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Re: [XP] Information, Propaganda; Influence, Manipulation.

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  • Ron Jeffries
    ... It s a metaphor, people, a turn of phrase. I know you re not weak just because you can t hold your own in a reasonable conversation such as Lior and I are
    Message 1 of 13 , Sep 1, 2004
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      On Wednesday, September 1, 2004, at 7:43:52 AM, Lior Fridman wrote:

      > Yes. And yet, we only know what people do, not what they think. Is it
      > perhaps even more insulting to tone down our style for the weak and
      > not-so-fleet of tongue?

      It's a metaphor, people, a turn of phrase. I know you're not weak just
      because you can't hold your own in a reasonable conversation such as Lior
      and I are familiar with.

      Differently strong, that's it.

      Geeze, people are so sensitive.

      Ron Jeffries
      www.XProgramming.com
      Do we learn more through cynicism, or through some other mental posture?
    • Dale Emery
      Hi Ron, ... The insult would be in making certain kinds of assumptions about the other person. Perhaps you could avoid that by asking the other person s
      Message 2 of 13 , Sep 1, 2004
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        Hi Ron,

        > Yes. And yet, we only know what people do, not what they
        > think. Is it perhaps even more insulting to tone down our
        > style for the weak and not-so-fleet of tongue?

        The insult would be in making certain kinds of assumptions about
        the other person. Perhaps you could avoid that by asking the
        other person's preferences for how you interact with them.

        > I do try not to make it personal. I try to edit "you" out of
        > my conversation.

        Interesting. My approach is to make it more personal, such as by
        speaking about myself and my experience in a personal way, or by
        speaking to the person I'm speaking to in a more personal way.

        I'm probably wildly inconsistent in using "you" to refer
        specifically to one person I'm talking to and to refer to a
        general "you."

        I've come to have a bad reaction to the pronoun "one" in
        reference to some general person. It feels too abstract and
        impersonal to me. I drag in all kinds of stereotypical
        associations with academia, including a feeling of being
        pontificated at.

        Dale

        --
        Dale Emery, Consultant
        Collaborative Leadership for Software People
        Web: http://www.dhemery.com
        Weblog: http://www.dhemery.com/cwd

        Whenever two people meet, there are really six people present.
        There is each man as he sees himself, each man as the other
        person sees him, and each man as he really is. --William James
      • Kent Beck
        ... If you are trying to make up their minds for them, you *are* evil. Acting the best way you know how and looking for receptive moments to share that (as
        Message 3 of 13 , Sep 2, 2004
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          > -----Original Message-----
          > From: Lior Fridman [mailto:lior.fridman@...]
          > Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2004 4:44 AM
          > To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
          > Subject: RE: [XP] Information, Propaganda; Influence, Manipulation.
          >
          > As you said there are many method of trying to influence other people.

          > From my experience the one sure method of convincing someone is to
          > lead him all the way until he comes to the required conclusion
          > himself. (and its best that he doesn't catch on what you are doing
          > otherwise as you said you will be considered evil)

          If you are trying to make up their minds for them, you *are* evil.
          Acting the best way you know how and looking for receptive moments to
          share that (as well as looking for your own receptive moments to listen
          someone else's perspective) works, and remains respectful of the other
          person.

          Kent Beck
          Three Rivers Institute
        • Kent Beck
          ... Saying weak/strong is judgemental--strong is good, weak is bad. If someone doesn t feel like shouting you down, that doesn t mean they are weak. Maybe they
          Message 4 of 13 , Sep 2, 2004
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            > -----Original Message-----
            > From: Ron Jeffries [mailto:ronjeffries@...]
            > Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2004 4:52 AM
            > To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
            > Subject: Re: [XP] Information, Propaganda; Influence, Manipulation.
            >
            >
            > On Wednesday, September 1, 2004, at 7:43:52 AM, Lior Fridman wrote:
            >
            > > Yes. And yet, we only know what people do, not what they
            > think. Is it
            > > perhaps even more insulting to tone down our style for the weak and
            > > not-so-fleet of tongue?
            >
            > It's a metaphor, people, a turn of phrase. I know you're not weak just

            > because you can't hold your own in a reasonable conversation such as
            > Lior and I are familiar with.
            >
            > Differently strong, that's it.
            >
            > Geeze, people are so sensitive.

            Saying weak/strong is judgemental--strong is good, weak is bad. If
            someone doesn't feel like shouting you down, that doesn't mean they are
            weak. Maybe they have better things to do with their time. In the
            meantime, you've missed a chance to connect with them by insisting on
            seeing your intimidating behavior as strong.

            Kent Beck
            Three Rivers Institute
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