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Re: [Fantasy Fiction Dungeon] Today's blog about ebook piracy

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  • Jeff Cherpeski
    If I buy an e-book, I should be able to do with it as I please.  Even if that means reselling it, though I am not advocating piracy.  DRM is dying a slow
    Message 1 of 7 , Dec 31, 2008
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      If I buy an e-book, I should be able to do with it as I please.  Even if that means reselling it, though I am not advocating piracy.  DRM is dying a slow death, and it will actually be good for it to die.

      --- On Wed, 12/31/08, Mark Terence Chapman <MarkTerenceChapman@...> wrote:
      From: Mark Terence Chapman <MarkTerenceChapman@...>
      Subject: [Fantasy Fiction Dungeon] Today's blog about ebook piracy
      To: fantasyfictiondungeon@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Wednesday, December 31, 2008, 10:56 AM











      I blogged today about the growing problem of ebook theft: sharing or

      reselling ebooks. The blog entry includes a link to the

      AuthorsAgainstE- BookTheft Yahoo group, for any readers who wish to

      report a piracy site. Here's the url for the blog entry:



      <http://tesserene. blogspot. com/2008/ 12/ebook- resales-good- or-bad-idea. ht\

      ml>

      <http://tesserene. blogspot. com/2008/ 12/ebook- resales-good- or-bad-idea. ht\

      ml>

      http://tesserene. blogspot. com/2008/ 12/ebook- resales-good- or-bad-idea. htm\

      l

      <http://tesserene. blogspot. com/2008/ 12/ebook- resales-good- or-bad-idea. ht\

      ml>



      Mark.



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





























      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Mark Chapman
      ... that means reselling it, though I am not advocating piracy. Jeff: Consider the following scenario: You ve written a book. One day, you notice that someone
      Message 2 of 7 , Jan 3, 2009
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        >>>>If I buy an e-book, I should be able to do with it as I please. Even if
        that means reselling it, though I am not advocating piracy.

        Jeff: Consider the following scenario: You've written a book. One day, you
        notice that someone is selling 10 paperback copies on eBay. That's good
        news, because it means they bought 10 copies from your publisher and they
        have ten copies to sell.

        Okay, so now change that scenario to ebooks. Hmm. Did he buy 10 copies, or
        only 1? Or did he buy a copy at all? Maybe he got a copy from a friend. And
        who say's he'll stop at selling 10 copies. Maybe he'll sell 500 over time.
        Did you get royalties for ANY of those copies? Not if he didn't buy them
        from the publisher.

        I have no problem with readers making backup copies, or sharing a copy with
        their immediate family. (After all, we all do that with print books.) But
        when it comes to uploading a copy to a website for the enjoyment of hundreds
        or thousands of other people, with no compensation to the author, that's
        where I draw the line.)

        I recently heard about a website that charges a "membership fee" to join and
        download from a library of thousands of copyrighted books. So the website is
        benefiting from the books, but the authors aren't. How is that fair? There's
        a torrent site I came across that has over *15,000* books available for free
        download. So this isn't a little problem we're talking about, with a few
        people sharing books with their friends. It's systematic, large-scale
        piracy.

        Mark.

        On Wed, Dec 31, 2008 at 8:53 PM, Jeff Cherpeski <jcherper@...> wrote:

        > If I buy an e-book, I should be able to do with it as I please. Even if
        > that means reselling it, though I am not advocating piracy. DRM is dying a
        > slow death, and it will actually be good for it to die.
        >
        > --- On Wed, 12/31/08, Mark Terence Chapman <MarkTerenceChapman@...<MarkTerenceChapman%40gmail.com>>
        > wrote:
        > From: Mark Terence Chapman <MarkTerenceChapman@...<MarkTerenceChapman%40gmail.com>
        > >
        > Subject: [Fantasy Fiction Dungeon] Today's blog about ebook piracy
        > To: fantasyfictiondungeon@yahoogroups.com<fantasyfictiondungeon%40yahoogroups.com>
        > Date: Wednesday, December 31, 2008, 10:56 AM
        >
        >
        > I blogged today about the growing problem of ebook theft: sharing or
        >
        > reselling ebooks. The blog entry includes a link to the
        >
        > AuthorsAgainstE- BookTheft Yahoo group, for any readers who wish to
        >
        > report a piracy site. Here's the url for the blog entry:
        >
        > <http://tesserene. blogspot. com/2008/ 12/ebook- resales-good-
        > or-bad-idea. ht\
        >
        > ml>
        >
        > <http://tesserene. blogspot. com/2008/ 12/ebook- resales-good-
        > or-bad-idea. ht\
        >
        > ml>
        >
        > http://tesserene. blogspot. com/2008/ 12/ebook- resales-good- or-bad-idea.
        > htm\
        >
        > l
        >
        > <http://tesserene. blogspot. com/2008/ 12/ebook- resales-good-
        > or-bad-idea. ht\
        >
        > ml>
        >
        > Mark.
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
        >



        --
        Mark Terence Chapman
        - The Mars Imperative (2007)
        - The World Outside the Window anthology (RJ Buckley, January 2009)
        - Sunrise Destiny (Red Rose, 1Q/2009)
        - Harvey-467 Makes a Bride (Red Rose, 1Q/2009)
        Web: http://tesserene.com; Blog: http://tesserene.blogspot.com


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • jcherper
        The simple solution is to not sell e-books. If you think torrents are bad check out IRC, easily more than any website. E-books are easy to copy and
        Message 3 of 7 , Jan 3, 2009
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          The simple solution is to not sell e-books. If you think torrents are
          bad check out IRC, easily more than any website. E-books are easy to
          copy and distribute, that is the problem with the media. If you don't
          want to see your hard work end up on the internet for free you need to
          avoid the whole method of publishing.




          --- In fantasyfictiondungeon@yahoogroups.com, "Mark Chapman"
          arkTerenceChapman@...> wrote
          >
          > >>>>If I buy an e-book, I should be able to do with it as I please.
          Even if
          > that means reselling it, though I am not advocating piracy.
          >
          > Jeff: Consider the following scenario: You've written a book. One
          day, you
          > notice that someone is selling 10 paperback copies on eBay. That's good
          > news, because it means they bought 10 copies from your publisher and
          they
          > have ten copies to sell.
          >
          > Okay, so now change that scenario to ebooks. Hmm. Did he buy 10
          copies, or
          > only 1? Or did he buy a copy at all? Maybe he got a copy from a
          friend. And
          > who say's he'll stop at selling 10 copies. Maybe he'll sell 500 over
          time.
          > Did you get royalties for ANY of those copies? Not if he didn't buy them
          > from the publisher.
          >
          > I have no problem with readers making backup copies, or sharing a
          copy with
          > their immediate family. (After all, we all do that with print
          books.) But
          > when it comes to uploading a copy to a website for the enjoyment of
          hundreds
          > or thousands of other people, with no compensation to the author, that's
          > where I draw the line.)
          >
          > I recently heard about a website that charges a "membership fee" to
          join and
          > download from a library of thousands of copyrighted books. So the
          website is
          > benefiting from the books, but the authors aren't. How is that fair?
          There's
          > a torrent site I came across that has over *15,000* books available
          for free
          > download. So this isn't a little problem we're talking about, with a few
          > people sharing books with their friends. It's systematic, large-scale
          > piracy.
          >
          > Mark.
          >
          > On Wed, Dec 31, 2008 at 8:53 PM, Jeff Cherpeski <jcherper@...> wrote:
          >
          > > If I buy an e-book, I should be able to do with it as I please.
          Even if
          > > that means reselling it, though I am not advocating piracy. DRM
          is dying a
          > > slow death, and it will actually be good for it to die.
          > >
          > > --- On Wed, 12/31/08, Mark Terence Chapman
          <MarkTerenceChapman@...<MarkTerenceChapman%40gmail.com>>
          > > wrote:
          > > From: Mark Terence Chapman
          <MarkTerenceChapman@...<MarkTerenceChapman%40gmail.com>
          > > >
          > > Subject: [Fantasy Fiction Dungeon] Today's blog about ebook piracy
          > > To:
          fantasyfictiondungeon@yahoogroups.com<fantasyfictiondungeon%40yahoogroups.com>
          > > Date: Wednesday, December 31, 2008, 10:56 AM
          > >
          > >
          > > I blogged today about the growing problem of ebook theft: sharing or
          > >
          > > reselling ebooks. The blog entry includes a link to the
          > >
          > > AuthorsAgainstE- BookTheft Yahoo group, for any readers who wish to
          > >
          > > report a piracy site. Here's the url for the blog entry:
          > >
          > > <http://tesserene. blogspot. com/2008/ 12/ebook- resales-good-
          > > or-bad-idea. ht\
          > >
          > > ml>
          > >
          > > <http://tesserene. blogspot. com/2008/ 12/ebook- resales-good-
          > > or-bad-idea. ht\
          > >
          > > ml>
          > >
          > > http://tesserene. blogspot. com/2008/ 12/ebook- resales-good-
          or-bad-idea.
          > > htm\
          > >
          > > l
          > >
          > > <http://tesserene. blogspot. com/2008/ 12/ebook- resales-good-
          > > or-bad-idea. ht\
          > >
          > > ml>
          > >
          > > Mark.
          > >
          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > >
          > >
          > >
          >
          >
          >
          > --
          > Mark Terence Chapman
          > - The Mars Imperative (2007)
          > - The World Outside the Window anthology (RJ Buckley, January 2009)
          > - Sunrise Destiny (Red Rose, 1Q/2009)
          > - Harvey-467 Makes a Bride (Red Rose, 1Q/2009)
          > Web: http://tesserene.com; Blog: http://tesserene.blogspot.com
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
        • Mark Chapman
          ... you need to avoid the whole method of publishing. I suppose your advice to musicians is not to record music, because people pirate CDs. And DVDs, and
          Message 4 of 7 , Jan 3, 2009
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            >>>>If you don't want to see your hard work end up on the internet for free
            you need to avoid the whole method of publishing.

            I suppose your advice to musicians is not to record music, because people
            pirate CDs. And DVDs, and software, and video games.

            eBooks aren't going away. On the contrary. Eventually, there won't be any
            more printed books. They'll be too costly, and ebooks are just too
            convenient. (An entire library can fit inside one ebook reader. You can't
            get more convenient than that.)

            The best solution is to educate the consumer, so that they don't think
            sharing ebooks (or CDs, DVDs, etc.) with the world is okay and harmless.

            Mark.

            On Sat, Jan 3, 2009 at 10:18 PM, jcherper <jcherper@...> wrote:

            > The simple solution is to not sell e-books. If you think torrents are
            > bad check out IRC, easily more than any website. E-books are easy to
            > copy and distribute, that is the problem with the media. If you don't
            > want to see your hard work end up on the internet for free you need to
            > avoid the whole method of publishing.
            >
            > --- In fantasyfictiondungeon@yahoogroups.com<fantasyfictiondungeon%40yahoogroups.com>,
            > "Mark Chapman"
            > arkTerenceChapman@...> wrote
            >
            > >
            > > >>>>If I buy an e-book, I should be able to do with it as I please.
            > Even if
            > > that means reselling it, though I am not advocating piracy.
            > >
            > > Jeff: Consider the following scenario: You've written a book. One
            > day, you
            > > notice that someone is selling 10 paperback copies on eBay. That's good
            > > news, because it means they bought 10 copies from your publisher and
            > they
            > > have ten copies to sell.
            > >
            > > Okay, so now change that scenario to ebooks. Hmm. Did he buy 10
            > copies, or
            > > only 1? Or did he buy a copy at all? Maybe he got a copy from a
            > friend. And
            > > who say's he'll stop at selling 10 copies. Maybe he'll sell 500 over
            > time.
            > > Did you get royalties for ANY of those copies? Not if he didn't buy them
            > > from the publisher.
            > >
            > > I have no problem with readers making backup copies, or sharing a
            > copy with
            > > their immediate family. (After all, we all do that with print
            > books.) But
            > > when it comes to uploading a copy to a website for the enjoyment of
            > hundreds
            > > or thousands of other people, with no compensation to the author, that's
            > > where I draw the line.)
            > >
            > > I recently heard about a website that charges a "membership fee" to
            > join and
            > > download from a library of thousands of copyrighted books. So the
            > website is
            > > benefiting from the books, but the authors aren't. How is that fair?
            > There's
            > > a torrent site I came across that has over *15,000* books available
            > for free
            > > download. So this isn't a little problem we're talking about, with a few
            > > people sharing books with their friends. It's systematic, large-scale
            > > piracy.
            > >
            > > Mark.
            > >
            > > On Wed, Dec 31, 2008 at 8:53 PM, Jeff Cherpeski <jcherper@...> wrote:
            > >
            > > > If I buy an e-book, I should be able to do with it as I please.
            > Even if
            > > > that means reselling it, though I am not advocating piracy. DRM
            > is dying a
            > > > slow death, and it will actually be good for it to die.
            > > >
            > > > --- On Wed, 12/31/08, Mark Terence Chapman
            > <MarkTerenceChapman@...<MarkTerenceChapman%40gmail.com>>
            > > > wrote:
            > > > From: Mark Terence Chapman
            > <MarkTerenceChapman@...<MarkTerenceChapman%40gmail.com>
            > > > >
            > > > Subject: [Fantasy Fiction Dungeon] Today's blog about ebook piracy
            > > > To:
            > fantasyfictiondungeon@yahoogroups.com<fantasyfictiondungeon%40yahoogroups.com>
            > <fantasyfictiondungeon%40yahoogroups.com>
            > > > Date: Wednesday, December 31, 2008, 10:56 AM
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > I blogged today about the growing problem of ebook theft: sharing or
            > > >
            > > > reselling ebooks. The blog entry includes a link to the
            > > >
            > > > AuthorsAgainstE- BookTheft Yahoo group, for any readers who wish to
            > > >
            > > > report a piracy site. Here's the url for the blog entry:
            > > >
            > > > <http://tesserene. blogspot. com/2008/ 12/ebook- resales-good-
            > > > or-bad-idea. ht\
            > > >
            > > > ml>
            > > >
            > > > <http://tesserene. blogspot. com/2008/ 12/ebook- resales-good-
            > > > or-bad-idea. ht\
            > > >
            > > > ml>
            > > >
            > > > http://tesserene. blogspot. com/2008/ 12/ebook- resales-good-
            > or-bad-idea.
            > > > htm\
            > > >
            > > > l
            > > >
            > > > <http://tesserene. blogspot. com/2008/ 12/ebook- resales-good-
            > > > or-bad-idea. ht\
            > > >
            > > > ml>
            > > >
            > > > Mark.
            > > >
            > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > --
            > > Mark Terence Chapman
            > > - The Mars Imperative (2007)
            > > - The World Outside the Window anthology (RJ Buckley, January 2009)
            > > - Sunrise Destiny (Red Rose, 1Q/2009)
            > > - Harvey-467 Makes a Bride (Red Rose, 1Q/2009)
            > > Web: http://tesserene.com; Blog: http://tesserene.blogspot.com
            > >
            > >
            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > >
            >
            >
            >



            --
            Mark Terence Chapman
            - The Mars Imperative (2007)
            - The World Outside the Window anthology (RJ Buckley, January 2009)
            - Sunrise Destiny (Red Rose, 1Q/2009)
            - Harvey-467 Makes a Bride (Red Rose, 1Q/2009)
            Web: http://tesserene.com; Blog: http://tesserene.blogspot.com


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • jcherper
            Until there is an e-book reader that is actually convenient and reasonable to use (Kindle is close, but who will pay $300.00?) e-books are going to be a fringe
            Message 5 of 7 , Jan 3, 2009
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              Until there is an e-book reader that is actually convenient and
              reasonable to use (Kindle is close, but who will pay $300.00?) e-books
              are going to be a fringe market. Right now I have a number of e-books
              (most tech books come with a PDF version) but I don't use the e-book.
              Too much of a pain to make notes, or study with. I might print out a
              chapter or two, if I am going somewhere and don't want the whole book,
              but otherwise it sits in the sleeve.

              As for music, the RIAA is losing the battle. Wal-mart.com, Amazon.com
              and others (even iTunes on a limited basis) are no longer selling DRM
              mp3s. The mp3s you get from them have no rights management. You can
              put them on any number of devices or burn them to your hearts content,
              there are no limits, unlike iTunes which limits you to a set number (5
              I believe) of usages. The non-DRM sales are surpassing the DRM sales.
              People want to do what they want with things they buy.

              Educating people is never going to work as long as people believe they
              have the right to the product they bought. Microsoft found out that
              people don't like intrusive activation, the public outcry made them
              change how Windows Vista activates. The music industry is finding out
              that same lesson.

              Publishing is still not there and may not get there as actual printing
              will not go away too soon. E-books are not going to make large
              printing houses go away from still offering the book in actual paper.
              The profit to cost is still great enough to warrant printing of books.
              It is for the small publishing houses, those are the ones that can't
              make a go in the industry any more.

              Will the loss of these small publishers impact most readers? Probably
              not. I don't know the last time that I bought something that I could
              not find at Costco or Borders/Barnes and Noble.

              --- In fantasyfictiondungeon@yahoogroups.com, "Mark Chapman"
              <MarkTerenceChapman@...> wrote:
              >
              > >>>>If you don't want to see your hard work end up on the internet
              for free
              > you need to avoid the whole method of publishing.
              >
              > I suppose your advice to musicians is not to record music, because
              people
              > pirate CDs. And DVDs, and software, and video games.
              >
              > eBooks aren't going away. On the contrary. Eventually, there won't
              be any
              > more printed books. They'll be too costly, and ebooks are just too
              > convenient. (An entire library can fit inside one ebook reader. You
              can't
              > get more convenient than that.)
              >
              > The best solution is to educate the consumer, so that they don't think
              > sharing ebooks (or CDs, DVDs, etc.) with the world is okay and harmless.
              >
            • Mark Terence Chapman
              I ve combined my responses to a couple of different posts in this one reply. (I hope you don t mind.) Comment: Until there is an e-book reader that is actually
              Message 6 of 7 , Jan 4, 2009
              • 0 Attachment
                I've combined my responses to a couple of different posts in this one
                reply. (I hope you don't mind.)

                Comment: Until there is an e-book reader that is actually convenient
                and reasonable to use (Kindle is close, but who will pay $300.00?)
                e-books are going to be a fringe market.

                My response: I agree, but that's changing quickly. The quality of the
                screen, the battery life, and the ease of use are already much better
                than they were three years ago, and the prices will keep dropping.
                (Probably under $50 in a few years. Look at DVD players, which were
                over $500 a few years ago) I think within the next five years ebook
                readers will reach the tipping point, where they're good enough and
                cheap enough that people will buy them in droves for the convenience.
                Look at iPhones. They're ridiculously expensive, but people buy them
                because of what they can do. A few years ago, iPods were the same way.
                But now there are lower-end models that are affordable, and everyone
                seems to have one. eBook readers will be the same way.

                Comment: People want to do what they want with things they buy.

                My response: Of course. And they should be able to, within reason. But
                I think being able to sell 500 copies of something they paid for one
                copy of is unreasonable, yet some pirates are doing exactly that.

                Comment: Educating people is never going to work as long as people
                believe they
                have the right to the product they bought

                My response: That's exactly the point of the education, to open
                people's eyes and get them to understand that what some people are
                doing is wrong. The PETA ads and others of that type have opened
                people's eyes to animal cruelty. Fur sales are down, and animal
                testing of cosmetics has pretty much been abolished.

                You know what they say about locks only keeping honest people honest.
                If everyone thinks it's okay to share ebooks with everyone they know
                (and some they don't), then the book industry is done for, because
                eventually all books will be sold that way. The revenue stream will
                dry up if books are routinely pirated. But if we can make readers
                understand that they are hurting the book industry (authors and
                publishers alike), most people (the honest ones) will stop posting
                ebooks to websites for widespread distribution. The publishing
                industry can take action against relatively few pirates, but not
                against millions of otherwise law-abiding citizens who each upload a
                few books.

                Objection: I've seen e-books for $25, so they're not even cheap. I
                guess the author and/or publisher figures people will pay $25 for a
                hardcover, so why shouldn't they charge the same?

                My response: I'm sure there are exceptions, but most ebooks are
                significantly cheaper than the equivalent print book. Check out
                fictionwise.com.

                Comment: E-books are not going to make large printing houses go away
                from still offering the book in actual paper. The profit to cost is
                still great enough to warrant printing of books.

                My response: I agree that ebooks aren't going to make large publishers
                stop printing books. The cost of printing and shipping them will do
                that. In the past year, many of these publishers had to lay off
                employees, merge with other publishing houses, and even cut mid-list
                authors, because they were losing money or barely getting by. The
                picture isn't as rosy as you seem to think. The publishers can't keep
                laying people off to save money, because a certain minimum number are
                required to do the job effectively. (If you've read any books lately,
                you've probably noticed that the editing quality of some of them is
                aready suffering, with frequent grammatical and spelling errors that I
                never used to see from the big houses.)

                As a result, they'll start offering ebooks as a cost-saving
                alternative to print. Oh, they'll bill it as a way for consumers to
                save money, but it'll really be to save them money. Costs will be ower
                and profits higher. And they'll start promoting the hell out of ebooks.

                Consider the various costs incurred by publishers: editing, designing
                covers, printing (printing machines, paper, and toner/ink), shipping,
                advertising, etc. All of these are incurred by print books. But with
                ebooks, you can eliminate the printing and shipping costs. Everything
                else should remain the same. We all saw what happened to the cost of
                food and almost everything else when fuel prices skyrocketed last
                year. A large part of the price increases was due to the higher cost
                of shipping. (After all, trucks, airplanes, and ships all use that
                expensive fuel.)

                Sure, fuel prices have dropped back to more reasonable levels, but for
                how long? The next mid-East crisis or whatever can send them up again.
                And fossil fuels will only get dearer as the supply diminishes. But
                those are costs that go away entirely with ebooks (along with the
                costs for paper and those multimillion-dollar high-speed printers).

                The consumers won't be quick to switch--many of them won't unless
                forced to. But eventually the only way they'll be able to find certain
                books will be in electronic form, and they won't have any choice but
                to do so. When that point is reached, it's just a matter of time until
                all books are only offered that way.

                And it's not a bad thing. All those back-list titles that are out of
                print can be reissued, because with no printing costs (they've already
                been edited and the covers designed), there's no reason not to offer
                them if there's even minimal demand.

                All this won't happen in five years, perhaps not ten. But I don't
                think we'll see any more print books (except possibly special edition
                hardbacks) 20 years from now. (Do you buy many albums on cassette tape
                these days? I don't think video tapes will be sold much longer, either.)

                Everything's going digital: TV, music, movies, cellphones, and now books.

                Mark.

                --- In fantasyfictiondungeon@yahoogroups.com, "jcherper"
                <jcherper@...> wrote:
                >
                > Until there is an e-book reader that is actually convenient and
                > reasonable to use (Kindle is close, but who will pay $300.00?) e-books
                > are going to be a fringe market. Right now I have a number of e-books
                > (most tech books come with a PDF version) but I don't use the e-book.
                > Too much of a pain to make notes, or study with. I might print out a
                > chapter or two, if I am going somewhere and don't want the whole book,
                > but otherwise it sits in the sleeve.
                >
                [etc.....]
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