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Re: [XP] write customer tests first

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  • maps@gmx.de
    ... To me the unit tests are a kind of design tool when written first. I ´m not sure if the acceptance tests also shape my design as the unit tests do. They
    Message 1 of 35 , Nov 1 7:06 AM
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      Ron Jeffries schrieb:

      >I get some real value from knowing before I start what a few of them will
      >be: it helps me shape my design and programming.
      To me the unit tests are a kind of design tool when written first. I ´m
      not sure if the acceptance tests also shape my design as the unit tests
      do. They rather seem to give me a rough direction. This might be due to
      the tools I use: Acceptance tests mostly are GUI tests in my case.

      >HOWEVER: when I do TDD, the test guides the code, and the code guides the
      >next test. Acceptance tests are kind of given from the outside. I could
      >/select/ the next test to do from the list, but I can't /create/ the next
      >test in the same way that I do with unit tests. That makes me suspect that
      >the inherent rhythm of customer-provided acceptance tests is always going
      >to be different from that of TDD with unit tests.
      This is a very interesting point. I could imagine that only the cycles
      of the rhythm are longer: When the customer gets his program after an
      iteration this will inspire him to write new acceptance tests (user

    • Amir Kolsky
      Yup Amir Kolsky XP& Software
      Message 35 of 35 , Nov 6 10:30 PM
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        Amir Kolsky
        XP& Software

        >-----Original Message-----
        >From: Kent Beck [mailto:kentb@...]
        >Sent: Sunday, November 07, 2004 6:16 AM
        >To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
        >Subject: RE: [XP] write customer tests first
        >I misunderstood you. My mistake. What I hear you saying now is
        >that if people are unhappy on an XP team there are serious
        >consequences. Is that accurate?
        >Kent Beck
        >Three Rivers Institute
        >> -----Original Message-----
        >> From: Amir Kolsky [mailto:kolsky@...]
        >> Sent: Friday, November 05, 2004 11:32 AM
        >> To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
        >> Subject: RE: [XP] write customer tests first
        >> I said: "You cannot have members of your community unahppy in XP, at
        >> least not for long." It is a matter of fact that some people
        >might be
        >> unhappy as a result of someone's actions, be it you or someone else.
        >> For example, if some new guy gets hired and he happened to sit by a
        >> CRT screen when everyone else has LCD, he'll probably be
        >unhappy. But
        >> that's acceptable. The tradeoffs between reality and happiness are
        >> always there... However, you cannot have any single member of your
        >> community unhappy for a long time as this will cause your team to be
        >> inaffective, or that person to leave.
        >> One of the worse things you can do is alienate your customer.
        >> Especially if that customer is one of many (which is
        >something that we
        >> have ran across recently). If a customer is consistently ignored he
        >> will be unhappy. You have to indulge that customer in the planning
        >> game (as the lead customer, that is) or he might turn
        >against you. In
        >> our case a customer was trying to do things the XP way (from his
        >> perspective) which went against the wish of another major player. He
        >> lost every time. Eventually he started to voice concerns that the
        >> whole project is going to fail. We had a tough time (As
        >> coaches) to make people understand that even though what he
        >asked for
        >> might not be the *exact* right thing to do next, it was the
        >> politically correct thing to do, and since this calmed
        >things down in
        >> the group, it had business value.
        >To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
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