >
                                > > I have to say that if it's too surreal, oh...what's that
                                brit's
                                > name...China Melville or something like that?
                                > >
                                > > Can't stand it. Either boring or weird. Disjointed in an odd
                                > way. I can handle more surreal sci-fi than fantasy, oddly
                                enough.
                                > >
                                > > If that makes any sense at all...
                                > > Saje Williams
                                > > Author of the Infinity: Earth Saga
                                > > Book I "Loki's Sin" available now
                                > > http://www.wingsepress.com OR
                                > > http://www.sajewilliams.com
                                > > ----- Original Message -----
                                > > From: karl barnes
                                > > To: fantasyfictiondungeon@yahoogroups.com
                                > > Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 8:32 PM
                                > > Subject: Re: [Fantasy Fiction Dungeon] Discussion
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > Carol Berg's "Transformation" and "Restoration" are two
                                pretty
                                > unique novels. If you haven't tried them, I suggest that you do.
                                > >
                                > > Saje <soulsaje@c...> wrote:Tastes differ, that's for sure.
                                > >
                                > > I've already stated my preference for originality. Bishop's
                                > series can literally be compared to nothing else I've ever
                                > read...that recommends it very highly in my book.
                                > >
                                > > Besides...there's just something about a series where the
                                heroes
                                > are scarier than the villains. <g>
                                > >
                                > > Saje Williams
                                > > Author of the Infinity: Earth Saga
                                > > Book I "Loki's Sin" available now
                                > > http://www.wingsepress.com OR
                                > > http://www.sajewilliams.com
                                > > ----- Original Message -----
                                > > From: karl barnes
                                > > To: fantasyfictiondungeon@yahoogroups.com
                                > > Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 5:32 PM
                                > > Subject: Re: [Fantasy Fiction Dungeon] Discussion
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > Love Hobbs and yes, I have read "Black Jewels" trilogy
                                though
                                > I don't think that it is the best fantasy series in ages. It'll
                                > definitely do as a series that I'll highly recommend.
                                > >
                                > > Saje <soulsaje@c...> wrote:Robin Hobb's good, come to
                                think of
                                > it.
                                > >
                                > > Have you tried Anne Bishop? Has anyone here tried
                                the "Black
                                > Jewels?"
                                > >
                                > > Truly the best fantasy series in ages. Bar none.
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > Saje Williams
                                > > Author of the Infinity: Earth Saga
                                > > Book I "Loki's Sin" available now
                                > > http://www.wingsepress.com OR
                                > > http://www.sajewilliams.com
                                > > ----- Original Message -----
                                > > From: Matt
                                > > To: fantasyfictiondungeon@yahoogroups.com
                                > > Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 3:39 PM
                                > > Subject: Re: [Fantasy Fiction Dungeon] Discussion
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > I get bogged down sometimes, too, always searching for
                                > something
                                > > fresh to digest. Everyone left Robin Hobb off their list
                                and
                                > J.V.
                                > > Jones, who are about 10 years into their respective
                                writing
                                > careers.
                                > > Nothing really new from either of those lately. I
                                thought
                                > the
                                > > Farseer books were really well done and her writing
                                ranks up
                                > there
                                > > with Tad Williams as far as it's freshness and lyrical
                                ease.
                                > >
                                > > Another current would be Elizabeth Haydon, i suppose and
                                > Sara
                                > > Douglas.
                                > >
                                > > I always read David Gemmell. There's nothing like a
                                quick
                                > kick to
                                > > your face to get you energized. That's how his books
                                are.
                                > Fast,
                                > > furious, no dilly dallying. He has mastered the art of
                                the
                                > anti-hero
                                > > and the epic hero as well. That's hard to do.
                                > >
                                > > I do like Dave Duncan's Kings Blades books. I will
                                always
                                > love his
                                > > Magic Casement and A Man of His Word series. One of the
                                > best, fun,
                                > > exciting series i've read in a long time. I think
                                they're
                                > pretty
                                > > much out of print now, but worth reading if you can find
                                > them.
                                > > They're fun. Nothing serious. Just fun. And the magic
                                system
                                > he came
                                > > up with was ingenious, in my opinion. It was so simple
                                but
                                > sensible
                                > > that I wish everyone can be that in their writing. His
                                > Swordsman
                                > > Trilogy was also good. One of my favorites until i read
                                the
                                > Magic
                                > > Casement stuff.
                                > >
                                > > Sean McMullen, for the uninitiated, writes some very
                                time
                                > spanning,
                                > > epic science fiction from the land down under. He's
                                > published here
                                > > now and has started a very good fantasy series. His sci
                                > fiction is
                                > > grandiose but well honed. Souls in the Great Machine is
                                his
                                > first, i
                                > > think. Very readable and ooh, ahhh kind of stuff.
                                > >
                                > > As for Anderson, I think his Seven Suns series is very
                                good
                                > which
                                > > i'm reading now. It's space opera so not serious.
                                Haven't
                                > read any
                                > > of the Star Wars stuff.
                                > >
                                > > Another honorable mention would be L.E. Modesitt, Jr.'s
                                > Recluce
                                > > books. I'm reading Wellspring of Chaos right now, which
                                gets
                                > back
                                > > more to a character driven aspect than the last few
                                books,
                                > which
                                > > were political in nature and kind of dry. His whole
                                > Chaos/Order
                                > > mythos could be an encylopedia by itself. I'm surprised
                                > someone
                                > > hasn't written one, much like the Guide to Middle Earth,
                                > Guide to
                                > > the Wheel of time, Guide to the Land, Guide to Narnia,
                                etc.
                                > >
                                > > I am reading some of Mercedes Lackey's stuff, notably
                                Joust.
                                > I read
                                > > her first Bardic Voices book, which i loved right up to
                                the
                                > point in
                                > > which in degenerated into cliche driven romantic muck at
                                the
                                > end
                                > > that didn't mesh with what she had written the last 200
                                > pages. I was
                                > > disappointed. I'm reading It Takes A Thief and also have
                                > Exiles
                                > > Honor to read. She borders on brilliant, but has flashes
                                of
                                > > jingoistic juvenilia on the tip of her fingers
                                sometimes,
                                > too.
                                > >
                                > > I highly recommend Summerland by Michael Chabon.
                                Excellent
                                > book.
                                > > That should have been on my list, too. Anyone that can
                                > switch genres
                                > > from Pulitzer, National Book Award type stuff like
                                Kavalier
                                > and Clay
                                > > was to a magical kids book about baseball and "pixies"
                                has
                                > to be one
                                > > hell of a writer.
                                > >
                                > > I always loved Thieves World, Asprin's Myth books, Piers
                                > Anthony
                                > > Xanth books, up to Man from Mundania, i think. And Terry
                                > Pratchett
                                > > is starting to grow on me and i'm rereading Douglas
                                Adams'
                                > stuff,
                                > > too. I can't wait until Hitchhiker's Guide comes out on
                                DVD
                                > next
                                > > month. Some people hated it, but i loved the movie. They
                                > captured
                                > > the spirit of the books, which is all that i could have
                                > hoped for.
                                > >
                                > > Hmmm. For a good scifi jaunt, read David Brin's Kiln
                                People
                                > book.
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > --- In fantasyfictiondungeon@yahoogroups.com, "Saje"
                                > <soulsaje@c...>
                                > > wrote:
                                > > > I have to admit I've gotten a little bored with the
                                epic
                                > fantasy
                                > > stuff. I really enjoyed both Jordan and Martin...for a
                                > time. But
                                > > when each book of Jordan's started ending without any
                                sort
                                > of real
                                > > resolution to that novel's storylines, I got just a
                                little
                                > fed up.
                                > > >
                                > > > I'll probably catch up with Martin when he's
                                finished.
                                > He's the
                                > > kind of writer I'd just prefer to wait to read. I
                                really
                                > enjoyed
                                > > the first novel.
                                > > >
                                > > > I didn't get into Goodkind. I can't say why,
                                exactly.
                                > It's been
                                > > a while since I read the first book, but I didn't feel
                                > caught on
                                > > fire by what he's doing.
                                > > >
                                > > > Frankly, I think Anne Bishop's Black Jewels series
                                blows
                                > > everything all three have written right out of the
                                water.
                                > Something
                                > > OTHER than epic fantasy really struck me where I live.
                                Put
                                > it to
                                > > you this way--I have never read a fantasy of any kind
                                that
                                > you can
                                > > compare it to. It's original.
                                > > >
                                > > > Kinda like mine own, come to think of it. One
                                question I
                                > cannot
                                > > answer is "who would you compare your work to?"
                                > > > I can't think of single good example, though I do play
                                > with
                                > > concepts that should be familiar to everyone. But my
                                voice,
                                > and the
                                > > total picture, is like nothing else you've ever read.
                                > > >
                                > > > I'd LOVE to be the next big thing...but I think it's
                                more
                                > likely
                                > > that I'll be the next next big thing, if it happens at
                                all.
                                > > >
                                > > > Stackpole is a possibility. I'm not sure about
                                > McMullen...don't
                                > > recognize the name right off. I've never been that big
                                a
                                > fan of
                                > > Anderson. Even his Star Wars books never had quite the
                                kick
                                > to me
                                > > as Zahn, Stackpole, or even Aaron Allston.
                                > > >
                                > > > Maybe I'm just burned out on the Epic stuff. I cut my
                                > teeth on
                                > > LOTR and then Weiss and Hickman's Dragonlance, Guardians
                                of
                                > the
                                > > Flame (Joel Rosenberg), Feist's Rift War series, and the
                                > Elenium and
                                > > Belgariad by Eddings. And then you've got Lackey's
                                stuff,
                                > which
                                > > varies a bit in quality, in my opinion. My favorite of
                                the
                                > Valdemar
                                > > books will always be her "Queen's Own" trilogy,
                                personally.
                                > > >
                                > > > But I always also really liked Glen Cook's Black
                                Company
                                > and
                                > > Garret P.I. books, , and Jennifer Robeson's Tiger and
                                Del
                                > series.
                                > > Not epic fantasy, but something of their own.
                                > > >
                                > > > I put both Gemmel's works and Elizabeth Moon's
                                > Paksennarion books
                                > > in the "heroic" category, following and very much
                                improving
                                > on the
                                > > traditions of Robert E. Howard.
                                > > >
                                > > > Hell, and then you got Donaldson's "anti-heroic"
                                > Chronicles of
                                > > Thomas Covenant.
                                > > >
                                > > > All of these voices have brought something unique to
                                the
                                > fantasy
                                > > field.
                                > > >
                                > > > But, I reiterate, I'd pretty much burned out on the
                                epic
                                > stuff.
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > > Saje Williams
                                > > > Author of the Infinity: Earth Saga
                                > > > Book I "Loki's Sin" available now
                                > > > http://www.wingsepress.com OR
                                > > > http://www.sajewilliams.com
                                > > > ----- Original Message -----
                                > > > From: Matt
                                > > > To: fantasyfictiondungeon@yahoogroups.com
                                > > > Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2005 9:10 AM
                                > > > Subject: [Fantasy Fiction Dungeon] Discussion
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > > Okay, i'm going to throw a hand grenade and see what
                                > comes to
                                > > the
                                > > > surface.
                                > > >
                                > > > What are the fundamental differences between Robert
                                > Jordan,
                                > > George
                                > > > Martin, and Terry Goodkind?
                                > > >
                                > > > They all write long, unending epic novels with tons
                                of
                                > world
                                > > > building, a cast of thousands, and meandering plots
                                that
                                > are
                                > > more
                                > > > convoluted than a Gordian knot. Why do we keep
                                buying
                                > these
                                > > things?
                                > > > And is there some formula inherent in their makeup
                                that
                                > they
                                > > must
                                > > > follow?
                                > > >
                                > > > I'm just curious. I stop reading Jordan at Path of
                                > Daggers,
                                > > which
                                > > > i'm halfway through. Martin, i got tired of waiting
                                for
                                > A Feast
                                > > of
                                > > > Crows to come forth after waiting 5 years after
                                Storm of
                                > Swords
                                > > was
                                > > > published. And Terry Goodkind cranks his out every
                                year,
                                > like
                                > > > clockwork. Or every 14 to 16 months, depending.
                                > > >
                                > > > Is it time for a new torch to be passed to someone
                                else,
                                > say
                                > > Michael
                                > > > Stackpole, Sean McMullen, Kevin Anderson, to name a
                                few?
                                > > >
                                > > > I only say this because it's cyclic. When i was in
                                > highschool,
                                > > Terry
                                > > > Brooks, David Eddings, Tracy Hickman and Margaret
                                Weis
                                > were the
                                > > > novelists of the moment.
                                > > >
                                > > >
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                              • karl barnes
                                I read his first novel, King Rat, which is a wonderful continuation of the Pied Piper story with some intersting twists. BUT his preaching(and that is what it
                                Message 15 of 28 , Aug 4, 2005
                                  I read his first novel, King Rat, which is a wonderful continuation of the Pied Piper story with some intersting twists. BUT his preaching(and that is what it was) at the end of the story kind of put me off a bit.

                                  Matt <gauvaine@...> wrote:Unfortunately or fortunately, China Mieville is the darling of the
                                  British literary elite right now, as well as members of the
                                  Socialist political establishment over there, being he was very
                                  close to being an MP for the Socialist Alliance. His left wing
                                  mantra is a large part of his writing. Everything has a very
                                  Dickensian aura over everything, as far as the gloom and industrial
                                  harshness of cities.

                                  Not that that is wrong. His concepts are very surreal and weird, and
                                  he does it on purpose, as he's said that he's looking for a real,
                                  anti-Tolkien, Lovecraftian feel to things to get away from the
                                  standard tropes and cliches we've been saddled with. And, of course,
                                  political bent is inherent in any person's writing, whether they
                                  know they're doing it or not.



                                  --- In fantasyfictiondungeon@yahoogroups.com, "Saje" <soulsaje@c...>
                                  wrote:
                                  > Perdido Street Station threw me off when I realized what the
                                  protagonist's girlfriend was...it was, to me, just weird for the
                                  sake of weird. It really turned me off.
                                  >
                                  > And I actually got almost a hundred pages into "The Scar" but I
                                  found it rather boring.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Saje Williams
                                  > Author of the Infinity: Earth Saga
                                  > Book I "Loki's Sin" available now
                                  > http://www.wingsepress.com OR
                                  > http://www.sajewilliams.com
                                  > ----- Original Message -----
                                  > From: Matt
                                  > To: fantasyfictiondungeon@yahoogroups.com
                                  > Sent: Thursday, August 04, 2005 12:12 PM
                                  > Subject: Re: [Fantasy Fiction Dungeon] Discussion
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Funny thing. I started reading Perdido Street Station and the
                                  Scar,
                                  > as well. I don't really know what to think, at this point. It's
                                  like
                                  > reading a stylized version of Dark City and City of Lost
                                  Children
                                  > rolled into Zelazny's Amber stuff. In other words, something
                                  very
                                  > weird and surreal, like you said.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > --- In fantasyfictiondungeon@yahoogroups.com, "Saje"
                                  <soulsaje@c...>
                                  > wrote:
                                  > > I'll keep the name in mind. Can you tell me a little about it.
                                  > >
                                  > > I have to say that if it's too surreal, oh...what's that
                                  brit's
                                  > name...China Melville or something like that?
                                  > >
                                  > > Can't stand it. Either boring or weird. Disjointed in an odd
                                  > way. I can handle more surreal sci-fi than fantasy, oddly
                                  enough.
                                  > >
                                  > > If that makes any sense at all...
                                  > > Saje Williams
                                  > > Author of the Infinity: Earth Saga
                                  > > Book I "Loki's Sin" available now
                                  > > http://www.wingsepress.com OR
                                  > > http://www.sajewilliams.com
                                  > > ----- Original Message -----
                                  > > From: karl barnes
                                  > > To: fantasyfictiondungeon@yahoogroups.com
                                  > > Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 8:32 PM
                                  > > Subject: Re: [Fantasy Fiction Dungeon] Discussion
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > Carol Berg's "Transformation" and "Restoration" are two
                                  pretty
                                  > unique novels. If you haven't tried them, I suggest that you do.
                                  > >
                                  > > Saje <soulsaje@c...> wrote:Tastes differ, that's for sure.
                                  > >
                                  > > I've already stated my preference for originality. Bishop's
                                  > series can literally be compared to nothing else I've ever
                                  > read...that recommends it very highly in my book.
                                  > >
                                  > > Besides...there's just something about a series where the
                                  heroes
                                  > are scarier than the villains. <g>
                                  > >
                                  > > Saje Williams
                                  > > Author of the Infinity: Earth Saga
                                  > > Book I "Loki's Sin" available now
                                  > > http://www.wingsepress.com OR
                                  > > http://www.sajewilliams.com
                                  > > ----- Original Message -----
                                  > > From: karl barnes
                                  > > To: fantasyfictiondungeon@yahoogroups.com
                                  > > Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 5:32 PM
                                  > > Subject: Re: [Fantasy Fiction Dungeon] Discussion
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > Love Hobbs and yes, I have read "Black Jewels" trilogy
                                  though
                                  > I don't think that it is the best fantasy series in ages. It'll
                                  > definitely do as a series that I'll highly recommend.
                                  > >
                                  > > Saje <soulsaje@c...> wrote:Robin Hobb's good, come to
                                  think of
                                  > it.
                                  > >
                                  > > Have you tried Anne Bishop? Has anyone here tried
                                  the "Black
                                  > Jewels?"
                                  > >
                                  > > Truly the best fantasy series in ages. Bar none.
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > Saje Williams
                                  > > Author of the Infinity: Earth Saga
                                  > > Book I "Loki's Sin" available now
                                  > > http://www.wingsepress.com OR
                                  > > http://www.sajewilliams.com
                                  > > ----- Original Message -----
                                  > > From: Matt
                                  > > To: fantasyfictiondungeon@yahoogroups.com
                                  > > Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 3:39 PM
                                  > > Subject: Re: [Fantasy Fiction Dungeon] Discussion
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > I get bogged down sometimes, too, always searching for
                                  > something
                                  > > fresh to digest. Everyone left Robin Hobb off their list
                                  and
                                  > J.V.
                                  > > Jones, who are about 10 years into their respective
                                  writing
                                  > careers.
                                  > > Nothing really new from either of those lately. I
                                  thought
                                  > the
                                  > > Farseer books were really well done and her writing
                                  ranks up
                                  > there
                                  > > with Tad Williams as far as it's freshness and lyrical
                                  ease.
                                  > >
                                  > > Another current would be Elizabeth Haydon, i suppose and
                                  > Sara
                                  > > Douglas.
                                  > >
                                  > > I always read David Gemmell. There's nothing like a
                                  quick
                                  > kick to
                                  > > your face to get you energized. That's how his books
                                  are.
                                  > Fast,
                                  > > furious, no dilly dallying. He has mastered the art of
                                  the
                                  > anti-hero
                                  > > and the epic hero as well. That's hard to do.
                                  > >
                                  > > I do like Dave Duncan's Kings Blades books. I will
                                  always
                                  > love his
                                  > > Magic Casement and A Man of His Word series. One of the
                                  > best, fun,
                                  > > exciting series i've read in a long time. I think
                                  they're
                                  > pretty
                                  > > much out of print now, but worth reading if you can find
                                  > them.
                                  > > They're fun. Nothing serious. Just fun. And the magic
                                  system
                                  > he came
                                  > > up with was ingenious, in my opinion. It was so simple
                                  but
                                  > sensible
                                  > > that I wish everyone can be that in their writing. His
                                  > Swordsman
                                  > > Trilogy was also good. One of my favorites until i read
                                  the
                                  > Magic
                                  > > Casement stuff.
                                  > >
                                  > > Sean McMullen, for the uninitiated, writes some very
                                  time
                                  > spanning,
                                  > > epic science fiction from the land down under. He's
                                  > published here
                                  > > now and has started a very good fantasy series. His sci
                                  > fiction is
                                  > > grandiose but well honed. Souls in the Great Machine is
                                  his
                                  > first, i
                                  > > think. Very readable and ooh, ahhh kind of stuff.
                                  > >
                                  > > As for Anderson, I think his Seven Suns series is very
                                  good
                                  > which
                                  > > i'm reading now. It's space opera so not serious.
                                  Haven't
                                  > read any
                                  > > of the Star Wars stuff.
                                  > >
                                  > > Another honorable mention would be L.E. Modesitt, Jr.'s
                                  > Recluce
                                  > > books. I'm reading Wellspring of Chaos right now, which
                                  gets
                                  > back
                                  > > more to a character driven aspect than the last few
                                  books,
                                  > which
                                  > > were political in nature and kind of dry. His whole
                                  > Chaos/Order
                                  > > mythos could be an encylopedia by itself. I'm surprised
                                  > someone
                                  > > hasn't written one, much like the Guide to Middle Earth,
                                  > Guide to
                                  > > the Wheel of time, Guide to the Land, Guide to Narnia,
                                  etc.
                                  > >
                                  > > I am reading some of Mercedes Lackey's stuff, notably
                                  Joust.
                                  > I read
                                  > > her first Bardic Voices book, which i loved right up to
                                  the
                                  > point in
                                  > > which in degenerated into cliche driven romantic muck at
                                  the
                                  > end
                                  > > that didn't mesh with what she had written the last 200
                                  > pages. I was
                                  > > disappointed. I'm reading It Takes A Thief and also have
                                  > Exiles
                                  > > Honor to read. She borders on brilliant, but has flashes
                                  of
                                  > > jingoistic juvenilia on the tip of her fingers
                                  sometimes,
                                  > too.
                                  > >
                                  > > I highly recommend Summerland by Michael Chabon.
                                  Excellent
                                  > book.
                                  > > That should have been on my list, too. Anyone that can
                                  > switch genres
                                  > > from Pulitzer, National Book Award type stuff like
                                  Kavalier
                                  > and Clay
                                  > > was to a magical kids book about baseball and "pixies"
                                  has
                                  > to be one
                                  > > hell of a writer.
                                  > >
                                  > > I always loved Thieves World, Asprin's Myth books, Piers
                                  > Anthony
                                  > > Xanth books, up to Man from Mundania, i think. And Terry
                                  > Pratchett
                                  > > is starting to grow on me and i'm rereading Douglas
                                  Adams'
                                  > stuff,
                                  > > too. I can't wait until Hitchhiker's Guide comes out on
                                  DVD
                                  > next
                                  > > month. Some people hated it, but i loved the movie. They
                                  > captured
                                  > > the spirit of the books, which is all that i could have
                                  > hoped for.
                                  > >
                                  > > Hmmm. For a good scifi jaunt, read David Brin's Kiln
                                  People
                                  > book.
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > --- In fantasyfictiondungeon@yahoogroups.com, "Saje"
                                  > <soulsaje@c...>
                                  > > wrote:
                                  > > > I have to admit I've gotten a little bored with the
                                  epic
                                  > fantasy
                                  > > stuff. I really enjoyed both Jordan and Martin...for a
                                  > time. But
                                  > > when each book of Jordan's started ending without any
                                  sort
                                  > of real
                                  > > resolution to that novel's storylines, I got just a
                                  little
                                  > fed up.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > I'll probably catch up with Martin when he's
                                  finished.
                                  > He's the
                                  > > kind of writer I'd just prefer to wait to read. I
                                  really
                                  > enjoyed
                                  > > the first novel.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > I didn't get into Goodkind. I can't say why,
                                  exactly.
                                  > It's been
                                  > > a while since I read the first book, but I didn't feel
                                  > caught on
                                  > > fire by what he's doing.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Frankly, I think Anne Bishop's Black Jewels series
                                  blows
                                  > > everything all three have written right out of the
                                  water.
                                  > Something
                                  > > OTHER than epic fantasy really struck me where I live.
                                  Put
                                  > it to
                                  > > you this way--I have never read a fantasy of any kind
                                  that
                                  > you can
                                  > > compare it to. It's original.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Kinda like mine own, come to think of it. One
                                  question I
                                  > cannot
                                  > > answer is "who would you compare your work to?"
                                  > > > I can't think of single good example, though I do play
                                  > with
                                  > > concepts that should be familiar to everyone. But my
                                  voice,
                                  > and the
                                  > > total picture, is like nothing else you've ever read.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > I'd LOVE to be the next big thing...but I think it's
                                  more
                                  > likely
                                  > > that I'll be the next next big thing, if it happens at
                                  all.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Stackpole is a possibility. I'm not sure about
                                  > McMullen...don't
                                  > > recognize the name right off. I've never been that big
                                  a
                                  > fan of
                                  > > Anderson. Even his Star Wars books never had quite the
                                  kick
                                  > to me
                                  > > as Zahn, Stackpole, or even Aaron Allston.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Maybe I'm just burned out on the Epic stuff. I cut my
                                  > teeth on
                                  > > LOTR and then Weiss and Hickman's Dragonlance, Guardians
                                  of
                                  > the
                                  > > Flame (Joel Rosenberg), Feist's Rift War series, and the
                                  > Elenium and
                                  > > Belgariad by Eddings. And then you've got Lackey's
                                  stuff,
                                  > which
                                  > > varies a bit in quality, in my opinion. My favorite of
                                  the
                                  > Valdemar
                                  > > books will always be her "Queen's Own" trilogy,
                                  personally.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > But I always also really liked Glen Cook's Black
                                  Company
                                  > and
                                  > > Garret P.I. books, , and Jennifer Robeson's Tiger and
                                  Del
                                  > series.
                                  > > Not epic fantasy, but something of their own.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > I put both Gemmel's works and Elizabeth Moon's
                                  > Paksennarion books
                                  > > in the "heroic" category, following and very much
                                  improving
                                  > on the
                                  > > traditions of Robert E. Howard.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Hell, and then you got Donaldson's "anti-heroic"
                                  > Chronicles of
                                  > > Thomas Covenant.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > All of these voices have brought something unique to
                                  the
                                  > fantasy
                                  > > field.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > But, I reiterate, I'd pretty much burned out on the
                                  epic
                                  > stuff.
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Saje Williams
                                  > > > Author of the Infinity: Earth Saga
                                  > > > Book I "Loki's Sin" available now
                                  > > > http://www.wingsepress.com OR
                                  > > > http://www.sajewilliams.com
                                  > > > ----- Original Message -----
                                  > > > From: Matt
                                  > > > To: fantasyfictiondungeon@yahoogroups.com
                                  > > > Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2005 9:10 AM
                                  > > > Subject: [Fantasy Fiction Dungeon] Discussion
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Okay, i'm going to throw a hand grenade and see what
                                  > comes to
                                  > > the
                                  > > > surface.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > What are the fundamental differences between Robert
                                  > Jordan,
                                  > > George
                                  > > > Martin, and Terry Goodkind?
                                  > > >
                                  > > > They all write long, unending epic novels with tons
                                  of
                                  > world
                                  > > > building, a cast of thousands, and meandering plots
                                  that
                                  > are
                                  > > more
                                  > > > convoluted than a Gordian knot. Why do we keep
                                  buying
                                  > these
                                  > > things?
                                  > > > And is there some formula inherent in their makeup
                                  that
                                  > they
                                  > > must
                                  > > > follow?
                                  > > >
                                  > > > I'm just curious. I stop reading Jordan at Path of
                                  > Daggers,
                                  > > which
                                  > > > i'm halfway through. Martin, i got tired of waiting
                                  for
                                  > A Feast
                                  > > of
                                  > > > Crows to come forth after waiting 5 years after
                                  Storm of
                                  > Swords
                                  > > was
                                  > > > published. And Terry Goodkind cranks his out every
                                  year,
                                  > like
                                  > > > clockwork. Or every 14 to 16 months, depending.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Is it time for a new torch to be passed to someone
                                  else,
                                  > say
                                  > > Michael
                                  > > > Stackpole, Sean McMullen, Kevin Anderson, to name a
                                  few?
                                  > > >
                                  > > > I only say this because it's cyclic. When i was in
                                  > highschool,
                                  > > Terry
                                  > > > Brooks, David Eddings, Tracy Hickman and Margaret
                                  Weis
                                  > were the
                                  > > > novelists of the moment.
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > -------------------------------------------------------
                                  ----
                                  > --------
                                  > > -----------
                                  > > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                                  > > >
                                  > > > a.. Visit your group "fantasyfictiondungeon" on
                                  the
                                  > web.
                                  > > >
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                                • Saje
                                  Never read them, though they sound intriguing... Saje Williams Author of the Infinity: Earth Saga Book I Loki s Sin available now http://www.wingsepress.com
                                  Message 16 of 28 , Aug 4, 2005
                                    Never read them, though they sound intriguing...
                                    Saje Williams
                                    Author of the Infinity: Earth Saga
                                    Book I "Loki's Sin" available now
                                    http://www.wingsepress.com OR
                                    http://www.sajewilliams.com
                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                    From: Yvette
                                    To: fantasyfictiondungeon@yahoogroups.com
                                    Sent: Thursday, August 04, 2005 7:37 PM
                                    Subject: Re: [Fantasy Fiction Dungeon] Discussion


                                    Saje that is why I liked the coldfire triology by freidman, It was
                                    different on all levels. I came before the vampire mainstream came
                                    into commonality.Yve

                                    --- In fantasyfictiondungeon@yahoogroups.com, "Saje" <soulsaje@c...>
                                    wrote:
                                    > Tastes differ, that's for sure.
                                    >
                                    > I've already stated my preference for originality. Bishop's
                                    series can literally be compared to nothing else I've ever
                                    read...that recommends it very highly in my book.
                                    >
                                    > Besides...there's just something about a series where the heroes
                                    are scarier than the villains. <g>
                                    >
                                    > Saje Williams
                                    > Author of the Infinity: Earth Saga
                                    > Book I "Loki's Sin" available now
                                    > http://www.wingsepress.com OR
                                    > http://www.sajewilliams.com
                                    > ----- Original Message -----
                                    > From: karl barnes
                                    > To: fantasyfictiondungeon@yahoogroups.com
                                    > Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 5:32 PM
                                    > Subject: Re: [Fantasy Fiction Dungeon] Discussion
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Love Hobbs and yes, I have read "Black Jewels" trilogy though I
                                    don't think that it is the best fantasy series in ages. It'll
                                    definitely do as a series that I'll highly recommend.
                                    >
                                    > Saje <soulsaje@c...> wrote:Robin Hobb's good, come to think of
                                    it.
                                    >
                                    > Have you tried Anne Bishop? Has anyone here tried the "Black
                                    Jewels?"
                                    >
                                    > Truly the best fantasy series in ages. Bar none.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Saje Williams
                                    > Author of the Infinity: Earth Saga
                                    > Book I "Loki's Sin" available now
                                    > http://www.wingsepress.com OR
                                    > http://www.sajewilliams.com
                                    > ----- Original Message -----
                                    > From: Matt
                                    > To: fantasyfictiondungeon@yahoogroups.com
                                    > Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 3:39 PM
                                    > Subject: Re: [Fantasy Fiction Dungeon] Discussion
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > I get bogged down sometimes, too, always searching for
                                    something
                                    > fresh to digest. Everyone left Robin Hobb off their list and
                                    J.V.
                                    > Jones, who are about 10 years into their respective writing
                                    careers.
                                    > Nothing really new from either of those lately. I thought the
                                    > Farseer books were really well done and her writing ranks up
                                    there
                                    > with Tad Williams as far as it's freshness and lyrical ease.
                                    >
                                    > Another current would be Elizabeth Haydon, i suppose and Sara
                                    > Douglas.
                                    >
                                    > I always read David Gemmell. There's nothing like a quick kick
                                    to
                                    > your face to get you energized. That's how his books are.
                                    Fast,
                                    > furious, no dilly dallying. He has mastered the art of the
                                    anti-hero
                                    > and the epic hero as well. That's hard to do.
                                    >
                                    > I do like Dave Duncan's Kings Blades books. I will always love
                                    his
                                    > Magic Casement and A Man of His Word series. One of the best,
                                    fun,
                                    > exciting series i've read in a long time. I think they're
                                    pretty
                                    > much out of print now, but worth reading if you can find them.
                                    > They're fun. Nothing serious. Just fun. And the magic system
                                    he came
                                    > up with was ingenious, in my opinion. It was so simple but
                                    sensible
                                    > that I wish everyone can be that in their writing. His
                                    Swordsman
                                    > Trilogy was also good. One of my favorites until i read the
                                    Magic
                                    > Casement stuff.
                                    >
                                    > Sean McMullen, for the uninitiated, writes some very time
                                    spanning,
                                    > epic science fiction from the land down under. He's published
                                    here
                                    > now and has started a very good fantasy series. His sci
                                    fiction is
                                    > grandiose but well honed. Souls in the Great Machine is his
                                    first, i
                                    > think. Very readable and ooh, ahhh kind of stuff.
                                    >
                                    > As for Anderson, I think his Seven Suns series is very good
                                    which
                                    > i'm reading now. It's space opera so not serious. Haven't read
                                    any
                                    > of the Star Wars stuff.
                                    >
                                    > Another honorable mention would be L.E. Modesitt, Jr.'s
                                    Recluce
                                    > books. I'm reading Wellspring of Chaos right now, which gets
                                    back
                                    > more to a character driven aspect than the last few books,
                                    which
                                    > were political in nature and kind of dry. His whole
                                    Chaos/Order
                                    > mythos could be an encylopedia by itself. I'm surprised
                                    someone
                                    > hasn't written one, much like the Guide to Middle Earth, Guide
                                    to
                                    > the Wheel of time, Guide to the Land, Guide to Narnia, etc.
                                    >
                                    > I am reading some of Mercedes Lackey's stuff, notably Joust. I
                                    read
                                    > her first Bardic Voices book, which i loved right up to the
                                    point in
                                    > which in degenerated into cliche driven romantic muck at the
                                    end
                                    > that didn't mesh with what she had written the last 200 pages.
                                    I was
                                    > disappointed. I'm reading It Takes A Thief and also have
                                    Exiles
                                    > Honor to read. She borders on brilliant, but has flashes of
                                    > jingoistic juvenilia on the tip of her fingers sometimes, too.
                                    >
                                    > I highly recommend Summerland by Michael Chabon. Excellent
                                    book.
                                    > That should have been on my list, too. Anyone that can switch
                                    genres
                                    > from Pulitzer, National Book Award type stuff like Kavalier
                                    and Clay
                                    > was to a magical kids book about baseball and "pixies" has to
                                    be one
                                    > hell of a writer.
                                    >
                                    > I always loved Thieves World, Asprin's Myth books, Piers
                                    Anthony
                                    > Xanth books, up to Man from Mundania, i think. And Terry
                                    Pratchett
                                    > is starting to grow on me and i'm rereading Douglas Adams'
                                    stuff,
                                    > too. I can't wait until Hitchhiker's Guide comes out on DVD
                                    next
                                    > month. Some people hated it, but i loved the movie. They
                                    captured
                                    > the spirit of the books, which is all that i could have hoped
                                    for.
                                    >
                                    > Hmmm. For a good scifi jaunt, read David Brin's Kiln People
                                    book.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > --- In fantasyfictiondungeon@yahoogroups.com, "Saje"
                                    <soulsaje@c...>
                                    > wrote:
                                    > > I have to admit I've gotten a little bored with the epic
                                    fantasy
                                    > stuff. I really enjoyed both Jordan and Martin...for a time.
                                    But
                                    > when each book of Jordan's started ending without any sort of
                                    real
                                    > resolution to that novel's storylines, I got just a little fed
                                    up.
                                    > >
                                    > > I'll probably catch up with Martin when he's finished. He's
                                    the
                                    > kind of writer I'd just prefer to wait to read. I really
                                    enjoyed
                                    > the first novel.
                                    > >
                                    > > I didn't get into Goodkind. I can't say why, exactly. It's
                                    been
                                    > a while since I read the first book, but I didn't feel caught
                                    on
                                    > fire by what he's doing.
                                    > >
                                    > > Frankly, I think Anne Bishop's Black Jewels series blows
                                    > everything all three have written right out of the water.
                                    Something
                                    > OTHER than epic fantasy really struck me where I live. Put it
                                    to
                                    > you this way--I have never read a fantasy of any kind that you
                                    can
                                    > compare it to. It's original.
                                    > >
                                    > > Kinda like mine own, come to think of it. One question I
                                    cannot
                                    > answer is "who would you compare your work to?"
                                    > > I can't think of single good example, though I do play with
                                    > concepts that should be familiar to everyone. But my voice,
                                    and the
                                    > total picture, is like nothing else you've ever read.
                                    > >
                                    > > I'd LOVE to be the next big thing...but I think it's more
                                    likely
                                    > that I'll be the next next big thing, if it happens at all.
                                    > >
                                    > > Stackpole is a possibility. I'm not sure about
                                    McMullen...don't
                                    > recognize the name right off. I've never been that big a fan
                                    of
                                    > Anderson. Even his Star Wars books never had quite the kick
                                    to me
                                    > as Zahn, Stackpole, or even Aaron Allston.
                                    > >
                                    > > Maybe I'm just burned out on the Epic stuff. I cut my teeth
                                    on
                                    > LOTR and then Weiss and Hickman's Dragonlance, Guardians of
                                    the
                                    > Flame (Joel Rosenberg), Feist's Rift War series, and the
                                    Elenium and
                                    > Belgariad by Eddings. And then you've got Lackey's stuff,
                                    which
                                    > varies a bit in quality, in my opinion. My favorite of the
                                    Valdemar
                                    > books will always be her "Queen's Own" trilogy, personally.
                                    > >
                                    > > But I always also really liked Glen Cook's Black Company and
                                    > Garret P.I. books, , and Jennifer Robeson's Tiger and Del
                                    series.
                                    > Not epic fantasy, but something of their own.
                                    > >
                                    > > I put both Gemmel's works and Elizabeth Moon's Paksennarion
                                    books
                                    > in the "heroic" category, following and very much improving on
                                    the
                                    > traditions of Robert E. Howard.
                                    > >
                                    > > Hell, and then you got Donaldson's "anti-heroic" Chronicles
                                    of
                                    > Thomas Covenant.
                                    > >
                                    > > All of these voices have brought something unique to the
                                    fantasy
                                    > field.
                                    > >
                                    > > But, I reiterate, I'd pretty much burned out on the epic
                                    stuff.
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > Saje Williams
                                    > > Author of the Infinity: Earth Saga
                                    > > Book I "Loki's Sin" available now
                                    > > http://www.wingsepress.com OR
                                    > > http://www.sajewilliams.com
                                    > > ----- Original Message -----
                                    > > From: Matt
                                    > > To: fantasyfictiondungeon@yahoogroups.com
                                    > > Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2005 9:10 AM
                                    > > Subject: [Fantasy Fiction Dungeon] Discussion
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > Okay, i'm going to throw a hand grenade and see what comes
                                    to
                                    > the
                                    > > surface.
                                    > >
                                    > > What are the fundamental differences between Robert
                                    Jordan,
                                    > George
                                    > > Martin, and Terry Goodkind?
                                    > >
                                    > > They all write long, unending epic novels with tons of
                                    world
                                    > > building, a cast of thousands, and meandering plots that
                                    are
                                    > more
                                    > > convoluted than a Gordian knot. Why do we keep buying
                                    these
                                    > things?
                                    > > And is there some formula inherent in their makeup that
                                    they
                                    > must
                                    > > follow?
                                    > >
                                    > > I'm just curious. I stop reading Jordan at Path of
                                    Daggers,
                                    > which
                                    > > i'm halfway through. Martin, i got tired of waiting for A
                                    Feast
                                    > of
                                    > > Crows to come forth after waiting 5 years after Storm of
                                    Swords
                                    > was
                                    > > published. And Terry Goodkind cranks his out every year,
                                    like
                                    > > clockwork. Or every 14 to 16 months, depending.
                                    > >
                                    > > Is it time for a new torch to be passed to someone else,
                                    say
                                    > Michael
                                    > > Stackpole, Sean McMullen, Kevin Anderson, to name a few?
                                    > >
                                    > > I only say this because it's cyclic. When i was in
                                    highschool,
                                    > Terry
                                    > > Brooks, David Eddings, Tracy Hickman and Margaret Weis
                                    were the
                                    > > novelists of the moment.
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
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                                  • Matt
                                    Well, some writers do, do that. It s their right, especially when they have an audience for their world view. John Grisham does it, Tom Clancy does it, Dan
                                    Message 17 of 28 , Aug 5, 2005
                                      Well, some writers do, do that. It's their right, especially when
                                      they have an audience for their world view. John Grisham does it,
                                      Tom Clancy does it, Dan Simmons does it. From Shakespeare, to
                                      Jonathan Swift, to Dickens, to Steinbeck, to Hemingway to Jonathan
                                      Lethem, you can't get away from it. It's why alot of people write.


                                      --- In fantasyfictiondungeon@yahoogroups.com, karl barnes
                                      <priestvyrce@y...> wrote:
                                      > I read his first novel, King Rat, which is a wonderful
                                      continuation of the Pied Piper story with some intersting twists.
                                      BUT his preaching(and that is what it was) at the end of the story
                                      kind of put me off a bit.
                                      >
                                      > Matt <gauvaine@y...> wrote:Unfortunately or fortunately, China
                                      Mieville is the darling of the
                                      > British literary elite right now, as well as members of the
                                      > Socialist political establishment over there, being he was very
                                      > close to being an MP for the Socialist Alliance. His left wing
                                      > mantra is a large part of his writing. Everything has a very
                                      > Dickensian aura over everything, as far as the gloom and
                                      industrial
                                      > harshness of cities.
                                      >
                                      > Not that that is wrong. His concepts are very surreal and weird,
                                      and
                                      > he does it on purpose, as he's said that he's looking for a real,
                                      > anti-Tolkien, Lovecraftian feel to things to get away from the
                                      > standard tropes and cliches we've been saddled with. And, of
                                      course,
                                      > political bent is inherent in any person's writing, whether they
                                      > know they're doing it or not.
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > --- In fantasyfictiondungeon@yahoogroups.com, "Saje"
                                      <soulsaje@c...>
                                      > wrote:
                                      > > Perdido Street Station threw me off when I realized what the
                                      > protagonist's girlfriend was...it was, to me, just weird for the
                                      > sake of weird. It really turned me off.
                                      > >
                                      > > And I actually got almost a hundred pages into "The Scar" but I
                                      > found it rather boring.
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > Saje Williams
                                      > > Author of the Infinity: Earth Saga
                                      > > Book I "Loki's Sin" available now
                                      > > http://www.wingsepress.com OR
                                      > > http://www.sajewilliams.com
                                      > > ----- Original Message -----
                                      > > From: Matt
                                      > > To: fantasyfictiondungeon@yahoogroups.com
                                      > > Sent: Thursday, August 04, 2005 12:12 PM
                                      > > Subject: Re: [Fantasy Fiction Dungeon] Discussion
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > Funny thing. I started reading Perdido Street Station and the
                                      > Scar,
                                      > > as well. I don't really know what to think, at this point.
                                      It's
                                      > like
                                      > > reading a stylized version of Dark City and City of Lost
                                      > Children
                                      > > rolled into Zelazny's Amber stuff. In other words, something
                                      > very
                                      > > weird and surreal, like you said.
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > --- In fantasyfictiondungeon@yahoogroups.com, "Saje"
                                      > <soulsaje@c...>
                                      > > wrote:
                                      > > > I'll keep the name in mind. Can you tell me a little about
                                      it.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > I have to say that if it's too surreal, oh...what's that
                                      > brit's
                                      > > name...China Melville or something like that?
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Can't stand it. Either boring or weird. Disjointed in an
                                      odd
                                      > > way. I can handle more surreal sci-fi than fantasy, oddly
                                      > enough.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > If that makes any sense at all...
                                      > > > Saje Williams
                                      > > > Author of the Infinity: Earth Saga
                                      > > > Book I "Loki's Sin" available now
                                      > > > http://www.wingsepress.com OR
                                      > > > http://www.sajewilliams.com
                                      > > > ----- Original Message -----
                                      > > > From: karl barnes
                                      > > > To: fantasyfictiondungeon@yahoogroups.com
                                      > > > Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 8:32 PM
                                      > > > Subject: Re: [Fantasy Fiction Dungeon] Discussion
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Carol Berg's "Transformation" and "Restoration" are two
                                      > pretty
                                      > > unique novels. If you haven't tried them, I suggest that you
                                      do.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Saje <soulsaje@c...> wrote:Tastes differ, that's for sure.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > I've already stated my preference for originality.
                                      Bishop's
                                      > > series can literally be compared to nothing else I've ever
                                      > > read...that recommends it very highly in my book.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Besides...there's just something about a series where the
                                      > heroes
                                      > > are scarier than the villains. <g>
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Saje Williams
                                      > > > Author of the Infinity: Earth Saga
                                      > > > Book I "Loki's Sin" available now
                                      > > > http://www.wingsepress.com OR
                                      > > > http://www.sajewilliams.com
                                      > > > ----- Original Message -----
                                      > > > From: karl barnes
                                      > > > To: fantasyfictiondungeon@yahoogroups.com
                                      > > > Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 5:32 PM
                                      > > > Subject: Re: [Fantasy Fiction Dungeon] Discussion
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Love Hobbs and yes, I have read "Black Jewels" trilogy
                                      > though
                                      > > I don't think that it is the best fantasy series in ages.
                                      It'll
                                      > > definitely do as a series that I'll highly recommend.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Saje <soulsaje@c...> wrote:Robin Hobb's good, come to
                                      > think of
                                      > > it.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Have you tried Anne Bishop? Has anyone here tried
                                      > the "Black
                                      > > Jewels?"
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Truly the best fantasy series in ages. Bar none.
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Saje Williams
                                      > > > Author of the Infinity: Earth Saga
                                      > > > Book I "Loki's Sin" available now
                                      > > > http://www.wingsepress.com OR
                                      > > > http://www.sajewilliams.com
                                      > > > ----- Original Message -----
                                      > > > From: Matt
                                      > > > To: fantasyfictiondungeon@yahoogroups.com
                                      > > > Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 3:39 PM
                                      > > > Subject: Re: [Fantasy Fiction Dungeon] Discussion
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > > I get bogged down sometimes, too, always searching for
                                      > > something
                                      > > > fresh to digest. Everyone left Robin Hobb off their
                                      list
                                      > and
                                      > > J.V.
                                      > > > Jones, who are about 10 years into their respective
                                      > writing
                                      > > careers.
                                      > > > Nothing really new from either of those lately. I
                                      > thought
                                      > > the
                                      > > > Farseer books were really well done and her writing
                                      > ranks up
                                      > > there
                                      > > > with Tad Williams as far as it's freshness and lyrical
                                      > ease.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Another current would be Elizabeth Haydon, i suppose
                                      and
                                      > > Sara
                                      > > > Douglas.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > I always read David Gemmell. There's nothing like a
                                      > quick
                                      > > kick to
                                      > > > your face to get you energized. That's how his books
                                      > are.
                                      > > Fast,
                                      > > > furious, no dilly dallying. He has mastered the art of
                                      > the
                                      > > anti-hero
                                      > > > and the epic hero as well. That's hard to do.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > I do like Dave Duncan's Kings Blades books. I will
                                      > always
                                      > > love his
                                      > > > Magic Casement and A Man of His Word series. One of
                                      the
                                      > > best, fun,
                                      > > > exciting series i've read in a long time. I think
                                      > they're
                                      > > pretty
                                      > > > much out of print now, but worth reading if you can
                                      find
                                      > > them.
                                      > > > They're fun. Nothing serious. Just fun. And the magic
                                      > system
                                      > > he came
                                      > > > up with was ingenious, in my opinion. It was so simple
                                      > but
                                      > > sensible
                                      > > > that I wish everyone can be that in their writing. His
                                      > > Swordsman
                                      > > > Trilogy was also good. One of my favorites until i
                                      read
                                      > the
                                      > > Magic
                                      > > > Casement stuff.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Sean McMullen, for the uninitiated, writes some very
                                      > time
                                      > > spanning,
                                      > > > epic science fiction from the land down under. He's
                                      > > published here
                                      > > > now and has started a very good fantasy series. His
                                      sci
                                      > > fiction is
                                      > > > grandiose but well honed. Souls in the Great Machine
                                      is
                                      > his
                                      > > first, i
                                      > > > think. Very readable and ooh, ahhh kind of stuff.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > As for Anderson, I think his Seven Suns series is very
                                      > good
                                      > > which
                                      > > > i'm reading now. It's space opera so not serious.
                                      > Haven't
                                      > > read any
                                      > > > of the Star Wars stuff.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Another honorable mention would be L.E. Modesitt,
                                      Jr.'s
                                      > > Recluce
                                      > > > books. I'm reading Wellspring of Chaos right now,
                                      which
                                      > gets
                                      > > back
                                      > > > more to a character driven aspect than the last few
                                      > books,
                                      > > which
                                      > > > were political in nature and kind of dry. His whole
                                      > > Chaos/Order
                                      > > > mythos could be an encylopedia by itself. I'm
                                      surprised
                                      > > someone
                                      > > > hasn't written one, much like the Guide to Middle
                                      Earth,
                                      > > Guide to
                                      > > > the Wheel of time, Guide to the Land, Guide to Narnia,
                                      > etc.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > I am reading some of Mercedes Lackey's stuff, notably
                                      > Joust.
                                      > > I read
                                      > > > her first Bardic Voices book, which i loved right up
                                      to
                                      > the
                                      > > point in
                                      > > > which in degenerated into cliche driven romantic muck
                                      at
                                      > the
                                      > > end
                                      > > > that didn't mesh with what she had written the last
                                      200
                                      > > pages. I was
                                      > > > disappointed. I'm reading It Takes A Thief and also
                                      have
                                      > > Exiles
                                      > > > Honor to read. She borders on brilliant, but has
                                      flashes
                                      > of
                                      > > > jingoistic juvenilia on the tip of her fingers
                                      > sometimes,
                                      > > too.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > I highly recommend Summerland by Michael Chabon.
                                      > Excellent
                                      > > book.
                                      > > > That should have been on my list, too. Anyone that can
                                      > > switch genres
                                      > > > from Pulitzer, National Book Award type stuff like
                                      > Kavalier
                                      > > and Clay
                                      > > > was to a magical kids book about baseball and "pixies"
                                      > has
                                      > > to be one
                                      > > > hell of a writer.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > I always loved Thieves World, Asprin's Myth books,
                                      Piers
                                      > > Anthony
                                      > > > Xanth books, up to Man from Mundania, i think. And
                                      Terry
                                      > > Pratchett
                                      > > > is starting to grow on me and i'm rereading Douglas
                                      > Adams'
                                      > > stuff,
                                      > > > too. I can't wait until Hitchhiker's Guide comes out
                                      on
                                      > DVD
                                      > > next
                                      > > > month. Some people hated it, but i loved the movie.
                                      They
                                      > > captured
                                      > > > the spirit of the books, which is all that i could
                                      have
                                      > > hoped for.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Hmmm. For a good scifi jaunt, read David Brin's Kiln
                                      > People
                                      > > book.
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > > --- In fantasyfictiondungeon@yahoogroups.com, "Saje"
                                      > > <soulsaje@c...>
                                      > > > wrote:
                                      > > > > I have to admit I've gotten a little bored with the
                                      > epic
                                      > > fantasy
                                      > > > stuff. I really enjoyed both Jordan and Martin...for
                                      a
                                      > > time. But
                                      > > > when each book of Jordan's started ending without any
                                      > sort
                                      > > of real
                                      > > > resolution to that novel's storylines, I got just a
                                      > little
                                      > > fed up.
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > I'll probably catch up with Martin when he's
                                      > finished.
                                      > > He's the
                                      > > > kind of writer I'd just prefer to wait to read. I
                                      > really
                                      > > enjoyed
                                      > > > the first novel.
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > I didn't get into Goodkind. I can't say why,
                                      > exactly.
                                      > > It's been
                                      > > > a while since I read the first book, but I didn't feel
                                      > > caught on
                                      > > > fire by what he's doing.
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > Frankly, I think Anne Bishop's Black Jewels series
                                      > blows
                                      > > > everything all three have written right out of the
                                      > water.
                                      > > Something
                                      > > > OTHER than epic fantasy really struck me where I
                                      live.
                                      > Put
                                      > > it to
                                      > > > you this way--I have never read a fantasy of any kind
                                      > that
                                      > > you can
                                      > > > compare it to. It's original.
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > Kinda like mine own, come to think of it. One
                                      > question I
                                      > > cannot
                                      > > > answer is "who would you compare your work to?"
                                      > > > > I can't think of single good example, though I do
                                      play
                                      > > with
                                      > > > concepts that should be familiar to everyone. But my
                                      > voice,
                                      > > and the
                                      > > > total picture, is like nothing else you've ever read.
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > I'd LOVE to be the next big thing...but I think it's
                                      > more
                                      > > likely
                                      > > > that I'll be the next next big thing, if it happens at
                                      > all.
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > Stackpole is a possibility. I'm not sure about
                                      > > McMullen...don't
                                      > > > recognize the name right off. I've never been that
                                      big
                                      > a
                                      > > fan of
                                      > > > Anderson. Even his Star Wars books never had quite
                                      the
                                      > kick
                                      > > to me
                                      > > > as Zahn, Stackpole, or even Aaron Allston.
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > Maybe I'm just burned out on the Epic stuff. I cut
                                      my
                                      > > teeth on
                                      > > > LOTR and then Weiss and Hickman's Dragonlance,
                                      Guardians
                                      > of
                                      > > the
                                      > > > Flame (Joel Rosenberg), Feist's Rift War series, and
                                      the
                                      > > Elenium and
                                      > > > Belgariad by Eddings. And then you've got Lackey's
                                      > stuff,
                                      > > which
                                      > > > varies a bit in quality, in my opinion. My favorite
                                      of
                                      > the
                                      > > Valdemar
                                      > > > books will always be her "Queen's Own" trilogy,
                                      > personally.
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > But I always also really liked Glen Cook's Black
                                      > Company
                                      > > and
                                      > > > Garret P.I. books, , and Jennifer Robeson's Tiger and
                                      > Del
                                      > > series.
                                      > > > Not epic fantasy, but something of their own.
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > I put both Gemmel's works and Elizabeth Moon's
                                      > > Paksennarion books
                                      > > > in the "heroic" category, following and very much
                                      > improving
                                      > > on the
                                      > > > traditions of Robert E. Howard.
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > Hell, and then you got Donaldson's "anti-heroic"
                                      > > Chronicles of
                                      > > > Thomas Covenant.
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > All of these voices have brought something unique to
                                      > the
                                      > > fantasy
                                      > > > field.
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > But, I reiterate, I'd pretty much burned out on the
                                      > epic
                                      > > stuff.
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > Saje Williams
                                      > > > > Author of the Infinity: Earth Saga
                                      > > > > Book I "Loki's Sin" available now
                                      > > > > http://www.wingsepress.com OR
                                      > > > > http://www.sajewilliams.com
                                      > > > > ----- Original Message -----
                                      > > > > From: Matt
                                      > > > > To: fantasyfictiondungeon@yahoogroups.com
                                      > > > > Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2005 9:10 AM
                                      > > > > Subject: [Fantasy Fiction Dungeon] Discussion
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > Okay, i'm going to throw a hand grenade and see
                                      what
                                      > > comes to
                                      > > > the
                                      > > > > surface.
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > What are the fundamental differences between
                                      Robert
                                      > > Jordan,
                                      > > > George
                                      > > > > Martin, and Terry Goodkind?
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > They all write long, unending epic novels with
                                      tons
                                      > of
                                      > > world
                                      > > > > building, a cast of thousands, and meandering
                                      plots
                                      > that
                                      > > are
                                      > > > more
                                      > > > > convoluted than a Gordian knot. Why do we keep
                                      > buying
                                      > > these
                                      > > > things?
                                      > > > > And is there some formula inherent in their makeup
                                      > that
                                      > > they
                                      > > > must
                                      > > > > follow?
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > I'm just curious. I stop reading Jordan at Path of
                                      > > Daggers,
                                      > > > which
                                      > > > > i'm halfway through. Martin, i got tired of
                                      waiting
                                      > for
                                      > > A Feast
                                      > > > of
                                      > > > > Crows to come forth after waiting 5 years after
                                      > Storm of
                                      > > Swords
                                      > > > was
                                      > > > > published. And Terry Goodkind cranks his out every
                                      > year,
                                      > > like
                                      > > > > clockwork. Or every 14 to 16 months, depending.
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > Is it time for a new torch to be passed to someone
                                      > else,
                                      > > say
                                      > > > Michael
                                      > > > > Stackpole, Sean McMullen, Kevin Anderson, to name
                                      a
                                      > few?
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > I only say this because it's cyclic. When i was in
                                      > > highschool,
                                      > > > Terry
                                      > > > > Brooks, David Eddings, Tracy Hickman and Margaret
                                      > Weis
                                      > > were the
                                      > > > > novelists of the moment.
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > >
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                                    • karl barnes
                                      I don t mind it, it was just that Mieville s ending to King Rat came off as heavy handed. He almost hits you over the head with his beliefs and also, it really
                                      Message 18 of 28 , Aug 5, 2005
                                        I don't mind it, it was just that Mieville's ending to King Rat came off as heavy handed. He almost hits you over the head with his beliefs and also, it really was out of character, in a way. Not that it didn't show that the character had these leanings, but came off as a poor man's Lenin. It wasn't the message, but how it was delivered.

                                        Matt <gauvaine@...> wrote:Well, some writers do, do that. It's their right, especially when
                                        they have an audience for their world view. John Grisham does it,
                                        Tom Clancy does it, Dan Simmons does it. From Shakespeare, to
                                        Jonathan Swift, to Dickens, to Steinbeck, to Hemingway to Jonathan
                                        Lethem, you can't get away from it. It's why alot of people write.


                                        --- In fantasyfictiondungeon@yahoogroups.com, karl barnes
                                        <priestvyrce@y...> wrote:
                                        > I read his first novel, King Rat, which is a wonderful
                                        continuation of the Pied Piper story with some intersting twists.
                                        BUT his preaching(and that is what it was) at the end of the story
                                        kind of put me off a bit.
                                        >
                                        > Matt <gauvaine@y...> wrote:Unfortunately or fortunately, China
                                        Mieville is the darling of the
                                        > British literary elite right now, as well as members of the
                                        > Socialist political establishment over there, being he was very
                                        > close to being an MP for the Socialist Alliance. His left wing
                                        > mantra is a large part of his writing. Everything has a very
                                        > Dickensian aura over everything, as far as the gloom and
                                        industrial
                                        > harshness of cities.
                                        >
                                        > Not that that is wrong. His concepts are very surreal and weird,
                                        and
                                        > he does it on purpose, as he's said that he's looking for a real,
                                        > anti-Tolkien, Lovecraftian feel to things to get away from the
                                        > standard tropes and cliches we've been saddled with. And, of
                                        course,
                                        > political bent is inherent in any person's writing, whether they
                                        > know they're doing it or not.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > --- In fantasyfictiondungeon@yahoogroups.com, "Saje"
                                        <soulsaje@c...>
                                        > wrote:
                                        > > Perdido Street Station threw me off when I realized what the
                                        > protagonist's girlfriend was...it was, to me, just weird for the
                                        > sake of weird. It really turned me off.
                                        > >
                                        > > And I actually got almost a hundred pages into "The Scar" but I
                                        > found it rather boring.
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > Saje Williams
                                        > > Author of the Infinity: Earth Saga
                                        > > Book I "Loki's Sin" available now
                                        > > http://www.wingsepress.com OR
                                        > > http://www.sajewilliams.com
                                        > > ----- Original Message -----
                                        > > From: Matt
                                        > > To: fantasyfictiondungeon@yahoogroups.com
                                        > > Sent: Thursday, August 04, 2005 12:12 PM
                                        > > Subject: Re: [Fantasy Fiction Dungeon] Discussion
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > Funny thing. I started reading Perdido Street Station and the
                                        > Scar,
                                        > > as well. I don't really know what to think, at this point.
                                        It's
                                        > like
                                        > > reading a stylized version of Dark City and City of Lost
                                        > Children
                                        > > rolled into Zelazny's Amber stuff. In other words, something
                                        > very
                                        > > weird and surreal, like you said.
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > --- In fantasyfictiondungeon@yahoogroups.com, "Saje"
                                        > <soulsaje@c...>
                                        > > wrote:
                                        > > > I'll keep the name in mind. Can you tell me a little about
                                        it.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > I have to say that if it's too surreal, oh...what's that
                                        > brit's
                                        > > name...China Melville or something like that?
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Can't stand it. Either boring or weird. Disjointed in an
                                        odd
                                        > > way. I can handle more surreal sci-fi than fantasy, oddly
                                        > enough.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > If that makes any sense at all...
                                        > > > Saje Williams
                                        > > > Author of the Infinity: Earth Saga
                                        > > > Book I "Loki's Sin" available now
                                        > > > http://www.wingsepress.com OR
                                        > > > http://www.sajewilliams.com
                                        > > > ----- Original Message -----
                                        > > > From: karl barnes
                                        > > > To: fantasyfictiondungeon@yahoogroups.com
                                        > > > Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 8:32 PM
                                        > > > Subject: Re: [Fantasy Fiction Dungeon] Discussion
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Carol Berg's "Transformation" and "Restoration" are two
                                        > pretty
                                        > > unique novels. If you haven't tried them, I suggest that you
                                        do.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Saje <soulsaje@c...> wrote:Tastes differ, that's for sure.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > I've already stated my preference for originality.
                                        Bishop's
                                        > > series can literally be compared to nothing else I've ever
                                        > > read...that recommends it very highly in my book.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Besides...there's just something about a series where the
                                        > heroes
                                        > > are scarier than the villains. <g>
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Saje Williams
                                        > > > Author of the Infinity: Earth Saga
                                        > > > Book I "Loki's Sin" available now
                                        > > > http://www.wingsepress.com OR
                                        > > > http://www.sajewilliams.com
                                        > > > ----- Original Message -----
                                        > > > From: karl barnes
                                        > > > To: fantasyfictiondungeon@yahoogroups.com
                                        > > > Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 5:32 PM
                                        > > > Subject: Re: [Fantasy Fiction Dungeon] Discussion
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Love Hobbs and yes, I have read "Black Jewels" trilogy
                                        > though
                                        > > I don't think that it is the best fantasy series in ages.
                                        It'll
                                        > > definitely do as a series that I'll highly recommend.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Saje <soulsaje@c...> wrote:Robin Hobb's good, come to
                                        > think of
                                        > > it.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Have you tried Anne Bishop? Has anyone here tried
                                        > the "Black
                                        > > Jewels?"
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Truly the best fantasy series in ages. Bar none.
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Saje Williams
                                        > > > Author of the Infinity: Earth Saga
                                        > > > Book I "Loki's Sin" available now
                                        > > > http://www.wingsepress.com OR
                                        > > > http://www.sajewilliams.com
                                        > > > ----- Original Message -----
                                        > > > From: Matt
                                        > > > To: fantasyfictiondungeon@yahoogroups.com
                                        > > > Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 3:39 PM
                                        > > > Subject: Re: [Fantasy Fiction Dungeon] Discussion
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > > I get bogged down sometimes, too, always searching for
                                        > > something
                                        > > > fresh to digest. Everyone left Robin Hobb off their
                                        list
                                        > and
                                        > > J.V.
                                        > > > Jones, who are about 10 years into their respective
                                        > writing
                                        > > careers.
                                        > > > Nothing really new from either of those lately. I
                                        > thought
                                        > > the
                                        > > > Farseer books were really well done and her writing
                                        > ranks up
                                        > > there
                                        > > > with Tad Williams as far as it's freshness and lyrical
                                        > ease.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Another current would be Elizabeth Haydon, i suppose
                                        and
                                        > > Sara
                                        > > > Douglas.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > I always read David Gemmell. There's nothing like a
                                        > quick
                                        > > kick to
                                        > > > your face to get you energized. That's how his books
                                        > are.
                                        > > Fast,
                                        > > > furious, no dilly dallying. He has mastered the art of
                                        > the
                                        > > anti-hero
                                        > > > and the epic hero as well. That's hard to do.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > I do like Dave Duncan's Kings Blades books. I will
                                        > always
                                        > > love his
                                        > > > Magic Casement and A Man of His Word series. One of
                                        the
                                        > > best, fun,
                                        > > > exciting series i've read in a long time. I think
                                        > they're
                                        > > pretty
                                        > > > much out of print now, but worth reading if you can
                                        find
                                        > > them.
                                        > > > They're fun. Nothing serious. Just fun. And the magic
                                        > system
                                        > > he came
                                        > > > up with was ingenious, in my opinion. It was so simple
                                        > but
                                        > > sensible
                                        > > > that I wish everyone can be that in their writing. His
                                        > > Swordsman
                                        > > > Trilogy was also good. One of my favorites until i
                                        read
                                        > the
                                        > > Magic
                                        > > > Casement stuff.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Sean McMullen, for the uninitiated, writes some very
                                        > time
                                        > > spanning,
                                        > > > epic science fiction from the land down under. He's
                                        > > published here
                                        > > > now and has started a very good fantasy series. His
                                        sci
                                        > > fiction is
                                        > > > grandiose but well honed. Souls in the Great Machine
                                        is
                                        > his
                                        > > first, i
                                        > > > think. Very readable and ooh, ahhh kind of stuff.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > As for Anderson, I think his Seven Suns series is very
                                        > good
                                        > > which
                                        > > > i'm reading now. It's space opera so not serious.
                                        > Haven't
                                        > > read any
                                        > > > of the Star Wars stuff.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Another honorable mention would be L.E. Modesitt,
                                        Jr.'s
                                        > > Recluce
                                        > > > books. I'm reading Wellspring of Chaos right now,
                                        which
                                        > gets
                                        > > back
                                        > > > more to a character driven aspect than the last few
                                        > books,
                                        > > which
                                        > > > were political in nature and kind of dry. His whole
                                        > > Chaos/Order
                                        > > > mythos could be an encylopedia by itself. I'm
                                        surprised
                                        > > someone
                                        > > > hasn't written one, much like the Guide to Middle
                                        Earth,
                                        > > Guide to
                                        > > > the Wheel of time, Guide to the Land, Guide to Narnia,
                                        > etc.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > I am reading some of Mercedes Lackey's stuff, notably
                                        > Joust.
                                        > > I read
                                        > > > her first Bardic Voices book, which i loved right up
                                        to
                                        > the
                                        > > point in
                                        > > > which in degenerated into cliche driven romantic muck
                                        at
                                        > the
                                        > > end
                                        > > > that didn't mesh with what she had written the last
                                        200
                                        > > pages. I was
                                        > > > disappointed. I'm reading It Takes A Thief and also
                                        have
                                        > > Exiles
                                        > > > Honor to read. She borders on brilliant, but has
                                        flashes
                                        > of
                                        > > > jingoistic juvenilia on the tip of her fingers
                                        > sometimes,
                                        > > too.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > I highly recommend Summerland by Michael Chabon.
                                        > Excellent
                                        > > book.
                                        > > > That should have been on my list, too. Anyone that can
                                        > > switch genres
                                        > > > from Pulitzer, National Book Award type stuff like
                                        > Kavalier
                                        > > and Clay
                                        > > > was to a magical kids book about baseball and "pixies"
                                        > has
                                        > > to be one
                                        > > > hell of a writer.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > I always loved Thieves World, Asprin's Myth books,
                                        Piers
                                        > > Anthony
                                        > > > Xanth books, up to Man from Mundania, i think. And
                                        Terry
                                        > > Pratchett
                                        > > > is starting to grow on me and i'm rereading Douglas
                                        > Adams'
                                        > > stuff,
                                        > > > too. I can't wait until Hitchhiker's Guide comes out
                                        on
                                        > DVD
                                        > > next
                                        > > > month. Some people hated it, but i loved the movie.
                                        They
                                        > > captured
                                        > > > the spirit of the books, which is all that i could
                                        have
                                        > > hoped for.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Hmmm. For a good scifi jaunt, read David Brin's Kiln
                                        > People
                                        > > book.
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > > --- In fantasyfictiondungeon@yahoogroups.com, "Saje"
                                        > > <soulsaje@c...>
                                        > > > wrote:
                                        > > > > I have to admit I've gotten a little bored with the
                                        > epic
                                        > > fantasy
                                        > > > stuff. I really enjoyed both Jordan and Martin...for
                                        a
                                        > > time. But
                                        > > > when each book of Jordan's started ending without any
                                        > sort
                                        > > of real
                                        > > > resolution to that novel's storylines, I got just a
                                        > little
                                        > > fed up.
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > I'll probably catch up with Martin when he's
                                        > finished.
                                        > > He's the
                                        > > > kind of writer I'd just prefer to wait to read. I
                                        > really
                                        > > enjoyed
                                        > > > the first novel.
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > I didn't get into Goodkind. I can't say why,
                                        > exactly.
                                        > > It's been
                                        > > > a while since I read the first book, but I didn't feel
                                        > > caught on
                                        > > > fire by what he's doing.
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > Frankly, I think Anne Bishop's Black Jewels series
                                        > blows
                                        > > > everything all three have written right out of the
                                        > water.
                                        > > Something
                                        > > > OTHER than epic fantasy really struck me where I
                                        live.
                                        > Put
                                        > > it to
                                        > > > you this way--I have never read a fantasy of any kind
                                        > that
                                        > > you can
                                        > > > compare it to. It's original.
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > Kinda like mine own, come to think of it. One
                                        > question I
                                        > > cannot
                                        > > > answer is "who would you compare your work to?"
                                        > > > > I can't think of single good example, though I do
                                        play
                                        > > with
                                        > > > concepts that should be familiar to everyone. But my
                                        > voice,
                                        > > and the
                                        > > > total picture, is like nothing else you've ever read.
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > I'd LOVE to be the next big thing...but I think it's
                                        > more
                                        > > likely
                                        > > > that I'll be the next next big thing, if it happens at
                                        > all.
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > Stackpole is a possibility. I'm not sure about
                                        > > McMullen...don't
                                        > > > recognize the name right off. I've never been that
                                        big
                                        > a
                                        > > fan of
                                        > > > Anderson. Even his Star Wars books never had quite
                                        the
                                        > kick
                                        > > to me
                                        > > > as Zahn, Stackpole, or even Aaron Allston.
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > Maybe I'm just burned out on the Epic stuff. I cut
                                        my
                                        > > teeth on
                                        > > > LOTR and then Weiss and Hickman's Dragonlance,
                                        Guardians
                                        > of
                                        > > the
                                        > > > Flame (Joel Rosenberg), Feist's Rift War series, and
                                        the
                                        > > Elenium and
                                        > > > Belgariad by Eddings. And then you've got Lackey's
                                        > stuff,
                                        > > which
                                        > > > varies a bit in quality, in my opinion. My favorite
                                        of
                                        > the
                                        > > Valdemar
                                        > > > books will always be her "Queen's Own" trilogy,
                                        > personally.
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > But I always also really liked Glen Cook's Black
                                        > Company
                                        > > and
                                        > > > Garret P.I. books, , and Jennifer Robeson's Tiger and
                                        > Del
                                        > > series.
                                        > > > Not epic fantasy, but something of their own.
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > I put both Gemmel's works and Elizabeth Moon's
                                        > > Paksennarion books
                                        > > > in the "heroic" category, following and very much
                                        > improving
                                        > > on the
                                        > > > traditions of Robert E. Howard.
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > Hell, and then you got Donaldson's "anti-heroic"
                                        > > Chronicles of
                                        > > > Thomas Covenant.
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > All of these voices have brought something unique to
                                        > the
                                        > > fantasy
                                        > > > field.
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > But, I reiterate, I'd pretty much burned out on the
                                        > epic
                                        > > stuff.
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > Saje Williams
                                        > > > > Author of the Infinity: Earth Saga
                                        > > > > Book I "Loki's Sin" available now
                                        > > > > http://www.wingsepress.com OR
                                        > > > > http://www.sajewilliams.com
                                        > > > > ----- Original Message -----
                                        > > > > From: Matt
                                        > > > > To: fantasyfictiondungeon@yahoogroups.com
                                        > > > > Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2005 9:10 AM
                                        > > > > Subject: [Fantasy Fiction Dungeon] Discussion
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > Okay, i'm going to throw a hand grenade and see
                                        what
                                        > > comes to
                                        > > > the
                                        > > > > surface.
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > What are the fundamental differences between
                                        Robert
                                        > > Jordan,
                                        > > > George
                                        > > > > Martin, and Terry Goodkind?
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > They all write long, unending epic novels with
                                        tons
                                        > of
                                        > > world
                                        > > > > building, a cast of thousands, and meandering
                                        plots
                                        > that
                                        > > are
                                        > > > more
                                        > > > > convoluted than a Gordian knot. Why do we keep
                                        > buying
                                        > > these
                                        > > > things?
                                        > > > > And is there some formula inherent in their makeup
                                        > that
                                        > > they
                                        > > > must
                                        > > > > follow?
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > I'm just curious. I stop reading Jordan at Path of
                                        > > Daggers,
                                        > > > which
                                        > > > > i'm halfway through. Martin, i got tired of
                                        waiting
                                        > for
                                        > > A Feast
                                        > > > of
                                        > > > > Crows to come forth after waiting 5 years after
                                        > Storm of
                                        > > Swords
                                        > > > was
                                        > > > > published. And Terry Goodkind cranks his out every
                                        > year,
                                        > > like
                                        > > > > clockwork. Or every 14 to 16 months, depending.
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > Is it time for a new torch to be passed to someone
                                        > else,
                                        > > say
                                        > > > Michael
                                        > > > > Stackpole, Sean McMullen, Kevin Anderson, to name
                                        a
                                        > few?
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > I only say this because it's cyclic. When i was in
                                        > > highschool,
                                        > > > Terry
                                        > > > > Brooks, David Eddings, Tracy Hickman and Margaret
                                        > Weis
                                        > > were the
                                        > > > > novelists of the moment.
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > >
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                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      • Matt
                                        Yeah, that is always a problem, when they get heavy handed with the hyperbole demagogue club. I know it turns me off and ruins the whole length of the book
                                        Message 19 of 28 , Aug 5, 2005
                                          Yeah, that is always a problem, when they get heavy handed with the
                                          hyperbole demagogue club. I know it turns me off and ruins the whole
                                          length of the book that came before. I'm trying to think on
                                          something that had done that to me recently but nothing comes to
                                          mind.

                                          I think Jennifer Government is the closest thing i can state that
                                          was so blatantly biased and a political rant disguised as fiction;
                                          too bad it was bad fiction that really didn't go anywhere. Corporate
                                          greed and unilateral comingling of corporate power renders
                                          governments obsolete and powerless, with everyone that is not part
                                          of the apparatchik drones caught in the great machine, flipping
                                          burgers or selling sneakers.


                                          --- In fantasyfictiondungeon@yahoogroups.com, karl barnes
                                          <priestvyrce@y...> wrote:
                                          > I don't mind it, it was just that Mieville's ending to King Rat
                                          came off as heavy handed. He almost hits you over the head with his
                                          beliefs and also, it really was out of character, in a way. Not that
                                          it didn't show that the character had these leanings, but came off
                                          as a poor man's Lenin. It wasn't the message, but how it was
                                          delivered.
                                          >
                                          > Matt <gauvaine@y...> wrote:Well, some writers do, do that. It's
                                          their right, especially when
                                          > they have an audience for their world view. John Grisham does it,
                                          > Tom Clancy does it, Dan Simmons does it. From Shakespeare, to
                                          > Jonathan Swift, to Dickens, to Steinbeck, to Hemingway to Jonathan
                                          > Lethem, you can't get away from it. It's why alot of people write.
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > --- In fantasyfictiondungeon@yahoogroups.com, karl barnes
                                          > <priestvyrce@y...> wrote:
                                          > > I read his first novel, King Rat, which is a wonderful
                                          > continuation of the Pied Piper story with some intersting twists.
                                          > BUT his preaching(and that is what it was) at the end of the story
                                          > kind of put me off a bit.
                                          > >
                                          > > Matt <gauvaine@y...> wrote:Unfortunately or fortunately, China
                                          > Mieville is the darling of the
                                          > > British literary elite right now, as well as members of the
                                          > > Socialist political establishment over there, being he was very
                                          > > close to being an MP for the Socialist Alliance. His left wing
                                          > > mantra is a large part of his writing. Everything has a very
                                          > > Dickensian aura over everything, as far as the gloom and
                                          > industrial
                                          > > harshness of cities.
                                          > >
                                          > > Not that that is wrong. His concepts are very surreal and weird,
                                          > and
                                          > > he does it on purpose, as he's said that he's looking for a
                                          real,
                                          > > anti-Tolkien, Lovecraftian feel to things to get away from the
                                          > > standard tropes and cliches we've been saddled with. And, of
                                          > course,
                                          > > political bent is inherent in any person's writing, whether they
                                          > > know they're doing it or not.
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > --- In fantasyfictiondungeon@yahoogroups.com, "Saje"
                                          > <soulsaje@c...>
                                          > > wrote:
                                          > > > Perdido Street Station threw me off when I realized what the
                                          > > protagonist's girlfriend was...it was, to me, just weird for the
                                          > > sake of weird. It really turned me off.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > And I actually got almost a hundred pages into "The Scar" but
                                          I
                                          > > found it rather boring.
                                          > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Saje Williams
                                          > > > Author of the Infinity: Earth Saga
                                          > > > Book I "Loki's Sin" available now
                                          > > > http://www.wingsepress.com OR
                                          > > > http://www.sajewilliams.com
                                          > > > ----- Original Message -----
                                          > > > From: Matt
                                          > > > To: fantasyfictiondungeon@yahoogroups.com
                                          > > > Sent: Thursday, August 04, 2005 12:12 PM
                                          > > > Subject: Re: [Fantasy Fiction Dungeon] Discussion
                                          > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Funny thing. I started reading Perdido Street Station and
                                          the
                                          > > Scar,
                                          > > > as well. I don't really know what to think, at this point.
                                          > It's
                                          > > like
                                          > > > reading a stylized version of Dark City and City of Lost
                                          > > Children
                                          > > > rolled into Zelazny's Amber stuff. In other words, something
                                          > > very
                                          > > > weird and surreal, like you said.
                                          > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > > > --- In fantasyfictiondungeon@yahoogroups.com, "Saje"
                                          > > <soulsaje@c...>
                                          > > > wrote:
                                          > > > > I'll keep the name in mind. Can you tell me a little
                                          about
                                          > it.
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > I have to say that if it's too surreal, oh...what's that
                                          > > brit's
                                          > > > name...China Melville or something like that?
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > Can't stand it. Either boring or weird. Disjointed in an
                                          > odd
                                          > > > way. I can handle more surreal sci-fi than fantasy, oddly
                                          > > enough.
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > If that makes any sense at all...
                                          > > > > Saje Williams
                                          > > > > Author of the Infinity: Earth Saga
                                          > > > > Book I "Loki's Sin" available now
                                          > > > > http://www.wingsepress.com OR
                                          > > > > http://www.sajewilliams.com
                                          > > > > ----- Original Message -----
                                          > > > > From: karl barnes
                                          > > > > To: fantasyfictiondungeon@yahoogroups.com
                                          > > > > Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 8:32 PM
                                          > > > > Subject: Re: [Fantasy Fiction Dungeon] Discussion
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > Carol Berg's "Transformation" and "Restoration" are two
                                          > > pretty
                                          > > > unique novels. If you haven't tried them, I suggest that you
                                          > do.
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > Saje <soulsaje@c...> wrote:Tastes differ, that's for
                                          sure.
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > I've already stated my preference for originality.
                                          > Bishop's
                                          > > > series can literally be compared to nothing else I've ever
                                          > > > read...that recommends it very highly in my book.
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > Besides...there's just something about a series where
                                          the
                                          > > heroes
                                          > > > are scarier than the villains. <g>
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > Saje Williams
                                          > > > > Author of the Infinity: Earth Saga
                                          > > > > Book I "Loki's Sin" available now
                                          > > > > http://www.wingsepress.com OR
                                          > > > > http://www.sajewilliams.com
                                          > > > > ----- Original Message -----
                                          > > > > From: karl barnes
                                          > > > > To: fantasyfictiondungeon@yahoogroups.com
                                          > > > > Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 5:32 PM
                                          > > > > Subject: Re: [Fantasy Fiction Dungeon] Discussion
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > Love Hobbs and yes, I have read "Black Jewels" trilogy
                                          > > though
                                          > > > I don't think that it is the best fantasy series in ages.
                                          > It'll
                                          > > > definitely do as a series that I'll highly recommend.
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > Saje <soulsaje@c...> wrote:Robin Hobb's good, come to
                                          > > think of
                                          > > > it.
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > Have you tried Anne Bishop? Has anyone here tried
                                          > > the "Black
                                          > > > Jewels?"
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > Truly the best fantasy series in ages. Bar none.
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > Saje Williams
                                          > > > > Author of the Infinity: Earth Saga
                                          > > > > Book I "Loki's Sin" available now
                                          > > > > http://www.wingsepress.com OR
                                          > > > > http://www.sajewilliams.com
                                          > > > > ----- Original Message -----
                                          > > > > From: Matt
                                          > > > > To: fantasyfictiondungeon@yahoogroups.com
                                          > > > > Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 3:39 PM
                                          > > > > Subject: Re: [Fantasy Fiction Dungeon] Discussion
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > I get bogged down sometimes, too, always searching
                                          for
                                          > > > something
                                          > > > > fresh to digest. Everyone left Robin Hobb off their
                                          > list
                                          > > and
                                          > > > J.V.
                                          > > > > Jones, who are about 10 years into their respective
                                          > > writing
                                          > > > careers.
                                          > > > > Nothing really new from either of those lately. I
                                          > > thought
                                          > > > the
                                          > > > > Farseer books were really well done and her writing
                                          > > ranks up
                                          > > > there
                                          > > > > with Tad Williams as far as it's freshness and
                                          lyrical
                                          > > ease.
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > Another current would be Elizabeth Haydon, i suppose
                                          > and
                                          > > > Sara
                                          > > > > Douglas.
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > I always read David Gemmell. There's nothing like a
                                          > > quick
                                          > > > kick to
                                          > > > > your face to get you energized. That's how his books
                                          > > are.
                                          > > > Fast,
                                          > > > > furious, no dilly dallying. He has mastered the art
                                          of
                                          > > the
                                          > > > anti-hero
                                          > > > > and the epic hero as well. That's hard to do.
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > I do like Dave Duncan's Kings Blades books. I will
                                          > > always
                                          > > > love his
                                          > > > > Magic Casement and A Man of His Word series. One of
                                          > the
                                          > > > best, fun,
                                          > > > > exciting series i've read in a long time. I think
                                          > > they're
                                          > > > pretty
                                          > > > > much out of print now, but worth reading if you can
                                          > find
                                          > > > them.
                                          > > > > They're fun. Nothing serious. Just fun. And the
                                          magic
                                          > > system
                                          > > > he came
                                          > > > > up with was ingenious, in my opinion. It was so
                                          simple
                                          > > but
                                          > > > sensible
                                          > > > > that I wish everyone can be that in their writing.
                                          His
                                          > > > Swordsman
                                          > > > > Trilogy was also good. One of my favorites until i
                                          > read
                                          > > the
                                          > > > Magic
                                          > > > > Casement stuff.
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > Sean McMullen, for the uninitiated, writes some very
                                          > > time
                                          > > > spanning,
                                          > > > > epic science fiction from the land down under. He's
                                          > > > published here
                                          > > > > now and has started a very good fantasy series. His
                                          > sci
                                          > > > fiction is
                                          > > > > grandiose but well honed. Souls in the Great Machine
                                          > is
                                          > > his
                                          > > > first, i
                                          > > > > think. Very readable and ooh, ahhh kind of stuff.
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > As for Anderson, I think his Seven Suns series is
                                          very
                                          > > good
                                          > > > which
                                          > > > > i'm reading now. It's space opera so not serious.
                                          > > Haven't
                                          > > > read any
                                          > > > > of the Star Wars stuff.
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > Another honorable mention would be L.E. Modesitt,
                                          > Jr.'s
                                          > > > Recluce
                                          > > > > books. I'm reading Wellspring of Chaos right now,
                                          > which
                                          > > gets
                                          > > > back
                                          > > > > more to a character driven aspect than the last few
                                          > > books,
                                          > > > which
                                          > > > > were political in nature and kind of dry. His whole
                                          > > > Chaos/Order
                                          > > > > mythos could be an encylopedia by itself. I'm
                                          > surprised
                                          > > > someone
                                          > > > > hasn't written one, much like the Guide to Middle
                                          > Earth,
                                          > > > Guide to
                                          > > > > the Wheel of time, Guide to the Land, Guide to
                                          Narnia,
                                          > > etc.
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > I am reading some of Mercedes Lackey's stuff,
                                          notably
                                          > > Joust.
                                          > > > I read
                                          > > > > her first Bardic Voices book, which i loved right up
                                          > to
                                          > > the
                                          > > > point in
                                          > > > > which in degenerated into cliche driven romantic
                                          muck
                                          > at
                                          > > the
                                          > > > end
                                          > > > > that didn't mesh with what she had written the last
                                          > 200
                                          > > > pages. I was
                                          > > > > disappointed. I'm reading It Takes A Thief and also
                                          > have
                                          > > > Exiles
                                          > > > > Honor to read. She borders on brilliant, but has
                                          > flashes
                                          > > of
                                          > > > > jingoistic juvenilia on the tip of her fingers
                                          > > sometimes,
                                          > > > too.
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > I highly recommend Summerland by Michael Chabon.
                                          > > Excellent
                                          > > > book.
                                          > > > > That should have been on my list, too. Anyone that
                                          can
                                          > > > switch genres
                                          > > > > from Pulitzer, National Book Award type stuff like
                                          > > Kavalier
                                          > > > and Clay
                                          > > > > was to a magical kids book about baseball
                                          and "pixies"
                                          > > has
                                          > > > to be one
                                          > > > > hell of a writer.
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > I always loved Thieves World, Asprin's Myth books,
                                          > Piers
                                          > > > Anthony
                                          > > > > Xanth books, up to Man from Mundania, i think. And
                                          > Terry
                                          > > > Pratchett
                                          > > > > is starting to grow on me and i'm rereading Douglas
                                          > > Adams'
                                          > > > stuff,
                                          > > > > too. I can't wait until Hitchhiker's Guide comes out
                                          > on
                                          > > DVD
                                          > > > next
                                          > > > > month. Some people hated it, but i loved the movie.
                                          > They
                                          > > > captured
                                          > > > > the spirit of the books, which is all that i could
                                          > have
                                          > > > hoped for.
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > Hmmm. For a good scifi jaunt, read David Brin's Kiln
                                          > > People
                                          > > > book.
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > --- In fantasyfictiondungeon@yahoogroups.com, "Saje"
                                          > > > <soulsaje@c...>
                                          > > > > wrote:
                                          > > > > > I have to admit I've gotten a little bored with
                                          the
                                          > > epic
                                          > > > fantasy
                                          > > > > stuff. I really enjoyed both Jordan and
                                          Martin...for
                                          > a
                                          > > > time. But
                                          > > > > when each book of Jordan's started ending without
                                          any
                                          > > sort
                                          > > > of real
                                          > > > > resolution to that novel's storylines, I got just a
                                          > > little
                                          > > > fed up.
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > > > I'll probably catch up with Martin when he's
                                          > > finished.
                                          > > > He's the
                                          > > > > kind of writer I'd just prefer to wait to read. I
                                          > > really
                                          > > > enjoyed
                                          > > > > the first novel.
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > > > I didn't get into Goodkind. I can't say why,
                                          > > exactly.
                                          > > > It's been
                                          > > > > a while since I read the first book, but I didn't
                                          feel
                                          > > > caught on
                                          > > > > fire by what he's doing.
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > > > Frankly, I think Anne Bishop's Black Jewels series
                                          > > blows
                                          > > > > everything all three have written right out of the
                                          > > water.
                                          > > > Something
                                          > > > > OTHER than epic fantasy really struck me where I
                                          > live.
                                          > > Put
                                          > > > it to
                                          > > > > you this way--I have never read a fantasy of any
                                          kind
                                          > > that
                                          > > > you can
                                          > > > > compare it to. It's original.
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > > > Kinda like mine own, come to think of it. One
                                          > > question I
                                          > > > cannot
                                          > > > > answer is "who would you compare your work to?"
                                          > > > > > I can't think of single good example, though I do
                                          > play
                                          > > > with
                                          > > > > concepts that should be familiar to everyone. But
                                          my
                                          > > voice,
                                          > > > and the
                                          > > > > total picture, is like nothing else you've ever read.
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > > > I'd LOVE to be the next big thing...but I think
                                          it's
                                          > > more
                                          > > > likely
                                          > > > > that I'll be the next next big thing, if it happens
                                          at
                                          > > all.
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > > > Stackpole is a possibility. I'm not sure about
                                          > > > McMullen...don't
                                          > > > > recognize the name right off. I've never been that
                                          > big
                                          > > a
                                          > > > fan of
                                          > > > > Anderson. Even his Star Wars books never had quite
                                          > the
                                          > > kick
                                          > > > to me
                                          > > > > as Zahn, Stackpole, or even Aaron Allston.
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > > > Maybe I'm just burned out on the Epic stuff. I
                                          cut
                                          > my
                                          > > > teeth on
                                          > > > > LOTR and then Weiss and Hickman's Dragonlance,
                                          > Guardians
                                          > > of
                                          > > > the
                                          > > > > Flame (Joel Rosenberg), Feist's Rift War series, and
                                          > the
                                          > > > Elenium and
                                          > > > > Belgariad by Eddings. And then you've got Lackey's
                                          > > stuff,
                                          > > > which
                                          > > > > varies a bit in quality, in my opinion. My favorite
                                          > of
                                          > > the
                                          > > > Valdemar
                                          > > > > books will always be her "Queen's Own" trilogy,
                                          > > personally.
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > > > But I always also really liked Glen Cook's Black
                                          > > Company
                                          > > > and
                                          > > > > Garret P.I. books, , and Jennifer Robeson's Tiger
                                          and
                                          > > Del
                                          > > > series.
                                          > > > > Not epic fantasy, but something of their own.
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > > > I put both Gemmel's works and Elizabeth Moon's
                                          > > > Paksennarion books
                                          > > > > in the "heroic" category, following and very much
                                          > > improving
                                          > > > on the
                                          > > > > traditions of Robert E. Howard.
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > > > Hell, and then you got Donaldson's "anti-heroic"
                                          > > > Chronicles of
                                          > > > > Thomas Covenant.
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > > > All of these voices have brought something unique
                                          to
                                          > > the
                                          > > > fantasy
                                          > > > > field.
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > > > But, I reiterate, I'd pretty much burned out on
                                          the
                                          > > epic
                                          > > > stuff.
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > > > Saje Williams
                                          > > > > > Author of the Infinity: Earth Saga
                                          > > > > > Book I "Loki's Sin" available now
                                          > > > > > http://www.wingsepress.com OR
                                          > > > > > http://www.sajewilliams.com
                                          > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
                                          > > > > > From: Matt
                                          > > > > > To: fantasyfictiondungeon@yahoogroups.com
                                          > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2005 9:10 AM
                                          > > > > > Subject: [Fantasy Fiction Dungeon] Discussion
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > > > Okay, i'm going to throw a hand grenade and see
                                          > what
                                          > > > comes to
                                          > > > > the
                                          > > > > > surface.
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > > > What are the fundamental differences between
                                          > Robert
                                          > > > Jordan,
                                          > > > > George
                                          > > > > > Martin, and Terry Goodkind?
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > > > They all write long, unending epic novels with
                                          > tons
                                          > > of
                                          > > > world
                                          > > > > > building, a cast of thousands, and meandering
                                          > plots
                                          > > that
                                          > > > are
                                          > > > > more
                                          > > > > > convoluted than a Gordian knot. Why do we keep
                                          > > buying
                                          > > > these
                                          > > > > things?
                                          > > > > > And is there some formula inherent in their
                                          makeup
                                          > > that
                                          > > > they
                                          > > > > must
                                          > > > > > follow?
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > > > I'm just curious. I stop reading Jordan at Path
                                          of
                                          > > > Daggers,
                                          > > > > which
                                          > > > > > i'm halfway through. Martin, i got tired of
                                          > waiting
                                          > > for
                                          > > > A Feast
                                          > > > > of
                                          > > > > > Crows to come forth after waiting 5 years after
                                          > > Storm of
                                          > > > Swords
                                          > > > > was
                                          > > > > > published. And Terry Goodkind cranks his out
                                          every
                                          > > year,
                                          > > > like
                                          > > > > > clockwork. Or every 14 to 16 months, depending.
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > > > Is it time for a new torch to be passed to
                                          someone
                                          > > else,
                                          > > > say
                                          > > > > Michael
                                          > > > > > Stackpole, Sean McMullen, Kevin Anderson, to
                                          name
                                          > a
                                          > > few?
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > > > I only say this because it's cyclic. When i was
                                          in
                                          > > > highschool,
                                          > > > > Terry
                                          > > > > > Brooks, David Eddings, Tracy Hickman and
                                          Margaret
                                          > > Weis
                                          > > > were the
                                          > > > > > novelists of the moment.
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > > >
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                                        • Marc Vun Kannon
                                          I ve always considered it a sign of bad writing when they do. A good writer should be able to get his point across without resorting to having a character
                                          Message 20 of 28 , Aug 5, 2005
                                            I've always considered it a sign of bad writing when
                                            they do. A good writer should be able to get his
                                            point across without resorting to having a character
                                            stand in a corner and declaim for five pages while the
                                            action stops and all the other characters comment on
                                            his brilliance. Especially if no one can think of an
                                            alternative to thast opinion. There's nothing lamer
                                            and more obvious than such a scene erupting in the
                                            middle of an otherwise good story.

                                            --- Matt <gauvaine@...> wrote:

                                            > Well, some writers do, do that. It's their right,
                                            > especially when
                                            > they have an audience for their world view. John
                                            > Grisham does it,
                                            > Tom Clancy does it, Dan Simmons does it. From
                                            > Shakespeare, to
                                            > Jonathan Swift, to Dickens, to Steinbeck, to
                                            > Hemingway to Jonathan
                                            > Lethem, you can't get away from it. It's why alot of
                                            > people write.
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > --- In fantasyfictiondungeon@yahoogroups.com, karl
                                            > barnes
                                            > <priestvyrce@y...> wrote:
                                            > > I read his first novel, King Rat, which is a
                                            > wonderful
                                            > continuation of the Pied Piper story with some
                                            > intersting twists.
                                            > BUT his preaching(and that is what it was) at the
                                            > end of the story
                                            > kind of put me off a bit.
                                            > >
                                            > > Matt <gauvaine@y...> wrote:Unfortunately or
                                            > fortunately, China
                                            > Mieville is the darling of the
                                            > > British literary elite right now, as well as
                                            > members of the
                                            > > Socialist political establishment over there,
                                            > being he was very
                                            > > close to being an MP for the Socialist Alliance.
                                            > His left wing
                                            > > mantra is a large part of his writing. Everything
                                            > has a very
                                            > > Dickensian aura over everything, as far as the
                                            > gloom and
                                            > industrial
                                            > > harshness of cities.
                                            > >
                                            > > Not that that is wrong. His concepts are very
                                            > surreal and weird,
                                            > and
                                            > > he does it on purpose, as he's said that he's
                                            > looking for a real,
                                            > > anti-Tolkien, Lovecraftian feel to things to get
                                            > away from the
                                            > > standard tropes and cliches we've been saddled
                                            > with. And, of
                                            > course,
                                            > > political bent is inherent in any person's
                                            > writing, whether they
                                            > > know they're doing it or not.
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > > --- In fantasyfictiondungeon@yahoogroups.com,
                                            > "Saje"
                                            > <soulsaje@c...>
                                            > > wrote:
                                            > > > Perdido Street Station threw me off when I
                                            > realized what the
                                            > > protagonist's girlfriend was...it was, to me, just
                                            > weird for the
                                            > > sake of weird. It really turned me off.
                                            > > >
                                            > > > And I actually got almost a hundred pages into
                                            > "The Scar" but I
                                            > > found it rather boring.
                                            > > >
                                            > > >
                                            > > > Saje Williams
                                            > > > Author of the Infinity: Earth Saga
                                            > > > Book I "Loki's Sin" available now
                                            > > > http://www.wingsepress.com OR
                                            > > > http://www.sajewilliams.com
                                            > > > ----- Original Message -----
                                            > > > From: Matt
                                            > > > To: fantasyfictiondungeon@yahoogroups.com
                                            > > > Sent: Thursday, August 04, 2005 12:12 PM
                                            > > > Subject: Re: [Fantasy Fiction Dungeon]
                                            > Discussion
                                            > > >
                                            > > >
                                            > > > Funny thing. I started reading Perdido Street
                                            > Station and the
                                            > > Scar,
                                            > > > as well. I don't really know what to think, at
                                            > this point.
                                            > It's
                                            > > like
                                            > > > reading a stylized version of Dark City and
                                            > City of Lost
                                            > > Children
                                            > > > rolled into Zelazny's Amber stuff. In other
                                            > words, something
                                            > > very
                                            > > > weird and surreal, like you said.
                                            > > >
                                            > > >
                                            > > > --- In fantasyfictiondungeon@yahoogroups.com,
                                            > "Saje"
                                            > > <soulsaje@c...>
                                            > > > wrote:
                                            > > > > I'll keep the name in mind. Can you tell me
                                            > a little about
                                            > it.
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > I have to say that if it's too surreal,
                                            > oh...what's that
                                            > > brit's
                                            > > > name...China Melville or something like that?
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > Can't stand it. Either boring or weird.
                                            > Disjointed in an
                                            > odd
                                            > > > way. I can handle more surreal sci-fi than
                                            > fantasy, oddly
                                            > > enough.
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > If that makes any sense at all...
                                            > > > > Saje Williams
                                            > > > > Author of the Infinity: Earth Saga
                                            > > > > Book I "Loki's Sin" available now
                                            > > > > http://www.wingsepress.com OR
                                            > > > > http://www.sajewilliams.com
                                            > > > > ----- Original Message -----
                                            > > > > From: karl barnes
                                            > > > > To: fantasyfictiondungeon@yahoogroups.com
                                            > > > > Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 8:32 PM
                                            > > > > Subject: Re: [Fantasy Fiction Dungeon]
                                            > Discussion
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > Carol Berg's "Transformation" and
                                            > "Restoration" are two
                                            > > pretty
                                            > > > unique novels. If you haven't tried them, I
                                            > suggest that you
                                            > do.
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > Saje <soulsaje@c...> wrote:Tastes differ,
                                            > that's for sure.
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > I've already stated my preference for
                                            > originality.
                                            > Bishop's
                                            > > > series can literally be compared to nothing
                                            > else I've ever
                                            > > > read...that recommends it very highly in my
                                            > book.
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > Besides...there's just something about a
                                            > series where the
                                            > > heroes
                                            > > > are scarier than the villains. <g>
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > Saje Williams
                                            > > > > Author of the Infinity: Earth Saga
                                            > > > > Book I "Loki's Sin" available now
                                            > > > > http://www.wingsepress.com OR
                                            > > > > http://www.sajewilliams.com
                                            > > > > ----- Original Message -----
                                            > > > > From: karl barnes
                                            > > > > To:
                                            > fantasyfictiondungeon@yahoogroups.com
                                            > > > > Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 5:32 PM
                                            > > > > Subject: Re: [Fantasy Fiction Dungeon]
                                            > Discussion
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > Love Hobbs and yes, I have read "Black
                                            > Jewels" trilogy
                                            > > though
                                            > > > I don't think that it is the best fantasy
                                            > series in ages.
                                            > It'll
                                            > > > definitely do as a series that I'll highly
                                            > recommend.
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > Saje <soulsaje@c...> wrote:Robin Hobb's
                                            > good, come to
                                            > > think of
                                            > > > it.
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > Have you tried Anne Bishop? Has anyone
                                            > here tried
                                            > > the "Black
                                            > > > Jewels?"
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > Truly the best fantasy series in ages.
                                            > Bar none.
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > Saje Williams
                                            > > > > Author of the Infinity: Earth Saga
                                            > > > > Book I "Loki's Sin" available now
                                            > > > > http://www.wingsepress.com OR
                                            > > > > http://www.sajewilliams.com
                                            > > > > ----- Original Message -----
                                            > > > > From: Matt
                                            > > > > To:
                                            > fantasyfictiondungeon@yahoogroups.com
                                            === message truncated ===


                                            Marc Vun Kannon

                                            http://www.marcvunkannon.com

                                            Unbinding the Stone--Making lemonade from fantasy lemons
                                            Coming in October, 2005--A Warrior Made.



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