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Re: [XP] write customer tests first

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  • Phlip
    ... There are many people out there who went from code-and-fix to big analysis up front . Naturally researching and thinking before doing is better than
    Message 1 of 35 , Nov 1, 2004
      maps@... wrote:

      > I'd be interested in the advantages (and maybe
      > disadvantages) you see in codinging the acceptance
      > tests first.

      There are many people out there who went from
      code-and-fix to "big analysis up front". Naturally
      researching and thinking before doing is better than

      But when we try to describe XP to them, they get stuck
      on the parts that sound like "skip analysis and write
      a test". We didn't say to skip analysis.

      If you can't write a test, research why you can't.
      Have we written any tests like this before? Can we
      find a pair who knows how to do it? Maybe the customer
      just turned a corner, and the team doesn't realize
      this. Maybe we need to work, together, for a while, on
      planning how to write infrastructure and fixtures for
      this next kind of test.

      That's analysis.

      > Coding unit tests first (TDD) is very
      > good documented in the different XP-books but I can
      > find nearly nothing about test first and acceptance
      > tests.

      IndustrialXP specifies that all userstories shall have
      storytests. The more generic XP material just says
      each userstory has a customer test, not necessarily
      written first. IndustrialXP recommends writing it
      first, because of the analytic effect, and because of
      the rhythm it imparts to a team's progress.


      Do you Yahoo!?
      Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish.
    • Amir Kolsky
      Yup Amir Kolsky XP& Software
      Message 35 of 35 , Nov 6, 2004

        Amir Kolsky
        XP& Software

        >-----Original Message-----
        >From: Kent Beck [mailto:kentb@...]
        >Sent: Sunday, November 07, 2004 6:16 AM
        >To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
        >Subject: RE: [XP] write customer tests first
        >I misunderstood you. My mistake. What I hear you saying now is
        >that if people are unhappy on an XP team there are serious
        >consequences. Is that accurate?
        >Kent Beck
        >Three Rivers Institute
        >> -----Original Message-----
        >> From: Amir Kolsky [mailto:kolsky@...]
        >> Sent: Friday, November 05, 2004 11:32 AM
        >> To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
        >> Subject: RE: [XP] write customer tests first
        >> I said: "You cannot have members of your community unahppy in XP, at
        >> least not for long." It is a matter of fact that some people
        >might be
        >> unhappy as a result of someone's actions, be it you or someone else.
        >> For example, if some new guy gets hired and he happened to sit by a
        >> CRT screen when everyone else has LCD, he'll probably be
        >unhappy. But
        >> that's acceptable. The tradeoffs between reality and happiness are
        >> always there... However, you cannot have any single member of your
        >> community unhappy for a long time as this will cause your team to be
        >> inaffective, or that person to leave.
        >> One of the worse things you can do is alienate your customer.
        >> Especially if that customer is one of many (which is
        >something that we
        >> have ran across recently). If a customer is consistently ignored he
        >> will be unhappy. You have to indulge that customer in the planning
        >> game (as the lead customer, that is) or he might turn
        >against you. In
        >> our case a customer was trying to do things the XP way (from his
        >> perspective) which went against the wish of another major player. He
        >> lost every time. Eventually he started to voice concerns that the
        >> whole project is going to fail. We had a tough time (As
        >> coaches) to make people understand that even though what he
        >asked for
        >> might not be the *exact* right thing to do next, it was the
        >> politically correct thing to do, and since this calmed
        >things down in
        >> the group, it had business value.
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