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Re: [XP] write customer tests first

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  • Phlip
    ... There are many people out there who went from code-and-fix to big analysis up front . Naturally researching and thinking before doing is better than
    Message 1 of 35 , Nov 1, 2004
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      maps@... wrote:

      > I'd be interested in the advantages (and maybe
      > disadvantages) you see in codinging the acceptance
      > tests first.

      There are many people out there who went from
      code-and-fix to "big analysis up front". Naturally
      researching and thinking before doing is better than
      code-and-fix...

      But when we try to describe XP to them, they get stuck
      on the parts that sound like "skip analysis and write
      a test". We didn't say to skip analysis.

      If you can't write a test, research why you can't.
      Have we written any tests like this before? Can we
      find a pair who knows how to do it? Maybe the customer
      just turned a corner, and the team doesn't realize
      this. Maybe we need to work, together, for a while, on
      planning how to write infrastructure and fixtures for
      this next kind of test.

      That's analysis.

      > Coding unit tests first (TDD) is very
      > good documented in the different XP-books but I can
      > find nearly nothing about test first and acceptance
      > tests.

      IndustrialXP specifies that all userstories shall have
      storytests. The more generic XP material just says
      each userstory has a customer test, not necessarily
      written first. IndustrialXP recommends writing it
      first, because of the analytic effect, and because of
      the rhythm it imparts to a team's progress.


      =====
      Phlip
      http://industrialxp.org/community/bin/view/Main/TestFirstUserInterfaces



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    • Amir Kolsky
      Yup Amir Kolsky XP& Software
      Message 35 of 35 , Nov 6, 2004
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        Yup

        Amir Kolsky
        XP& Software


        >-----Original Message-----
        >From: Kent Beck [mailto:kentb@...]
        >Sent: Sunday, November 07, 2004 6:16 AM
        >To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
        >Subject: RE: [XP] write customer tests first
        >
        >
        >I misunderstood you. My mistake. What I hear you saying now is
        >that if people are unhappy on an XP team there are serious
        >consequences. Is that accurate?
        >
        >Kent Beck
        >Three Rivers Institute
        >
        >> -----Original Message-----
        >> From: Amir Kolsky [mailto:kolsky@...]
        >> Sent: Friday, November 05, 2004 11:32 AM
        >> To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
        >> Subject: RE: [XP] write customer tests first
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >> I said: "You cannot have members of your community unahppy in XP, at
        >> least not for long." It is a matter of fact that some people
        >might be
        >> unhappy as a result of someone's actions, be it you or someone else.
        >> For example, if some new guy gets hired and he happened to sit by a
        >> CRT screen when everyone else has LCD, he'll probably be
        >unhappy. But
        >> that's acceptable. The tradeoffs between reality and happiness are
        >> always there... However, you cannot have any single member of your
        >> community unhappy for a long time as this will cause your team to be
        >> inaffective, or that person to leave.
        >>
        >> One of the worse things you can do is alienate your customer.
        >> Especially if that customer is one of many (which is
        >something that we
        >> have ran across recently). If a customer is consistently ignored he
        >> will be unhappy. You have to indulge that customer in the planning
        >> game (as the lead customer, that is) or he might turn
        >against you. In
        >> our case a customer was trying to do things the XP way (from his
        >> perspective) which went against the wish of another major player. He
        >> lost every time. Eventually he started to voice concerns that the
        >> whole project is going to fail. We had a tough time (As
        >> coaches) to make people understand that even though what he
        >asked for
        >> might not be the *exact* right thing to do next, it was the
        >> politically correct thing to do, and since this calmed
        >things down in
        >> the group, it had business value.
        >
        >
        >
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