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Barry Boehm talking about Agile Software Development

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  • Jonas Karlsson
    Hi, I recently learned that Barry Boehm is coming to our organization (a research group in a large corporation) to talk about Agile Software Development .
    Message 1 of 23 , Nov 20, 2004
      Hi,
      I recently learned that Barry Boehm is coming to our organization (a
      research group in a large corporation) to talk about "Agile Software
      Development". Does anybody here have an idea about what we can
      expect from him? Having read about Boehm on the web, my impression is
      that his attitude is that agile development and XP are better than
      undisciplined cowboy coding, and may be ok in some environments, but
      for the most part you really want a more plan driven approach.
      Given that, I'm sort of expecting the talk to hurt our attempts to
      promote agile development (and XP) more than help.
      Am I misreading Boehm's writings and worrying needlessly?

      _jonas
    • aacockburn
      ... Back in May 2001, while the rest of us were defining and comprehending the word Agile, Barry published in CrossTalk a really neat article updating and
      Message 2 of 23 , Nov 21, 2004
        --- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com, Jonas Karlsson
        <theJonas@g...> wrote:
        >
        > Hi,
        > I recently learned that Barry Boehm is coming to our organization

        Back in May 2001, while the rest of us were defining and
        comprehending the word Agile, Barry published in CrossTalk a really
        neat article updating and clarifying his Spiral model. It's sharp
        enough that I still haven't made it more than halfway through his
        short 6-list of essentials.

        In the paper, he introduces the idea of valid Variations and
        Hazardous Look-Alikes.

        I have the feeling that the world has passed by the term Spiral, but
        his updated version is still very good, and he'd be impressed if you
        asked a question about this article and how it relates to his current
        views of agile x plan-driven.

        here are a few salient snippets (note in passing he defines risk).
        see:
        http://www.stsc.hill.af.mil/crosstalk/2001/05/boehm.html

        <<The Spiral Model as a Tool for Evolutionary Acquisition
        Dr. Barry Boehm, University of Southern California, Center for
        Software Engineering
        Wilfred J. Hansen, Software Engineering Institute
        ƒ{
        Department of Defense (DoD) has recently rewritten the defense
        acquisition regulations to incorporate "evolutionary acquisition," an
        acquisition strategy designed to mesh well with spiral development.
        In particular, DoD Instruction 5000.2 subdivides acquisition [DoD
        00]:
        ƒ{ "There are two ... approaches, evolutionary and single step to full
        capability. An evolu-tion-ary approach is preferred. ¡K [In this]
        approach, the ultimate capability de-liv-ered to the user is divided
        into two or more blocks, with increasing increments of capability."
        (p. 20)
        ƒ{ Many aspects of spiral development are omitted in the above
        definition. The remainder of this paper expands the definition by
        describing six essential aspects that every proper spiral process
        must exhibit.

        Spiral Essential 1: Concurrent Determination of Key Artifacts
        (Operational Concept, Requirements, Plans, Design, Code)
        1. Hazardous Spiral Look-Alike: Violation of Waterfall Assumptions

        Spiral Essential 2: Each Cycle Does Objectives, Constraints,
        Alternatives, Risks, Review, Commitment to Proceed
        2. Hazardous Spiral Look-Alike: Excluding Key Stakeholders

        Spiral Essential 3: Level of Effort Driven by Risk Considerations
        3. Hazardous Spiral Look-Alikes: Risk Insensitivity

        Spiral Essential 4: Degree of Detail Driven by Risk Considerations
        4. Hazardous Spiral Look-Alikes: Insistence on Complete Specifications

        Spiral Essential 5: Use Anchor Point Milestones: LCO, LCA, IOC
        A major difficulty of the original spiral model was its lack of
        intermediate milestones to serve as commitment points and progress
        checkpoints. This difficulty has been remedied by the development of
        a set of anchor point milestones:
        „h LCO - Life Cycle Objectives - what should the system accomplish
        „h LCA - Life Cycle Architecture - what is the structure of the system
        „h IOC - Initial Operating Capability - the first released version
        Variants: One appropriate variant of Essential 5 is the number of
        spiral cycles between anchor points.
        5. Hazardous Look-Alike: Evolutionary Development without Life Cycle
        Architecture

        Spiral Essential 6: Emphasis on System and Life Cycle Activities and
        Artifacts
        Variants: The model's use of risk considerations to drive solutions
        makes it possible to tailor each spiral cycle to whatever mix of
        software and hardware, choice of capabilities, or degree of
        productization is appropriate.
        6. Hazardous Spiral Look-Alikes: Logic-Only OO Designs
        Models excluded by Essential 6 include most published object-oriented
        analysis and design (OOA&D) methods, which are usually presented as
        abstract logical exercises independent of system performance or
        economic concerns. For example, in a recent survey of 16 OOA&D
        books, only six listed the word ¡§performance¡¨ in their index, and
        only two listed ¡§cost.¡¨
        "
      • Jeff Grigg
        ... Dr. Barry Boehm has done the software development community a world of service, with his highly relevant and accurate observation, measurement and
        Message 3 of 23 , Nov 22, 2004
          --- "aacockburn" <acockburn@a...> wrote:
          > Back in May 2001, while the rest of us were defining and
          > comprehending the word Agile, Barry published in CrossTalk a really
          > neat article updating and clarifying his Spiral model. It's sharp
          > enough that I still haven't made it more than halfway through his
          > short 6-list of essentials.
          > [...]
          > http://www.stsc.hill.af.mil/crosstalk/2001/05/boehm.html

          Dr. Barry Boehm has done the software development community a world
          of service, with his highly relevant and accurate observation,
          measurement and objective feedback. But I still think he's missed
          some important issues.


          There are critically important differences between incremental and
          iterative solutions. But proponents of incremental development often
          cloud the issue by claiming to be iterative.

          Boehm's spiral model is incremental, not iterative.

          Sure there's a lot to be gained with incremental development and
          delivery of subsystems: It demonstrates progress and reduces risk.
          But true iterative development and delivery enable you to build
          something simple, and enhance it over time to meet more ambitious
          requirements -- without having to rewrite it.


          Sure, a risk-based approach is good. But a value-based approach can
          be much better. Is it healthier to be driven by fear or motivated by
          opportunity?
        • banshee858
          ... I gave an XP talk to the Los Angeles SPIN organization and to my surprise Barry Boehm was in attendance. He was curious to hear my perspectives on XP (to
          Message 4 of 23 , Nov 22, 2004
            >
            > Am I misreading Boehm's writings and worrying needlessly?
            >
            I gave an XP talk to the Los Angeles SPIN organization and to my
            surprise Barry Boehm was in attendance. He was curious to hear my
            perspectives on XP (to which I was honored) and I felt he was
            supportive of the ideas I was explaining. I would consider myself to
            be quite lucky to hear his ideas on Agile.

            Carlton
          • Kay Pentecost
            Hi, Jeff, ... Thank you, Jeff! Of course, now that I see that one clearly... I see where a lot of other things are foggy....
            Message 5 of 23 , Nov 22, 2004
              Hi, Jeff,

              > -----Original Message-----
              > From: Jeff Grigg [mailto:jeffgrigg@...]
              > Sent: Monday, November 22, 2004 11:29 AM
              > To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
              > Subject: [XP] Re: Barry Boehm talking about Agile Software
              > Development - incremental & fear
              >
              >
              >
              > --- "aacockburn" <acockburn@a...> wrote:
              > > Back in May 2001, while the rest of us were defining and
              > > comprehending the word Agile, Barry published in CrossTalk a really
              > > neat article updating and clarifying his Spiral model. It's sharp
              > > enough that I still haven't made it more than halfway through his
              > > short 6-list of essentials.
              > > [...]
              > > http://www.stsc.hill.af.mil/crosstalk/2001/05/boehm.html
              >
              > Dr. Barry Boehm has done the software development community a world
              > of service, with his highly relevant and accurate observation,
              > measurement and objective feedback. But I still think he's missed
              > some important issues.
              >
              >
              > There are critically important differences between incremental and
              > iterative solutions. But proponents of incremental development often
              > cloud the issue by claiming to be iterative.

              <blinding flash of insight>

              Thank you, Jeff!

              Of course, now that I see that one clearly... I see where a lot of other
              things are foggy....<grin>


              > Sure, a risk-based approach is good. But a value-based approach can
              > be much better. Is it healthier to be driven by fear or motivated by
              > opportunity?

              Sounds like a sig to me.

              >
              Kay
            • acockburn@aol.com
              In a message dated 11/22/2004 8:01:04 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, jeff _grigg@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:grigg@yahoogroups.com) writes:
              Message 6 of 23 , Nov 23, 2004
                In a message dated 11/22/2004 8:01:04 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, jeff
                _grigg@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:grigg@yahoogroups.com) writes:
                <<
                What I read in Boehm's paper is:
                1. Risk is the driving force behind all decisions. Consider nothing
                else.

                I would rather look at it like this:
                1. Creating business value is the primary concern.
                2. Managing risk is a secondary concern.
                >>

                I guess I don't see risk as the hindrance thing or hide behind the wall
                thing your post suggests. Rather, I think of it like this:

                "Let's code it / ship it now!"
                -- "We shouldn't: there's too much risk of ..."
                "OK, then let's code it / ship it now!"
                --- "Still shouldn't; too much risk of ..."
                "OK, then let's code it / ship it now!"
                etc.

                So the business value is connected through the "Let's code it / ship it
                now!" constant pressure, and the risk lists steer when / why not to code it or
                ship it at this instant, and what to do to make it safe to code / ship.

                Alistair





                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • jhrothjr
                ... The thing is, Barry Boehm comes from an environment where the typical product is a space shuttle, or an ICBM, or a new Main Battle Tank. There are no (or
                Message 7 of 23 , Nov 29, 2004
                  --- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com, acockburn@a... wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  > In a message dated 11/22/2004 8:01:04 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, jeff
                  > _grigg@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:grigg@yahoogroups.com) writes:
                  > <<
                  > What I read in Boehm's paper is:
                  > 1. Risk is the driving force behind all decisions. Consider nothing
                  > else.

                  The thing is, Barry Boehm comes from an environment
                  where the typical product is a space shuttle, or an
                  ICBM, or a new Main Battle Tank. There are no (or
                  very few) intermediate products that have any business
                  value whatsoever.

                  In that environment, getting the riskiest stuff
                  out of the way early makes very good sense, since
                  it gives you time to find alternatives if your
                  first ideas don't pan out.

                  Sometimes you can come up with subcomponents that
                  can be reused for other projects (that's something
                  that NASA is doing for lots of the science projects,
                  for example) and sometimes you can come up with
                  subprojects that can be done in an incremental
                  fashion (targeting comes to mind as a possibility)
                  but for most of it, either the functionality
                  is there and working, or the bird doesn't fly.

                  > I would rather look at it like this:
                  > 1. Creating business value is the primary concern.
                  > 2. Managing risk is a secondary concern.

                  If your business value is an all or nothing
                  proposition, then maybe risk becomes the
                  primary concern?

                  John Roth
                • Jonas Karlsson
                  I just wanted to say a quick thanks to all those who responded to my question about Barry Boehm. It turns out he won t give his talk until end of January /
                  Message 8 of 23 , Dec 1, 2004
                    I just wanted to say a quick thanks to all those who responded to my
                    question about Barry Boehm. It turns out he won't give his talk until
                    end of January / early February - I'll send out a report afterwards.

                    I asked if we could get somebody to talk about XP, and the response
                    was "Sure, but we can't pay them (except possibly expenses)". If
                    that offer sounds good enough to entice someone to come visit upstate
                    NY in winter, let me know :-)

                    _jonas
                  • Jim Standley
                    I think it was here I read a discussion about organizations showing symptoms or traits of humans with mental illness. How long can a group pretend one thing
                    Message 9 of 23 , Dec 2, 2004
                      I think it was here I read a discussion about organizations showing
                      symptoms or traits of humans with mental illness. How long can a group
                      pretend one thing while reality is something else? Anybody recall that,
                      have any links?
                    • Jim Standley
                      I think it was here I read a discussion about organizations showing symptoms or traits of humans with mental illness. How long can a group pretend one thing
                      Message 10 of 23 , Dec 2, 2004
                        I think it was here I read a discussion about organizations showing
                        symptoms or traits of humans with mental illness. How long can a group
                        pretend one thing while reality is something else? Anybody recall that,
                        have any links?
                      • Dale Emery
                        Hi Jim, ... I don t recall that here (though maybe I missed it, or forgot). There was a movie earlier this year called /The Corporation/ Heavily biased but
                        Message 11 of 23 , Dec 2, 2004
                          Hi Jim,

                          > I think it was here I read a discussion about organizations
                          > showing symptoms or traits of humans with mental illness. How
                          > long can a group pretend one thing while reality is something
                          > else? Anybody recall that, have any links?

                          I don't recall that here (though maybe I missed it, or forgot).

                          There was a movie earlier this year called /The Corporation/
                          Heavily biased but interesting. The movie went through five or
                          so symptoms of psychosis or neurosis or some other -osis, and
                          "showed" that corporations exhibit all of the symptoms.

                          Dale

                          --
                          Dale Emery, Consultant
                          Collaborative Leadership for Software People
                          Web: http://www.dhemery.com
                          Weblog: http://www.dhemery.com/cwd

                          Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a
                          man's character, give him power. --Abraham Lincoln
                        • Steven Gordon
                          How long did most of western civilization believe the world was flat? ... From: Jim Standley [mailto:jimstandley@adelphia.net] Sent: Thursday, December 02,
                          Message 12 of 23 , Dec 2, 2004
                            How long did most of "western civilization" believe the world was flat?

                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: Jim Standley [mailto:jimstandley@...]
                            Sent: Thursday, December 02, 2004 5:36 PM
                            To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: Re: [XP] Re: Barry Boehm talking about Agile Software
                            Development



                            I think it was here I read a discussion about organizations showing
                            symptoms or traits of humans with mental illness. How long can a group
                            pretend one thing while reality is something else? Anybody recall that,
                            have any links?


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                          • jhrothjr
                            ... Depends on who you mean by western civilization. The medieval collegia taught that the world was round, and even had a reasonably good value for its
                            Message 13 of 23 , Dec 2, 2004
                              --- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com, Steven Gordon
                              <sagordon@a...> wrote:
                              > How long did most of "western civilization" believe the world was flat?

                              Depends on who you mean by "western civilization."
                              The medieval collegia taught that the world was
                              round, and even had a reasonably good value for
                              its size. That was Columbus' problem: everyone knew,
                              correctly as it turns out, that they couldn't
                              outfit a ship to go across the Atlantic and get
                              to China. Columbus' expedition would have perished
                              if they hadn't run into an unknown continent.

                              The fable that people thought it was flat was
                              invented by Washington Irving. The story was just
                              too good to pass up, and the truth that
                              Columbus cooked up a bogus set of figures for the
                              size of the earth in order to get his expedition
                              off was just too depressing.

                              John Roth

                              >
                              > -----Original Message-----
                              > From: Jim Standley [mailto:jimstandley@a...]
                              > Sent: Thursday, December 02, 2004 5:36 PM
                              > To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
                              > Subject: Re: [XP] Re: Barry Boehm talking about Agile Software
                              > Development
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > I think it was here I read a discussion about organizations showing
                              > symptoms or traits of humans with mental illness. How long can a group
                              > pretend one thing while reality is something else? Anybody recall that,
                              > have any links?
                              >
                              >
                              > To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@e...
                              >
                              > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                              extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@e...
                              >
                              > ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.com
                              > Yahoo! Groups Links
                            • jhrothjr
                              ... I don t think it was here, but group dynamics is rather strange: groups can believe just about anything as long as it protects the integrity of the group.
                              Message 14 of 23 , Dec 2, 2004
                                --- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com, Jim Standley
                                <jimstandley@a...> wrote:
                                > I think it was here I read a discussion about organizations showing
                                > symptoms or traits of humans with mental illness. How long can a group
                                > pretend one thing while reality is something else? Anybody recall that,
                                > have any links?

                                I don't think it was here, but group dynamics
                                is rather strange: groups can believe just
                                about anything as long as it protects the
                                integrity of the group.

                                Part of that is that we don't live in reality:
                                we live in a constructed reality that hopefully
                                bears some relationship to actual reality, but
                                which doesn't have to as long as it's coherent
                                and helps our survival.

                                John Roth
                              • Steven Gordon
                                Ok, substitute the belief that the earth was the center of the universe, or any number of religion-based beliefs like the earth is only several thousand years
                                Message 15 of 23 , Dec 2, 2004
                                  Ok, substitute the belief that the earth was the center of the universe,
                                  or any number of religion-based beliefs like the earth is only several
                                  thousand years old.

                                  In any case, there are surely examples of cases where groups consisting
                                  of thousands or even millions of people have resisted scientific evidence
                                  against dogma for hundreds if not thousands of years.

                                  -----Original Message-----
                                  From: jhrothjr [mailto:yahoogroups@...]
                                  Sent: Thursday, December 02, 2004 6:21 PM
                                  To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
                                  Subject: [XP] Re: Barry Boehm talking about Agile Software Development




                                  --- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com, Steven Gordon
                                  <sagordon@a...> wrote:
                                  > How long did most of "western civilization" believe the world was flat?

                                  Depends on who you mean by "western civilization."
                                  The medieval collegia taught that the world was
                                  round, and even had a reasonably good value for
                                  its size. That was Columbus' problem: everyone knew,
                                  correctly as it turns out, that they couldn't
                                  outfit a ship to go across the Atlantic and get
                                  to China. Columbus' expedition would have perished
                                  if they hadn't run into an unknown continent.

                                  The fable that people thought it was flat was
                                  invented by Washington Irving. The story was just
                                  too good to pass up, and the truth that
                                  Columbus cooked up a bogus set of figures for the
                                  size of the earth in order to get his expedition
                                  off was just too depressing.

                                  John Roth

                                  >
                                  > -----Original Message-----
                                  > From: Jim Standley [mailto:jimstandley@a...]
                                  > Sent: Thursday, December 02, 2004 5:36 PM
                                  > To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
                                  > Subject: Re: [XP] Re: Barry Boehm talking about Agile Software
                                  > Development
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > I think it was here I read a discussion about organizations showing
                                  > symptoms or traits of humans with mental illness. How long can a group
                                  > pretend one thing while reality is something else? Anybody recall that,
                                  > have any links?
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@e...
                                  >
                                  > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                                  extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@e...
                                  >
                                  > ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.com
                                  > Yahoo! Groups Links





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                                • Jeff Grigg
                                  ... Yes, a very interesting movie. And yes, highly biased. http://movies.yahoo.com/shop?d=hv&cf=info&id=1808565671 Psychopath See end of page:
                                  Message 16 of 23 , Dec 2, 2004
                                    > --- Jim,
                                    >> [...] organizations showing symptoms or traits of
                                    >> humans with mental illness. How long can a group
                                    >> pretend one thing while reality is something else?

                                    --- Dale Emery <dale@d...> wrote:
                                    > I don't recall that here (though maybe I missed it, or forgot).
                                    >
                                    > There was a movie earlier this year called /The Corporation/
                                    > Heavily biased but interesting. The movie went through five or
                                    > so symptoms of psychosis or neurosis or some other -osis, and
                                    > "showed" that corporations exhibit all of the symptoms.

                                    Yes, a very interesting movie. And yes, highly biased.
                                    http://movies.yahoo.com/shop?d=hv&cf=info&id=1808565671

                                    "Psychopath" See end of page:
                                    http://www.thecorporation.com/about/
                                  • Jeff Grigg
                                    They have internally consistent belief systems. I should know, I have a close in-law listed on this page:
                                    Message 17 of 23 , Dec 2, 2004
                                      They have internally consistent belief systems. I should know, I
                                      have a close in-law listed on this page:

                                      http://wiki.cotch.net/index.php/Creation_Research_Society

                                      And he's not the only one, among my close relatives. ;->

                                      (No, I don't think I inherited it. *I* am a skeptic. ;-)


                                      Plus, I'm sure we have some Christians on this list. And the
                                      church, particularly the Catholic Church, has a history of resisting
                                      scientific knowledge -- fiercely at times.


                                      --- Steven Gordon <sagordon@a...> wrote:
                                      > Ok, substitute the belief that the earth was the center
                                      > of the universe, or any number of religion-based beliefs
                                      > like the earth is only several thousand years old.
                                      >
                                      > In any case, there are surely examples of cases where
                                      > groups consisting of thousands or even millions of
                                      > people have resisted scientific evidence against
                                      > dogma for hundreds if not thousands of years.
                                    • Steven Gordon
                                      And what could be a more internally consistent approach to software development than a waterfall process driven by command and control? The problem, of
                                      Message 18 of 23 , Dec 2, 2004
                                        And what could be a more internally consistent approach to software development
                                        than a waterfall process driven by command and control? The problem, of
                                        course, is that the internal consistency is based on the false premise that the
                                        requirements are stable and can be known at the beginning of the project.

                                        -----Original Message-----
                                        From: Jeff Grigg [mailto:jeffgrigg@...]
                                        Sent: Thu 12/2/2004 9:36 PM
                                        To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
                                        Cc:
                                        Subject: [XP] Re: talking about Agile - and non-science belief systems





                                        They have internally consistent belief systems. I should know, I
                                        have a close in-law listed on this page:

                                        http://wiki.cotch.net/index.php/Creation_Research_Society

                                        And he's not the only one, among my close relatives. ;->

                                        (No, I don't think I inherited it. *I* am a skeptic. ;-)


                                        Plus, I'm sure we have some Christians on this list. And the
                                        church, particularly the Catholic Church, has a history of resisting
                                        scientific knowledge -- fiercely at times.


                                        --- Steven Gordon <sagordon@a...> wrote:
                                        > Ok, substitute the belief that the earth was the center
                                        > of the universe, or any number of religion-based beliefs
                                        > like the earth is only several thousand years old.
                                        >
                                        > In any case, there are surely examples of cases where
                                        > groups consisting of thousands or even millions of
                                        > people have resisted scientific evidence against
                                        > dogma for hundreds if not thousands of years.





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                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      • Vizer Tibor
                                        Having a mental disorder is an other kind of problem than having scientific evidence and ignoring it. See: doctors wanna kill me, yeah, they are out to get
                                        Message 19 of 23 , Dec 3, 2004
                                          Having a mental disorder is an other kind of problem than
                                          having scientific evidence and ignoring it.

                                          See:
                                          "doctors wanna kill me, yeah, they are out to get me"
                                          vs.
                                          "my religion is against heart transplantation"

                                          An organisation with mental illness is like a Borg mind with an error inside:
                                          maybe everyone knows there is some problem with the 'mind', but all of them is doing his little work correctly.
                                          Without huge changes you could hardly heal such a big system.
                                          (firing all the management people, outsourcing, whatever, I don't know)

                                          Tibor

                                          > -----Original Message-----
                                          > From: Steven Gordon [mailto:sagordon@...]
                                          > Ok, substitute the belief that the earth was the center of
                                          > the universe,
                                          > or any number of religion-based beliefs like the earth is only several
                                          > thousand years old.
                                          >
                                          > In any case, there are surely examples of cases where groups
                                          > consisting
                                          > of thousands or even millions of people have resisted
                                          > scientific evidence
                                          > against dogma for hundreds if not thousands of years.
                                          >
                                        • Jim Standley
                                          Thanks! That s exactly what I was thinking of. I bet I heard a long interview with the authors on NPR.
                                          Message 20 of 23 , Dec 3, 2004
                                            Thanks! That's exactly what I was thinking of. I bet I heard a long
                                            interview with the authors on NPR.

                                            Dale Emery wrote:
                                            > Hi Jim,
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >>I think it was here I read a discussion about organizations
                                            >>showing symptoms or traits of humans with mental illness. How
                                            >>long can a group pretend one thing while reality is something
                                            >>else? Anybody recall that, have any links?
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > I don't recall that here (though maybe I missed it, or forgot).
                                            >
                                            > There was a movie earlier this year called /The Corporation/
                                            > Heavily biased but interesting. The movie went through five or
                                            > so symptoms of psychosis or neurosis or some other -osis, and
                                            > "showed" that corporations exhibit all of the symptoms.
                                            >
                                            > Dale
                                            >
                                          • Robert Watkins
                                            ... _Internally_ consistent is the right word, to the point where external evidence is either rejected or subverted. ... Actually, not to the extent generally
                                            Message 21 of 23 , Dec 4, 2004
                                              On Fri, 03 Dec 2004 04:36:42 -0000, Jeff Grigg <jeffgrigg@...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > They have internally consistent belief systems. I should know, I
                                              > have a close in-law listed on this page:

                                              _Internally_ consistent is the right word, to the point where external
                                              evidence is either rejected or subverted.

                                              > Plus, I'm sure we have some Christians on this list. And the
                                              > church, particularly the Catholic Church, has a history of resisting
                                              > scientific knowledge -- fiercely at times.

                                              Actually, not to the extent generally described. Take Galileo, for
                                              example: he wasn't really prosecuted for preaching that the Earth
                                              orbited the sun. It was more a result of political in-fighting within
                                              the Church.

                                              The problem generally is that in any organisation, there are
                                              open-minded and closed-minded individuals. If you get enough of a
                                              percentage of close-minded people, the open-minded tend to leave,
                                              excerbating the problem.

                                              --
                                              "Software is too expensive to build cheaply"
                                              Robert Watkins http://twasink.net/ robertdw@...
                                            • jhrothjr
                                              ... It wasn t even that. My understanding is that Galileo went out of his way to piss off the Pope, by writing a document which had a character that spouted
                                              Message 22 of 23 , Dec 4, 2004
                                                --- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com, Robert Watkins <yahoo@t...>
                                                wrote:
                                                > On Fri, 03 Dec 2004 04:36:42 -0000, Jeff Grigg <jeffgrigg@c...> wrote:
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > > They have internally consistent belief systems. I should know, I
                                                > > have a close in-law listed on this page:
                                                >
                                                > _Internally_ consistent is the right word, to the point where external
                                                > evidence is either rejected or subverted.
                                                >
                                                > > Plus, I'm sure we have some Christians on this list. And the
                                                > > church, particularly the Catholic Church, has a history of resisting
                                                > > scientific knowledge -- fiercely at times.
                                                >
                                                > Actually, not to the extent generally described. Take Galileo, for
                                                > example: he wasn't really prosecuted for preaching that the Earth
                                                > orbited the sun. It was more a result of political in-fighting within
                                                > the Church.

                                                It wasn't even that. My understanding is that Galileo
                                                went out of his way to piss off the Pope, by writing
                                                a document which had a character that spouted all of
                                                the Pope's opinions on the subject, and then shredded
                                                them. Who he was talking about was very thinly disguised.

                                                The issue came down to a lot of the Church's theology
                                                being grounded in the neo-Platonist model, and they
                                                had a huge amount of trouble with Copernicus. However,
                                                by the time the controversy came up, _everyone_ was
                                                using Copernicus' calculational methods, and a good
                                                majority of astronomers were convinced he was right.

                                                >
                                                > The problem generally is that in any organisation, there are
                                                > open-minded and closed-minded individuals. If you get enough of a
                                                > percentage of close-minded people, the open-minded tend to leave,
                                                > excerbating the problem.

                                                Yep. That's one aspect of the problem that people
                                                usually don't see. Organizations attract people
                                                that have similar mindsets, and many of them are
                                                not going to change.

                                                John Roth
                                                >
                                                > --
                                                > "Software is too expensive to build cheaply"
                                                > Robert Watkins http://twasink.net/ robertdw@t...
                                              • BenAveling
                                                ... Actually, that can be /useful/ behaviour in that it can build group solidarity by clearly dividing people into insiders who accept some minor violation of
                                                Message 23 of 23 , Sep 12 5:50 AM
                                                  Jim Standley wrote:
                                                  > How long can a group
                                                  > pretend one thing while reality is something else?

                                                  Actually, that can be /useful/ behaviour in that it can build group
                                                  solidarity by clearly dividing people into insiders who accept some
                                                  minor violation of reality and outsiders who don't.

                                                  Regards, Ben
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