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RE: [XP] Collective estimation?

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  • Kent Beck
    I have another goal for early estimation, which is to encourage the business-decision-makers to focus on return instead of just value. If the choice is between
    Message 1 of 33 , Sep 9, 2004
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      I have another goal for early estimation, which is to encourage the
      business-decision-makers to focus on return instead of just value. If
      the choice is between the Yugo and the Ferrari, I'll take the Ferrari
      every time. If I have $6000 and I know the price of the two cars, my
      thinking is more realistic.

      I worry sometimes that this will keep people from being creative,
      thinking big thoughts. However, that's just my fear. Some people are
      really good at thinking big, cheap thoughts. We're remodeling a house
      right now and I'm amazed at the changes my wife Cindee can make on a
      tight budget. Some people are good at seeing opportunity, and those
      people will work fine with early estimation.

      Kent Beck
      Three Rivers Institute

      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: Denis Haskin [mailto:Denis@...]
      > Sent: Monday, September 06, 2004 7:23 PM
      > To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
      > Subject: Re: [XP] Collective estimation?
      >
      >
      > Perryn, really good questions. Definitely made me stop and
      > think. (And
      > yes, my first reaction was "the White Book says so!...")
      >
      > Here's some ideas:
      >
      > * to give the Customer some idea of when we might achieve
      > a release
      > * to select user stories for the next iteration
      > * to figure out whether the project needs more (or less) people
      > * to cause the developers to give some thought to the user stories
      > before they actually start implementing them, so they can flag
      > what is unclear/contradictory/etc to the Customer with
      > some lead time
      >
      >
      > I don't know if these are clearly enough articulated or
      > compelling enough...
      >
      > I will certainly agree that estimating software development
      > is often not
      > very reliable or accurate, but have you really been in a
      > business where
      > it was acceptable for the software team to say "we don't know
      > how long
      > this is going to take, and we're not even going to try and guess"?
      >
      > Thanks,
      >
      > dwh
      >
      > p.s. I actually don't think this lead developer is evil incarnate...
      >
      >
      > Perryn Fowler wrote:
      >
      > >In slight contrast to the direction that the discussion has been
      > >taking, Im not sure this lead developer is necessarily evil incarnate
      > >
      > >It sounds as if he considers these estimates a waste of time - (and
      > >even a time boxed waste of time is still a waste of time.)
      > >
      > >So the obvious question is - what are these estimates for?
      > How are you
      > >going to
      > >use them? What will they give you that will make it worth
      > spending the effort?
      > >
      > >If you can clearly articulate the answers to these questions to him
      > >then maybe he will be won over...
      > >
      > >On the other hand I often think that estimates are taken for
      > estimates
      > >sake so if you can't articulate their need... ( and 'cos the
      > White Book
      > >says so doesn't count ;) )
      > >
      > >Perryn
      > >
      > >
      >
      >
      > To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
      >
      > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
      > extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
      >
      > ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.com
      > Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
    • Kent Beck
      I have another goal for early estimation, which is to encourage the business-decision-makers to focus on return instead of just value. If the choice is between
      Message 33 of 33 , Sep 9, 2004
      • 0 Attachment
        I have another goal for early estimation, which is to encourage the
        business-decision-makers to focus on return instead of just value. If
        the choice is between the Yugo and the Ferrari, I'll take the Ferrari
        every time. If I have $6000 and I know the price of the two cars, my
        thinking is more realistic.

        I worry sometimes that this will keep people from being creative,
        thinking big thoughts. However, that's just my fear. Some people are
        really good at thinking big, cheap thoughts. We're remodeling a house
        right now and I'm amazed at the changes my wife Cindee can make on a
        tight budget. Some people are good at seeing opportunity, and those
        people will work fine with early estimation.

        Kent Beck
        Three Rivers Institute

        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: Denis Haskin [mailto:Denis@...]
        > Sent: Monday, September 06, 2004 7:23 PM
        > To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
        > Subject: Re: [XP] Collective estimation?
        >
        >
        > Perryn, really good questions. Definitely made me stop and
        > think. (And
        > yes, my first reaction was "the White Book says so!...")
        >
        > Here's some ideas:
        >
        > * to give the Customer some idea of when we might achieve
        > a release
        > * to select user stories for the next iteration
        > * to figure out whether the project needs more (or less) people
        > * to cause the developers to give some thought to the user stories
        > before they actually start implementing them, so they can flag
        > what is unclear/contradictory/etc to the Customer with
        > some lead time
        >
        >
        > I don't know if these are clearly enough articulated or
        > compelling enough...
        >
        > I will certainly agree that estimating software development
        > is often not
        > very reliable or accurate, but have you really been in a
        > business where
        > it was acceptable for the software team to say "we don't know
        > how long
        > this is going to take, and we're not even going to try and guess"?
        >
        > Thanks,
        >
        > dwh
        >
        > p.s. I actually don't think this lead developer is evil incarnate...
        >
        >
        > Perryn Fowler wrote:
        >
        > >In slight contrast to the direction that the discussion has been
        > >taking, Im not sure this lead developer is necessarily evil incarnate
        > >
        > >It sounds as if he considers these estimates a waste of time - (and
        > >even a time boxed waste of time is still a waste of time.)
        > >
        > >So the obvious question is - what are these estimates for?
        > How are you
        > >going to
        > >use them? What will they give you that will make it worth
        > spending the effort?
        > >
        > >If you can clearly articulate the answers to these questions to him
        > >then maybe he will be won over...
        > >
        > >On the other hand I often think that estimates are taken for
        > estimates
        > >sake so if you can't articulate their need... ( and 'cos the
        > White Book
        > >says so doesn't count ;) )
        > >
        > >Perryn
        > >
        > >
        >
        >
        > To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
        >
        > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
        > extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
        >
        > ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.com
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
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