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Note From Robert Jordan about his medical condition

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  • Matt
    Important note from Robert Jordan: March 25, 2006, I have been diagnosed with amyloidosis. That is a rare blood disease which affects only 8 people out of a
    Message 1 of 21 , Mar 24, 2006
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      Important note from Robert Jordan: March 25, 2006,

      I have been diagnosed with amyloidosis. That is a rare blood disease
      which affects only 8 people out of a million each year, and those 8
      per million are divided among 22 distinct forms of amyloidosis. They
      are distinct enough that while some have no treatment at all, for
      the others, the treatment that works on one will have no effect
      whatsoever on any of the rest. An amyloid is a misshapen or
      misfolded protein that can be produced by various parts of the body
      and which may deposit in other parts of the body (nerves or organs)
      with varying effects. (As a small oddity, amyloids are associated
      with a wide list of diseases ranging from carpal tunnel syndrome to
      Alzheimer's. There's no current evidence of cause and effect, and
      none of these is considered any form of amyloidosis, but the
      amyloids are always there. So it is entirely possible that research
      on amyloids may one day lead to cures for Alzheimer's and the Lord
      knows what else. I've offered to be a literary poster boy for the
      Mayo Amyloidosis Program, and the May PR Department, at least, seems
      very interested. Plus, I've discovered a number of fans in various
      positions at the clinic, so maybe they'll help out.)

      Now in my case, what I have is primary amyloidosis with
      cardiomyapathy. That means that some (only about 5% at present) of
      my bone marrow is producing amyloids which are depositing in the
      wall of my heart, causing it to thicken and stiffen. Untreated, it
      would eventually make my heart unable to function any longer and I
      would have a median life expectancy of one year from diagnosis.
      Fortunately, I am set up for treatment, which expands my median life
      expectancy to four years. This does NOT mean I have four years to
      live. For those who've forgotten their freshman or pre-freshman
      (high school or junior high) math, a median means half the numbers
      fall above that value and half fall below. It is NOT an average.

      In any case, I intend to live considerably longer than that.
      Everybody knows or has heard of someone who was told they had five
      years to live, only that was twenty years ago and here they guy is,
      still around and kicking. I mean to beat him. I sat down and figured
      out how long it would take me to write all of the books I currently
      have in mind, without adding anything new and without trying rush
      anything. The figure I came up with was thirty years. Now, I'm fifty-
      seven, so anyone my age hoping for another thirty years is asking
      for a fair bit, but I don't care. That is my minimum goal. I am
      going to finish those books, all of them, and that is that.

      My treatment starts in about 2 weeks at the Mayo Clinic in
      Rochester, Minnesota, where they have seen and treated more cases
      like mine than anywhere else in the US. Basically, it boils down to
      this. They will harvest a good quantity of my bone marrow stem cells
      from my blood. These aren't the stem cells that have Bush and Cheney
      in a swivet; they can only grow into bone marrow, and only into my
      bone marrow at that. Then will follow two days of intense
      chemotherapy to kill off all of my bone marrow, since there is no
      way at present to target just the misbehaving 5%. Once this is done,
      they will re-implant my bmsc to begin rebuilding my bone marrow and
      immune system, which will of course go south with the bone marrow.
      Depending on how long it takes me to recuperate sufficiently, 6 to 8
      weeks after checking in, I can come home. I will have a fifty-fifty
      chance of some good result (25% chance of remission; 25% chance of
      some reduction in amyloid production), a 35-40% chance of no result,
      and a 10-15% chance of fatality. Believe me, that's a Hell of a lot
      better than staring down the barrel of a one-year median. If I get
      less than full remission, my doctor already, she says, has several
      therapies in mind, though I suspect we will heading into
      experimental territory. If that is where this takes me, however, so
      be it. I have thirty more years worth of books to write even if I
      can keep from thinking of any more, and I don't intend to let this
      thing get in my way.

      - Robert Jordan
    • Jeff Cherpeski
      Well, if he lives the 4 years, he might cover another 2 weeks in his novels. Matt wrote: Important note from Robert Jordan: March 25,
      Message 2 of 21 , Mar 24, 2006
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        Well, if he lives the 4 years, he might cover another 2 weeks in his novels.

        Matt <gauvaine@...> wrote: Important note from Robert Jordan: March 25, 2006,

        I have been diagnosed with amyloidosis. That is a rare blood disease
        which affects only 8 people out of a million each year, and those 8
        per million are divided among 22 distinct forms of amyloidosis. They
        are distinct enough that while some have no treatment at all, for
        the others, the treatment that works on one will have no effect
        whatsoever on any of the rest. An amyloid is a misshapen or
        misfolded protein that can be produced by various parts of the body
        and which may deposit in other parts of the body (nerves or organs)
        with varying effects. (As a small oddity, amyloids are associated
        with a wide list of diseases ranging from carpal tunnel syndrome to
        Alzheimer's. There's no current evidence of cause and effect, and
        none of these is considered any form of amyloidosis, but the
        amyloids are always there. So it is entirely possible that research
        on amyloids may one day lead to cures for Alzheimer's and the Lord
        knows what else. I've offered to be a literary poster boy for the
        Mayo Amyloidosis Program, and the May PR Department, at least, seems
        very interested. Plus, I've discovered a number of fans in various
        positions at the clinic, so maybe they'll help out.)

        Now in my case, what I have is primary amyloidosis with
        cardiomyapathy. That means that some (only about 5% at present) of
        my bone marrow is producing amyloids which are depositing in the
        wall of my heart, causing it to thicken and stiffen. Untreated, it
        would eventually make my heart unable to function any longer and I
        would have a median life expectancy of one year from diagnosis.
        Fortunately, I am set up for treatment, which expands my median life
        expectancy to four years. This does NOT mean I have four years to
        live. For those who've forgotten their freshman or pre-freshman
        (high school or junior high) math, a median means half the numbers
        fall above that value and half fall below. It is NOT an average.

        In any case, I intend to live considerably longer than that.
        Everybody knows or has heard of someone who was told they had five
        years to live, only that was twenty years ago and here they guy is,
        still around and kicking. I mean to beat him. I sat down and figured
        out how long it would take me to write all of the books I currently
        have in mind, without adding anything new and without trying rush
        anything. The figure I came up with was thirty years. Now, I'm fifty-
        seven, so anyone my age hoping for another thirty years is asking
        for a fair bit, but I don't care. That is my minimum goal. I am
        going to finish those books, all of them, and that is that.

        My treatment starts in about 2 weeks at the Mayo Clinic in
        Rochester, Minnesota, where they have seen and treated more cases
        like mine than anywhere else in the US. Basically, it boils down to
        this. They will harvest a good quantity of my bone marrow stem cells
        from my blood. These aren't the stem cells that have Bush and Cheney
        in a swivet; they can only grow into bone marrow, and only into my
        bone marrow at that. Then will follow two days of intense
        chemotherapy to kill off all of my bone marrow, since there is no
        way at present to target just the misbehaving 5%. Once this is done,
        they will re-implant my bmsc to begin rebuilding my bone marrow and
        immune system, which will of course go south with the bone marrow.
        Depending on how long it takes me to recuperate sufficiently, 6 to 8
        weeks after checking in, I can come home. I will have a fifty-fifty
        chance of some good result (25% chance of remission; 25% chance of
        some reduction in amyloid production), a 35-40% chance of no result,
        and a 10-15% chance of fatality. Believe me, that's a Hell of a lot
        better than staring down the barrel of a one-year median. If I get
        less than full remission, my doctor already, she says, has several
        therapies in mind, though I suspect we will heading into
        experimental territory. If that is where this takes me, however, so
        be it. I have thirty more years worth of books to write even if I
        can keep from thinking of any more, and I don't intend to let this
        thing get in my way.

        - Robert Jordan







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      • Matt Baker
        His leaking mortality hasn t speeded up his writing schedule, unfortunately. Looks like those books on Manetheren and Artur Hawkwing that i wanted will never
        Message 3 of 21 , Mar 24, 2006
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          His leaking mortality hasn't speeded up his writing schedule, unfortunately. Looks like those books on Manetheren and Artur Hawkwing that i wanted will never come to fruition unless his son takes up the banner and writes some, like Christopher Tolkien did using his father's notes, though it was mainly appendixes and half-written stories that he finished.

          It's hard seeing such a great writer get a serious medical condition like that, especially when they've added so much to fantasy. Love him or hate him, he changed the epic fantasy genre and everyone has copiously mimicked his formula, from Terry Goodkind to George R.R. Martin to Michael Stackpole to Erik Larson. A huge, well-defined tableau and setting with myriad historical and cultural underpinings. A cast of dozens of charaters. A huge, world spanning plot. Well defined magic system. A hidden, brooding evil that's never seen but is always felt and talked about, i.e., Jordan's Dark One as based on Tolkien's Mordor and Sauron, being the holy grail of that little cliche. Light and Dark. Good intentions and necessary evils. Female and male conflict. Environmental issues. Armageddon. Destiny. Pulling the Sword from the Stone type of myths and origin stories. It was all heady stuff and continues to be for most. I stopped reading after Crown of Swords because i just lost hope of a
          conclusion. Now he says there will be one, called A Memory of Light.

          Let's hope he's not just pulling our leg. I still have to read Path of Daggers, Winter's Heart, Crossroads of Twilight, and Dagger of Dreams. I'll wait until the conclusion. Anyone else have any questions or comments, beyond the agonizingly slow rate of plot development in his books? I always loved his Conan books and bought all of them when i was 14 and 15. They were good, trashy, pulpy, violent books, much in the REH vein, as much as anyone these days can mimic things like that.

          Jeff Cherpeski <jcherper@...> wrote:
          Well, if he lives the 4 years, he might cover another 2 weeks in his novels.

          Matt <gauvaine@...> wrote: Important note from Robert Jordan: March 25, 2006,

          I have been diagnosed with amyloidosis. That is a rare blood disease
          which affects only 8 people out of a million each year, and those 8
          per million are divided among 22 distinct forms of amyloidosis. They
          are distinct enough that while some have no treatment at all, for
          the others, the treatment that works on one will have no effect
          whatsoever on any of the rest. An amyloid is a misshapen or
          misfolded protein that can be produced by various parts of the body
          and which may deposit in other parts of the body (nerves or organs)
          with varying effects. (As a small oddity, amyloids are associated
          with a wide list of diseases ranging from carpal tunnel syndrome to
          Alzheimer's. There's no current evidence of cause and effect, and
          none of these is considered any form of amyloidosis, but the
          amyloids are always there. So it is entirely possible that research
          on amyloids may one day lead to cures for Alzheimer's and the Lord
          knows what else. I've offered to be a literary poster boy for the
          Mayo Amyloidosis Program, and the May PR Department, at least, seems
          very interested. Plus, I've discovered a number of fans in various
          positions at the clinic, so maybe they'll help out.)

          Now in my case, what I have is primary amyloidosis with
          cardiomyapathy. That means that some (only about 5% at present) of
          my bone marrow is producing amyloids which are depositing in the
          wall of my heart, causing it to thicken and stiffen. Untreated, it
          would eventually make my heart unable to function any longer and I
          would have a median life expectancy of one year from diagnosis.
          Fortunately, I am set up for treatment, which expands my median life
          expectancy to four years. This does NOT mean I have four years to
          live. For those who've forgotten their freshman or pre-freshman
          (high school or junior high) math, a median means half the numbers
          fall above that value and half fall below. It is NOT an average.

          In any case, I intend to live considerably longer than that.
          Everybody knows or has heard of someone who was told they had five
          years to live, only that was twenty years ago and here they guy is,
          still around and kicking. I mean to beat him. I sat down and figured
          out how long it would take me to write all of the books I currently
          have in mind, without adding anything new and without trying rush
          anything. The figure I came up with was thirty years. Now, I'm fifty-
          seven, so anyone my age hoping for another thirty years is asking
          for a fair bit, but I don't care. That is my minimum goal. I am
          going to finish those books, all of them, and that is that.

          My treatment starts in about 2 weeks at the Mayo Clinic in
          Rochester, Minnesota, where they have seen and treated more cases
          like mine than anywhere else in the US. Basically, it boils down to
          this. They will harvest a good quantity of my bone marrow stem cells
          from my blood. These aren't the stem cells that have Bush and Cheney
          in a swivet; they can only grow into bone marrow, and only into my
          bone marrow at that. Then will follow two days of intense
          chemotherapy to kill off all of my bone marrow, since there is no
          way at present to target just the misbehaving 5%. Once this is done,
          they will re-implant my bmsc to begin rebuilding my bone marrow and
          immune system, which will of course go south with the bone marrow.
          Depending on how long it takes me to recuperate sufficiently, 6 to 8
          weeks after checking in, I can come home. I will have a fifty-fifty
          chance of some good result (25% chance of remission; 25% chance of
          some reduction in amyloid production), a 35-40% chance of no result,
          and a 10-15% chance of fatality. Believe me, that's a Hell of a lot
          better than staring down the barrel of a one-year median. If I get
          less than full remission, my doctor already, she says, has several
          therapies in mind, though I suspect we will heading into
          experimental territory. If that is where this takes me, however, so
          be it. I have thirty more years worth of books to write even if I
          can keep from thinking of any more, and I don't intend to let this
          thing get in my way.

          - Robert Jordan







          ---------------------------------
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          Visit your group "fantasyfictiondungeon" on the web.

          To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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        • Saje
          The series has been a constant source of frustration, but all in all I ve enjoyed it. And I agree that it s certainly had a far-reaching effect on the fantasy
          Message 4 of 21 , Mar 24, 2006
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            The series has been a constant source of frustration, but all in all I've enjoyed it. And I agree that it's certainly had a far-reaching effect on the fantasy genre, and epic fantasy in particular. I'd grown rather bored and jaded with this sort of stuff over the course of the last several years, but I have read each offering from the series in the hopes that someday it will find a conclusion.
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: Matt Baker
            To: fantasyfictiondungeon@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Friday, March 24, 2006 11:00 AM
            Subject: Re: [Fantasy Fiction Dungeon] Note From Robert Jordan about his medical condition


            His leaking mortality hasn't speeded up his writing schedule, unfortunately. Looks like those books on Manetheren and Artur Hawkwing that i wanted will never come to fruition unless his son takes up the banner and writes some, like Christopher Tolkien did using his father's notes, though it was mainly appendixes and half-written stories that he finished.

            It's hard seeing such a great writer get a serious medical condition like that, especially when they've added so much to fantasy. Love him or hate him, he changed the epic fantasy genre and everyone has copiously mimicked his formula, from Terry Goodkind to George R.R. Martin to Michael Stackpole to Erik Larson. A huge, well-defined tableau and setting with myriad historical and cultural underpinings. A cast of dozens of charaters. A huge, world spanning plot. Well defined magic system. A hidden, brooding evil that's never seen but is always felt and talked about, i.e., Jordan's Dark One as based on Tolkien's Mordor and Sauron, being the holy grail of that little cliche. Light and Dark. Good intentions and necessary evils. Female and male conflict. Environmental issues. Armageddon. Destiny. Pulling the Sword from the Stone type of myths and origin stories. It was all heady stuff and continues to be for most. I stopped reading after Crown of Swords because i just lost hope of a
            conclusion. Now he says there will be one, called A Memory of Light.

            Let's hope he's not just pulling our leg. I still have to read Path of Daggers, Winter's Heart, Crossroads of Twilight, and Dagger of Dreams. I'll wait until the conclusion. Anyone else have any questions or comments, beyond the agonizingly slow rate of plot development in his books? I always loved his Conan books and bought all of them when i was 14 and 15. They were good, trashy, pulpy, violent books, much in the REH vein, as much as anyone these days can mimic things like that.

            Jeff Cherpeski <jcherper@...> wrote:
            Well, if he lives the 4 years, he might cover another 2 weeks in his novels.

            Matt <gauvaine@...> wrote: Important note from Robert Jordan: March 25, 2006,

            I have been diagnosed with amyloidosis. That is a rare blood disease
            which affects only 8 people out of a million each year, and those 8
            per million are divided among 22 distinct forms of amyloidosis. They
            are distinct enough that while some have no treatment at all, for
            the others, the treatment that works on one will have no effect
            whatsoever on any of the rest. An amyloid is a misshapen or
            misfolded protein that can be produced by various parts of the body
            and which may deposit in other parts of the body (nerves or organs)
            with varying effects. (As a small oddity, amyloids are associated
            with a wide list of diseases ranging from carpal tunnel syndrome to
            Alzheimer's. There's no current evidence of cause and effect, and
            none of these is considered any form of amyloidosis, but the
            amyloids are always there. So it is entirely possible that research
            on amyloids may one day lead to cures for Alzheimer's and the Lord
            knows what else. I've offered to be a literary poster boy for the
            Mayo Amyloidosis Program, and the May PR Department, at least, seems
            very interested. Plus, I've discovered a number of fans in various
            positions at the clinic, so maybe they'll help out.)

            Now in my case, what I have is primary amyloidosis with
            cardiomyapathy. That means that some (only about 5% at present) of
            my bone marrow is producing amyloids which are depositing in the
            wall of my heart, causing it to thicken and stiffen. Untreated, it
            would eventually make my heart unable to function any longer and I
            would have a median life expectancy of one year from diagnosis.
            Fortunately, I am set up for treatment, which expands my median life
            expectancy to four years. This does NOT mean I have four years to
            live. For those who've forgotten their freshman or pre-freshman
            (high school or junior high) math, a median means half the numbers
            fall above that value and half fall below. It is NOT an average.

            In any case, I intend to live considerably longer than that.
            Everybody knows or has heard of someone who was told they had five
            years to live, only that was twenty years ago and here they guy is,
            still around and kicking. I mean to beat him. I sat down and figured
            out how long it would take me to write all of the books I currently
            have in mind, without adding anything new and without trying rush
            anything. The figure I came up with was thirty years. Now, I'm fifty-
            seven, so anyone my age hoping for another thirty years is asking
            for a fair bit, but I don't care. That is my minimum goal. I am
            going to finish those books, all of them, and that is that.

            My treatment starts in about 2 weeks at the Mayo Clinic in
            Rochester, Minnesota, where they have seen and treated more cases
            like mine than anywhere else in the US. Basically, it boils down to
            this. They will harvest a good quantity of my bone marrow stem cells
            from my blood. These aren't the stem cells that have Bush and Cheney
            in a swivet; they can only grow into bone marrow, and only into my
            bone marrow at that. Then will follow two days of intense
            chemotherapy to kill off all of my bone marrow, since there is no
            way at present to target just the misbehaving 5%. Once this is done,
            they will re-implant my bmsc to begin rebuilding my bone marrow and
            immune system, which will of course go south with the bone marrow.
            Depending on how long it takes me to recuperate sufficiently, 6 to 8
            weeks after checking in, I can come home. I will have a fifty-fifty
            chance of some good result (25% chance of remission; 25% chance of
            some reduction in amyloid production), a 35-40% chance of no result,
            and a 10-15% chance of fatality. Believe me, that's a Hell of a lot
            better than staring down the barrel of a one-year median. If I get
            less than full remission, my doctor already, she says, has several
            therapies in mind, though I suspect we will heading into
            experimental territory. If that is where this takes me, however, so
            be it. I have thirty more years worth of books to write even if I
            can keep from thinking of any more, and I don't intend to let this
            thing get in my way.

            - Robert Jordan







            ---------------------------------
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          • Marc Vun Kannon
            ... All of whom are authors that I have not read much of because I loathed the little that I did. ... How is this any addition to what Tolkien did 70 years
            Message 5 of 21 , Mar 24, 2006
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              --- Matt Baker <gauvaine@...> wrote:

              > It's hard seeing such a great writer get a serious
              > medical condition like that, especially when they've
              > added so much to fantasy. Love him or hate him, he
              > changed the epic fantasy genre and everyone has
              > copiously mimicked his formula, from Terry Goodkind
              > to George R.R. Martin to Michael Stackpole to Erik
              > Larson.

              All of whom are authors that I have not read much of
              because I loathed the little that I did.

              >A huge, well-defined tableau and setting
              > with myriad historical and cultural underpinings. A
              > cast of dozens of charaters. A huge, world spanning
              > plot. Well defined magic system. A hidden, brooding
              > evil that's never seen but is always felt and talked
              > about, i.e., Jordan's Dark One as based on Tolkien's
              > Mordor and Sauron, being the holy grail of that
              > little cliche. Light and Dark. Good intentions and
              > necessary evils. Female and male conflict.
              > Environmental issues. Armageddon. Destiny. Pulling
              > the Sword from the Stone type of myths and origin
              > stories.

              How is this any addition to what Tolkien did 70 years
              ago?
              For my money, a better and more interesting follow-up
              to Tolkien
              was Moon's Deed of Paksenarrion.


              Marc Vun Kannon

              http://www.marcvunkannon.com

              Unbinding the Stone--To do the things that Gods cannot.
              A Warrior Made--Now available from Echelon Press.
              Fantasy at its most magical. Sit and read a spell!

              __________________________________________________
              Do You Yahoo!?
              Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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            • Saje
              Paksenarrion is a great read, and probably one of the best fantasy trilogies in years, though I find the Tolkein reference amusing--one of those who reviewed
              Message 6 of 21 , Mar 24, 2006
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                Paksenarrion is a great read, and probably one of the best fantasy trilogies in years, though I find the "Tolkein" reference amusing--one of those who reviewed it made that comparison too.

                What seemed obvious to me every time I read the series was the implicit Dungeons and Dragons theme running through it.
                ----- Original Message -----
                From: Marc Vun Kannon
                To: fantasyfictiondungeon@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Friday, March 24, 2006 12:32 PM
                Subject: Re: [Fantasy Fiction Dungeon] Note From Robert Jordan about his medical condition




                --- Matt Baker <gauvaine@...> wrote:

                > It's hard seeing such a great writer get a serious
                > medical condition like that, especially when they've
                > added so much to fantasy. Love him or hate him, he
                > changed the epic fantasy genre and everyone has
                > copiously mimicked his formula, from Terry Goodkind
                > to George R.R. Martin to Michael Stackpole to Erik
                > Larson.

                All of whom are authors that I have not read much of
                because I loathed the little that I did.

                >A huge, well-defined tableau and setting
                > with myriad historical and cultural underpinings. A
                > cast of dozens of charaters. A huge, world spanning
                > plot. Well defined magic system. A hidden, brooding
                > evil that's never seen but is always felt and talked
                > about, i.e., Jordan's Dark One as based on Tolkien's
                > Mordor and Sauron, being the holy grail of that
                > little cliche. Light and Dark. Good intentions and
                > necessary evils. Female and male conflict.
                > Environmental issues. Armageddon. Destiny. Pulling
                > the Sword from the Stone type of myths and origin
                > stories.

                How is this any addition to what Tolkien did 70 years
                ago?
                For my money, a better and more interesting follow-up
                to Tolkien
                was Moon's Deed of Paksenarrion.


                Marc Vun Kannon

                http://www.marcvunkannon.com

                Unbinding the Stone--To do the things that Gods cannot.
                A Warrior Made--Now available from Echelon Press.
                Fantasy at its most magical. Sit and read a spell!

                __________________________________________________
                Do You Yahoo!?
                Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                http://mail.yahoo.com


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                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Yvette
                I find it sad. To be diagnosed with such a difficult disease and face mortality... Though I did not love his books, I can appreciate his art. It is difficult
                Message 7 of 21 , Mar 25, 2006
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                  I find it sad. To be diagnosed with such a difficult disease and
                  face mortality... Though I did not love his books, I can appreciate
                  his art. It is difficult enough to write words to paper let alone
                  write such that inspires so many. Where there is an anti-jordan you
                  will also find a pro-Jordan. His ideas were unique and had he
                  written better characters with focused plot, I would have found the
                  story to be great. Nevertheless, he is a great man in his time.
                  Cheers, good luck to him and his health.



                  --- In fantasyfictiondungeon@yahoogroups.com, "Saje" <soulsaje@...>
                  wrote:
                  >
                  > Paksenarrion is a great read, and probably one of the best fantasy
                  trilogies in years, though I find the "Tolkein" reference amusing--
                  one of those who reviewed it made that comparison too.
                  >
                  > What seemed obvious to me every time I read the series was the
                  implicit Dungeons and Dragons theme running through it.
                  > ----- Original Message -----
                  > From: Marc Vun Kannon
                  > To: fantasyfictiondungeon@yahoogroups.com
                  > Sent: Friday, March 24, 2006 12:32 PM
                  > Subject: Re: [Fantasy Fiction Dungeon] Note From Robert Jordan
                  about his medical condition
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > --- Matt Baker <gauvaine@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > > It's hard seeing such a great writer get a serious
                  > > medical condition like that, especially when they've
                  > > added so much to fantasy. Love him or hate him, he
                  > > changed the epic fantasy genre and everyone has
                  > > copiously mimicked his formula, from Terry Goodkind
                  > > to George R.R. Martin to Michael Stackpole to Erik
                  > > Larson.
                  >
                  > All of whom are authors that I have not read much of
                  > because I loathed the little that I did.
                  >
                  > >A huge, well-defined tableau and setting
                  > > with myriad historical and cultural underpinings. A
                  > > cast of dozens of charaters. A huge, world spanning
                  > > plot. Well defined magic system. A hidden, brooding
                  > > evil that's never seen but is always felt and talked
                  > > about, i.e., Jordan's Dark One as based on Tolkien's
                  > > Mordor and Sauron, being the holy grail of that
                  > > little cliche. Light and Dark. Good intentions and
                  > > necessary evils. Female and male conflict.
                  > > Environmental issues. Armageddon. Destiny. Pulling
                  > > the Sword from the Stone type of myths and origin
                  > > stories.
                  >
                  > How is this any addition to what Tolkien did 70 years
                  > ago?
                  > For my money, a better and more interesting follow-up
                  > to Tolkien
                  > was Moon's Deed of Paksenarrion.
                  >
                  >
                  > Marc Vun Kannon
                  >
                  > http://www.marcvunkannon.com
                  >
                  > Unbinding the Stone--To do the things that Gods cannot.
                  > A Warrior Made--Now available from Echelon Press.
                  > Fantasy at its most magical. Sit and read a spell!
                  >
                  > __________________________________________________
                  > Do You Yahoo!?
                  > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                  > http://mail.yahoo.com
                  >
                  >
                  > -------------------------------------------------------------------
                  -----------
                  > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                  >
                  > a.. Visit your group "fantasyfictiondungeon" on the web.
                  >
                  > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                  > fantasyfictiondungeon-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  >
                  > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms
                  of Service.
                  >
                  >
                  > -------------------------------------------------------------------
                  -----------
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                • Marc Vun Kannon
                  How many times I ve said this, about so many writers! ... His ideas were unique ... Marc Vun Kannon http://www.marcvunkannon.com Unbinding the Stone--To do the
                  Message 8 of 21 , Mar 25, 2006
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                    How many times I've said this, about so many writers!

                    --- Yvette <yvette_n_chad@...> wrote:
                    His ideas were unique
                    > and had he
                    > written better characters with focused plot, I would
                    > have found the
                    > story to be great.

                    Marc Vun Kannon

                    http://www.marcvunkannon.com

                    Unbinding the Stone--To do the things that Gods cannot.
                    A Warrior Made--Now available from Echelon Press.
                    Fantasy at its most magical. Sit and read a spell!

                    __________________________________________________
                    Do You Yahoo!?
                    Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                    http://mail.yahoo.com
                  • Yvette
                    Marc I am interested in reading your book. I would like to get a copy. I will contact you at your website.
                    Message 9 of 21 , Mar 26, 2006
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                      Marc I am interested in reading your book. I would like to get a
                      copy. I will contact you at your website.

                      --- In fantasyfictiondungeon@yahoogroups.com, Marc Vun Kannon
                      <mvonkann2000@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > How many times I've said this, about so many writers!
                      >
                      > --- Yvette <yvette_n_chad@...> wrote:
                      > His ideas were unique
                      > > and had he
                      > > written better characters with focused plot, I would
                      > > have found the
                      > > story to be great.
                      >
                      > Marc Vun Kannon
                      >
                      > http://www.marcvunkannon.com
                      >
                      > Unbinding the Stone--To do the things that Gods cannot.
                      > A Warrior Made--Now available from Echelon Press.
                      > Fantasy at its most magical. Sit and read a spell!
                      >
                      > __________________________________________________
                      > Do You Yahoo!?
                      > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                      > http://mail.yahoo.com
                      >
                    • Matt
                      I didn t say it was an addition so much as mimicry in a much watered- down, mass consuming form that has been palatable for genre reading public, especially
                      Message 10 of 21 , Mar 28, 2006
                      • 0 Attachment
                        I didn't say it was an addition so much as mimicry in a much watered-
                        down, mass consuming form that has been palatable for genre reading
                        public, especially young adults, to eat up and ask for more. I can't
                        fault him for that. Mass appeal is never a bad thing for an author,
                        original and groundbreaking or not.

                        --- In fantasyfictiondungeon@yahoogroups.com, Marc Vun Kannon
                        <mvonkann2000@...> wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > --- Matt Baker <gauvaine@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > > It's hard seeing such a great writer get a serious
                        > > medical condition like that, especially when they've
                        > > added so much to fantasy. Love him or hate him, he
                        > > changed the epic fantasy genre and everyone has
                        > > copiously mimicked his formula, from Terry Goodkind
                        > > to George R.R. Martin to Michael Stackpole to Erik
                        > > Larson.
                        >
                        > All of whom are authors that I have not read much of
                        > because I loathed the little that I did.
                        >
                        > >A huge, well-defined tableau and setting
                        > > with myriad historical and cultural underpinings. A
                        > > cast of dozens of charaters. A huge, world spanning
                        > > plot. Well defined magic system. A hidden, brooding
                        > > evil that's never seen but is always felt and talked
                        > > about, i.e., Jordan's Dark One as based on Tolkien's
                        > > Mordor and Sauron, being the holy grail of that
                        > > little cliche. Light and Dark. Good intentions and
                        > > necessary evils. Female and male conflict.
                        > > Environmental issues. Armageddon. Destiny. Pulling
                        > > the Sword from the Stone type of myths and origin
                        > > stories.
                        >
                        > How is this any addition to what Tolkien did 70 years
                        > ago?
                        > For my money, a better and more interesting follow-up
                        > to Tolkien
                        > was Moon's Deed of Paksenarrion.
                        >
                        >
                        > Marc Vun Kannon
                        >
                        > http://www.marcvunkannon.com
                        >
                        > Unbinding the Stone--To do the things that Gods cannot.
                        > A Warrior Made--Now available from Echelon Press.
                        > Fantasy at its most magical. Sit and read a spell!
                        >
                        > __________________________________________________
                        > Do You Yahoo!?
                        > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                        > http://mail.yahoo.com
                        >
                      • Matt
                        I only make the Tolkien comparison as it is a cliche, especially more so now.The fact that Tolkien took alot of his themes from the Song of Roland, Beowulf,
                        Message 11 of 21 , Mar 28, 2006
                        • 0 Attachment
                          I only make the Tolkien comparison as it is a cliche, especially
                          more so now.The fact that Tolkien took alot of his themes from the
                          Song of Roland, Beowulf, Gilgamesh the King, Arthurian legends, the
                          Celtic Sidhe mythos and some other myths and origin stories belies
                          the fact that there is nothing ever new under the sun, just
                          presented differently or with a twist, redefined, humongenized,
                          distilled, and poured out like liquid imagineering.

                          -- In fantasyfictiondungeon@yahoogroups.com, "Saje" <soulsaje@...>
                          wrote:
                          >
                          > Paksenarrion is a great read, and probably one of the best fantasy
                          trilogies in years, though I find the "Tolkein" reference amusing--
                          one of those who reviewed it made that comparison too.
                          >
                          > What seemed obvious to me every time I read the series was the
                          implicit Dungeons and Dragons theme running through it.
                          > ----- Original Message -----
                          > From: Marc Vun Kannon
                          > To: fantasyfictiondungeon@yahoogroups.com
                          > Sent: Friday, March 24, 2006 12:32 PM
                          > Subject: Re: [Fantasy Fiction Dungeon] Note From Robert Jordan
                          about his medical condition
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > --- Matt Baker <gauvaine@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > > It's hard seeing such a great writer get a serious
                          > > medical condition like that, especially when they've
                          > > added so much to fantasy. Love him or hate him, he
                          > > changed the epic fantasy genre and everyone has
                          > > copiously mimicked his formula, from Terry Goodkind
                          > > to George R.R. Martin to Michael Stackpole to Erik
                          > > Larson.
                          >
                          > All of whom are authors that I have not read much of
                          > because I loathed the little that I did.
                          >
                          > >A huge, well-defined tableau and setting
                          > > with myriad historical and cultural underpinings. A
                          > > cast of dozens of charaters. A huge, world spanning
                          > > plot. Well defined magic system. A hidden, brooding
                          > > evil that's never seen but is always felt and talked
                          > > about, i.e., Jordan's Dark One as based on Tolkien's
                          > > Mordor and Sauron, being the holy grail of that
                          > > little cliche. Light and Dark. Good intentions and
                          > > necessary evils. Female and male conflict.
                          > > Environmental issues. Armageddon. Destiny. Pulling
                          > > the Sword from the Stone type of myths and origin
                          > > stories.
                          >
                          > How is this any addition to what Tolkien did 70 years
                          > ago?
                          > For my money, a better and more interesting follow-up
                          > to Tolkien
                          > was Moon's Deed of Paksenarrion.
                          >
                          >
                          > Marc Vun Kannon
                          >
                          > http://www.marcvunkannon.com
                          >
                          > Unbinding the Stone--To do the things that Gods cannot.
                          > A Warrior Made--Now available from Echelon Press.
                          > Fantasy at its most magical. Sit and read a spell!
                          >
                          > __________________________________________________
                          > Do You Yahoo!?
                          > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                          > http://mail.yahoo.com
                          >
                          >
                          > -------------------------------------------------------------------
                          -----------
                          > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                          >
                          > a.. Visit your group "fantasyfictiondungeon" on the web.
                          >
                          > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                          > fantasyfictiondungeon-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                          >
                          > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms
                          of Service.
                          >
                          >
                          > -------------------------------------------------------------------
                          -----------
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
                        • Marc Vun Kannon
                          Tolkien himself would have been the first to admit the connections. My own book was compared to ancient Chinese folktales by the first reviewer! Although if
                          Message 12 of 21 , Mar 28, 2006
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Tolkien himself would have been the first to admit the
                            connections. My own book was compared to ancient
                            Chinese folktales by the first reviewer! Although if
                            one is general enough with one's categories anything
                            will fit. It's a modern fetish to strive for the
                            utterly new and original.

                            --- Matt <gauvaine@...> wrote:

                            > I only make the Tolkien comparison as it is a
                            > cliche, especially
                            > more so now.The fact that Tolkien took alot of his
                            > themes from the
                            > Song of Roland, Beowulf, Gilgamesh the King,
                            > Arthurian legends, the
                            > Celtic Sidhe mythos and some other myths and origin
                            > stories belies
                            > the fact that there is nothing ever new under the
                            > sun, just
                            > presented differently or with a twist, redefined,
                            > humongenized,
                            > distilled, and poured out like liquid imagineering.
                            >
                            > -- In fantasyfictiondungeon@yahoogroups.com, "Saje"
                            > <soulsaje@...>
                            > wrote:
                            > >
                            > > Paksenarrion is a great read, and probably one of
                            > the best fantasy
                            > trilogies in years, though I find the "Tolkein"
                            > reference amusing--
                            > one of those who reviewed it made that comparison
                            > too.
                            > >
                            > > What seemed obvious to me every time I read the
                            > series was the
                            > implicit Dungeons and Dragons theme running through
                            > it.
                            > > ----- Original Message -----
                            > > From: Marc Vun Kannon
                            > > To: fantasyfictiondungeon@yahoogroups.com
                            > > Sent: Friday, March 24, 2006 12:32 PM
                            > > Subject: Re: [Fantasy Fiction Dungeon] Note From
                            > Robert Jordan
                            > about his medical condition
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > --- Matt Baker <gauvaine@...> wrote:
                            > >
                            > > > It's hard seeing such a great writer get a
                            > serious
                            > > > medical condition like that, especially when
                            > they've
                            > > > added so much to fantasy. Love him or hate
                            > him, he
                            > > > changed the epic fantasy genre and everyone
                            > has
                            > > > copiously mimicked his formula, from Terry
                            > Goodkind
                            > > > to George R.R. Martin to Michael Stackpole to
                            > Erik
                            > > > Larson.
                            > >
                            > > All of whom are authors that I have not read
                            > much of
                            > > because I loathed the little that I did.
                            > >
                            > > >A huge, well-defined tableau and setting
                            > > > with myriad historical and cultural
                            > underpinings. A
                            > > > cast of dozens of charaters. A huge, world
                            > spanning
                            > > > plot. Well defined magic system. A hidden,
                            > brooding
                            > > > evil that's never seen but is always felt and
                            > talked
                            > > > about, i.e., Jordan's Dark One as based on
                            > Tolkien's
                            > > > Mordor and Sauron, being the holy grail of
                            > that
                            > > > little cliche. Light and Dark. Good intentions
                            > and
                            > > > necessary evils. Female and male conflict.
                            > > > Environmental issues. Armageddon. Destiny.
                            > Pulling
                            > > > the Sword from the Stone type of myths and
                            > origin
                            > > > stories.
                            > >
                            > > How is this any addition to what Tolkien did 70
                            > years
                            > > ago?
                            > > For my money, a better and more interesting
                            > follow-up
                            > > to Tolkien
                            > > was Moon's Deed of Paksenarrion.
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > Marc Vun Kannon
                            > >
                            > > http://www.marcvunkannon.com
                            > >
                            > > Unbinding the Stone--To do the things that Gods
                            > cannot.
                            > > A Warrior Made--Now available from Echelon
                            > Press.
                            > > Fantasy at its most magical. Sit and read a
                            > spell!
                            > >
                            > >
                            > __________________________________________________
                            > > Do You Yahoo!?
                            > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
                            > protection around
                            > > http://mail.yahoo.com
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            >
                            -------------------------------------------------------------------
                            > -----------
                            > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                            > >
                            > > a.. Visit your group "fantasyfictiondungeon"
                            > on the web.
                            > >
                            > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an
                            > email to:
                            > >
                            > fantasyfictiondungeon-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                            > >
                            > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                            > the Yahoo! Terms
                            > of Service.
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            >
                            -------------------------------------------------------------------
                            > -----------
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                            > removed]
                            > >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >


                            Marc Vun Kannon

                            http://www.marcvunkannon.com

                            Unbinding the Stone--To do the things that Gods cannot.
                            A Warrior Made--Now available from Echelon Press.
                            Fantasy at its most magical. Sit and read a spell!

                            __________________________________________________
                            Do You Yahoo!?
                            Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                            http://mail.yahoo.com
                          • Saje
                            I don t know about it being a modern fetish, but I do have to say I M tired of reading the same old crap rehashed. I don t write it, and I sure don t want
                            Message 13 of 21 , Mar 28, 2006
                            • 0 Attachment
                              I don't know about it being a "modern fetish," but I do have to say I'M tired of reading the same old crap rehashed. I don't write it, and I sure don't want to read it. It's one of the reasons I've avoided reading epic fantasy for quite some time now. I'd rather read just about anything else.
                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: Marc Vun Kannon
                              To: fantasyfictiondungeon@yahoogroups.com
                              Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2006 1:51 PM
                              Subject: Re: [Fantasy Fiction Dungeon] Note From Robert Jordan about his medical condition


                              Tolkien himself would have been the first to admit the
                              connections. My own book was compared to ancient
                              Chinese folktales by the first reviewer! Although if
                              one is general enough with one's categories anything
                              will fit. It's a modern fetish to strive for the
                              utterly new and original.

                              --- Matt <gauvaine@...> wrote:

                              > I only make the Tolkien comparison as it is a
                              > cliche, especially
                              > more so now.The fact that Tolkien took alot of his
                              > themes from the
                              > Song of Roland, Beowulf, Gilgamesh the King,
                              > Arthurian legends, the
                              > Celtic Sidhe mythos and some other myths and origin
                              > stories belies
                              > the fact that there is nothing ever new under the
                              > sun, just
                              > presented differently or with a twist, redefined,
                              > humongenized,
                              > distilled, and poured out like liquid imagineering.
                              >
                              > -- In fantasyfictiondungeon@yahoogroups.com, "Saje"
                              > <soulsaje@...>
                              > wrote:
                              > >
                              > > Paksenarrion is a great read, and probably one of
                              > the best fantasy
                              > trilogies in years, though I find the "Tolkein"
                              > reference amusing--
                              > one of those who reviewed it made that comparison
                              > too.
                              > >
                              > > What seemed obvious to me every time I read the
                              > series was the
                              > implicit Dungeons and Dragons theme running through
                              > it.
                              > > ----- Original Message -----
                              > > From: Marc Vun Kannon
                              > > To: fantasyfictiondungeon@yahoogroups.com
                              > > Sent: Friday, March 24, 2006 12:32 PM
                              > > Subject: Re: [Fantasy Fiction Dungeon] Note From
                              > Robert Jordan
                              > about his medical condition
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > --- Matt Baker <gauvaine@...> wrote:
                              > >
                              > > > It's hard seeing such a great writer get a
                              > serious
                              > > > medical condition like that, especially when
                              > they've
                              > > > added so much to fantasy. Love him or hate
                              > him, he
                              > > > changed the epic fantasy genre and everyone
                              > has
                              > > > copiously mimicked his formula, from Terry
                              > Goodkind
                              > > > to George R.R. Martin to Michael Stackpole to
                              > Erik
                              > > > Larson.
                              > >
                              > > All of whom are authors that I have not read
                              > much of
                              > > because I loathed the little that I did.
                              > >
                              > > >A huge, well-defined tableau and setting
                              > > > with myriad historical and cultural
                              > underpinings. A
                              > > > cast of dozens of charaters. A huge, world
                              > spanning
                              > > > plot. Well defined magic system. A hidden,
                              > brooding
                              > > > evil that's never seen but is always felt and
                              > talked
                              > > > about, i.e., Jordan's Dark One as based on
                              > Tolkien's
                              > > > Mordor and Sauron, being the holy grail of
                              > that
                              > > > little cliche. Light and Dark. Good intentions
                              > and
                              > > > necessary evils. Female and male conflict.
                              > > > Environmental issues. Armageddon. Destiny.
                              > Pulling
                              > > > the Sword from the Stone type of myths and
                              > origin
                              > > > stories.
                              > >
                              > > How is this any addition to what Tolkien did 70
                              > years
                              > > ago?
                              > > For my money, a better and more interesting
                              > follow-up
                              > > to Tolkien
                              > > was Moon's Deed of Paksenarrion.
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > Marc Vun Kannon
                              > >
                              > > http://www.marcvunkannon.com
                              > >
                              > > Unbinding the Stone--To do the things that Gods
                              > cannot.
                              > > A Warrior Made--Now available from Echelon
                              > Press.
                              > > Fantasy at its most magical. Sit and read a
                              > spell!
                              > >
                              > >
                              > __________________________________________________
                              > > Do You Yahoo!?
                              > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
                              > protection around
                              > > http://mail.yahoo.com
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              >
                              -------------------------------------------------------------------
                              > -----------
                              > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                              > >
                              > > a.. Visit your group "fantasyfictiondungeon"
                              > on the web.
                              > >
                              > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an
                              > email to:
                              > >
                              > fantasyfictiondungeon-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                              > >
                              > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                              > the Yahoo! Terms
                              > of Service.
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              >
                              -------------------------------------------------------------------
                              > -----------
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                              > removed]
                              > >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >


                              Marc Vun Kannon

                              http://www.marcvunkannon.com

                              Unbinding the Stone--To do the things that Gods cannot.
                              A Warrior Made--Now available from Echelon Press.
                              Fantasy at its most magical. Sit and read a spell!

                              __________________________________________________
                              Do You Yahoo!?
                              Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                              http://mail.yahoo.com


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                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Marc Vun Kannon
                              It just seems to me that there is a great desire on the part of some writers to discard classic themes and stories in favor of gizmos and gadgets. There is a
                              Message 14 of 21 , Mar 31, 2006
                              • 0 Attachment
                                It just seems to me that there is a great desire on
                                the part of some writers to discard classic themes and
                                stories in favor of gizmos and gadgets. There is a
                                vast space between rehashed cliched crap and material
                                so cutting-edge the reader can't relate to it. I like
                                to think my own work, for example, is located
                                somewhere in that space, or Bujold, Meluch, Duncan,
                                Gould, Huff, Hoffman, and many others.
                                Ultra-modernity is just as much a disguise as
                                untra-conventionality. One hides poor writing under a
                                cliche, the other relies on novelty and the
                                accompanying lack of standards to hide the fact that
                                it isn't up to any standard.

                                --- Saje <soulsaje@...> wrote:

                                > I don't know about it being a "modern fetish," but I
                                > do have to say I'M tired of reading the same old
                                > crap rehashed. I don't write it, and I sure don't
                                > want to read it. It's one of the reasons I've
                                > avoided reading epic fantasy for quite some time
                                > now. I'd rather read just about anything else.

                                Marc Vun Kannon

                                http://www.marcvunkannon.com

                                Unbinding the Stone--To do the things that Gods cannot.
                                A Warrior Made--Now available from Echelon Press.
                                Fantasy at its most magical. Sit and read a spell!

                                __________________________________________________
                                Do You Yahoo!?
                                Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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                              • Saje
                                Science fiction started out as gizmos and gadgets written by folks who didn t really know any science. Then actual scientists and engineers weighed in and
                                Message 15 of 21 , Mar 31, 2006
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                                  Science fiction started out as "gizmos and gadgets" written by folks who didn't really know any science. Then actual scientists and engineers weighed in and it changed the themes a bit. As was quoted in a forward to Spider Robinson's Callahan's omnibus (which I'm listening to in audio book right now) it finally came to be about people.

                                  I know what you mean about novelty... I'm don't TRY to write something unique--it just so happens that my imagination works that way. So far I have yet to get a less than glowing review...the only complaint I've gotten from a reader is that she didn't like the liberties I took with mythological figures.

                                  Not that I give a DAMN about that. I kinda figured I'd get some of those reactions from the pagan community.

                                  I like taking familiar themes and doing something different with them. I don't like abstract literature, personally, or stuff I can't relate to. If the guy's screwing a bug-faced person, I don't want to know about it. I take that as weirdness for weirdness's sake.

                                  I've had my stuff compared to Zelazny's once or twice, but, other than that, there aren't a lot of comparisons to make. I've never read anything that I can point to and say "that's what it's like."

                                  But what I believe it is...is entertaining.
                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                  From: Marc Vun Kannon
                                  To: fantasyfictiondungeon@yahoogroups.com
                                  Sent: Friday, March 31, 2006 12:20 PM
                                  Subject: Re: [Fantasy Fiction Dungeon] Note From Robert Jordan about his medical condition


                                  It just seems to me that there is a great desire on
                                  the part of some writers to discard classic themes and
                                  stories in favor of gizmos and gadgets. There is a
                                  vast space between rehashed cliched crap and material
                                  so cutting-edge the reader can't relate to it. I like
                                  to think my own work, for example, is located
                                  somewhere in that space, or Bujold, Meluch, Duncan,
                                  Gould, Huff, Hoffman, and many others.
                                  Ultra-modernity is just as much a disguise as
                                  untra-conventionality. One hides poor writing under a
                                  cliche, the other relies on novelty and the
                                  accompanying lack of standards to hide the fact that
                                  it isn't up to any standard.

                                  --- Saje <soulsaje@...> wrote:

                                  > I don't know about it being a "modern fetish," but I
                                  > do have to say I'M tired of reading the same old
                                  > crap rehashed. I don't write it, and I sure don't
                                  > want to read it. It's one of the reasons I've
                                  > avoided reading epic fantasy for quite some time
                                  > now. I'd rather read just about anything else.

                                  Marc Vun Kannon

                                  http://www.marcvunkannon.com

                                  Unbinding the Stone--To do the things that Gods cannot.
                                  A Warrior Made--Now available from Echelon Press.
                                  Fantasy at its most magical. Sit and read a spell!

                                  __________________________________________________
                                  Do You Yahoo!?
                                  Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                                  http://mail.yahoo.com


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                                • Marc Vun Kannon
                                  Originally the genres started out as stories that put more of a focus on the genre elements that seperated it from regular literature. What annoys me about so
                                  Message 16 of 21 , Mar 31, 2006
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                                    Originally the genres started out as stories that put
                                    more of a focus on the genre elements that seperated
                                    it from regular literature. What annoys me about so
                                    much of it is that the story element has gotten lost
                                    in favor of the genre element, not that it needs to
                                    be, but because the writer had some brilliant idea for
                                    some 'new' or 'original' race, magic system,
                                    technological item, quest, throne, etc., and wrote the
                                    story to show off his own brilliance. The characters
                                    are there to move the story along from one performance
                                    to the next. The perfect example of this is Simon R.
                                    Green, whose books are little more than character(s)
                                    walking around from one new object to the next until
                                    the story comes to some relatively uninspired
                                    denouement in which most of these museum exhibits play
                                    no part.
                                    I haven't noticed that having actual scientists and
                                    engineers weigh in has helped anything, except to slow
                                    down an already dull story with a pointless passion
                                    for accuracy. I agree that Spider's books are all
                                    about people, but that's because Spider can actually
                                    write stories. Except, of course, that he continually
                                    tries to be a second-rate Heinlein (who was himself
                                    second-rate) rather than a first-rate Spider.
                                    Uniqueness is not a virtue in stories, since it only
                                    means that no one will understand it. Nor should it
                                    ever have to be striven for. If the story is the
                                    written to satisfy the author, not written for a
                                    demographic, then it will be as unique and original as
                                    the author. My primary concern is to do something that
                                    I've never seen before, but will do what needs to be
                                    done to make my story work. Beyond that it becomes
                                    yet another factor in my story, the consequences of
                                    which I have to discover. Many times I've seen books
                                    that come out after I've finished mine that have much
                                    the same events happen in them, and I worry that
                                    people are going to think I copied them!
                                    But merely making something that's "like a vampire,
                                    except..." is not what I would call original.
                                    Saberhagen's Dracula in The Dracula Tape is far more
                                    original than any of these daylight dwelling, emotion
                                    eating, psychic parasites some people come up with,
                                    especially in the paranormal romance realm where every
                                    other book features a vampire. In my latest novel I
                                    invent vampires completely by accident. I didn't even
                                    realize the character had all the characteristics of a
                                    vampire until after I'd written the story. It's a
                                    fairly standard vampire, but that's okay, since the
                                    story wasn't about him being a vampire. And when I
                                    write my story explaining the origin of dragons, it
                                    won't be because I want to talk about dragons.

                                    --- Saje <soulsaje@...> wrote:

                                    > Science fiction started out as "gizmos and gadgets"
                                    > written by folks who didn't really know any science.
                                    > Then actual scientists and engineers weighed in and
                                    > it changed the themes a bit. As was quoted in a
                                    > forward to Spider Robinson's Callahan's omnibus
                                    > (which I'm listening to in audio book right now) it
                                    > finally came to be about people.
                                    >
                                    > I know what you mean about novelty... I'm don't TRY
                                    > to write something unique--it just so happens that
                                    > my imagination works that way. So far I have yet to
                                    > get a less than glowing review...the only complaint
                                    > I've gotten from a reader is that she didn't like
                                    > the liberties I took with mythological figures.
                                    >
                                    > Not that I give a DAMN about that. I kinda figured
                                    > I'd get some of those reactions from the pagan
                                    > community.
                                    >
                                    > I like taking familiar themes and doing something
                                    > different with them. I don't like abstract
                                    > literature, personally, or stuff I can't relate to.
                                    > If the guy's screwing a bug-faced person, I don't
                                    > want to know about it. I take that as weirdness for
                                    > weirdness's sake.
                                    >
                                    > I've had my stuff compared to Zelazny's once or
                                    > twice, but, other than that, there aren't a lot of
                                    > comparisons to make. I've never read anything that
                                    > I can point to and say "that's what it's like."
                                    >
                                    > But what I believe it is...is entertaining.
                                    > ----- Original Message -----
                                    > From: Marc Vun Kannon
                                    > To: fantasyfictiondungeon@yahoogroups.com
                                    > Sent: Friday, March 31, 2006 12:20 PM
                                    > Subject: Re: [Fantasy Fiction Dungeon] Note From
                                    > Robert Jordan about his medical condition
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > It just seems to me that there is a great desire
                                    > on
                                    > the part of some writers to discard classic themes
                                    > and
                                    > stories in favor of gizmos and gadgets. There is
                                    > a
                                    > vast space between rehashed cliched crap and
                                    > material
                                    > so cutting-edge the reader can't relate to it. I
                                    > like
                                    > to think my own work, for example, is located
                                    > somewhere in that space, or Bujold, Meluch,
                                    > Duncan,
                                    > Gould, Huff, Hoffman, and many others.
                                    > Ultra-modernity is just as much a disguise as
                                    > untra-conventionality. One hides poor writing
                                    > under a
                                    > cliche, the other relies on novelty and the
                                    > accompanying lack of standards to hide the fact
                                    > that
                                    > it isn't up to any standard.
                                    >
                                    > --- Saje <soulsaje@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > > I don't know about it being a "modern fetish,"
                                    > but I
                                    > > do have to say I'M tired of reading the same old
                                    > > crap rehashed. I don't write it, and I sure
                                    > don't
                                    > > want to read it. It's one of the reasons I've
                                    > > avoided reading epic fantasy for quite some time
                                    > > now. I'd rather read just about anything else.
                                    >
                                    > Marc Vun Kannon
                                    >
                                    > http://www.marcvunkannon.com
                                    >
                                    > Unbinding the Stone--To do the things that Gods
                                    > cannot.
                                    > A Warrior Made--Now available from Echelon Press.
                                    >
                                    > Fantasy at its most magical. Sit and read a
                                    > spell!
                                    >
                                    > __________________________________________________
                                    > Do You Yahoo!?
                                    > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
                                    > protection around
                                    > http://mail.yahoo.com
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > SPONSORED LINKS Fantasy science fiction magazine
                                    > Fantasy science fiction Science fiction movies
                                    > Writing science fiction Science fiction
                                    > True believer
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                    > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                                    >
                                    > a.. Visit your group "fantasyfictiondungeon" on
                                    > the web.
                                    >
                                    > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an
                                    > email to:
                                    >
                                    > fantasyfictiondungeon-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                    >
                                    > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the
                                    > Yahoo! Terms of Service.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                                    > removed]
                                    >
                                    >


                                    Marc Vun Kannon

                                    http://www.marcvunkannon.com

                                    Unbinding the Stone--To do the things that Gods cannot.
                                    A Warrior Made--Now available from Echelon Press.
                                    Fantasy at its most magical. Sit and read a spell!

                                    __________________________________________________
                                    Do You Yahoo!?
                                    Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                                    http://mail.yahoo.com
                                  • Matt
                                    Like i ve said, there s no making up for strong dialogue, coherent theme, and good characterization. Everything else is just gift wrapping and spackle.
                                    Message 17 of 21 , Apr 3, 2006
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                                      Like i've said, there's no making up for strong dialogue, coherent
                                      theme, and good characterization. Everything else is just gift
                                      wrapping and spackle.

                                      --- In fantasyfictiondungeon@yahoogroups.com, Marc Vun Kannon
                                      <mvonkann2000@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > It just seems to me that there is a great desire on
                                      > the part of some writers to discard classic themes and
                                      > stories in favor of gizmos and gadgets. There is a
                                      > vast space between rehashed cliched crap and material
                                      > so cutting-edge the reader can't relate to it. I like
                                      > to think my own work, for example, is located
                                      > somewhere in that space, or Bujold, Meluch, Duncan,
                                      > Gould, Huff, Hoffman, and many others.
                                      > Ultra-modernity is just as much a disguise as
                                      > untra-conventionality. One hides poor writing under a
                                      > cliche, the other relies on novelty and the
                                      > accompanying lack of standards to hide the fact that
                                      > it isn't up to any standard.
                                      >
                                      > --- Saje <soulsaje@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > > I don't know about it being a "modern fetish," but I
                                      > > do have to say I'M tired of reading the same old
                                      > > crap rehashed. I don't write it, and I sure don't
                                      > > want to read it. It's one of the reasons I've
                                      > > avoided reading epic fantasy for quite some time
                                      > > now. I'd rather read just about anything else.
                                      >
                                      > Marc Vun Kannon
                                      >
                                      > http://www.marcvunkannon.com
                                      >
                                      > Unbinding the Stone--To do the things that Gods cannot.
                                      > A Warrior Made--Now available from Echelon Press.
                                      > Fantasy at its most magical. Sit and read a spell!
                                      >
                                      > __________________________________________________
                                      > Do You Yahoo!?
                                      > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                                      > http://mail.yahoo.com
                                      >
                                    • Matt
                                      Dragons, now that is something i always have had a fascination with and have wanted to write a novel on. I m afraid, too, however, because of all the genre
                                      Message 18 of 21 , Apr 3, 2006
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        Dragons, now that is something i always have had a fascination with
                                        and have wanted to write a novel on. I'm afraid, too, however,
                                        because of all the genre books that have dragons as the main
                                        element. I'm afraid Christopher Paolini has polluted the well with
                                        the dreck he has foisted upon the market. Mercedes Lackey, Andre
                                        Norton, Terry Hickman and Margaret Weis, Christopher Rowley, Barbara
                                        Hambly have all had the Dragon theme, and there are a score of
                                        others. All with different takes and different protagonists and the
                                        requisite traits and plot elements, of course. I would just hate for
                                        an editor to go "oh, great, another dragon story. slush pile."

                                        I still think it's a viable theme and one with lots of places
                                        unexplored that would be fun to write. Fun. That's what i like about
                                        it. It would be fun. And hopefully fun to read.



                                        \--- In fantasyfictiondungeon@yahoogroups.com, Marc Vun Kannon
                                        <mvonkann2000@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > Originally the genres started out as stories that put
                                        > more of a focus on the genre elements that seperated
                                        > it from regular literature. What annoys me about so
                                        > much of it is that the story element has gotten lost
                                        > in favor of the genre element, not that it needs to
                                        > be, but because the writer had some brilliant idea for
                                        > some 'new' or 'original' race, magic system,
                                        > technological item, quest, throne, etc., and wrote the
                                        > story to show off his own brilliance. The characters
                                        > are there to move the story along from one performance
                                        > to the next. The perfect example of this is Simon R.
                                        > Green, whose books are little more than character(s)
                                        > walking around from one new object to the next until
                                        > the story comes to some relatively uninspired
                                        > denouement in which most of these museum exhibits play
                                        > no part.
                                        > I haven't noticed that having actual scientists and
                                        > engineers weigh in has helped anything, except to slow
                                        > down an already dull story with a pointless passion
                                        > for accuracy. I agree that Spider's books are all
                                        > about people, but that's because Spider can actually
                                        > write stories. Except, of course, that he continually
                                        > tries to be a second-rate Heinlein (who was himself
                                        > second-rate) rather than a first-rate Spider.
                                        > Uniqueness is not a virtue in stories, since it only
                                        > means that no one will understand it. Nor should it
                                        > ever have to be striven for. If the story is the
                                        > written to satisfy the author, not written for a
                                        > demographic, then it will be as unique and original as
                                        > the author. My primary concern is to do something that
                                        > I've never seen before, but will do what needs to be
                                        > done to make my story work. Beyond that it becomes
                                        > yet another factor in my story, the consequences of
                                        > which I have to discover. Many times I've seen books
                                        > that come out after I've finished mine that have much
                                        > the same events happen in them, and I worry that
                                        > people are going to think I copied them!
                                        > But merely making something that's "like a vampire,
                                        > except..." is not what I would call original.
                                        > Saberhagen's Dracula in The Dracula Tape is far more
                                        > original than any of these daylight dwelling, emotion
                                        > eating, psychic parasites some people come up with,
                                        > especially in the paranormal romance realm where every
                                        > other book features a vampire. In my latest novel I
                                        > invent vampires completely by accident. I didn't even
                                        > realize the character had all the characteristics of a
                                        > vampire until after I'd written the story. It's a
                                        > fairly standard vampire, but that's okay, since the
                                        > story wasn't about him being a vampire. And when I
                                        > write my story explaining the origin of dragons, it
                                        > won't be because I want to talk about dragons.
                                        >
                                        > --- Saje <soulsaje@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > > Science fiction started out as "gizmos and gadgets"
                                        > > written by folks who didn't really know any science.
                                        > > Then actual scientists and engineers weighed in and
                                        > > it changed the themes a bit. As was quoted in a
                                        > > forward to Spider Robinson's Callahan's omnibus
                                        > > (which I'm listening to in audio book right now) it
                                        > > finally came to be about people.
                                        > >
                                        > > I know what you mean about novelty... I'm don't TRY
                                        > > to write something unique--it just so happens that
                                        > > my imagination works that way. So far I have yet to
                                        > > get a less than glowing review...the only complaint
                                        > > I've gotten from a reader is that she didn't like
                                        > > the liberties I took with mythological figures.
                                        > >
                                        > > Not that I give a DAMN about that. I kinda figured
                                        > > I'd get some of those reactions from the pagan
                                        > > community.
                                        > >
                                        > > I like taking familiar themes and doing something
                                        > > different with them. I don't like abstract
                                        > > literature, personally, or stuff I can't relate to.
                                        > > If the guy's screwing a bug-faced person, I don't
                                        > > want to know about it. I take that as weirdness for
                                        > > weirdness's sake.
                                        > >
                                        > > I've had my stuff compared to Zelazny's once or
                                        > > twice, but, other than that, there aren't a lot of
                                        > > comparisons to make. I've never read anything that
                                        > > I can point to and say "that's what it's like."
                                        > >
                                        > > But what I believe it is...is entertaining.
                                        > > ----- Original Message -----
                                        > > From: Marc Vun Kannon
                                        > > To: fantasyfictiondungeon@yahoogroups.com
                                        > > Sent: Friday, March 31, 2006 12:20 PM
                                        > > Subject: Re: [Fantasy Fiction Dungeon] Note From
                                        > > Robert Jordan about his medical condition
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > It just seems to me that there is a great desire
                                        > > on
                                        > > the part of some writers to discard classic themes
                                        > > and
                                        > > stories in favor of gizmos and gadgets. There is
                                        > > a
                                        > > vast space between rehashed cliched crap and
                                        > > material
                                        > > so cutting-edge the reader can't relate to it. I
                                        > > like
                                        > > to think my own work, for example, is located
                                        > > somewhere in that space, or Bujold, Meluch,
                                        > > Duncan,
                                        > > Gould, Huff, Hoffman, and many others.
                                        > > Ultra-modernity is just as much a disguise as
                                        > > untra-conventionality. One hides poor writing
                                        > > under a
                                        > > cliche, the other relies on novelty and the
                                        > > accompanying lack of standards to hide the fact
                                        > > that
                                        > > it isn't up to any standard.
                                        > >
                                        > > --- Saje <soulsaje@...> wrote:
                                        > >
                                        > > > I don't know about it being a "modern fetish,"
                                        > > but I
                                        > > > do have to say I'M tired of reading the same old
                                        > > > crap rehashed. I don't write it, and I sure
                                        > > don't
                                        > > > want to read it. It's one of the reasons I've
                                        > > > avoided reading epic fantasy for quite some time
                                        > > > now. I'd rather read just about anything else.
                                        > >
                                        > > Marc Vun Kannon
                                        > >
                                        > > http://www.marcvunkannon.com
                                        > >
                                        > > Unbinding the Stone--To do the things that Gods
                                        > > cannot.
                                        > > A Warrior Made--Now available from Echelon Press.
                                        > >
                                        > > Fantasy at its most magical. Sit and read a
                                        > > spell!
                                        > >
                                        > > __________________________________________________
                                        > > Do You Yahoo!?
                                        > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
                                        > > protection around
                                        > > http://mail.yahoo.com
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > SPONSORED LINKS Fantasy science fiction magazine
                                        > > Fantasy science fiction Science fiction movies
                                        > > Writing science fiction Science fiction
                                        > > True believer
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > -------------------------------------------------------------------
                                        -----------
                                        > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                                        > >
                                        > > a.. Visit your group "fantasyfictiondungeon" on
                                        > > the web.
                                        > >
                                        > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an
                                        > > email to:
                                        > >
                                        > > fantasyfictiondungeon-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                        > >
                                        > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the
                                        > > Yahoo! Terms of Service.
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > -------------------------------------------------------------------
                                        -----------
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                                        > > removed]
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Marc Vun Kannon
                                        >
                                        > http://www.marcvunkannon.com
                                        >
                                        > Unbinding the Stone--To do the things that Gods cannot.
                                        > A Warrior Made--Now available from Echelon Press.
                                        > Fantasy at its most magical. Sit and read a spell!
                                        >
                                        > __________________________________________________
                                        > Do You Yahoo!?
                                        > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                                        > http://mail.yahoo.com
                                        >
                                      • Marc Vun Kannon
                                        Oh, yes, and fun to write. I ve had this story in the back of my head for a very long time, now, although I could never make it work on its own. When my
                                        Message 19 of 21 , Apr 3, 2006
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          Oh, yes, and fun to write. I've had this story in the
                                          back of my head for a very long time, now, although I
                                          could never make it work on its own. When my
                                          publisher asked us for comic fantasies for the Wyrd
                                          Wravings anthology, I ended up writing an English
                                          farce about an author trying to write a story, which
                                          was essentially me and my problems with the dragon
                                          story. (I guess I was thinking of John Lennon and how
                                          he ended up writing Nowhere man.) Anyway, I have
                                          referred to the story in my current novel, A Warrior
                                          made, and will actually tell it in the next book in
                                          that series, Tales of Uncle. It's not a tale about
                                          dragons so much as a tale of how the hero, tarkas,
                                          accidenatlly puts his foot in it and creates them.
                                          Sort of. One thing I've never seen is an origin story
                                          for dragons.

                                          --- Matt <gauvaine@...> wrote:

                                          > Dragons, now that is something i always have had a
                                          > fascination with
                                          > and have wanted to write a novel on. I'm afraid,
                                          > too, however,
                                          > because of all the genre books that have dragons as
                                          > the main
                                          > element. I'm afraid Christopher Paolini has polluted
                                          > the well with
                                          > the dreck he has foisted upon the market. Mercedes
                                          > Lackey, Andre
                                          > Norton, Terry Hickman and Margaret Weis, Christopher
                                          > Rowley, Barbara
                                          > Hambly have all had the Dragon theme, and there are
                                          > a score of
                                          > others. All with different takes and different
                                          > protagonists and the
                                          > requisite traits and plot elements, of course. I
                                          > would just hate for
                                          > an editor to go "oh, great, another dragon story.
                                          > slush pile."
                                          >
                                          > I still think it's a viable theme and one with lots
                                          > of places
                                          > unexplored that would be fun to write. Fun. That's
                                          > what i like about
                                          > it. It would be fun. And hopefully fun to read.
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > \--- In fantasyfictiondungeon@yahoogroups.com, Marc
                                          > Vun Kannon
                                          > <mvonkann2000@...> wrote:
                                          > >
                                          > > Originally the genres started out as stories that
                                          > put
                                          > > more of a focus on the genre elements that
                                          > seperated
                                          > > it from regular literature. What annoys me about
                                          > so
                                          > > much of it is that the story element has gotten
                                          > lost
                                          > > in favor of the genre element, not that it needs
                                          > to
                                          > > be, but because the writer had some brilliant idea
                                          > for
                                          > > some 'new' or 'original' race, magic system,
                                          > > technological item, quest, throne, etc., and wrote
                                          > the
                                          > > story to show off his own brilliance. The
                                          > characters
                                          > > are there to move the story along from one
                                          > performance
                                          > > to the next. The perfect example of this is Simon
                                          > R.
                                          > > Green, whose books are little more than
                                          > character(s)
                                          > > walking around from one new object to the next
                                          > until
                                          > > the story comes to some relatively uninspired
                                          > > denouement in which most of these museum exhibits
                                          > play
                                          > > no part.
                                          > > I haven't noticed that having actual scientists
                                          > and
                                          > > engineers weigh in has helped anything, except to
                                          > slow
                                          > > down an already dull story with a pointless
                                          > passion
                                          > > for accuracy. I agree that Spider's books are all
                                          > > about people, but that's because Spider can
                                          > actually
                                          > > write stories. Except, of course, that he
                                          > continually
                                          > > tries to be a second-rate Heinlein (who was
                                          > himself
                                          > > second-rate) rather than a first-rate Spider.
                                          > > Uniqueness is not a virtue in stories, since it
                                          > only
                                          > > means that no one will understand it. Nor should
                                          > it
                                          > > ever have to be striven for. If the story is the
                                          > > written to satisfy the author, not written for a
                                          > > demographic, then it will be as unique and
                                          > original as
                                          > > the author. My primary concern is to do something
                                          > that
                                          > > I've never seen before, but will do what needs to
                                          > be
                                          > > done to make my story work. Beyond that it
                                          > becomes
                                          > > yet another factor in my story, the consequences
                                          > of
                                          > > which I have to discover. Many times I've seen
                                          > books
                                          > > that come out after I've finished mine that have
                                          > much
                                          > > the same events happen in them, and I worry that
                                          > > people are going to think I copied them!
                                          > > But merely making something that's "like a
                                          > vampire,
                                          > > except..." is not what I would call original.
                                          > > Saberhagen's Dracula in The Dracula Tape is far
                                          > more
                                          > > original than any of these daylight dwelling,
                                          > emotion
                                          > > eating, psychic parasites some people come up
                                          > with,
                                          > > especially in the paranormal romance realm where
                                          > every
                                          > > other book features a vampire. In my latest novel
                                          > I
                                          > > invent vampires completely by accident. I didn't
                                          > even
                                          > > realize the character had all the characteristics
                                          > of a
                                          > > vampire until after I'd written the story. It's a
                                          > > fairly standard vampire, but that's okay, since
                                          > the
                                          > > story wasn't about him being a vampire. And when
                                          > I
                                          > > write my story explaining the origin of dragons,
                                          > it
                                          > > won't be because I want to talk about dragons.
                                          > >
                                          > > --- Saje <soulsaje@...> wrote:
                                          > >
                                          > > > Science fiction started out as "gizmos and
                                          > gadgets"
                                          > > > written by folks who didn't really know any
                                          > science.
                                          > > > Then actual scientists and engineers weighed in
                                          > and
                                          > > > it changed the themes a bit. As was quoted in a
                                          > > > forward to Spider Robinson's Callahan's omnibus
                                          > > > (which I'm listening to in audio book right now)
                                          > it
                                          > > > finally came to be about people.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > I know what you mean about novelty... I'm don't
                                          > TRY
                                          > > > to write something unique--it just so happens
                                          > that
                                          > > > my imagination works that way. So far I have
                                          > yet to
                                          > > > get a less than glowing review...the only
                                          > complaint
                                          > > > I've gotten from a reader is that she didn't
                                          > like
                                          > > > the liberties I took with mythological figures.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Not that I give a DAMN about that. I kinda
                                          > figured
                                          > > > I'd get some of those reactions from the pagan
                                          > > > community.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > I like taking familiar themes and doing
                                          > something
                                          > > > different with them. I don't like abstract
                                          > > > literature, personally, or stuff I can't relate
                                          > to.
                                          > > > If the guy's screwing a bug-faced person, I
                                          > don't
                                          > > > want to know about it. I take that as weirdness
                                          > for
                                          > > > weirdness's sake.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > I've had my stuff compared to Zelazny's once or
                                          > > > twice, but, other than that, there aren't a lot
                                          > of
                                          > > > comparisons to make. I've never read anything
                                          > that
                                          > > > I can point to and say "that's what it's like."
                                          > > >
                                          > > > But what I believe it is...is entertaining.
                                          > > > ----- Original Message -----
                                          > > > From: Marc Vun Kannon
                                          > > > To: fantasyfictiondungeon@yahoogroups.com
                                          > > > Sent: Friday, March 31, 2006 12:20 PM
                                          > > > Subject: Re: [Fantasy Fiction Dungeon] Note
                                          > From
                                          > > > Robert Jordan about his medical condition
                                          > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > > > It just seems to me that there is a great
                                          > desire
                                          > > > on
                                          > > > the part of some writers to discard classic
                                          > themes
                                          > > > and
                                          > > > stories in favor of gizmos and gadgets. There
                                          > is
                                          > > > a
                                          > > > vast space between rehashed cliched crap and
                                          > > > material
                                          > > > so cutting-edge the reader can't relate to it.
                                          > I
                                          > > > like
                                          > > > to think my own work, for example, is located
                                          > > > somewhere in that space, or Bujold, Meluch,
                                          > > > Duncan,
                                          > > > Gould, Huff, Hoffman, and many others.
                                          >
                                          === message truncated ===


                                          Marc Vun Kannon

                                          http://www.marcvunkannon.com

                                          Unbinding the Stone--To do the things that Gods cannot.
                                          A Warrior Made--Now available from Echelon Press.
                                          Fantasy at its most magical. Sit and read a spell!

                                          __________________________________________________
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                                        • Matt
                                          Yeah, a origin story would be different. I think the current trope is that they are sons of the earth and have always been around, lording it over lesser
                                          Message 20 of 21 , Apr 4, 2006
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            Yeah, a origin story would be different. I think the current trope
                                            is that they are sons of the earth and have always been around,
                                            lording it over lesser races, strong in magic and might. Or they are
                                            rampaging, power hungry beasts that eat maidens and hoard treasure.
                                            Or they are wise, benevolent well doers who try to steer humans to
                                            better courses of action without really getting involved. It's
                                            usually one of those three. They are always:

                                            1) Immortal
                                            2) Use magic
                                            3) Wise and powerful

                                            I'd like to get away from that.


                                            --- In fantasyfictiondungeon@yahoogroups.com, Marc Vun Kannon
                                            <mvonkann2000@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > Oh, yes, and fun to write. I've had this story in the
                                            > back of my head for a very long time, now, although I
                                            > could never make it work on its own. When my
                                            > publisher asked us for comic fantasies for the Wyrd
                                            > Wravings anthology, I ended up writing an English
                                            > farce about an author trying to write a story, which
                                            > was essentially me and my problems with the dragon
                                            > story. (I guess I was thinking of John Lennon and how
                                            > he ended up writing Nowhere man.) Anyway, I have
                                            > referred to the story in my current novel, A Warrior
                                            > made, and will actually tell it in the next book in
                                            > that series, Tales of Uncle. It's not a tale about
                                            > dragons so much as a tale of how the hero, tarkas,
                                            > accidenatlly puts his foot in it and creates them.
                                            > Sort of. One thing I've never seen is an origin story
                                            > for dragons.
                                            >
                                            > --- Matt <gauvaine@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > > Dragons, now that is something i always have had a
                                            > > fascination with
                                            > > and have wanted to write a novel on. I'm afraid,
                                            > > too, however,
                                            > > because of all the genre books that have dragons as
                                            > > the main
                                            > > element. I'm afraid Christopher Paolini has polluted
                                            > > the well with
                                            > > the dreck he has foisted upon the market. Mercedes
                                            > > Lackey, Andre
                                            > > Norton, Terry Hickman and Margaret Weis, Christopher
                                            > > Rowley, Barbara
                                            > > Hambly have all had the Dragon theme, and there are
                                            > > a score of
                                            > > others. All with different takes and different
                                            > > protagonists and the
                                            > > requisite traits and plot elements, of course. I
                                            > > would just hate for
                                            > > an editor to go "oh, great, another dragon story.
                                            > > slush pile."
                                            > >
                                            > > I still think it's a viable theme and one with lots
                                            > > of places
                                            > > unexplored that would be fun to write. Fun. That's
                                            > > what i like about
                                            > > it. It would be fun. And hopefully fun to read.
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > > \--- In fantasyfictiondungeon@yahoogroups.com, Marc
                                            > > Vun Kannon
                                            > > <mvonkann2000@> wrote:
                                            > > >
                                            > > > Originally the genres started out as stories that
                                            > > put
                                            > > > more of a focus on the genre elements that
                                            > > seperated
                                            > > > it from regular literature. What annoys me about
                                            > > so
                                            > > > much of it is that the story element has gotten
                                            > > lost
                                            > > > in favor of the genre element, not that it needs
                                            > > to
                                            > > > be, but because the writer had some brilliant idea
                                            > > for
                                            > > > some 'new' or 'original' race, magic system,
                                            > > > technological item, quest, throne, etc., and wrote
                                            > > the
                                            > > > story to show off his own brilliance. The
                                            > > characters
                                            > > > are there to move the story along from one
                                            > > performance
                                            > > > to the next. The perfect example of this is Simon
                                            > > R.
                                            > > > Green, whose books are little more than
                                            > > character(s)
                                            > > > walking around from one new object to the next
                                            > > until
                                            > > > the story comes to some relatively uninspired
                                            > > > denouement in which most of these museum exhibits
                                            > > play
                                            > > > no part.
                                            > > > I haven't noticed that having actual scientists
                                            > > and
                                            > > > engineers weigh in has helped anything, except to
                                            > > slow
                                            > > > down an already dull story with a pointless
                                            > > passion
                                            > > > for accuracy. I agree that Spider's books are all
                                            > > > about people, but that's because Spider can
                                            > > actually
                                            > > > write stories. Except, of course, that he
                                            > > continually
                                            > > > tries to be a second-rate Heinlein (who was
                                            > > himself
                                            > > > second-rate) rather than a first-rate Spider.
                                            > > > Uniqueness is not a virtue in stories, since it
                                            > > only
                                            > > > means that no one will understand it. Nor should
                                            > > it
                                            > > > ever have to be striven for. If the story is the
                                            > > > written to satisfy the author, not written for a
                                            > > > demographic, then it will be as unique and
                                            > > original as
                                            > > > the author. My primary concern is to do something
                                            > > that
                                            > > > I've never seen before, but will do what needs to
                                            > > be
                                            > > > done to make my story work. Beyond that it
                                            > > becomes
                                            > > > yet another factor in my story, the consequences
                                            > > of
                                            > > > which I have to discover. Many times I've seen
                                            > > books
                                            > > > that come out after I've finished mine that have
                                            > > much
                                            > > > the same events happen in them, and I worry that
                                            > > > people are going to think I copied them!
                                            > > > But merely making something that's "like a
                                            > > vampire,
                                            > > > except..." is not what I would call original.
                                            > > > Saberhagen's Dracula in The Dracula Tape is far
                                            > > more
                                            > > > original than any of these daylight dwelling,
                                            > > emotion
                                            > > > eating, psychic parasites some people come up
                                            > > with,
                                            > > > especially in the paranormal romance realm where
                                            > > every
                                            > > > other book features a vampire. In my latest novel
                                            > > I
                                            > > > invent vampires completely by accident. I didn't
                                            > > even
                                            > > > realize the character had all the characteristics
                                            > > of a
                                            > > > vampire until after I'd written the story. It's a
                                            > > > fairly standard vampire, but that's okay, since
                                            > > the
                                            > > > story wasn't about him being a vampire. And when
                                            > > I
                                            > > > write my story explaining the origin of dragons,
                                            > > it
                                            > > > won't be because I want to talk about dragons.
                                            > > >
                                            > > > --- Saje <soulsaje@> wrote:
                                            > > >
                                            > > > > Science fiction started out as "gizmos and
                                            > > gadgets"
                                            > > > > written by folks who didn't really know any
                                            > > science.
                                            > > > > Then actual scientists and engineers weighed in
                                            > > and
                                            > > > > it changed the themes a bit. As was quoted in a
                                            > > > > forward to Spider Robinson's Callahan's omnibus
                                            > > > > (which I'm listening to in audio book right now)
                                            > > it
                                            > > > > finally came to be about people.
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > I know what you mean about novelty... I'm don't
                                            > > TRY
                                            > > > > to write something unique--it just so happens
                                            > > that
                                            > > > > my imagination works that way. So far I have
                                            > > yet to
                                            > > > > get a less than glowing review...the only
                                            > > complaint
                                            > > > > I've gotten from a reader is that she didn't
                                            > > like
                                            > > > > the liberties I took with mythological figures.
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > Not that I give a DAMN about that. I kinda
                                            > > figured
                                            > > > > I'd get some of those reactions from the pagan
                                            > > > > community.
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > I like taking familiar themes and doing
                                            > > something
                                            > > > > different with them. I don't like abstract
                                            > > > > literature, personally, or stuff I can't relate
                                            > > to.
                                            > > > > If the guy's screwing a bug-faced person, I
                                            > > don't
                                            > > > > want to know about it. I take that as weirdness
                                            > > for
                                            > > > > weirdness's sake.
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > I've had my stuff compared to Zelazny's once or
                                            > > > > twice, but, other than that, there aren't a lot
                                            > > of
                                            > > > > comparisons to make. I've never read anything
                                            > > that
                                            > > > > I can point to and say "that's what it's like."
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > But what I believe it is...is entertaining.
                                            > > > > ----- Original Message -----
                                            > > > > From: Marc Vun Kannon
                                            > > > > To: fantasyfictiondungeon@yahoogroups.com
                                            > > > > Sent: Friday, March 31, 2006 12:20 PM
                                            > > > > Subject: Re: [Fantasy Fiction Dungeon] Note
                                            > > From
                                            > > > > Robert Jordan about his medical condition
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > It just seems to me that there is a great
                                            > > desire
                                            > > > > on
                                            > > > > the part of some writers to discard classic
                                            > > themes
                                            > > > > and
                                            > > > > stories in favor of gizmos and gadgets. There
                                            > > is
                                            > > > > a
                                            > > > > vast space between rehashed cliched crap and
                                            > > > > material
                                            > > > > so cutting-edge the reader can't relate to it.
                                            > > I
                                            > > > > like
                                            > > > > to think my own work, for example, is located
                                            > > > > somewhere in that space, or Bujold, Meluch,
                                            > > > > Duncan,
                                            > > > > Gould, Huff, Hoffman, and many others.
                                            > >
                                            > === message truncated ===
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > Marc Vun Kannon
                                            >
                                            > http://www.marcvunkannon.com
                                            >
                                            > Unbinding the Stone--To do the things that Gods cannot.
                                            > A Warrior Made--Now available from Echelon Press.
                                            > Fantasy at its most magical. Sit and read a spell!
                                            >
                                            > __________________________________________________
                                            > Do You Yahoo!?
                                            > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                                            > http://mail.yahoo.com
                                            >
                                          • Marc Vun Kannon
                                            Working on it. In mine they re sort of an accident. In my worlds even the gods sometimes screw it up. ... Marc Vun Kannon http://www.marcvunkannon.com
                                            Message 21 of 21 , Apr 4, 2006
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              Working on it. In mine they're sort of an accident.
                                              In my worlds even the gods sometimes screw it up.

                                              --- Matt <gauvaine@...> wrote:

                                              > Yeah, a origin story would be different. I think the
                                              > current trope
                                              > is that they are sons of the earth and have always
                                              > been around,
                                              > lording it over lesser races, strong in magic and
                                              > might. Or they are
                                              > rampaging, power hungry beasts that eat maidens and
                                              > hoard treasure.
                                              > Or they are wise, benevolent well doers who try to
                                              > steer humans to
                                              > better courses of action without really getting
                                              > involved. It's
                                              > usually one of those three. They are always:
                                              >
                                              > 1) Immortal
                                              > 2) Use magic
                                              > 3) Wise and powerful
                                              >
                                              > I'd like to get away from that.
                                              >


                                              Marc Vun Kannon

                                              http://www.marcvunkannon.com

                                              Unbinding the Stone--To do the things that Gods cannot.
                                              A Warrior Made--Now available from Echelon Press.
                                              Fantasy at its most magical. Sit and read a spell!

                                              __________________________________________________
                                              Do You Yahoo!?
                                              Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                                              http://mail.yahoo.com
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