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Re: [XP] Information, Propaganda; Influence, Manipulation.

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  • Victor
    ... Actually, different doesn t necessarily mean that one is weaker than the other. Similarly to the fact that in intergalactic space there is no up or
    Message 1 of 13 , Sep 1 4:31 AM
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      > > And its usually better to understand that they are different and
      > > therefore will expect different treatment.
      >
      > Yes. And yet, we only know what people do, not what they think. Is it
      > perhaps even more insulting to tone down our style for the weak and
      > not-so-fleet of tongue?

      Actually, "different" doesn't necessarily mean that one is weaker than the
      other. Similarly to the fact that in intergalactic space there is no up or
      down, just different dimensions, many of which may appear to be isotropic at
      first glance, thinking unidimensionaly (weak-strong) tends to limit our
      understanding of the environment in which we live. This affects the way we
      communicate, and our potential for success.

      On the other hand, overanalyzing can also be a debilitating influence. So,
      the art is in finding the right balance. Interestingly enough, what makes
      XP such a powerful methodology is the fact that it gives a practical way to
      approach such a balance: Cooperate, keep it simple, refactor, work
      iteratively, test.

      Victor



      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Ron Jeffries" <ronjeffries@...>
      To: <extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2004 5:39 AM
      Subject: Re: [XP] Information, Propaganda; Influence, Manipulation.


      > Thanks for sharing ...
      >
      > On Wednesday, September 1, 2004, at 1:57:59 AM, Lior Fridman wrote:
      >
      > > The amazing is that since the whole thing blew up my Boss keeps asking
      > > me why the hell do you take it so personally.
      > > Its just a job there is no use to get upset about it.
      > > And basically he is right but I that's the way I am. I care for the
      > > things I do and it is important to me that they will be done the right
      > > way (which is of course my way ;) ).
      >
      > Yes. The alternative to caring seems to be "not caring". What I've learned
      > is that there's more than one way to influence things. Violence isn't the
      > /only/ answer. :)
      >
      > And yet, there's this "manipulation" thread going around. If one got
      really
      > nimble at presenting one's ideas in the best way to influence others, one
      > might be thought to be even more evil.
      >
      > It's a puzzlement.
      >
      > > The morale of this brings me back to your statement that "I treat others
      > > as if they were the same"
      > > I think this kind of an approach is common enough. But I have learned
      > > that its usually not the case
      > > Most people are not like each other.
      > > And its usually better to understand that they are different and
      > > therefore will expect different treatment.
      >
      > Yes. And yet, we only know what people do, not what they think. Is it
      > perhaps even more insulting to tone down our style for the weak and
      > not-so-fleet of tongue?
      >
      > I do try not to make it personal. I try to edit "you" out of my
      > conversation. But relent? There's a move in taiji: Apparent Fall Back.
      > That's about where I'm at.
      >
      > Ron Jeffries
      > www.XProgramming.com
      > The Great and Powerful Oz has spoken.
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
      >
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      extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
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    • Lior Fridman
      Ron hi,Its not matter of toning down one style. Its more of a culture thing. Where I came from the organization culture was to shout loud and if that didn t
      Message 2 of 13 , Sep 1 4:43 AM
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        Ron hi,

        Its not matter of toning down one style.
        Its more of a culture thing. Where I came from the organization culture
        was to shout loud
        and if that didn't work than we just shouted louder.
        No one got offended and since everyone cared everyone felt ok with this.

        When I arrived to this new place people changed but I forgot and kept
        doing the same
        It's not that here people are "weaker" (well some yes but yet again most
        are not) they just wasn't used to the shouting style.
        Unfortonately the damage has been done and it will take a major effort
        to fix it, but hey im trying.

        As you said there are many method of trying to influence other people.
        From my experience the one sure method of convincing someone is to lead
        him all the way until he comes to the required conclusion himself. (and
        its best that he doesn't catch on what you are doing otherwise as you
        said you will be considered evil)

        Its just that each one respond differntly to each method
        And as a rule its not wise to assume that the one that is most affective
        on you is also effective on others.
        It can be a sure way of ticking people off.

        And no I wont stop caring the moment I do that I know its time to look
        for another job.

        Lior


        -----Original Message-----
        From: Ron Jeffries [mailto:ronjeffries@...]
        Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2004 12:39 PM
        To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [XP] Information, Propaganda; Influence, Manipulation.

        Thanks for sharing ...

        On Wednesday, September 1, 2004, at 1:57:59 AM, Lior Fridman wrote:

        > The amazing is that since the whole thing blew up my Boss keeps asking

        > me why the hell do you take it so personally.
        > Its just a job there is no use to get upset about it.
        > And basically he is right but I that's the way I am. I care for the
        > things I do and it is important to me that they will be done the right

        > way (which is of course my way ;) ).

        Yes. The alternative to caring seems to be "not caring". What I've
        learned is that there's more than one way to influence things. Violence
        isn't the /only/ answer. :)

        And yet, there's this "manipulation" thread going around. If one got
        really nimble at presenting one's ideas in the best way to influence
        others, one might be thought to be even more evil.

        It's a puzzlement.

        > The morale of this brings me back to your statement that "I treat
        > others as if they were the same"
        > I think this kind of an approach is common enough. But I have learned

        > that its usually not the case Most people are not like each other.
        > And its usually better to understand that they are different and
        > therefore will expect different treatment.

        Yes. And yet, we only know what people do, not what they think. Is it
        perhaps even more insulting to tone down our style for the weak and
        not-so-fleet of tongue?

        I do try not to make it personal. I try to edit "you" out of my
        conversation. But relent? There's a move in taiji: Apparent Fall Back.
        That's about where I'm at.

        Ron Jeffries
        www.XProgramming.com
        The Great and Powerful Oz has spoken.




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      • Ron Jeffries
        ... I ve seen recent examples of that. Ron Jeffries www.XProgramming.com The rules are ways of thinking, not ways to avoid thinking.
        Message 3 of 13 , Sep 1 4:49 AM
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          On Wednesday, September 1, 2004, at 7:31:32 AM, Victor wrote:

          > On the other hand, overanalyzing can also be a debilitating influence.

          I've seen recent examples of that.

          Ron Jeffries
          www.XProgramming.com
          The rules are ways of thinking, not ways to avoid thinking.
        • Ron Jeffries
          ... It s a metaphor, people, a turn of phrase. I know you re not weak just because you can t hold your own in a reasonable conversation such as Lior and I are
          Message 4 of 13 , Sep 1 4:52 AM
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            On Wednesday, September 1, 2004, at 7:43:52 AM, Lior Fridman wrote:

            > Yes. And yet, we only know what people do, not what they think. Is it
            > perhaps even more insulting to tone down our style for the weak and
            > not-so-fleet of tongue?

            It's a metaphor, people, a turn of phrase. I know you're not weak just
            because you can't hold your own in a reasonable conversation such as Lior
            and I are familiar with.

            Differently strong, that's it.

            Geeze, people are so sensitive.

            Ron Jeffries
            www.XProgramming.com
            Do we learn more through cynicism, or through some other mental posture?
          • Dale Emery
            Hi Ron, ... The insult would be in making certain kinds of assumptions about the other person. Perhaps you could avoid that by asking the other person s
            Message 5 of 13 , Sep 1 5:05 PM
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              Hi Ron,

              > Yes. And yet, we only know what people do, not what they
              > think. Is it perhaps even more insulting to tone down our
              > style for the weak and not-so-fleet of tongue?

              The insult would be in making certain kinds of assumptions about
              the other person. Perhaps you could avoid that by asking the
              other person's preferences for how you interact with them.

              > I do try not to make it personal. I try to edit "you" out of
              > my conversation.

              Interesting. My approach is to make it more personal, such as by
              speaking about myself and my experience in a personal way, or by
              speaking to the person I'm speaking to in a more personal way.

              I'm probably wildly inconsistent in using "you" to refer
              specifically to one person I'm talking to and to refer to a
              general "you."

              I've come to have a bad reaction to the pronoun "one" in
              reference to some general person. It feels too abstract and
              impersonal to me. I drag in all kinds of stereotypical
              associations with academia, including a feeling of being
              pontificated at.

              Dale

              --
              Dale Emery, Consultant
              Collaborative Leadership for Software People
              Web: http://www.dhemery.com
              Weblog: http://www.dhemery.com/cwd

              Whenever two people meet, there are really six people present.
              There is each man as he sees himself, each man as the other
              person sees him, and each man as he really is. --William James
            • Kent Beck
              ... If you are trying to make up their minds for them, you *are* evil. Acting the best way you know how and looking for receptive moments to share that (as
              Message 6 of 13 , Sep 2 11:09 PM
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                > -----Original Message-----
                > From: Lior Fridman [mailto:lior.fridman@...]
                > Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2004 4:44 AM
                > To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
                > Subject: RE: [XP] Information, Propaganda; Influence, Manipulation.
                >
                > As you said there are many method of trying to influence other people.

                > From my experience the one sure method of convincing someone is to
                > lead him all the way until he comes to the required conclusion
                > himself. (and its best that he doesn't catch on what you are doing
                > otherwise as you said you will be considered evil)

                If you are trying to make up their minds for them, you *are* evil.
                Acting the best way you know how and looking for receptive moments to
                share that (as well as looking for your own receptive moments to listen
                someone else's perspective) works, and remains respectful of the other
                person.

                Kent Beck
                Three Rivers Institute
              • Kent Beck
                ... Saying weak/strong is judgemental--strong is good, weak is bad. If someone doesn t feel like shouting you down, that doesn t mean they are weak. Maybe they
                Message 7 of 13 , Sep 2 11:11 PM
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                  > -----Original Message-----
                  > From: Ron Jeffries [mailto:ronjeffries@...]
                  > Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2004 4:52 AM
                  > To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
                  > Subject: Re: [XP] Information, Propaganda; Influence, Manipulation.
                  >
                  >
                  > On Wednesday, September 1, 2004, at 7:43:52 AM, Lior Fridman wrote:
                  >
                  > > Yes. And yet, we only know what people do, not what they
                  > think. Is it
                  > > perhaps even more insulting to tone down our style for the weak and
                  > > not-so-fleet of tongue?
                  >
                  > It's a metaphor, people, a turn of phrase. I know you're not weak just

                  > because you can't hold your own in a reasonable conversation such as
                  > Lior and I are familiar with.
                  >
                  > Differently strong, that's it.
                  >
                  > Geeze, people are so sensitive.

                  Saying weak/strong is judgemental--strong is good, weak is bad. If
                  someone doesn't feel like shouting you down, that doesn't mean they are
                  weak. Maybe they have better things to do with their time. In the
                  meantime, you've missed a chance to connect with them by insisting on
                  seeing your intimidating behavior as strong.

                  Kent Beck
                  Three Rivers Institute
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