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Re: [Fantasy Fiction Dungeon] Cool looking place....

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  • Matt Baker
    Bob, Have you ever heard the adage that money flows to the writer, not away from? You should never pay an agent anything, they re supposed to make you
    Message 1 of 11 , Apr 29, 2003
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      Bob, Have you ever heard the adage that money flows to the writer, not away from? You should never pay an agent anything, they're supposed to make you money, not the other way around. Charging fees violates AAR guidelines. Most scam agents get their revenue by charging fees, not by selling books, because they can't sell any books. But you know that now, unfortunately. The same thing for vanity publishers and subsidy publishers. Here are some examples:
      One writer reported that she lost $10,000 to a vanity publisher that went into bankruptcy. More than 500 other writers were also affected. In addition to the money, she lost all her materials, including illustrations she'd provided for the book.
      Another paid more than $6,000 to two different subsidy publishers that failed to complete the same book project. One of the publishers talked the writer into forking over extra cash to make an accompanying videotape, and then required her--at her own expense--to provide a legal document exempting the publisher from any possibility of lawsuit before it would return her materials.
      Another shortened her manuscript from nearly 400 pages to under 300, at the publisher's request. This publisher presented itself as a legitimate small press; it wasn't until the contract arrived that the writer discovered she was expected to pay more than $8,000 for publication.
      Another writer is suing a British subsidy publisher that failed to market two books for which he paid a total of 9,600 pounds. He was never able to verify the number of books printed, and those he was able to find were of poor quality.
      Several others (all dealing with the same vanity/subsidy publisher) paid between $3,000 and $5,000 each for books that were never produced, despite extravagant promises. The publisher responded to their questions and expressions of concern with threats and verbal abuse.
      Still other writers signed up with a literary agency that owned a subsidy publisher under a different name, and were offered pay-to-publish contracts after they'd received a number of rejections from commercial publishers.
      From Writers Beware: http://www.sfwa.org/Beware/subsidypublishers.html
      "As writers become more aware of the pitfalls of vanity/subsidy publishing, many pay-to-publish operations are trying dodge the vanity/subsidy label by switching their charges to areas other than printing and binding. I often hear from writers who are confused because they've been offered a contract by a publisher that describes itself as "traditional" or as a "small press" but wants them to make some kind of financial commitment.

      If asked, such publishers vehemently deny that they are vanity/subsidy operations--after all, they don't accept everyone who submits, and they aren't asking their authors to pay for printing their books. But the truth is that any publisher that requires you to contribute financially to the publication of your work is a vanity/subsidy publisher--i.e., a publisher that looks to its authors as its main source of income. As noted above, a publisher like this does not have a strong incentive to get books into the hands of readers, and is likely to spend little cash or effort on marketing or distribution.
      Here are some of the "alternative" charges you may encounter:
      A setup fee or deposit. Publishers that want you to pay a setup fee will tell you that you're not paying to publish, just contributing to the cost of preparing your book for printing, or making a "good faith investment" in your own success. Some publishers promise to refund the fee under certain circumstances (usually carefully crafted so they'll almost never be fulfilled).
      A pre-purchase requirement. Some publishers include a clause in their contract requiring you to purchase a set number of your books--often several thousand copies at a minimal discount. This can add up to many thousands of dollars, and often winds up being more expensive than straight vanity/subsidy publishing.
      A pre-sale requirement. You may be required to pre-sell a certain number of your books prior to publication. You don't have to buy them yourself--you can sell them to anyone you like--but you have to make the sales or the publishing deal is off. (This is an especially tricky variation on the pay-to-publish scheme, because it allows the publisher to claim that it's not asking you for cash. But it's not an author's job to hawk his/her own books--that's what the publisher is supposed to do.)
      A paid editing requirement. Some publishers don't charge to print and bind your book, but instead require you to pay several thousand dollars for editing (royalty publishers also provide pre-publication editing, but don't ask their authors to pay for it). The editing is usually minimal and not of professional quality.
      A requirement that you pay for publicity. Some publishers want you to finance a publicity campaign, either by paying them directly or by hiring someone from a list they provide (in which case they're probably paying a kickback, or else own the firm under a different name). As with paid editing, paid publicity of this sort is usually not worth the money.
      Pressure to purchase your own book for resale. This indicates a publisher whose main customer base is its own authors. While such publishers may not ask you for upfront money, they still expect you to provide the bulk of your own sales.

      Other things.... I know of one publisher that requires its authors to attend its own very expensive conference every year. Another binds advertisements into its books, and requires its authors to sell a minimum amount of ad space. Another requires its authors to hire its staff to design their book covers. The permutations are endless.

      Just be careful that you aren't being scammed when you don't have to be. Go to Writer Beware and check up on your publisher that you are paying and see if they've had any complaints filed against them. You can always go to Speculations and pose a question in the Caveat Scribner topic, also. Victoria will help you out.

      http://www.speculations.com/rumormill/index.php?t=200&show_all_topics=0



      As a curiosity, what was the name of the agent who was charging you fees? If he hasn't been reported to Preditors and Editors yet, maybe he should be.



      Matt


      "For better or worse, you have been marked."

      ---------------------------------
      Do you Yahoo!?
      The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo.

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • C Robert Cales
      Matt, thanks for all the info. The agency was Bawn Publishers Literary Agency in a suburb of Cincinnati, Ohio. I can t think of the name of the town right this
      Message 2 of 11 , Apr 29, 2003
      • 0 Attachment
        Matt, thanks for all the info. The agency was Bawn Publishers Literary Agency in a suburb of Cincinnati, Ohio. I can't think of the name of the town right this second. With respect to him it gets a little worse. He owed me a little royalty money, which the publisher sent to him by mistake after I was dropped and royalties assigned to me. It took me two months to send me my $114, then his check bounced. I'm ready to file criminal charges against him in the next few days if I don't get my money.

        Yeah, I wish somebody would report him (Willie E. Nason). I'll be a character witness at his trial.

        So, now you know where I am. Where does a guy go from here when the book in question is the next great horror novel? Yeah, Matt, regardless of all the bullshit, I still believe that in my heart. Amazing isn't it?

        Bob
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: Matt Baker
        To: fantasyfictiondungeon@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2003 11:05 AM
        Subject: Re: [Fantasy Fiction Dungeon] Cool looking place....


        Bob, Have you ever heard the adage that money flows to the writer, not away from? You should never pay an agent anything, they're supposed to make you money, not the other way around. Charging fees violates AAR guidelines. Most scam agents get their revenue by charging fees, not by selling books, because they can't sell any books. But you know that now, unfortunately. The same thing for vanity publishers and subsidy publishers. Here are some examples:
        One writer reported that she lost $10,000 to a vanity publisher that went into bankruptcy. More than 500 other writers were also affected. In addition to the money, she lost all her materials, including illustrations she'd provided for the book.
        Another paid more than $6,000 to two different subsidy publishers that failed to complete the same book project. One of the publishers talked the writer into forking over extra cash to make an accompanying videotape, and then required her--at her own expense--to provide a legal document exempting the publisher from any possibility of lawsuit before it would return her materials.
        Another shortened her manuscript from nearly 400 pages to under 300, at the publisher's request. This publisher presented itself as a legitimate small press; it wasn't until the contract arrived that the writer discovered she was expected to pay more than $8,000 for publication.
        Another writer is suing a British subsidy publisher that failed to market two books for which he paid a total of 9,600 pounds. He was never able to verify the number of books printed, and those he was able to find were of poor quality.
        Several others (all dealing with the same vanity/subsidy publisher) paid between $3,000 and $5,000 each for books that were never produced, despite extravagant promises. The publisher responded to their questions and expressions of concern with threats and verbal abuse.
        Still other writers signed up with a literary agency that owned a subsidy publisher under a different name, and were offered pay-to-publish contracts after they'd received a number of rejections from commercial publishers.
        From Writers Beware: http://www.sfwa.org/Beware/subsidypublishers.html
        "As writers become more aware of the pitfalls of vanity/subsidy publishing, many pay-to-publish operations are trying dodge the vanity/subsidy label by switching their charges to areas other than printing and binding. I often hear from writers who are confused because they've been offered a contract by a publisher that describes itself as "traditional" or as a "small press" but wants them to make some kind of financial commitment.

        If asked, such publishers vehemently deny that they are vanity/subsidy operations--after all, they don't accept everyone who submits, and they aren't asking their authors to pay for printing their books. But the truth is that any publisher that requires you to contribute financially to the publication of your work is a vanity/subsidy publisher--i.e., a publisher that looks to its authors as its main source of income. As noted above, a publisher like this does not have a strong incentive to get books into the hands of readers, and is likely to spend little cash or effort on marketing or distribution.
        Here are some of the "alternative" charges you may encounter:
        A setup fee or deposit. Publishers that want you to pay a setup fee will tell you that you're not paying to publish, just contributing to the cost of preparing your book for printing, or making a "good faith investment" in your own success. Some publishers promise to refund the fee under certain circumstances (usually carefully crafted so they'll almost never be fulfilled).
        A pre-purchase requirement. Some publishers include a clause in their contract requiring you to purchase a set number of your books--often several thousand copies at a minimal discount. This can add up to many thousands of dollars, and often winds up being more expensive than straight vanity/subsidy publishing.
        A pre-sale requirement. You may be required to pre-sell a certain number of your books prior to publication. You don't have to buy them yourself--you can sell them to anyone you like--but you have to make the sales or the publishing deal is off. (This is an especially tricky variation on the pay-to-publish scheme, because it allows the publisher to claim that it's not asking you for cash. But it's not an author's job to hawk his/her own books--that's what the publisher is supposed to do.)
        A paid editing requirement. Some publishers don't charge to print and bind your book, but instead require you to pay several thousand dollars for editing (royalty publishers also provide pre-publication editing, but don't ask their authors to pay for it). The editing is usually minimal and not of professional quality.
        A requirement that you pay for publicity. Some publishers want you to finance a publicity campaign, either by paying them directly or by hiring someone from a list they provide (in which case they're probably paying a kickback, or else own the firm under a different name). As with paid editing, paid publicity of this sort is usually not worth the money.
        Pressure to purchase your own book for resale. This indicates a publisher whose main customer base is its own authors. While such publishers may not ask you for upfront money, they still expect you to provide the bulk of your own sales.

        Other things.... I know of one publisher that requires its authors to attend its own very expensive conference every year. Another binds advertisements into its books, and requires its authors to sell a minimum amount of ad space. Another requires its authors to hire its staff to design their book covers. The permutations are endless.

        Just be careful that you aren't being scammed when you don't have to be. Go to Writer Beware and check up on your publisher that you are paying and see if they've had any complaints filed against them. You can always go to Speculations and pose a question in the Caveat Scribner topic, also. Victoria will help you out.

        http://www.speculations.com/rumormill/index.php?t=200&show_all_topics=0



        As a curiosity, what was the name of the agent who was charging you fees? If he hasn't been reported to Preditors and Editors yet, maybe he should be.



        Matt


        "For better or worse, you have been marked."

        ---------------------------------
        Do you Yahoo!?
        The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo.

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


        Yahoo! Groups Sponsor



        To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
        fantasyfictiondungeon-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



        Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Matt Baker
        Bob, if you don t mind, i ll report this guy and the publisher to Victoria and/or find out if anyone else has already reported him. I ll also do some market
        Message 3 of 11 , Apr 29, 2003
        • 0 Attachment
          Bob, if you don't mind, i'll report this guy and the publisher to Victoria and/or find out if anyone else has already reported him. I'll also do some market research for you for legitimate publishers and agents that deal with horror (that don't charge fees of course).

          C Robert Cales <meccrc@...> wrote:Matt, thanks for all the info. The agency was Bawn Publishers Literary Agency in a suburb of Cincinnati, Ohio. I can't think of the name of the town right this second. With respect to him it gets a little worse. He owed me a little royalty money, which the publisher sent to him by mistake after I was dropped and royalties assigned to me. It took me two months to send me my $114, then his check bounced. I'm ready to file criminal charges against him in the next few days if I don't get my money.

          Yeah, I wish somebody would report him (Willie E. Nason). I'll be a character witness at his trial.

          So, now you know where I am. Where does a guy go from here when the book in question is the next great horror novel? Yeah, Matt, regardless of all the bullshit, I still believe that in my heart. Amazing isn't it?

          Bob
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: Matt Baker
          To: fantasyfictiondungeon@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2003 11:05 AM
          Subject: Re: [Fantasy Fiction Dungeon] Cool looking place....


          Bob, Have you ever heard the adage that money flows to the writer, not away from? You should never pay an agent anything, they're supposed to make you money, not the other way around. Charging fees violates AAR guidelines. Most scam agents get their revenue by charging fees, not by selling books, because they can't sell any books. But you know that now, unfortunately. The same thing for vanity publishers and subsidy publishers. Here are some examples:
          One writer reported that she lost $10,000 to a vanity publisher that went into bankruptcy. More than 500 other writers were also affected. In addition to the money, she lost all her materials, including illustrations she'd provided for the book.
          Another paid more than $6,000 to two different subsidy publishers that failed to complete the same book project. One of the publishers talked the writer into forking over extra cash to make an accompanying videotape, and then required her--at her own expense--to provide a legal document exempting the publisher from any possibility of lawsuit before it would return her materials.
          Another shortened her manuscript from nearly 400 pages to under 300, at the publisher's request. This publisher presented itself as a legitimate small press; it wasn't until the contract arrived that the writer discovered she was expected to pay more than $8,000 for publication.
          Another writer is suing a British subsidy publisher that failed to market two books for which he paid a total of 9,600 pounds. He was never able to verify the number of books printed, and those he was able to find were of poor quality.
          Several others (all dealing with the same vanity/subsidy publisher) paid between $3,000 and $5,000 each for books that were never produced, despite extravagant promises. The publisher responded to their questions and expressions of concern with threats and verbal abuse.
          Still other writers signed up with a literary agency that owned a subsidy publisher under a different name, and were offered pay-to-publish contracts after they'd received a number of rejections from commercial publishers.
          From Writers Beware: http://www.sfwa.org/Beware/subsidypublishers.html
          "As writers become more aware of the pitfalls of vanity/subsidy publishing, many pay-to-publish operations are trying dodge the vanity/subsidy label by switching their charges to areas other than printing and binding. I often hear from writers who are confused because they've been offered a contract by a publisher that describes itself as "traditional" or as a "small press" but wants them to make some kind of financial commitment.

          If asked, such publishers vehemently deny that they are vanity/subsidy operations--after all, they don't accept everyone who submits, and they aren't asking their authors to pay for printing their books. But the truth is that any publisher that requires you to contribute financially to the publication of your work is a vanity/subsidy publisher--i.e., a publisher that looks to its authors as its main source of income. As noted above, a publisher like this does not have a strong incentive to get books into the hands of readers, and is likely to spend little cash or effort on marketing or distribution.
          Here are some of the "alternative" charges you may encounter:
          A setup fee or deposit. Publishers that want you to pay a setup fee will tell you that you're not paying to publish, just contributing to the cost of preparing your book for printing, or making a "good faith investment" in your own success. Some publishers promise to refund the fee under certain circumstances (usually carefully crafted so they'll almost never be fulfilled).
          A pre-purchase requirement. Some publishers include a clause in their contract requiring you to purchase a set number of your books--often several thousand copies at a minimal discount. This can add up to many thousands of dollars, and often winds up being more expensive than straight vanity/subsidy publishing.
          A pre-sale requirement. You may be required to pre-sell a certain number of your books prior to publication. You don't have to buy them yourself--you can sell them to anyone you like--but you have to make the sales or the publishing deal is off. (This is an especially tricky variation on the pay-to-publish scheme, because it allows the publisher to claim that it's not asking you for cash. But it's not an author's job to hawk his/her own books--that's what the publisher is supposed to do.)
          A paid editing requirement. Some publishers don't charge to print and bind your book, but instead require you to pay several thousand dollars for editing (royalty publishers also provide pre-publication editing, but don't ask their authors to pay for it). The editing is usually minimal and not of professional quality.
          A requirement that you pay for publicity. Some publishers want you to finance a publicity campaign, either by paying them directly or by hiring someone from a list they provide (in which case they're probably paying a kickback, or else own the firm under a different name). As with paid editing, paid publicity of this sort is usually not worth the money.
          Pressure to purchase your own book for resale. This indicates a publisher whose main customer base is its own authors. While such publishers may not ask you for upfront money, they still expect you to provide the bulk of your own sales.

          Other things.... I know of one publisher that requires its authors to attend its own very expensive conference every year. Another binds advertisements into its books, and requires its authors to sell a minimum amount of ad space. Another requires its authors to hire its staff to design their book covers. The permutations are endless.

          Just be careful that you aren't being scammed when you don't have to be. Go to Writer Beware and check up on your publisher that you are paying and see if they've had any complaints filed against them. You can always go to Speculations and pose a question in the Caveat Scribner topic, also. Victoria will help you out.

          http://www.speculations.com/rumormill/index.php?t=200&show_all_topics=0



          As a curiosity, what was the name of the agent who was charging you fees? If he hasn't been reported to Preditors and Editors yet, maybe he should be.



          Matt


          "For better or worse, you have been marked."

          ---------------------------------
          Do you Yahoo!?
          The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo.

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


          Yahoo! Groups Sponsor



          To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
          fantasyfictiondungeon-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



          Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


          Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
          To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
          fantasyfictiondungeon-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



          Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


          "For better or worse, you have been marked."

          ---------------------------------
          Do you Yahoo!?
          The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo.

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • C Robert Cales
          Thanks, Matt. I don t mind at all. I really appreciate the help. It s Bawn Publisher Inc in West Chester, OH. If there s to be a lynching I get to bring the
          Message 4 of 11 , Apr 29, 2003
          • 0 Attachment
            Thanks, Matt. I don't mind at all. I really appreciate the help. It's Bawn Publisher Inc in West Chester, OH. If there's to be a lynching I get to bring the rope.

            Bob
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: Matt Baker
            To: fantasyfictiondungeon@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2003 2:54 PM
            Subject: Re: [Fantasy Fiction Dungeon] Cool looking place....


            Bob, if you don't mind, i'll report this guy and the publisher to Victoria and/or find out if anyone else has already reported him. I'll also do some market research for you for legitimate publishers and agents that deal with horror (that don't charge fees of course).

            C Robert Cales <meccrc@...> wrote:Matt, thanks for all the info. The agency was Bawn Publishers Literary Agency in a suburb of Cincinnati, Ohio. I can't think of the name of the town right this second. With respect to him it gets a little worse. He owed me a little royalty money, which the publisher sent to him by mistake after I was dropped and royalties assigned to me. It took me two months to send me my $114, then his check bounced. I'm ready to file criminal charges against him in the next few days if I don't get my money.

            Yeah, I wish somebody would report him (Willie E. Nason). I'll be a character witness at his trial.

            So, now you know where I am. Where does a guy go from here when the book in question is the next great horror novel? Yeah, Matt, regardless of all the bullshit, I still believe that in my heart. Amazing isn't it?

            Bob
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: Matt Baker
            To: fantasyfictiondungeon@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2003 11:05 AM
            Subject: Re: [Fantasy Fiction Dungeon] Cool looking place....


            Bob, Have you ever heard the adage that money flows to the writer, not away from? You should never pay an agent anything, they're supposed to make you money, not the other way around. Charging fees violates AAR guidelines. Most scam agents get their revenue by charging fees, not by selling books, because they can't sell any books. But you know that now, unfortunately. The same thing for vanity publishers and subsidy publishers. Here are some examples:
            One writer reported that she lost $10,000 to a vanity publisher that went into bankruptcy. More than 500 other writers were also affected. In addition to the money, she lost all her materials, including illustrations she'd provided for the book.
            Another paid more than $6,000 to two different subsidy publishers that failed to complete the same book project. One of the publishers talked the writer into forking over extra cash to make an accompanying videotape, and then required her--at her own expense--to provide a legal document exempting the publisher from any possibility of lawsuit before it would return her materials.
            Another shortened her manuscript from nearly 400 pages to under 300, at the publisher's request. This publisher presented itself as a legitimate small press; it wasn't until the contract arrived that the writer discovered she was expected to pay more than $8,000 for publication.
            Another writer is suing a British subsidy publisher that failed to market two books for which he paid a total of 9,600 pounds. He was never able to verify the number of books printed, and those he was able to find were of poor quality.
            Several others (all dealing with the same vanity/subsidy publisher) paid between $3,000 and $5,000 each for books that were never produced, despite extravagant promises. The publisher responded to their questions and expressions of concern with threats and verbal abuse.
            Still other writers signed up with a literary agency that owned a subsidy publisher under a different name, and were offered pay-to-publish contracts after they'd received a number of rejections from commercial publishers.
            From Writers Beware: http://www.sfwa.org/Beware/subsidypublishers.html
            "As writers become more aware of the pitfalls of vanity/subsidy publishing, many pay-to-publish operations are trying dodge the vanity/subsidy label by switching their charges to areas other than printing and binding. I often hear from writers who are confused because they've been offered a contract by a publisher that describes itself as "traditional" or as a "small press" but wants them to make some kind of financial commitment.

            If asked, such publishers vehemently deny that they are vanity/subsidy operations--after all, they don't accept everyone who submits, and they aren't asking their authors to pay for printing their books. But the truth is that any publisher that requires you to contribute financially to the publication of your work is a vanity/subsidy publisher--i.e., a publisher that looks to its authors as its main source of income. As noted above, a publisher like this does not have a strong incentive to get books into the hands of readers, and is likely to spend little cash or effort on marketing or distribution.
            Here are some of the "alternative" charges you may encounter:
            A setup fee or deposit. Publishers that want you to pay a setup fee will tell you that you're not paying to publish, just contributing to the cost of preparing your book for printing, or making a "good faith investment" in your own success. Some publishers promise to refund the fee under certain circumstances (usually carefully crafted so they'll almost never be fulfilled).
            A pre-purchase requirement. Some publishers include a clause in their contract requiring you to purchase a set number of your books--often several thousand copies at a minimal discount. This can add up to many thousands of dollars, and often winds up being more expensive than straight vanity/subsidy publishing.
            A pre-sale requirement. You may be required to pre-sell a certain number of your books prior to publication. You don't have to buy them yourself--you can sell them to anyone you like--but you have to make the sales or the publishing deal is off. (This is an especially tricky variation on the pay-to-publish scheme, because it allows the publisher to claim that it's not asking you for cash. But it's not an author's job to hawk his/her own books--that's what the publisher is supposed to do.)
            A paid editing requirement. Some publishers don't charge to print and bind your book, but instead require you to pay several thousand dollars for editing (royalty publishers also provide pre-publication editing, but don't ask their authors to pay for it). The editing is usually minimal and not of professional quality.
            A requirement that you pay for publicity. Some publishers want you to finance a publicity campaign, either by paying them directly or by hiring someone from a list they provide (in which case they're probably paying a kickback, or else own the firm under a different name). As with paid editing, paid publicity of this sort is usually not worth the money.
            Pressure to purchase your own book for resale. This indicates a publisher whose main customer base is its own authors. While such publishers may not ask you for upfront money, they still expect you to provide the bulk of your own sales.

            Other things.... I know of one publisher that requires its authors to attend its own very expensive conference every year. Another binds advertisements into its books, and requires its authors to sell a minimum amount of ad space. Another requires its authors to hire its staff to design their book covers. The permutations are endless.

            Just be careful that you aren't being scammed when you don't have to be. Go to Writer Beware and check up on your publisher that you are paying and see if they've had any complaints filed against them. You can always go to Speculations and pose a question in the Caveat Scribner topic, also. Victoria will help you out.

            http://www.speculations.com/rumormill/index.php?t=200&show_all_topics=0



            As a curiosity, what was the name of the agent who was charging you fees? If he hasn't been reported to Preditors and Editors yet, maybe he should be.



            Matt


            "For better or worse, you have been marked."

            ---------------------------------
            Do you Yahoo!?
            The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo.

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


            Yahoo! Groups Sponsor



            To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            fantasyfictiondungeon-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



            Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


            Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
            To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            fantasyfictiondungeon-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



            Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


            "For better or worse, you have been marked."

            ---------------------------------
            Do you Yahoo!?
            The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo.

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


            Yahoo! Groups Sponsor



            To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            fantasyfictiondungeon-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



            Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Matt Baker
            From looking up info on Bawn, they are not recommended by the SWFA because they charge fees. C Robert Cales wrote:Matt, thanks for all the
            Message 5 of 11 , Apr 29, 2003
            • 0 Attachment
              From looking up info on Bawn, they are not recommended by the SWFA because they charge fees.
              C Robert Cales <meccrc@...> wrote:Matt, thanks for all the info. The agency was Bawn Publishers Literary Agency in a suburb of Cincinnati, Ohio. I can't think of the name of the town right this second. With respect to him it gets a little worse. He owed me a little royalty money, which the publisher sent to him by mistake after I was dropped and royalties assigned to me. It took me two months to send me my $114, then his check bounced. I'm ready to file criminal charges against him in the next few days if I don't get my money.

              Yeah, I wish somebody would report him (Willie E. Nason). I'll be a character witness at his trial.

              So, now you know where I am. Where does a guy go from here when the book in question is the next great horror novel? Yeah, Matt, regardless of all the bullshit, I still believe that in my heart. Amazing isn't it?

              Bob
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Matt Baker
              To: fantasyfictiondungeon@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2003 11:05 AM
              Subject: Re: [Fantasy Fiction Dungeon] Cool looking place....


              Bob, Have you ever heard the adage that money flows to the writer, not away from? You should never pay an agent anything, they're supposed to make you money, not the other way around. Charging fees violates AAR guidelines. Most scam agents get their revenue by charging fees, not by selling books, because they can't sell any books. But you know that now, unfortunately. The same thing for vanity publishers and subsidy publishers. Here are some examples:
              One writer reported that she lost $10,000 to a vanity publisher that went into bankruptcy. More than 500 other writers were also affected. In addition to the money, she lost all her materials, including illustrations she'd provided for the book.
              Another paid more than $6,000 to two different subsidy publishers that failed to complete the same book project. One of the publishers talked the writer into forking over extra cash to make an accompanying videotape, and then required her--at her own expense--to provide a legal document exempting the publisher from any possibility of lawsuit before it would return her materials.
              Another shortened her manuscript from nearly 400 pages to under 300, at the publisher's request. This publisher presented itself as a legitimate small press; it wasn't until the contract arrived that the writer discovered she was expected to pay more than $8,000 for publication.
              Another writer is suing a British subsidy publisher that failed to market two books for which he paid a total of 9,600 pounds. He was never able to verify the number of books printed, and those he was able to find were of poor quality.
              Several others (all dealing with the same vanity/subsidy publisher) paid between $3,000 and $5,000 each for books that were never produced, despite extravagant promises. The publisher responded to their questions and expressions of concern with threats and verbal abuse.
              Still other writers signed up with a literary agency that owned a subsidy publisher under a different name, and were offered pay-to-publish contracts after they'd received a number of rejections from commercial publishers.
              From Writers Beware: http://www.sfwa.org/Beware/subsidypublishers.html
              "As writers become more aware of the pitfalls of vanity/subsidy publishing, many pay-to-publish operations are trying dodge the vanity/subsidy label by switching their charges to areas other than printing and binding. I often hear from writers who are confused because they've been offered a contract by a publisher that describes itself as "traditional" or as a "small press" but wants them to make some kind of financial commitment.

              If asked, such publishers vehemently deny that they are vanity/subsidy operations--after all, they don't accept everyone who submits, and they aren't asking their authors to pay for printing their books. But the truth is that any publisher that requires you to contribute financially to the publication of your work is a vanity/subsidy publisher--i.e., a publisher that looks to its authors as its main source of income. As noted above, a publisher like this does not have a strong incentive to get books into the hands of readers, and is likely to spend little cash or effort on marketing or distribution.
              Here are some of the "alternative" charges you may encounter:
              A setup fee or deposit. Publishers that want you to pay a setup fee will tell you that you're not paying to publish, just contributing to the cost of preparing your book for printing, or making a "good faith investment" in your own success. Some publishers promise to refund the fee under certain circumstances (usually carefully crafted so they'll almost never be fulfilled).
              A pre-purchase requirement. Some publishers include a clause in their contract requiring you to purchase a set number of your books--often several thousand copies at a minimal discount. This can add up to many thousands of dollars, and often winds up being more expensive than straight vanity/subsidy publishing.
              A pre-sale requirement. You may be required to pre-sell a certain number of your books prior to publication. You don't have to buy them yourself--you can sell them to anyone you like--but you have to make the sales or the publishing deal is off. (This is an especially tricky variation on the pay-to-publish scheme, because it allows the publisher to claim that it's not asking you for cash. But it's not an author's job to hawk his/her own books--that's what the publisher is supposed to do.)
              A paid editing requirement. Some publishers don't charge to print and bind your book, but instead require you to pay several thousand dollars for editing (royalty publishers also provide pre-publication editing, but don't ask their authors to pay for it). The editing is usually minimal and not of professional quality.
              A requirement that you pay for publicity. Some publishers want you to finance a publicity campaign, either by paying them directly or by hiring someone from a list they provide (in which case they're probably paying a kickback, or else own the firm under a different name). As with paid editing, paid publicity of this sort is usually not worth the money.
              Pressure to purchase your own book for resale. This indicates a publisher whose main customer base is its own authors. While such publishers may not ask you for upfront money, they still expect you to provide the bulk of your own sales.

              Other things.... I know of one publisher that requires its authors to attend its own very expensive conference every year. Another binds advertisements into its books, and requires its authors to sell a minimum amount of ad space. Another requires its authors to hire its staff to design their book covers. The permutations are endless.

              Just be careful that you aren't being scammed when you don't have to be. Go to Writer Beware and check up on your publisher that you are paying and see if they've had any complaints filed against them. You can always go to Speculations and pose a question in the Caveat Scribner topic, also. Victoria will help you out.

              http://www.speculations.com/rumormill/index.php?t=200&show_all_topics=0



              As a curiosity, what was the name of the agent who was charging you fees? If he hasn't been reported to Preditors and Editors yet, maybe he should be.



              Matt


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            • Matt
              From looking at Speculations, Bawn was listed by Ann as one of the dozen or so agencies to get an automatic ignore from major publishing houses for sending
              Message 6 of 11 , Apr 29, 2003
              • 0 Attachment
                From looking at Speculations, Bawn was listed by Ann as one of the
                dozen or so agencies to get an automatic ignore from major publishing
                houses for sending inappropriate or unsaleable material and for other
                unprofessional conduct.

                In other words, they had nothing good to say. Bawn has a habit of
                threatening to sue people if anyone raises the issue of them charging
                fees and scamming people. So, their fees are their income, not
                selling books, as i suspected. I'm sorry you got sucked in Bob. You
                aren't the first. See Also:

                Deering Literary Agency
                Commonwealth Publications
                Woodside Press
                Edit Ink

                http://www.sfwa.org/Beware/cases.html


                --- In fantasyfictiondungeon@yahoogroups.com, "C Robert Cales"
                <meccrc@w...> wrote:
                > Thanks, Matt. I don't mind at all. I really appreciate the help.
                It's Bawn Publisher Inc in West Chester, OH. If there's to be a
                lynching I get to bring the rope.
                >
                > Bob
                > ----- Original Message -----
                > From: Matt Baker
                > To: fantasyfictiondungeon@yahoogroups.com
                > Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2003 2:54 PM
                > Subject: Re: [Fantasy Fiction Dungeon] Cool looking place....
                >
                >
                > Bob, if you don't mind, i'll report this guy and the publisher to
                Victoria and/or find out if anyone else has already reported him.
                I'll also do some market research for you for legitimate publishers
                and agents that deal with horror (that don't charge fees of course).
                >
                > C Robert Cales <meccrc@w...> wrote:Matt, thanks for all the info.
                The agency was Bawn Publishers Literary Agency in a suburb of
                Cincinnati, Ohio. I can't think of the name of the town right this
                second. With respect to him it gets a little worse. He owed me a
                little royalty money, which the publisher sent to him by mistake
                after I was dropped and royalties assigned to me. It took me two
                months to send me my $114, then his check bounced. I'm ready to file
                criminal charges against him in the next few days if I don't get my
                money.
                >
                > Yeah, I wish somebody would report him (Willie E. Nason). I'll be
                a character witness at his trial.
                >
                > So, now you know where I am. Where does a guy go from here when
                the book in question is the next great horror novel? Yeah, Matt,
                regardless of all the bullshit, I still believe that in my heart.
                Amazing isn't it?
                >
                > Bob
                > ----- Original Message -----
                > From: Matt Baker
                > To: fantasyfictiondungeon@yahoogroups.com
                > Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2003 11:05 AM
                > Subject: Re: [Fantasy Fiction Dungeon] Cool looking place....
                >
                >
                > Bob, Have you ever heard the adage that money flows to the
                writer, not away from? You should never pay an agent anything,
                they're supposed to make you money, not the other way around.
                Charging fees violates AAR guidelines. Most scam agents get their
                revenue by charging fees, not by selling books, because they can't
                sell any books. But you know that now, unfortunately. The same thing
                for vanity publishers and subsidy publishers. Here are some examples:
                > One writer reported that she lost $10,000 to a vanity
                publisher that went into bankruptcy. More than 500 other writers were
                also affected. In addition to the money, she lost all her materials,
                including illustrations she'd provided for the book.
                > Another paid more than $6,000 to two different subsidy
                publishers that failed to complete the same book project. One of the
                publishers talked the writer into forking over extra cash to make an
                accompanying videotape, and then required her--at her own expense--to
                provide a legal document exempting the publisher from any possibility
                of lawsuit before it would return her materials.
                > Another shortened her manuscript from nearly 400 pages to
                under 300, at the publisher's request. This publisher presented
                itself as a legitimate small press; it wasn't until the contract
                arrived that the writer discovered she was expected to pay more than
                $8,000 for publication.
                > Another writer is suing a British subsidy publisher that
                failed to market two books for which he paid a total of 9,600 pounds.
                He was never able to verify the number of books printed, and those he
                was able to find were of poor quality.
                > Several others (all dealing with the same vanity/subsidy
                publisher) paid between $3,000 and $5,000 each for books that were
                never produced, despite extravagant promises. The publisher responded
                to their questions and expressions of concern with threats and verbal
                abuse.
                > Still other writers signed up with a literary agency that
                owned a subsidy publisher under a different name, and were offered
                pay-to-publish contracts after they'd received a number of rejections
                from commercial publishers.
                > From Writers Beware:
                http://www.sfwa.org/Beware/subsidypublishers.html
                > "As writers become more aware of the pitfalls of vanity/subsidy
                publishing, many pay-to-publish operations are trying dodge the
                vanity/subsidy label by switching their charges to areas other than
                printing and binding. I often hear from writers who are confused
                because they've been offered a contract by a publisher that describes
                itself as "traditional" or as a "small press" but wants them to make
                some kind of financial commitment.
                >
                > If asked, such publishers vehemently deny that they are
                vanity/subsidy operations--after all, they don't accept everyone who
                submits, and they aren't asking their authors to pay for printing
                their books. But the truth is that any publisher that requires you to
                contribute financially to the publication of your work is a
                vanity/subsidy publisher--i.e., a publisher that looks to its authors
                as its main source of income. As noted above, a publisher like this
                does not have a strong incentive to get books into the hands of
                readers, and is likely to spend little cash or effort on marketing or
                distribution.
                > Here are some of the "alternative" charges you may encounter:
                > A setup fee or deposit. Publishers that want you to pay a
                setup fee will tell you that you're not paying to publish, just
                contributing to the cost of preparing your book for printing, or
                making a "good faith investment" in your own success. Some publishers
                promise to refund the fee under certain circumstances (usually
                carefully crafted so they'll almost never be fulfilled).
                > A pre-purchase requirement. Some publishers include a clause
                in their contract requiring you to purchase a set number of your
                books--often several thousand copies at a minimal discount. This can
                add up to many thousands of dollars, and often winds up being more
                expensive than straight vanity/subsidy publishing.
                > A pre-sale requirement. You may be required to pre-sell a
                certain number of your books prior to publication. You don't have to
                buy them yourself--you can sell them to anyone you like--but you have
                to make the sales or the publishing deal is off. (This is an
                especially tricky variation on the pay-to-publish scheme, because it
                allows the publisher to claim that it's not asking you for cash. But
                it's not an author's job to hawk his/her own books--that's what the
                publisher is supposed to do.)
                > A paid editing requirement. Some publishers don't charge to
                print and bind your book, but instead require you to pay several
                thousand dollars for editing (royalty publishers also provide pre-
                publication editing, but don't ask their authors to pay for it). The
                editing is usually minimal and not of professional quality.
                > A requirement that you pay for publicity. Some publishers
                want you to finance a publicity campaign, either by paying them
                directly or by hiring someone from a list they provide (in which case
                they're probably paying a kickback, or else own the firm under a
                different name). As with paid editing, paid publicity of this sort is
                usually not worth the money.
                > Pressure to purchase your own book for resale. This
                indicates a publisher whose main customer base is its own authors.
                While such publishers may not ask you for upfront money, they still
                expect you to provide the bulk of your own sales.
                >
                > Other things.... I know of one publisher that requires its
                authors to attend its own very expensive conference every year.
                Another binds advertisements into its books, and requires its authors
                to sell a minimum amount of ad space. Another requires its authors to
                hire its staff to design their book covers. The permutations are
                endless.
                >
                > Just be careful that you aren't being scammed when you don't
                have to be. Go to Writer Beware and check up on your publisher that
                you are paying and see if they've had any complaints filed against
                them. You can always go to Speculations and pose a question in the
                Caveat Scribner topic, also. Victoria will help you out.
                >
                > http://www.speculations.com/rumormill/index.php?
                t=200&show_all_topics=0
                >
                >
                >
                > As a curiosity, what was the name of the agent who was charging
                you fees? If he hasn't been reported to Preditors and Editors yet,
                maybe he should be.
                >
                >
                >
                > Matt
                >
                >
                > "For better or worse, you have been marked."
                >
                > ---------------------------------
                > Do you Yahoo!?
                > The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo.
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >
                > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                >
                >
                >
                > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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                >
                >
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                >
                >
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                > "For better or worse, you have been marked."
                >
                > ---------------------------------
                > Do you Yahoo!?
                > The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo.
                >
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