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persuading others to study philosophy and join FI (was: socializing)

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  • Anne B
    On Thu, Nov 30, 2017 at 9:54 PM, Elliot Temple curi@curi.us ... I have two problems with this. 1) I am afraid to direct people to the FI list and don t know
    Message 1 of 17 , Dec 1 9:07 AM
      On Thu, Nov 30, 2017 at 9:54 PM, Elliot Temple curi@...
      [fallible-ideas] <fallible-ideas@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

      > i'd try to persuade close family and friends to become philosophers and join FI, ASAP. if you don't then, in the long run, if you make a ton of intellectual progress and they don't, then you aren't going to like each other anymore.

      I have two problems with this.

      1) I am afraid to direct people to the FI list and don't know where
      else to direct them. I am afraid that they will see some things here
      that will cause them to (metaphorically) run away screaming and then
      they'll never try again. Not everyone is willing to engage with
      someone who sometimes violates social norms in a big way.

      2) I am not yet convinced that everyone needs good philosophy. I am
      enjoying what I'm learning here. I think it'll make me a better
      person. I think I could sell other people on the benefits of thinking
      and communicating more clearly and of more self-honesty and knowledge.
      I'm not as convinced that I could sell them on CR or Objectivism or
      anything else here as being important to their lives.

      “Come with me and we'll save the world by being selfish! Violating
      social norms! Cutting out socializing from our lives! Causing just
      about everyone online to hate us!” I don't think this'll convince
      people in my life.

      I'm not suggesting you change the FI list or websites in any
      particular way, just spelling out my problem of how to share this
      stuff with others in a way that won't scare them away from it.

      Has anyone here successfully persuaded family members or friends from
      real life to join FI and learn more about it? If so, what approach did
      you use?
    • PAS
      ... I think I already knew this partially and inexplicitly. It helps to have ET state it clearly and explicitly. I think it is another reason I haven’t
      Message 2 of 17 , Dec 1 9:52 AM
        On Dec 1, 2017, at 10:07 AM, Anne B <anne52984@...> wrote:

        > On Thu, Nov 30, 2017 at 9:54 PM, Elliot Temple curi@...
        > [fallible-ideas] <fallible-ideas@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
        >
        >> i'd try to persuade close family and friends to become philosophers and join FI, ASAP. if you don't then, in the long run, if you make a ton of intellectual progress and they don't, then you aren't going to like each other anymore.

        I think I already knew this partially and inexplicitly. It helps to have ET state it clearly and explicitly.

        I think it is another reason I haven’t pursued FI seriously. Doing so would come with a high risk of taking me out of a family social context that’s, in conventional terms at least, working pretty well for me.

        > I have two problems with this.
        >
        > 1) I am afraid to direct people to the FI list and don't know where
        > else to direct them. I am afraid that they will see some things here
        > that will cause them to (metaphorically) run away screaming and then
        > they'll never try again. Not everyone is willing to engage with
        > someone who sometimes violates social norms in a big way.

        I’m not afraid of this. I’ve tried it when they come to me to discuss problems. They’ve all looked at FI, at least a little. None have run away screaming, but none have got drawn in even close to the interest level I have.

        I don’t think social norms are the barrier in my case. My guess is it's because they all dislike criticism a lot more than I do. The norms they care about are the ones that block or obfuscate criticism.

        > 2) I am not yet convinced that everyone needs good philosophy. I am
        > enjoying what I'm learning here. I think it'll make me a better
        > person. I think I could sell other people on the benefits of thinking
        > and communicating more clearly and of more self-honesty and knowledge.
        > I'm not as convinced that I could sell them on CR or Objectivism or
        > anything else here as being important to their lives.

        I am not good at selling and I don’t like selling. This comes up repeatedly, in tons of contexts in my life. To give a sense of what I mean, I reject a large share of ideas for important things to do in life because doing those ideas would involve selling of a type or quantity that ’m not comfortable with. I estimate the share of ideas I reject for that reason is over half.

        I don’t know if I didn’t have an aversion to selling if I’d reject most or all of the ideas for other reasons. But selling alone is usually enough.

        I guess that I’d need to overcome my problems with selling in general before I’d even know if I have a problem with selling FI specifically.

        > “Come with me and we'll save the world by being selfish! Violating
        > social norms! Cutting out socializing from our lives! Causing just
        > about everyone online to hate us!” I don't think this'll convince
        > people in my life.
        >
        > I'm not suggesting you change the FI list or websites in any
        > particular way, just spelling out my problem of how to share this
        > stuff with others in a way that won't scare them away from it.
        >
        > Has anyone here successfully persuaded family members or friends from
        > real life to join FI and learn more about it? If so, what approach did
        > you use?

        I have not been successful but like you I’d like to hear from anyone who has.

        PAS
      • Elliot Temple
        ... Note that this conception of working pretty well for me involves *being held back intellectually*. Sounds like a disaster! how can you like people who
        Message 3 of 17 , Dec 1 11:35 AM
          On Dec 1, 2017, at 9:52 AM, PAS <pas@...> wrote:

          > On Dec 1, 2017, at 10:07 AM, Anne B <anne52984@...> wrote:
          >
          >> On Thu, Nov 30, 2017 at 9:54 PM, Elliot Temple curi@...
          >> [fallible-ideas] <fallible-ideas@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
          >>
          >>> i'd try to persuade close family and friends to become philosophers and join FI, ASAP. if you don't then, in the long run, if you make a ton of intellectual progress and they don't, then you aren't going to like each other anymore.
          >
          > I think I already knew this partially and inexplicitly. It helps to have ET state it clearly and explicitly.
          >
          > I think it is another reason I haven’t pursued FI seriously. Doing so would come with a high risk of taking me out of a family social context that’s, in conventional terms at least, working pretty well for me.

          Note that this conception of "working pretty well for me" involves *being held back intellectually*. Sounds like a disaster!

          how can you like people who demand you be *and* stay dumb (and who want to do that themselves), and call that a good relationship that's working well for you?


          >> I have two problems with this.
          >>
          >> 1) I am afraid to direct people to the FI list and don't know where
          >> else to direct them. I am afraid that they will see some things here
          >> that will cause them to (metaphorically) run away screaming and then
          >> they'll never try again. Not everyone is willing to engage with
          >> someone who sometimes violates social norms in a big way.
          >
          > I’m not afraid of this. I’ve tried it when they come to me to discuss problems. They’ve all looked at FI, at least a little. None have run away screaming, but none have got drawn in even close to the interest level I have.
          >
          > I don’t think social norms are the barrier in my case. My guess is it's because they all dislike criticism a lot more than I do. The norms they care about are the ones that block or obfuscate criticism.

          sad

          >> 2) I am not yet convinced that everyone needs good philosophy. I am
          >> enjoying what I'm learning here. I think it'll make me a better
          >> person. I think I could sell other people on the benefits of thinking
          >> and communicating more clearly and of more self-honesty and knowledge.
          >> I'm not as convinced that I could sell them on CR or Objectivism or
          >> anything else here as being important to their lives.
          >
          > I am not good at selling and I don’t like selling. This comes up repeatedly, in tons of contexts in my life. To give a sense of what I mean, I reject a large share of ideas for important things to do in life because doing those ideas would involve selling of a type or quantity that ’m not comfortable with. I estimate the share of ideas I reject for that reason is over half.
          >
          > I don’t know if I didn’t have an aversion to selling if I’d reject most or all of the ideas for other reasons. But selling alone is usually enough.
          >
          > I guess that I’d need to overcome my problems with selling in general before I’d even know if I have a problem with selling FI specifically.

          are you also adverse to *persuading* in the same way?

          e.g. would you have a problem with writing a pro-capitalism essay for a blog or multi-author collection book?


          Elliot Temple
          www.curi.us
        • Elliot Temple
          ... you could direct them to links to things to read (or video or audio). also the newsletter. ... without it, they will make mistakes, not correct those
          Message 4 of 17 , Dec 1 11:57 AM
            On Dec 1, 2017, at 9:07 AM, Anne B <anne52984@...> wrote:

            > On Thu, Nov 30, 2017 at 9:54 PM, Elliot Temple curi@...
            > [fallible-ideas] <fallible-ideas@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
            >
            >> i'd try to persuade close family and friends to become philosophers and join FI, ASAP. if you don't then, in the long run, if you make a ton of intellectual progress and they don't, then you aren't going to like each other anymore.
            >
            > I have two problems with this.
            >
            > 1) I am afraid to direct people to the FI list and don't know where
            > else to direct them.

            you could direct them to links to things to read (or video or audio). also the newsletter.

            > I am afraid that they will see some things here
            > that will cause them to (metaphorically) run away screaming and then
            > they'll never try again. Not everyone is willing to engage with
            > someone who sometimes violates social norms in a big way.
            >
            > 2) I am not yet convinced that everyone needs good philosophy.

            without it, they will make mistakes, not correct those mistakes, and devote their life to mistakes. won't they?

            except it's worse than that b/c they largely won't even make their own mistakes, they'll just repeat old mistakes b/c static memes run their lives.

            your choices in life are basically to think or not to think. philosophy is the name of the field which helps you think well – it has tools, methods, etc. so for those who choose to think, they need philosophy. btw read Rand's *philosophy who needs it*, first 2 chapters.


            > I am
            > enjoying what I'm learning here. I think it'll make me a better
            > person. I think I could sell other people on the benefits of thinking
            > and communicating more clearly and of more self-honesty and knowledge.
            > I'm not as convinced that I could sell them on CR or Objectivism or
            > anything else here as being important to their lives.
            >
            > “Come with me and we'll save the world by being selfish! Violating
            > social norms! Cutting out socializing from our lives! Causing just
            > about everyone online to hate us!” I don't think this'll convince
            > people in my life.

            forget saving the world, ppl need to save themselves first – and *have* a self at all – instead of being secondhanders.

            as to CR, if they want to learn much of anything, CR is the best tool. it doesn't just help you learn 5x more effectively, it also dramatically lowers the failure rate where you "learn" falsehoods.


            Elliot Temple
            www.elliottemple.com
          • PAS
            ... It’s not a demand. I think that’s a mischaracterization of the issue. I think your original statement had the issue much closer to correct with
            Message 5 of 17 , Dec 1 12:36 PM
              On Dec 1, 2017, at 12:35 PM, Elliot Temple curi@... [fallible-ideas] <fallible-ideas@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

              > On Dec 1, 2017, at 9:52 AM, PAS <pas@... <mailto:pas@...>> wrote:
              >
              >> On Dec 1, 2017, at 10:07 AM, Anne B <anne52984@...> wrote:
              >>
              >>> On Thu, Nov 30, 2017 at 9:54 PM, Elliot Temple curi@...
              >>> [fallible-ideas] <fallible-ideas@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
              >>>
              >>>> i'd try to persuade close family and friends to become philosophers and join FI, ASAP. if you don't then, in the long run, if you make a ton of intellectual progress and they don't, then you aren't going to like each other anymore.
              >>
              >> I think I already knew this partially and inexplicitly. It helps to have ET state it clearly and explicitly.
              >>
              >> I think it is another reason I haven’t pursued FI seriously. Doing so would come with a high risk of taking me out of a family social context that’s, in conventional terms at least, working pretty well for me.
              >
              > Note that this conception of "working pretty well for me" involves *being held back intellectually*. Sounds like a disaster!
              >
              > how can you like people who demand you be *and* stay dumb (and who want to do that themselves), and call that a good relationship that's working well for you?

              It’s not a demand. I think that’s a mischaracterization of the issue. I think your original statement had the issue much closer to correct with “...then you aren't going to like each other anymore.”

              The issue I see is about an emergent property of the family relationship. I’ll call the emergent property compatibility. Compatibility is as much or more about me and what I want as it is about them and what they want.

              There’s more to compatibility than just liking each other - stuff like being interested in doing some significant shared projects, having approaches to problem solving that succeed some at improving things, being able to have useful discussions, etc. But liking each other is important too.

              I think you’ll agree that pursuing FI seriously would bring huge changes to what projects are interesting, what approaches to problem solving are preferred/tolerated, what discussion methods are used, and what kinds of people are likable.

              So if one person in a family pursues FI seriously and the others don’t, I think it’s reasonable to guess that family members who were formerly compatible might become incompatible because of the changes pursuing FI caused.


              >>> 2) I am not yet convinced that everyone needs good philosophy. I am
              >>> enjoying what I'm learning here. I think it'll make me a better
              >>> person. I think I could sell other people on the benefits of thinking
              >>> and communicating more clearly and of more self-honesty and knowledge.
              >>> I'm not as convinced that I could sell them on CR or Objectivism or
              >>> anything else here as being important to their lives.
              >>
              >> I am not good at selling and I don’t like selling. This comes up repeatedly, in tons of contexts in my life. To give a sense of what I mean, I reject a large share of ideas for important things to do in life because doing those ideas would involve selling of a type or quantity that ’m not comfortable with. I estimate the share of ideas I reject for that reason is over half.
              >>
              >> I don’t know if I didn’t have an aversion to selling if I’d reject most or all of the ideas for other reasons. But selling alone is usually enough.
              >>
              >> I guess that I’d need to overcome my problems with selling in general before I’d even know if I have a problem with selling FI specifically.
              >
              > are you also adverse to *persuading* in the same way?
              >
              > e.g. would you have a problem with writing a pro-capitalism essay for a blog or multi-author collection book?

              I don’t think I’m averse(1) to all persuading like I am averse to selling. I don’t have an aversion to writing essays about abstract topics like capitalism.

              The closer communication gets to a request for specific action, the more I’m averse to it. The more specific to an individual person it is, the more I’m averse to it. And the more I stand to benefit personally from the request, the more I’m averse to it.

              PAS

              (1) I think averse rather than adverse is the proper word for what we’re discussing. My understanding is that averse is a word for something you don’t like, whereas adverse is something that causes you harm. See ex: http://grammarist.com/usage/adverse-averse/ <http://grammarist.com/usage/adverse-averse/>



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Elliot Temple
              ... plz don t post HTML. anyway u are involved with structures/ppl/whatever in ur life that *are incompatible with making much progress*. that s really bad –
              Message 6 of 17 , Dec 1 12:51 PM
                On Dec 1, 2017, at 12:36 PM, PAS <pas@...> wrote:

                > The issue I see is about an emergent property of the family relationship. I’ll call the emergent property compatibility. Compatibility is as much or more about me and what I want as it is about them and what they want.
                >
                > There’s more to compatibility than just liking each other - stuff like being interested in doing some significant shared projects, having approaches to problem solving that succeed some at improving things, being able to have useful discussions, etc. But liking each other is important too.
                >
                > I think you’ll agree that pursuing FI seriously would bring huge changes to what projects are interesting, what approaches to problem solving are preferred/tolerated, what discussion methods are used, and what kinds of people are likable.
                >
                > So if one person in a family pursues FI seriously and the others don’t, I think it’s reasonable to guess that family members who were formerly compatible might become incompatible because of the changes pursuing FI caused.

                plz don't post HTML.

                anyway u are involved with structures/ppl/whatever in ur life that *are incompatible with making much progress*. that's really bad – it discourages progress. u should seek out structures/ppl/whatever that are compatible with unbounded progress. u should get involved with stuff with good mechanisms for error correction, making progress, adapting to be compatible with progress, etc, rather than static stuff that breaks in the face of change.

                Elliot Temple
                www.curi.us
              • PAS
                ... I installed a new OS and forgot to set plain text in mail preferences. I think it’s fixed now. I sent myself a test message and it didn’t contain HTML
                Message 7 of 17 , Dec 1 1:38 PM
                  On Dec 1, 2017, at 1:51 PM, Elliot Temple <curi@...> wrote:

                  > On Dec 1, 2017, at 12:36 PM, PAS <pas@...> wrote:
                  >
                  >> The issue I see is about an emergent property of the family relationship. I’ll call the emergent property compatibility. Compatibility is as much or more about me and what I want as it is about them and what they want.
                  >>
                  >> There’s more to compatibility than just liking each other - stuff like being interested in doing some significant shared projects, having approaches to problem solving that succeed some at improving things, being able to have useful discussions, etc. But liking each other is important too.
                  >>
                  >> I think you’ll agree that pursuing FI seriously would bring huge changes to what projects are interesting, what approaches to problem solving are preferred/tolerated, what discussion methods are used, and what kinds of people are likable.
                  >>
                  >> So if one person in a family pursues FI seriously and the others don’t, I think it’s reasonable to guess that family members who were formerly compatible might become incompatible because of the changes pursuing FI caused.
                  >
                  > plz don't post HTML.

                  I installed a new OS and forgot to set plain text in mail preferences. I think it’s fixed now. I sent myself a test message and it didn’t contain HTML but let me know if this one does.

                  > anyway u are involved with structures/ppl/whatever in ur life that *are incompatible with making much progress*. that's really bad – it discourages progress. u should seek out structures/ppl/whatever that are compatible with unbounded progress. u should get involved with stuff with good mechanisms for error correction, making progress, adapting to be compatible with progress, etc, rather than static stuff that breaks in the face of change.

                  Seems like OK advice for starting out / new stuff. But I don’t think it’s much help in dealing with my current situation.

                  One high level question is what to do with the existing structures/ppl/etc. Like:
                  - Issue warnings / declarations, like keep up or else we’re probably going to become incompatible
                  - Just pursue my own progress without worrying about becoming incompatible with them and whatever happens, happens
                  - Eject them from my life proactively
                  - Try to guess what a good time will be to make a significant life change, then do one of the above at that time rather than now
                  - Keep trying to sell them on doing things like pursue FI that would help them be compatible with change, and be cautious with my own progress until / unless they do
                  - Something else…

                  PAS
                • Elliot Temple
                  ... i know. i was attempting to clarify my criticism of the current situation. i didn t include a transition plan to fix it (beyond advising persuading them of
                  Message 8 of 17 , Dec 1 1:55 PM
                    On Dec 1, 2017, at 1:38 PM, PAS <pas@...> wrote:

                    > On Dec 1, 2017, at 1:51 PM, Elliot Temple <curi@...> wrote:
                    >
                    >> On Dec 1, 2017, at 12:36 PM, PAS <pas@...> wrote:
                    >>
                    >>> The issue I see is about an emergent property of the family relationship. I’ll call the emergent property compatibility. Compatibility is as much or more about me and what I want as it is about them and what they want.
                    >>>
                    >>> There’s more to compatibility than just liking each other - stuff like being interested in doing some significant shared projects, having approaches to problem solving that succeed some at improving things, being able to have useful discussions, etc. But liking each other is important too.
                    >>>
                    >>> I think you’ll agree that pursuing FI seriously would bring huge changes to what projects are interesting, what approaches to problem solving are preferred/tolerated, what discussion methods are used, and what kinds of people are likable.
                    >>>
                    >>> So if one person in a family pursues FI seriously and the others don’t, I think it’s reasonable to guess that family members who were formerly compatible might become incompatible because of the changes pursuing FI caused.
                    >>
                    >> plz don't post HTML.
                    >
                    > I installed a new OS and forgot to set plain text in mail preferences. I think it’s fixed now. I sent myself a test message and it didn’t contain HTML but let me know if this one does.
                    >
                    >> anyway u are involved with structures/ppl/whatever in ur life that *are incompatible with making much progress*. that's really bad – it discourages progress. u should seek out structures/ppl/whatever that are compatible with unbounded progress. u should get involved with stuff with good mechanisms for error correction, making progress, adapting to be compatible with progress, etc, rather than static stuff that breaks in the face of change.
                    >
                    > Seems like OK advice for starting out / new stuff. But I don’t think it’s much help in dealing with my current situation.

                    i know. i was attempting to clarify my criticism of the current situation. i didn't include a transition plan to fix it (beyond advising persuading them of FI). i don't intend to attempt that given, among other things, your unwillingness to post much info about your situation.


                    > One high level question is what to do with the existing structures/ppl/etc. Like:
                    > - Issue warnings / declarations, like keep up or else we’re probably going to become incompatible

                    i would do that.

                    > - Just pursue my own progress without worrying about becoming incompatible with them and whatever happens, happens

                    that too.

                    > - Eject them from my life proactively

                    not how you mean it, not immediately, but perhaps more proactively than you have in mind.

                    as problem dynamics come up, ppl often just kinda live with them for a long time and it takes something HUGE to get them to change much.

                    i think you already have problem dynamics i would consider unacceptable. so if it was me i'd clarify that and attempt to engage in *urgent* problem solving. i suspect, for you, that wouldn't be proactive at this point but belated.

                    > - Try to guess what a good time will be to make a significant life change, then do one of the above at that time rather than now

                    now, now now. (ok ok, *soon*. maybe, legitimately, this week is bad timing. maybe even, conceivably, this month is bad. but FI stuff is urgent. trying to have a good life, more like Galt or Roark, doesn't just wait a few years.)

                    > - Keep trying to sell them on doing things like pursue FI that would help them be compatible with change, and be cautious with my own progress until / unless they do

                    i would try to persuade them of stuff ASAP, and try to quickly reach some kind of resolution (either they do FI or don't do FI, rather than it being indefinitely ambiguous). but i also wouldn't have gotten myself in your situation in the first place – the situation of already knowing a lot about FI while they don't. you *already* did a ton of FI without them.

                    having intellectually incompatible family members and close friends is such a bad idea. i understand and sympathize with how this can happen with your own children, by accident, and you don't know what to do about it and still have to deal with them. but for the rest, either you're dealing with the in a voluntary, chosen way (e.g. spouse) or you don't really need them in your life in a big way (as an adult, gradually becoming intellectually different than your mom and brother, and then not being close with them, is acceptable, not a disaster.)

                    Elliot Temple
                    www.elliottemple.com
                  • PAS
                    ... OK. For now I think just talking about a few pieces of a possible plan, like below, is fine. And I don’t think most of the personal details I don’t
                    Message 9 of 17 , Dec 2 8:26 AM
                      On Dec 1, 2017, at 2:55 PM, Elliot Temple <curi@...> wrote:

                      > On Dec 1, 2017, at 1:38 PM, PAS <pas@...> wrote:
                      >
                      >> On Dec 1, 2017, at 1:51 PM, Elliot Temple <curi@...> wrote:
                      >>
                      >>> On Dec 1, 2017, at 12:36 PM, PAS <pas@...> wrote:
                      >>>
                      >>>> The issue I see is about an emergent property of the family relationship. I’ll call the emergent property compatibility. Compatibility is as much or more about me and what I want as it is about them and what they want.
                      >>>>
                      >>>> There’s more to compatibility than just liking each other - stuff like being interested in doing some significant shared projects, having approaches to problem solving that succeed some at improving things, being able to have useful discussions, etc. But liking each other is important too.
                      >>>>
                      >>>> I think you’ll agree that pursuing FI seriously would bring huge changes to what projects are interesting, what approaches to problem solving are preferred/tolerated, what discussion methods are used, and what kinds of people are likable.
                      >>>>
                      >>>> So if one person in a family pursues FI seriously and the others don’t, I think it’s reasonable to guess that family members who were formerly compatible might become incompatible because of the changes pursuing FI caused.


                      >>> anyway u are involved with structures/ppl/whatever in ur life that *are incompatible with making much progress*. that's really bad – it discourages progress. u should seek out structures/ppl/whatever that are compatible with unbounded progress. u should get involved with stuff with good mechanisms for error correction, making progress, adapting to be compatible with progress, etc, rather than static stuff that breaks in the face of change.
                      >>
                      >> Seems like OK advice for starting out / new stuff. But I don’t think it’s much help in dealing with my current situation.
                      >
                      > i know. i was attempting to clarify my criticism of the current situation. i didn't include a transition plan to fix it (beyond advising persuading them of FI). i don't intend to attempt that given, among other things, your unwillingness to post much info about your situation.

                      OK. For now I think just talking about a few pieces of a possible plan, like below, is fine. And I don’t think most of the personal details I don’t want to talk about matter much for that.

                      >> One high level question is what to do with the existing structures/ppl/etc. Like:
                      >> - Issue warnings / declarations, like keep up or else we’re probably going to become incompatible
                      >
                      > i would do that.
                      >
                      >> - Just pursue my own progress without worrying about becoming incompatible with them and whatever happens, happens
                      >
                      > that too.
                      >
                      >> - Eject them from my life proactively
                      >
                      > not how you mean it, not immediately, but perhaps more proactively than you have in mind.
                      >
                      > as problem dynamics come up, ppl often just kinda live with them for a long time and it takes something HUGE to get them to change much.
                      >
                      > i think you already have problem dynamics i would consider unacceptable. so if it was me i'd clarify that and attempt to engage in *urgent* problem solving. i suspect, for you, that wouldn't be proactive at this point but belated.
                      >
                      >> - Try to guess what a good time will be to make a significant life change, then do one of the above at that time rather than now
                      >
                      > now, now now. (ok ok, *soon*. maybe, legitimately, this week is bad timing. maybe even, conceivably, this month is bad. but FI stuff is urgent. trying to have a good life, more like Galt or Roark, doesn't just wait a few years.)
                      >
                      >> - Keep trying to sell them on doing things like pursue FI that would help them be compatible with change, and be cautious with my own progress until / unless they do
                      >
                      > i would try to persuade them of stuff ASAP, and try to quickly reach some kind of resolution (either they do FI or don't do FI, rather than it being indefinitely ambiguous). but i also wouldn't have gotten myself in your situation in the first place – the situation of already knowing a lot about FI while they don't. you *already* did a ton of FI without them.

                      Here’s why I think I should mostly not do the things you say you would do.

                      This family compatibility issue is just the latest in a string of conjectures I have about why I’m not pursuing FI seriously. I think I’ve discussed all of the conjectures in one way or another on FI or its related venues.

                      A brief statement of the list of conjectures I have:
                      - I don’t have enough time to pursue personal interests in my life in general, so I feel deprived of what little I do have if I seriously pursue FI
                      - I undervalue philosophy - I’m not convinced that seriously pursuing FI is the best thing I could do in life
                      - I prefer other pursuits to FI even if I am convinced seriously pursuing FI is best — and I don’t know how to change my preferences so that I prefer what’s best
                      - I think of seriously pursuing FI as a high risk / high reward life strategy, and I’m too risk averse for it even if I otherwise want it
                      - I don’t want to learn / be convinced that a bunch of stuff I’ve already done in life was evil, which I expect seriously pursuing FI to include
                      - I care about what a broad social circle (roughly: family I don’t live with + friends + colleagues) think of me and seriously pursuing FI would be perceived badly by them
                      - I have emotional blockers against some tasks I’d need to do to pursue FI seriously like book reading and video game playing
                      - I don’t like criticism enough to tolerate what would be required to pursue FI seriously
                      …and now…
                      - I don’t want to become intellectually incompatible with the family I currently live with, which I think is likely if I pursue FI seriously

                      I can’t rule any of these out right now. It’s possible they all not only play a role, but a decisive role. Meaning, it’s possible that unless I fix *all* of them, I won’t pursue FI seriously. And I don’t know how to fix all of them.

                      And there may be more I haven’t thought of yet! I think that’s more likely than with the addition of family compatibility the list is now finally complete.

                      That leads to a guess that if I do what you say you would do, the most likely outcome is that I burn my household down and I still don’t pursue FI seriously because of other blocker(s).

                      Tangent: I think my list is different but not necessarily longer or more severe than most other people on FI. I’m not pessimistic about it in the long term, but it’s not something I expect to solve in the next month or year. I consider it good progress just to have been able to create the above list.

                      > having intellectually incompatible family members and close friends is such a bad idea. i understand and sympathize with how this can happen with your own children, by accident, and you don't know what to do about it and still have to deal with them. but for the rest, either you're dealing with the in a voluntary, chosen way (e.g. spouse) or you don't really need them in your life in a big way (as an adult, gradually becoming intellectually different than your mom and brother, and then not being close with them, is acceptable, not a disaster.)

                      To the best of my knowledge I am dealing with the family I live with in a voluntary, chosen way. That’s why I worded the problem as I did, “I don’t want to become intellectually incompatible…” If I wanted to, or didn’t care, this would be a much different problem.

                      Also, to be absolutely clear: I am not currently intellectually incompatible with my household. Pursuing FI as a hobby, when no one else in the house does, is very much compatible with the intellectual climate of my household.

                      Also, this concern isn’t at all about family that I don’t currently live with. I’ve been intellectually incompatible with those people since long before FI or its predecessors. While I do have some problems because of that, it is approximately as you say “acceptable, not a disaster."

                      PAS
                    • Elliot Temple
                      ... tl;dr b/c they make sense given very strong/pure/serious FI interest, which isn t your situation. ... Not doing lots of FI (aka relying on static memes) is
                      Message 10 of 17 , Dec 2 4:43 PM
                        On Dec 2, 2017, at 8:26 AM, PAS <pas@...> wrote:

                        > On Dec 1, 2017, at 2:55 PM, Elliot Temple <curi@...> wrote:
                        >
                        >> On Dec 1, 2017, at 1:38 PM, PAS <pas@...> wrote:
                        >>
                        >>> On Dec 1, 2017, at 1:51 PM, Elliot Temple <curi@...> wrote:
                        >>>
                        >>>> On Dec 1, 2017, at 12:36 PM, PAS <pas@...> wrote:
                        >>>>
                        >>>>> The issue I see is about an emergent property of the family relationship. I’ll call the emergent property compatibility. Compatibility is as much or more about me and what I want as it is about them and what they want.
                        >>>>>
                        >>>>> There’s more to compatibility than just liking each other - stuff like being interested in doing some significant shared projects, having approaches to problem solving that succeed some at improving things, being able to have useful discussions, etc. But liking each other is important too.
                        >>>>>
                        >>>>> I think you’ll agree that pursuing FI seriously would bring huge changes to what projects are interesting, what approaches to problem solving are preferred/tolerated, what discussion methods are used, and what kinds of people are likable.
                        >>>>>
                        >>>>> So if one person in a family pursues FI seriously and the others don’t, I think it’s reasonable to guess that family members who were formerly compatible might become incompatible because of the changes pursuing FI caused.
                        >
                        >
                        >>>> anyway u are involved with structures/ppl/whatever in ur life that *are incompatible with making much progress*. that's really bad – it discourages progress. u should seek out structures/ppl/whatever that are compatible with unbounded progress. u should get involved with stuff with good mechanisms for error correction, making progress, adapting to be compatible with progress, etc, rather than static stuff that breaks in the face of change.
                        >>>
                        >>> Seems like OK advice for starting out / new stuff. But I don’t think it’s much help in dealing with my current situation.
                        >>
                        >> i know. i was attempting to clarify my criticism of the current situation. i didn't include a transition plan to fix it (beyond advising persuading them of FI). i don't intend to attempt that given, among other things, your unwillingness to post much info about your situation.
                        >
                        > OK. For now I think just talking about a few pieces of a possible plan, like below, is fine. And I don’t think most of the personal details I don’t want to talk about matter much for that.
                        >
                        >>> One high level question is what to do with the existing structures/ppl/etc. Like:
                        >>> - Issue warnings / declarations, like keep up or else we’re probably going to become incompatible
                        >>
                        >> i would do that.
                        >>
                        >>> - Just pursue my own progress without worrying about becoming incompatible with them and whatever happens, happens
                        >>
                        >> that too.
                        >>
                        >>> - Eject them from my life proactively
                        >>
                        >> not how you mean it, not immediately, but perhaps more proactively than you have in mind.
                        >>
                        >> as problem dynamics come up, ppl often just kinda live with them for a long time and it takes something HUGE to get them to change much.
                        >>
                        >> i think you already have problem dynamics i would consider unacceptable. so if it was me i'd clarify that and attempt to engage in *urgent* problem solving. i suspect, for you, that wouldn't be proactive at this point but belated.
                        >>
                        >>> - Try to guess what a good time will be to make a significant life change, then do one of the above at that time rather than now
                        >>
                        >> now, now now. (ok ok, *soon*. maybe, legitimately, this week is bad timing. maybe even, conceivably, this month is bad. but FI stuff is urgent. trying to have a good life, more like Galt or Roark, doesn't just wait a few years.)
                        >>
                        >>> - Keep trying to sell them on doing things like pursue FI that would help them be compatible with change, and be cautious with my own progress until / unless they do
                        >>
                        >> i would try to persuade them of stuff ASAP, and try to quickly reach some kind of resolution (either they do FI or don't do FI, rather than it being indefinitely ambiguous). but i also wouldn't have gotten myself in your situation in the first place – the situation of already knowing a lot about FI while they don't. you *already* did a ton of FI without them.
                        >
                        > Here’s why I think I should mostly not do the things you say you would do.

                        tl;dr b/c they make sense given very strong/pure/serious FI interest, which isn't your situation.


                        > This family compatibility issue is just the latest in a string of conjectures I have about why I’m not pursuing FI seriously. I think I’ve discussed all of the conjectures in one way or another on FI or its related venues.
                        >
                        > A brief statement of the list of conjectures I have:
                        > - I don’t have enough time to pursue personal interests in my life in general, so I feel deprived of what little I do have if I seriously pursue FI
                        > - I undervalue philosophy - I’m not convinced that seriously pursuing FI is the best thing I could do in life
                        > - I prefer other pursuits to FI even if I am convinced seriously pursuing FI is best — and I don’t know how to change my preferences so that I prefer what’s best
                        > - I think of seriously pursuing FI as a high risk / high reward life strategy, and I’m too risk averse for it even if I otherwise want it

                        Not doing lots of FI (aka relying on static memes) is a high-risk/low-reward strategy.

                        > - I don’t want to learn / be convinced that a bunch of stuff I’ve already done in life was evil, which I expect seriously pursuing FI to include
                        > - I care about what a broad social circle (roughly: family I don’t live with + friends + colleagues) think of me and seriously pursuing FI would be perceived badly by them
                        > - I have emotional blockers against some tasks I’d need to do to pursue FI seriously like book reading and video game playing

                        video games are not mandatory (you said "need"). book reading is not mandatory in the short term while not wanting to.

                        > - I don’t like criticism enough to tolerate what would be required to pursue FI seriously
                        > …and now…
                        > - I don’t want to become intellectually incompatible with the family I currently live with, which I think is likely if I pursue FI seriously
                        >
                        > I can’t rule any of these out right now. It’s possible they all not only play a role, but a decisive role. Meaning, it’s possible that unless I fix *all* of them, I won’t pursue FI seriously. And I don’t know how to fix all of them.
                        >
                        > And there may be more I haven’t thought of yet! I think that’s more likely than with the addition of family compatibility the list is now finally complete.
                        >
                        > That leads to a guess that if I do what you say you would do, the most likely outcome is that I burn my household down and I still don’t pursue FI seriously because of other blocker(s).

                        i am not recommending doing what i would do in regards to one part of life, while not doing what i would do in lots of other ways. that wouldn't make sense.

                        > Tangent: I think my list is different but not necessarily longer or more severe than most other people on FI. I’m not pessimistic about it in the long term, but it’s not something I expect to solve in the next month or year. I consider it good progress just to have been able to create the above list.

                        you may also benefit from some other lists, e.g. about downsides of convention, risks of non-FI, static meme dangers, what you think is *good* about conventional lives and the interests/activities/conversations/etc of your family/friends (i know you see *some* criticism of such things; clarifying what you think the good, valuable parts are can clarify matters), etc.


                        Elliot Temple
                        www.curi.us
                      • anonymous FI
                        ... Why did you say this? Why are you comparing to others? Are you defensive? Do you feel judged about this?
                        Message 11 of 17 , Dec 3 1:15 PM
                          On Dec 2, 2017, at 8:26 AM, PAS <pas@...> wrote:

                          > Tangent: I think my list is different but not necessarily longer or
                          > more severe than most other people on FI. I’m not pessimistic about
                          > it in the long term, but it’s not something I expect to solve in the
                          > next month or year. I consider it good progress just to have been able
                          > to create the above list.

                          Why did you say this? Why are you comparing to others? Are you
                          defensive? Do you feel judged about this?
                        • PAS
                          ... I said it because after writing my list I thought for a while about how maybe the length and severity of the list meant that I was a bad candidate for FI.
                          Message 12 of 17 , Dec 3 6:51 PM
                            On Dec 3, 2017, at 2:15 PM, anonymous FI <anonymousfallibleideas@...> wrote:

                            > On Dec 2, 2017, at 8:26 AM, PAS <pas@...> wrote:
                            >
                            >> Tangent: I think my list is different but not necessarily longer or more severe than most other people on FI. I’m not pessimistic about it in the long term, but it’s not something I expect to solve in the next month or year. I consider it good progress just to have been able to create the above list.
                            >
                            > Why did you say this? Why are you comparing to others? Are you defensive? Do you feel judged about this?

                            I said it because after writing my list I thought for a while about how maybe the length and severity of the list meant that I was a bad candidate for FI.

                            I rejected the idea I’m a bad candidate for FI because of my guess that most other people on FI would have a similarly difficult list if they thought about their own blockers as much as I have. And my (previously unstated) guess that people not on FI would have an even more difficult list.

                            I compare to others as a matter of both explicit and implicit policy. One major reason is approximately: I think that lots of objective outcomes for individuals are determined by their relative position rather than absolute position. It’s possible that relative position is an important factor only for individuals who aren't extreme outliers. My life and thinking are calibrated for being at the high end of normal rather than extreme outlier.

                            I am defensive at least about the recommendation that I seriously study FI now. I don’t think that’s correct for my situation. Yet I also don’t think it is correct to give up and conclude that I will never seriously study FI.

                            I do feel judged about this, but I don’t think that bothers me. I judge and expect to be judged.

                            PAS
                          • anonymous FI
                            ... Why do you think how good or bad a candidate you are depends on how you compare to other candidates? It doesn t. ... You aren t doing what Rand, Roark,
                            Message 13 of 17 , Dec 3 7:17 PM
                              On Dec 3, 2017, at 18:51 PM, PAS <pas@...> wrote:

                              > On Dec 3, 2017, at 2:15 PM, anonymous FI
                              > <anonymousfallibleideas@...> wrote:
                              >
                              >> On Dec 2, 2017, at 8:26 AM, PAS <pas@...> wrote:
                              >>
                              >>> Tangent: I think my list is different but not necessarily longer or
                              >>> more severe than most other people on FI. I’m not pessimistic
                              >>> about it in the long term, but it’s not something I expect to
                              >>> solve in the next month or year. I consider it good progress just to
                              >>> have been able to create the above list.
                              >>
                              >> Why did you say this? Why are you comparing to others? Are you
                              >> defensive? Do you feel judged about this?
                              >
                              > I said it because after writing my list I thought for a while about
                              > how maybe the length and severity of the list meant that I was a bad
                              > candidate for FI.
                              >
                              > I rejected the idea I’m a bad candidate for FI because of my guess
                              > that most other people on FI would have a similarly difficult list if
                              > they thought about their own blockers as much as I have. And my
                              > (previously unstated) guess that people not on FI would have an even
                              > more difficult list.

                              Why do you think how good or bad a candidate you are depends on how you
                              compare to other candidates? It doesn't.


                              > I compare to others as a matter of both explicit and implicit policy.
                              > One major reason is approximately: I think that lots of objective
                              > outcomes for individuals are determined by their relative position
                              > rather than absolute position. It’s possible that relative position
                              > is an important factor only for individuals who aren't extreme
                              > outliers. My life and thinking are calibrated for being at the high
                              > end of normal rather than extreme outlier.
                              >
                              > I am defensive at least about the recommendation that I seriously
                              > study FI now. I don’t think that’s correct for my situation. Yet I
                              > also don’t think it is correct to give up and conclude that I will
                              > never seriously study FI.
                              >
                              > I do feel judged about this, but I don’t think that bothers me. I
                              > judge and expect to be judged.

                              You aren't doing what Rand, Roark, Galt, Dagny, Francisco or Rearden
                              would do. Do you agree with that?

                              If you thought you'd ever be much like them, you wouldn't throw away
                              years of your life delaying it.
                            • Kate Sams
                              ... Suppose we *all* (except ET) are bad candidates for FI. It’s not like good or bad FI candidacy is something which is graded on a curve. Reminds me of
                              Message 14 of 17 , Dec 4 7:55 AM
                                On Dec 3, 2017, at 9:51 PM, PAS pas@... [fallible-ideas] <fallible-ideas@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

                                > On Dec 3, 2017, at 2:15 PM, anonymous FI <anonymousfallibleideas@...> wrote:
                                >
                                >> On Dec 2, 2017, at 8:26 AM, PAS <pas@...> wrote:
                                >>
                                >>> Tangent: I think my list is different but not necessarily longer or more severe than most other people on FI. I’m not pessimistic about it in the long term, but it’s not something I expect to solve in the next month or year. I consider it good progress just to have been able to create the above list.
                                >>
                                >> Why did you say this? Why are you comparing to others? Are you defensive? Do you feel judged about this?
                                >
                                > I said it because after writing my list I thought for a while about how maybe the length and severity of the list meant that I was a bad candidate for FI.
                                >
                                > I rejected the idea I’m a bad candidate for FI because of my guess that most other people on FI would have a similarly difficult list if they thought about their own blockers as much as I have. And my (previously unstated) guess that people not on FI would have an even more difficult list.

                                Suppose we *all* (except ET) are bad candidates for FI. It’s not like good or bad FI candidacy is something which is graded on a curve.

                                Reminds me of this:

                                http://yudkowsky.net/rational/virtues/

                                > Because this world contains many whose grasp of rationality is abysmal, beginning students of rationality win arguments and acquire an exaggerated view of their own abilities. But it is useless to be superior: Life is not graded on a curve. The best physicist in ancient Greece could not calculate the path of a falling apple. There is no guarantee that adequacy is possible given your hardest effort; therefore spare no thought for whether others are doing worse. If you compare yourself to others you will not see the biases that all humans share. To be human is to make ten thousand errors. No one in this world achieves perfection.

                                end quote

                                > I compare to others as a matter of both explicit and implicit policy. One major reason is approximately: I think that lots of objective outcomes for individuals are determined by their relative position rather than absolute position. It’s possible that relative position is an important factor only for individuals who aren't extreme outliers. My life and thinking are calibrated for being at the high end of normal rather than extreme outlier.

                                So then do you sometimes notice yourself viewing others as rivals or threats?

                                Also, remember this post: https://thelastpsychiatrist.com/2011/10/marc_marons_mid-life_crisis.html

                                > So other people's successes don't exist independently, they necessarily provide a commentary, a value, about oneself. His success reflexively implies you're less of a success; his failure reflexively means you're more of a success.


                                Are there parts of you which can relate to this?

                                If the answer is yes to either of these questions, do you find that problematic?


                                Here are some relevant FH quotes describing this part of the second-handed mindset.

                                > The crowd was there, thought Peter Keating, to see him graduate, and he tried to estimate the capacity of the hall. They knew of his scholastic record and no one would beat his record today. Oh, well, there was Shlinker. Shlinker had given him stiff competition, but he had beaten Shlinker this last year. He had worked like a dog, because he had wanted to beat Shlinker. He had no rivals today....Then he felt suddenly as if something had fallen down, inside his throat, to his stomach, something cold and empty, a blank hole rolling down and leaving that feeling on its way: not a thought, just the hint of a question asking him whether he was really as great as this day would proclaim him to be. He looked for Shlinker in the crowd; he saw his yellow face and gold-rimmed glasses. He stared at Shlinker warmly, in relief, in reassurance, in gratitude. It was obvious that Shlinker could never hope to equal his own appearance or ability; he had nothing to doubt; he would always beat Shlinker and all the Shlinkers of the world; he would let no one achieve what he could not achieve. Let them all watch him. He would give them good reason to stare. He felt the hot breaths about him and the expectation, like a tonic. It was wonderful, thought Peter Keating, to be alive.

                                Keating had worked hard *because* he had wanted to beat Shlinker. *Other people* served as his motor.

                                […]

                                > Then he thought suddenly of Howard Roark. He was surprised to find that the flash of that name in his memory gave him a sharp little twinge of pleasure, before he could know why. Then he remembered: Howard Roark had been expelled this morning. He reproached himself silently; he made a determined effort to feel sorry. But the secret glow came back, whenever he thought of that expulsion. The event proved conclusively that he had been a fool to imagine Roark a dangerous rival; at one time, he had worried about Roark more than about Shlinker, even though Roark was two years younger and one class below him. If he had ever entertained any doubts on their respective gifts, hadn't this day settled it all?


                                Because Keating values comparing to and beating others, he felt a twinge of *pleasure* at Roark’s expulsion.

                                […]

                                > He glanced about him, cautiously at first, then with curiosity, then with pleasure, then with contempt. When he reached this last, Peter Keating became himself again and felt love for mankind. He noticed sallow cheeks, a funny nose, a wart on a receding chin, a stomach squashed against the edge of a table. He loved these sights. What these could do, he could do better. He smiled. Peter Keating needed his fellow men.
                              • PAS
                                ... I don’t know if what I’m doing is what Rand, Roark, Galt, Dagny, Francisco, or Rearden would do in my situation. I neither agree nor disagree with your
                                Message 15 of 17 , Dec 4 6:10 PM
                                  On Dec 3, 2017, at 8:17 PM, 'anonymous FI' anonymousfallibleideas@... [fallible-ideas] <fallible-ideas@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

                                  > On Dec 3, 2017, at 18:51 PM, PAS <pas@...> wrote:


                                  >> I am defensive at least about the recommendation that I seriously
                                  >> study FI now. I don’t think that’s correct for my situation. Yet I
                                  >> also don’t think it is correct to give up and conclude that I will
                                  >> never seriously study FI.
                                  >>
                                  >> I do feel judged about this, but I don’t think that bothers me. I
                                  >> judge and expect to be judged.
                                  >
                                  > You aren't doing what Rand, Roark, Galt, Dagny, Francisco or Rearden
                                  > would do. Do you agree with that?
                                  >
                                  > If you thought you'd ever be much like them, you wouldn't throw away
                                  > years of your life delaying it.

                                  I don’t know if what I’m doing is what Rand, Roark, Galt, Dagny, Francisco, or Rearden would do in my situation. I neither agree nor disagree with your assertion.

                                  One reason is I don’t know a lot about them from the single, low-standard reading of Rand’s fiction I have done.

                                  Another reason is I am still getting a handle on some of the relevant details of my context.

                                  Another reason is I’m bad at mapping what fictional or real characters would do onto my context.

                                  I know some explanation for why I’m bad at mapping character actions onto my context. As a child I took on the idea that “What Would X Do?” in my own contexts should only matter when X=Jesus. Taking any heroes other than Jesus seriously was actively discouraged. And then as a young teenager I rejected the idea of Jesus as a hero, and didn’t think I needed any replacement.

                                  I didn’t know why I should care about “What Would X Do?” in any of my situations until Jordan Peterson’s videos explained it some. So I have spent most of my life not paying attention to that question, including when I was reading Rand. When I encountered it in culture I avoided it, thinking it was a tool of manipulation or just a dumb idea because I’m not a fictional character, they’re not me, so asking what they would do in my situation is meaningless.

                                  So my guess is that culturally normal 21st century USA is significantly better at this than my own knowledge of how to apply characters to situations.

                                  For example, I don’t know how much of a character’s knowledge and ideas to consider them having in my context. If their knowledge and ideas were 100% identical to mine, I think they’d always do the exact same thing I do so there’s no value in considering them. If their knowledge and ideas were 100% their own, then their context would not be meaningfully the same as mine (since what I know, and don’t, is a big important part of my context). Different people in different situations do different things.

                                  Somewhere between those two extremes must lie the union of the character's knowledge & ideas and mine in which considering what they would do is useful to my own decisions. But I don’t have clues as to where that range lies, how different it is depending on the character and situation I’m considering, how to criticize guesses about it, how much precision is necessary and how to get the necessary precision, etc.

                                  PAS
                                • PAS
                                  ... Maybe I understand what you mean by this or maybe not. So I’ll outline my thoughts. I understand there are significant risks in lives where you don’t
                                  Message 16 of 17 , Dec 5 6:04 PM
                                    On Dec 2, 2017, at 5:43 PM, Elliot Temple <curi@...> wrote:

                                    > Not doing lots of FI (aka relying on static memes) is a high-risk/low-reward strategy.

                                    Maybe I understand what you mean by this or maybe not. So I’ll outline my thoughts.

                                    I understand there are significant risks in lives where you don’t do lots of FI. The one I’d start with is death. Death is a super-duper high risk apart from the unpredictable luck of *someone else* solving the death problem for me. So ya death is pretty high risk and applies to both kinds of lives.

                                    The runner up to death is disability and general ill health, which often precede death - sometimes by a little or sometimes by a lot. I consider that a high risk. And it applies to not doing lots of FI.

                                    And then there’s risks like financial ruin, divorce or alienation from family members I live with. I don’t think those are particularly high risks for me, but they’re not close to zero either even if I don’t do lots of FI.

                                    So OK I guess I get in a way that even not doing lots of FI comes with high risk. Life comes with high risk in some ways.

                                    But also I don’t see doing lots of FI substantially reducing any of those risks *for me*. You didn’t claim it would - I’m not sure if you think it would or not.

                                    And I do see lots of FI increasing some of those risks, particularly divorce or alienation, but also financial.

                                    Convention has ways of dealing with the risks I’ve been talking about. Are the ways perfect? No. But they’re well known and implementable by me.

                                    Whereas doing lots of FI would rely more on developing new solutions. Will I succeed? That seems higher risk than just implementing the well known (if problematic) conventional solutions. And it’s really the kind of thing I had in mind in calling seriously pursuing FI high risk.

                                    On the reward side, I guess that depends on what you want.

                                    One objective way to measure rewards is money. It seems reasonable to me that pursuing philosophy instead of other options you reasonably could have meant you have so far earned millions of dollars less than you otherwise would have. If that’s wrong you can correct me, but I think you agree.

                                    There’s other ways than money to measure rewards of course. Even in those ways I don’t consider my current life low reward. I can imagine it better, but at least I’d characterize it as good reward.

                                    I’m sure you consider not doing lots of FI low-reward in terms of things that you value. But I’m not convinced it’s low-reward in terms of things I value.

                                    PAS
                                  • Elliot Temple
                                    ... Those were not the risks I had in mind. FI has some relevance to those things, but the main risk of not doing FI is *having bad ideas and then wasting your
                                    Message 17 of 17 , Dec 6 2:50 PM
                                      On Dec 5, 2017, at 6:04 PM, PAS <pas@...> wrote:

                                      > On Dec 2, 2017, at 5:43 PM, Elliot Temple <curi@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      >> Not doing lots of FI (aka relying on static memes) is a high-risk/low-reward strategy.
                                      >
                                      > Maybe I understand what you mean by this or maybe not. So I’ll outline my thoughts.
                                      >
                                      > I understand there are significant risks in lives where you don’t do lots of FI. The one I’d start with is death. Death is a super-duper high risk apart from the unpredictable luck of *someone else* solving the death problem for me. So ya death is pretty high risk and applies to both kinds of lives.
                                      >
                                      > The runner up to death is disability and general ill health, which often precede death - sometimes by a little or sometimes by a lot. I consider that a high risk. And it applies to not doing lots of FI.
                                      >
                                      > And then there’s risks like financial ruin, divorce or alienation from family members I live with. I don’t think those are particularly high risks for me, but they’re not close to zero either even if I don’t do lots of FI.
                                      >
                                      > So OK I guess I get in a way that even not doing lots of FI comes with high risk. Life comes with high risk in some ways.
                                      >
                                      > But also I don’t see doing lots of FI substantially reducing any of those risks *for me*. You didn’t claim it would - I’m not sure if you think it would or not.

                                      Those were not the risks I had in mind. FI has some relevance to those things, but the main risk of not doing FI is *having bad ideas and then wasting your life pursuing bad ideas*. If you *have the wrong values*, you're fucked, because you'll pursue bad values and therefore have a shitty life. Another huge risk with non-FI is *being bad at achieving your values*, even if they don't suck. Tons of people are highly ineffective due to using the wrong thinking methods.

                                      > And I do see lots of FI increasing some of those risks, particularly divorce or alienation, but also financial.

                                      FI substantially lowers divorce risk if FI precedes marriage. You're only thinking about the case where you're already married and one spouse likes FI and the other doesn't. (FI also lowers divorce risk if you both love and learn it.)


                                      > Convention has ways of dealing with the risks I’ve been talking about. Are the ways perfect? No. But they’re well known and implementable by me.
                                      >
                                      > Whereas doing lots of FI would rely more on developing new solutions. Will I succeed? That seems higher risk than just implementing the well known (if problematic) conventional solutions. And it’s really the kind of thing I had in mind in calling seriously pursuing FI high risk.
                                      >
                                      > On the reward side, I guess that depends on what you want.
                                      >
                                      > One objective way to measure rewards is money.

                                      objective, sure, but highly incomplete...

                                      > It seems reasonable to me that pursuing philosophy instead of other options you reasonably could have meant you have so far earned millions of dollars less than you otherwise would have. If that’s wrong you can correct me, but I think you agree.

                                      yeah that's correct cuz i could be a highly paid programmer instead. but i'm happier this way and, you know, money past middle class doesn't really buy happiness.


                                      >
                                      > There’s other ways than money to measure rewards of course. Even in those ways I don’t consider my current life low reward. I can imagine it better, but at least I’d characterize it as good reward.
                                      >
                                      > I’m sure you consider not doing lots of FI low-reward in terms of things that you value. But I’m not convinced it’s low-reward in terms of things I value.

                                      your values are wrong, so you're not even pursuing the right rewards, so you're fucked.

                                      money is 1) a means to an end 2) a consequence (look how e.g. Roark gets money. first the important stuff happens like he gets good at his job and finds some clients, money then follows.)

                                      you seem kinda blind to the rewards of being able to *reason effectively* and make good decisions in your life and, generally, use ideas to solve your problems (including improving your values). this is fulfilling, fun, awesome, disaster-avoiding, etc, etc. everything good comes from your mind, which is what FI enables and convention hinders.

                                      Elliot Temple
                                      www.fallibleideas.com
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