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Re: [XP] Information, Propaganda; Influence, Manipulation.

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  • Ron Jeffries
    Thanks for sharing ... ... Yes. The alternative to caring seems to be not caring . What I ve learned is that there s more than one way to influence things.
    Message 1 of 13 , Sep 1, 2004
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      Thanks for sharing ...

      On Wednesday, September 1, 2004, at 1:57:59 AM, Lior Fridman wrote:

      > The amazing is that since the whole thing blew up my Boss keeps asking
      > me why the hell do you take it so personally.
      > Its just a job there is no use to get upset about it.
      > And basically he is right but I that's the way I am. I care for the
      > things I do and it is important to me that they will be done the right
      > way (which is of course my way ;) ).

      Yes. The alternative to caring seems to be "not caring". What I've learned
      is that there's more than one way to influence things. Violence isn't the
      /only/ answer. :)

      And yet, there's this "manipulation" thread going around. If one got really
      nimble at presenting one's ideas in the best way to influence others, one
      might be thought to be even more evil.

      It's a puzzlement.

      > The morale of this brings me back to your statement that "I treat others
      > as if they were the same"
      > I think this kind of an approach is common enough. But I have learned
      > that its usually not the case
      > Most people are not like each other.
      > And its usually better to understand that they are different and
      > therefore will expect different treatment.

      Yes. And yet, we only know what people do, not what they think. Is it
      perhaps even more insulting to tone down our style for the weak and
      not-so-fleet of tongue?

      I do try not to make it personal. I try to edit "you" out of my
      conversation. But relent? There's a move in taiji: Apparent Fall Back.
      That's about where I'm at.

      Ron Jeffries
      www.XProgramming.com
      The Great and Powerful Oz has spoken.
    • Victor
      ... Yes, I noticed that frequently wives tend to pick up that role, and the husbands that listen are winners. Those that don t listen tend to become
      Message 2 of 13 , Sep 1, 2004
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        > And BTW I actually have my wife to thank for teaching me this very
        > important lesson.

        Yes, I noticed that frequently wives tend to pick up that role, and the
        husbands that listen are winners. Those that don't listen tend to become
        divorced. :-)

        Victor


        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "Lior Fridman" <lior.fridman@...>
        To: <extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2004 1:57 AM
        Subject: RE: [XP] Information, Propaganda; Influence, Manipulation.


        >
        >
        > Well I don't mind telling.
        >
        > I myself as you are am very passionate about my work.
        > When I think that something should be done one way and not another I
        > tend to try my best to convince
        > everyone of it. Usually if the other person thinks differently, things
        > can get, well lets say loud.
        > I myself have no problem with that, and usually the other side is also
        > ok. when such a technical meeting is over its over, nothing said in it
        > reflect any personal feeling
        >
        > For me even, if in such a meeting, someone will say something like "look
        > I just think you're a fool and your approach is stupid" its fair enough
        > I prefer people to use the harshest term possible.
        > This kind of approach however needs some getting used to. And lately I
        > forgot that not everyone is as passionate and not everyone understand
        > such behavior.
        > It got to the point where people were starting to feel uncomfortable
        > around me. And felt that they needed to have a serious conversation with
        > me. I think that they thought that I was disrespecting and offensive. I
        > forgot that sometimes when you voice your opinion about people ideas it
        > is can be confused with your opinion on them. And if you're passionate
        > enough it is just taken the wrong way.
        >
        > The amazing is that since the whole thing blew up my Boss keeps asking
        > me why the hell do you take it so personally.
        > Its just a job there is no use to get upset about it.
        > And basically he is right but I that's the way I am. I care for the
        > things I do and it is important to me that they will be done the right
        > way (which is of course my way ;) ).
        >
        > The morale of this brings me back to your statement that "I treat others
        > as if they were the same"
        > I think this kind of an approach is common enough. But I have learned
        > that its usually not the case
        > Most people are not like each other.
        > And its usually better to understand that they are different and
        > therefore will expect different treatment.
        >
        > And BTW I actually have my wife to thank for teaching me this very
        > important lesson.
        >
        > Lior
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: Ron Jeffries [mailto:ronjeffries@...]
        > Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2004 1:30 PM
        > To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
        > Subject: Re: [XP] Information, Propaganda; Influence, Manipulation.
        >
        > On Tuesday, August 31, 2004, at 3:10:28 AM, Lior Fridman wrote:
        >
        > > Ron Jeffries wrote
        > >> I'm passionate about what I believe, and at the same time, I think,
        > >> open to learning new things, even things that contradict what I
        > >> believe. I treat others as if they were the same, and consider it a
        > >> compliment to make that assumption.
        >
        > > Well said and I agree with all my heart.
        > > However always keep in mind that not everyone is like that/ can accept
        >
        > > this approach I recently forgot it and surprise surprise it just blew
        > > up in my face
        >
        > Would it be useful for us to hear the story at this time?
        >
        > Ron Jeffries
        > www.XProgramming.com
        > Fatalism is born of the fear of failure, for we all believe that we
        > carry success in our own hands, and we suspect that our hands are weak.
        > -- Conrad
        >
        >
        >
        >
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        > The information contained in this message is proprietary of Amdocs,
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      • Victor
        ... Because of the Nazi, Al-Qaeda, Taliban, Sudan, Rwanda, Abu Ghareb, the Inquisition, and many other sad aspects of the human experience, I would change the
        Message 3 of 13 , Sep 1, 2004
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          > 1. I believe that everyone is just as "good" a person as everyone else.

          Because of the Nazi, Al-Qaeda, Taliban, Sudan, Rwanda, Abu Ghareb, the
          Inquisition, and many other sad aspects of the human experience, I would
          change the above statement to something like:

          As a first approximation to a working assumption, I accept the possibility
          that initially everybody has the potential of being as "good" a person as
          everyone else.

          Victor

          ========================================

          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "Ron Jeffries" <ronjeffries@...>
          To: <extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2004 5:25 AM
          Subject: Re: [XP] Information, Propaganda; Influence, Manipulation.


          > On Wednesday, September 1, 2004, at 1:48:03 AM, Brad Appleton wrote:
          >
          > > On Mon, Aug 30, 2004 at 10:22:31PM -0400, Ron Jeffries wrote:
          > >> I'm passionate about what I believe, and at the same
          > >> time, I think, open to learning new things, even things
          > >> that contradict what I believe.
          > > [...]
          > >> I'm in this to influence people, and I feel confident
          > >> that that's written all over me. Sometimes I do
          > >> it surprisingly well, sometimes I do it incredibly
          > >> poorly. Always I do it from my heart. I say what I
          > >> believe. The listener gets to decide what to do with it.
          >
          > > Your description above seem to describe what I and others
          > > might call an "Evangelist". Would you agree with that
          > > characterization?
          >
          > In the sense which I believe was originated by Apple, yes. In the more
          > religious sense of the term, the association is probably odious to all
          > those who prefer to keep their software and their theology separate.
          >
          > But yes. I suppose I am.
          >
          > >> There are those who hear propaganda if our material is
          > >> well organized, who feel manipulated if approached with
          > >> passion and fervor. That doesn't make it true.
          >
          > > I think there are also those who see passonate advocacy
          > > or evangelism and label it preaching/preachy. Some (even
          > > some who aren't already in "the choir") like being preached
          > > to. Others don't mind. Still others do mind - feeling as if
          > > are being judged or invalidated simply because some things
          > > they thought they knew were challenged/invalidated.
          >
          > Yes, I've noticed that. Any given "speaker" can only reach some subset of
          > the audience. One would like to reach as many as possible, of course, but
          > any given style or approach will get some, miss others.
          >
          > Quite possibly I have one or more inferior styles. I have to live with
          > that, though I'm not satisfied with it, and I do always try to improve.
          >
          > > Agility has been described by some as more of a mind-set
          > > than anything else - one that has a particular set of values
          > > and beliefs. Some see/hear values&beliefs and think "culture"
          > > and "norms". Others see/hear the same thing and think "religion"
          > > and "faith". Thus, one person's evangelist is another person's
          > > "zealot" or fanatic. To some "try it and see" is a statement
          > > that is empowering and non-imposing. Others regard the same
          > > statement as an indication that "faith" is required - and
          > > it is faith predicated upon values&beleifs that do not (yet?)
          > > hold. Others would call it trust - but some would still call it
          > > faith, and therefore associate it with religion/cult.
          >
          > Yes. Mostly I just try to explain things as well as I can, adapting to the
          > situation, and I try not to take things too personally. Often that works.
          >
          > >> I treat others as if they were the same, and consider
          > >> it a compliment to make that assumption.
          >
          > > I have made that same mistake many times. Sometimes even
          > > when they are the same - they still don't consider it a
          > > compliment (at least not from me :-)
          >
          > 1. I believe that everyone is just as "good" a person as everyone else.
          >
          > 2. I believe that there is value in ideas, and in the conflict of ideas.
          >
          > 3. I believe that change is hard, and that there are many ways to lead us
          > horses to water.
          >
          > I wish that in my "work", number 1 was more obvious. It remains true,
          > whether or not obvious.
          >
          > Ron Jeffries
          > www.XProgramming.com
          > Ron Jeffries, speaking for Boskone ... Out.
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
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        • Victor
          ... Actually, different doesn t necessarily mean that one is weaker than the other. Similarly to the fact that in intergalactic space there is no up or
          Message 4 of 13 , Sep 1, 2004
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            > > And its usually better to understand that they are different and
            > > therefore will expect different treatment.
            >
            > Yes. And yet, we only know what people do, not what they think. Is it
            > perhaps even more insulting to tone down our style for the weak and
            > not-so-fleet of tongue?

            Actually, "different" doesn't necessarily mean that one is weaker than the
            other. Similarly to the fact that in intergalactic space there is no up or
            down, just different dimensions, many of which may appear to be isotropic at
            first glance, thinking unidimensionaly (weak-strong) tends to limit our
            understanding of the environment in which we live. This affects the way we
            communicate, and our potential for success.

            On the other hand, overanalyzing can also be a debilitating influence. So,
            the art is in finding the right balance. Interestingly enough, what makes
            XP such a powerful methodology is the fact that it gives a practical way to
            approach such a balance: Cooperate, keep it simple, refactor, work
            iteratively, test.

            Victor



            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "Ron Jeffries" <ronjeffries@...>
            To: <extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2004 5:39 AM
            Subject: Re: [XP] Information, Propaganda; Influence, Manipulation.


            > Thanks for sharing ...
            >
            > On Wednesday, September 1, 2004, at 1:57:59 AM, Lior Fridman wrote:
            >
            > > The amazing is that since the whole thing blew up my Boss keeps asking
            > > me why the hell do you take it so personally.
            > > Its just a job there is no use to get upset about it.
            > > And basically he is right but I that's the way I am. I care for the
            > > things I do and it is important to me that they will be done the right
            > > way (which is of course my way ;) ).
            >
            > Yes. The alternative to caring seems to be "not caring". What I've learned
            > is that there's more than one way to influence things. Violence isn't the
            > /only/ answer. :)
            >
            > And yet, there's this "manipulation" thread going around. If one got
            really
            > nimble at presenting one's ideas in the best way to influence others, one
            > might be thought to be even more evil.
            >
            > It's a puzzlement.
            >
            > > The morale of this brings me back to your statement that "I treat others
            > > as if they were the same"
            > > I think this kind of an approach is common enough. But I have learned
            > > that its usually not the case
            > > Most people are not like each other.
            > > And its usually better to understand that they are different and
            > > therefore will expect different treatment.
            >
            > Yes. And yet, we only know what people do, not what they think. Is it
            > perhaps even more insulting to tone down our style for the weak and
            > not-so-fleet of tongue?
            >
            > I do try not to make it personal. I try to edit "you" out of my
            > conversation. But relent? There's a move in taiji: Apparent Fall Back.
            > That's about where I'm at.
            >
            > Ron Jeffries
            > www.XProgramming.com
            > The Great and Powerful Oz has spoken.
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
            >
            > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
            extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
            >
            > ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.com
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
          • Lior Fridman
            Ron hi,Its not matter of toning down one style. Its more of a culture thing. Where I came from the organization culture was to shout loud and if that didn t
            Message 5 of 13 , Sep 1, 2004
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              Ron hi,

              Its not matter of toning down one style.
              Its more of a culture thing. Where I came from the organization culture
              was to shout loud
              and if that didn't work than we just shouted louder.
              No one got offended and since everyone cared everyone felt ok with this.

              When I arrived to this new place people changed but I forgot and kept
              doing the same
              It's not that here people are "weaker" (well some yes but yet again most
              are not) they just wasn't used to the shouting style.
              Unfortonately the damage has been done and it will take a major effort
              to fix it, but hey im trying.

              As you said there are many method of trying to influence other people.
              From my experience the one sure method of convincing someone is to lead
              him all the way until he comes to the required conclusion himself. (and
              its best that he doesn't catch on what you are doing otherwise as you
              said you will be considered evil)

              Its just that each one respond differntly to each method
              And as a rule its not wise to assume that the one that is most affective
              on you is also effective on others.
              It can be a sure way of ticking people off.

              And no I wont stop caring the moment I do that I know its time to look
              for another job.

              Lior


              -----Original Message-----
              From: Ron Jeffries [mailto:ronjeffries@...]
              Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2004 12:39 PM
              To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [XP] Information, Propaganda; Influence, Manipulation.

              Thanks for sharing ...

              On Wednesday, September 1, 2004, at 1:57:59 AM, Lior Fridman wrote:

              > The amazing is that since the whole thing blew up my Boss keeps asking

              > me why the hell do you take it so personally.
              > Its just a job there is no use to get upset about it.
              > And basically he is right but I that's the way I am. I care for the
              > things I do and it is important to me that they will be done the right

              > way (which is of course my way ;) ).

              Yes. The alternative to caring seems to be "not caring". What I've
              learned is that there's more than one way to influence things. Violence
              isn't the /only/ answer. :)

              And yet, there's this "manipulation" thread going around. If one got
              really nimble at presenting one's ideas in the best way to influence
              others, one might be thought to be even more evil.

              It's a puzzlement.

              > The morale of this brings me back to your statement that "I treat
              > others as if they were the same"
              > I think this kind of an approach is common enough. But I have learned

              > that its usually not the case Most people are not like each other.
              > And its usually better to understand that they are different and
              > therefore will expect different treatment.

              Yes. And yet, we only know what people do, not what they think. Is it
              perhaps even more insulting to tone down our style for the weak and
              not-so-fleet of tongue?

              I do try not to make it personal. I try to edit "you" out of my
              conversation. But relent? There's a move in taiji: Apparent Fall Back.
              That's about where I'm at.

              Ron Jeffries
              www.XProgramming.com
              The Great and Powerful Oz has spoken.




              To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...

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              The information is intended to be conveyed only to the designated recipient(s)
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            • Ron Jeffries
              ... I ve seen recent examples of that. Ron Jeffries www.XProgramming.com The rules are ways of thinking, not ways to avoid thinking.
              Message 6 of 13 , Sep 1, 2004
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                On Wednesday, September 1, 2004, at 7:31:32 AM, Victor wrote:

                > On the other hand, overanalyzing can also be a debilitating influence.

                I've seen recent examples of that.

                Ron Jeffries
                www.XProgramming.com
                The rules are ways of thinking, not ways to avoid thinking.
              • Ron Jeffries
                ... It s a metaphor, people, a turn of phrase. I know you re not weak just because you can t hold your own in a reasonable conversation such as Lior and I are
                Message 7 of 13 , Sep 1, 2004
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                  On Wednesday, September 1, 2004, at 7:43:52 AM, Lior Fridman wrote:

                  > Yes. And yet, we only know what people do, not what they think. Is it
                  > perhaps even more insulting to tone down our style for the weak and
                  > not-so-fleet of tongue?

                  It's a metaphor, people, a turn of phrase. I know you're not weak just
                  because you can't hold your own in a reasonable conversation such as Lior
                  and I are familiar with.

                  Differently strong, that's it.

                  Geeze, people are so sensitive.

                  Ron Jeffries
                  www.XProgramming.com
                  Do we learn more through cynicism, or through some other mental posture?
                • Dale Emery
                  Hi Ron, ... The insult would be in making certain kinds of assumptions about the other person. Perhaps you could avoid that by asking the other person s
                  Message 8 of 13 , Sep 1, 2004
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                    Hi Ron,

                    > Yes. And yet, we only know what people do, not what they
                    > think. Is it perhaps even more insulting to tone down our
                    > style for the weak and not-so-fleet of tongue?

                    The insult would be in making certain kinds of assumptions about
                    the other person. Perhaps you could avoid that by asking the
                    other person's preferences for how you interact with them.

                    > I do try not to make it personal. I try to edit "you" out of
                    > my conversation.

                    Interesting. My approach is to make it more personal, such as by
                    speaking about myself and my experience in a personal way, or by
                    speaking to the person I'm speaking to in a more personal way.

                    I'm probably wildly inconsistent in using "you" to refer
                    specifically to one person I'm talking to and to refer to a
                    general "you."

                    I've come to have a bad reaction to the pronoun "one" in
                    reference to some general person. It feels too abstract and
                    impersonal to me. I drag in all kinds of stereotypical
                    associations with academia, including a feeling of being
                    pontificated at.

                    Dale

                    --
                    Dale Emery, Consultant
                    Collaborative Leadership for Software People
                    Web: http://www.dhemery.com
                    Weblog: http://www.dhemery.com/cwd

                    Whenever two people meet, there are really six people present.
                    There is each man as he sees himself, each man as the other
                    person sees him, and each man as he really is. --William James
                  • Kent Beck
                    ... If you are trying to make up their minds for them, you *are* evil. Acting the best way you know how and looking for receptive moments to share that (as
                    Message 9 of 13 , Sep 2, 2004
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                      > -----Original Message-----
                      > From: Lior Fridman [mailto:lior.fridman@...]
                      > Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2004 4:44 AM
                      > To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
                      > Subject: RE: [XP] Information, Propaganda; Influence, Manipulation.
                      >
                      > As you said there are many method of trying to influence other people.

                      > From my experience the one sure method of convincing someone is to
                      > lead him all the way until he comes to the required conclusion
                      > himself. (and its best that he doesn't catch on what you are doing
                      > otherwise as you said you will be considered evil)

                      If you are trying to make up their minds for them, you *are* evil.
                      Acting the best way you know how and looking for receptive moments to
                      share that (as well as looking for your own receptive moments to listen
                      someone else's perspective) works, and remains respectful of the other
                      person.

                      Kent Beck
                      Three Rivers Institute
                    • Kent Beck
                      ... Saying weak/strong is judgemental--strong is good, weak is bad. If someone doesn t feel like shouting you down, that doesn t mean they are weak. Maybe they
                      Message 10 of 13 , Sep 2, 2004
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                        > -----Original Message-----
                        > From: Ron Jeffries [mailto:ronjeffries@...]
                        > Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2004 4:52 AM
                        > To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
                        > Subject: Re: [XP] Information, Propaganda; Influence, Manipulation.
                        >
                        >
                        > On Wednesday, September 1, 2004, at 7:43:52 AM, Lior Fridman wrote:
                        >
                        > > Yes. And yet, we only know what people do, not what they
                        > think. Is it
                        > > perhaps even more insulting to tone down our style for the weak and
                        > > not-so-fleet of tongue?
                        >
                        > It's a metaphor, people, a turn of phrase. I know you're not weak just

                        > because you can't hold your own in a reasonable conversation such as
                        > Lior and I are familiar with.
                        >
                        > Differently strong, that's it.
                        >
                        > Geeze, people are so sensitive.

                        Saying weak/strong is judgemental--strong is good, weak is bad. If
                        someone doesn't feel like shouting you down, that doesn't mean they are
                        weak. Maybe they have better things to do with their time. In the
                        meantime, you've missed a chance to connect with them by insisting on
                        seeing your intimidating behavior as strong.

                        Kent Beck
                        Three Rivers Institute
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