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RE: [XP] Information, Propaganda; Influence, Manipulation.

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  • Lior Fridman
    Ron Jeffries wrote I m passionate about what I believe, and at the same time, I think, open to learning new things, even things that contradict what I
    Message 1 of 13 , Aug 31, 2004
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      Ron Jeffries wrote
      > I'm passionate about what I believe, and at the same time, I think,
      open to learning new things, even things that contradict what I
      > believe. I treat others as if they were the same, and consider it a
      compliment to make that assumption.

      Well said and I agree with all my heart.
      However always keep in mind that not everyone is like that/ can accept
      this approach
      I recently forgot it and surprise surprise it just blew up in my face

      Lior

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    • Ron Jeffries
      ... Would it be useful for us to hear the story at this time? Ron Jeffries www.XProgramming.com Fatalism is born of the fear of failure, for we all believe
      Message 2 of 13 , Aug 31, 2004
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        On Tuesday, August 31, 2004, at 3:10:28 AM, Lior Fridman wrote:

        > Ron Jeffries wrote
        >> I'm passionate about what I believe, and at the same time, I think, open
        >> to learning new things, even things that contradict what I believe. I
        >> treat others as if they were the same, and consider it a compliment to
        >> make that assumption.

        > Well said and I agree with all my heart.
        > However always keep in mind that not everyone is like that/ can accept
        > this approach
        > I recently forgot it and surprise surprise it just blew up in my face

        Would it be useful for us to hear the story at this time?

        Ron Jeffries
        www.XProgramming.com
        Fatalism is born of the fear of failure, for we all believe that we carry
        success in our own hands, and we suspect that our hands are weak. -- Conrad
      • Lior Fridman
        Well I don t mind telling.I myself as you are am very passionate about my work. When I think that something should be done one way and not another I tend to
        Message 3 of 13 , Aug 31, 2004
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          Well I don't mind telling.

          I myself as you are am very passionate about my work.
          When I think that something should be done one way and not another I
          tend to try my best to convince
          everyone of it. Usually if the other person thinks differently, things
          can get, well lets say loud.
          I myself have no problem with that, and usually the other side is also
          ok. when such a technical meeting is over its over, nothing said in it
          reflect any personal feeling

          For me even, if in such a meeting, someone will say something like "look
          I just think you're a fool and your approach is stupid" its fair enough
          I prefer people to use the harshest term possible.
          This kind of approach however needs some getting used to. And lately I
          forgot that not everyone is as passionate and not everyone understand
          such behavior.
          It got to the point where people were starting to feel uncomfortable
          around me. And felt that they needed to have a serious conversation with
          me. I think that they thought that I was disrespecting and offensive. I
          forgot that sometimes when you voice your opinion about people ideas it
          is can be confused with your opinion on them. And if you're passionate
          enough it is just taken the wrong way.

          The amazing is that since the whole thing blew up my Boss keeps asking
          me why the hell do you take it so personally.
          Its just a job there is no use to get upset about it.
          And basically he is right but I that's the way I am. I care for the
          things I do and it is important to me that they will be done the right
          way (which is of course my way ;) ).

          The morale of this brings me back to your statement that "I treat others
          as if they were the same"
          I think this kind of an approach is common enough. But I have learned
          that its usually not the case
          Most people are not like each other.
          And its usually better to understand that they are different and
          therefore will expect different treatment.

          And BTW I actually have my wife to thank for teaching me this very
          important lesson.

          Lior




          -----Original Message-----
          From: Ron Jeffries [mailto:ronjeffries@...]
          Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2004 1:30 PM
          To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [XP] Information, Propaganda; Influence, Manipulation.

          On Tuesday, August 31, 2004, at 3:10:28 AM, Lior Fridman wrote:

          > Ron Jeffries wrote
          >> I'm passionate about what I believe, and at the same time, I think,
          >> open to learning new things, even things that contradict what I
          >> believe. I treat others as if they were the same, and consider it a
          >> compliment to make that assumption.

          > Well said and I agree with all my heart.
          > However always keep in mind that not everyone is like that/ can accept

          > this approach I recently forgot it and surprise surprise it just blew
          > up in my face

          Would it be useful for us to hear the story at this time?

          Ron Jeffries
          www.XProgramming.com
          Fatalism is born of the fear of failure, for we all believe that we
          carry success in our own hands, and we suspect that our hands are weak.
          -- Conrad




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        • Ron Jeffries
          Thanks for sharing ... ... Yes. The alternative to caring seems to be not caring . What I ve learned is that there s more than one way to influence things.
          Message 4 of 13 , Sep 1, 2004
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            Thanks for sharing ...

            On Wednesday, September 1, 2004, at 1:57:59 AM, Lior Fridman wrote:

            > The amazing is that since the whole thing blew up my Boss keeps asking
            > me why the hell do you take it so personally.
            > Its just a job there is no use to get upset about it.
            > And basically he is right but I that's the way I am. I care for the
            > things I do and it is important to me that they will be done the right
            > way (which is of course my way ;) ).

            Yes. The alternative to caring seems to be "not caring". What I've learned
            is that there's more than one way to influence things. Violence isn't the
            /only/ answer. :)

            And yet, there's this "manipulation" thread going around. If one got really
            nimble at presenting one's ideas in the best way to influence others, one
            might be thought to be even more evil.

            It's a puzzlement.

            > The morale of this brings me back to your statement that "I treat others
            > as if they were the same"
            > I think this kind of an approach is common enough. But I have learned
            > that its usually not the case
            > Most people are not like each other.
            > And its usually better to understand that they are different and
            > therefore will expect different treatment.

            Yes. And yet, we only know what people do, not what they think. Is it
            perhaps even more insulting to tone down our style for the weak and
            not-so-fleet of tongue?

            I do try not to make it personal. I try to edit "you" out of my
            conversation. But relent? There's a move in taiji: Apparent Fall Back.
            That's about where I'm at.

            Ron Jeffries
            www.XProgramming.com
            The Great and Powerful Oz has spoken.
          • Victor
            ... Yes, I noticed that frequently wives tend to pick up that role, and the husbands that listen are winners. Those that don t listen tend to become
            Message 5 of 13 , Sep 1, 2004
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              > And BTW I actually have my wife to thank for teaching me this very
              > important lesson.

              Yes, I noticed that frequently wives tend to pick up that role, and the
              husbands that listen are winners. Those that don't listen tend to become
              divorced. :-)

              Victor


              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "Lior Fridman" <lior.fridman@...>
              To: <extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2004 1:57 AM
              Subject: RE: [XP] Information, Propaganda; Influence, Manipulation.


              >
              >
              > Well I don't mind telling.
              >
              > I myself as you are am very passionate about my work.
              > When I think that something should be done one way and not another I
              > tend to try my best to convince
              > everyone of it. Usually if the other person thinks differently, things
              > can get, well lets say loud.
              > I myself have no problem with that, and usually the other side is also
              > ok. when such a technical meeting is over its over, nothing said in it
              > reflect any personal feeling
              >
              > For me even, if in such a meeting, someone will say something like "look
              > I just think you're a fool and your approach is stupid" its fair enough
              > I prefer people to use the harshest term possible.
              > This kind of approach however needs some getting used to. And lately I
              > forgot that not everyone is as passionate and not everyone understand
              > such behavior.
              > It got to the point where people were starting to feel uncomfortable
              > around me. And felt that they needed to have a serious conversation with
              > me. I think that they thought that I was disrespecting and offensive. I
              > forgot that sometimes when you voice your opinion about people ideas it
              > is can be confused with your opinion on them. And if you're passionate
              > enough it is just taken the wrong way.
              >
              > The amazing is that since the whole thing blew up my Boss keeps asking
              > me why the hell do you take it so personally.
              > Its just a job there is no use to get upset about it.
              > And basically he is right but I that's the way I am. I care for the
              > things I do and it is important to me that they will be done the right
              > way (which is of course my way ;) ).
              >
              > The morale of this brings me back to your statement that "I treat others
              > as if they were the same"
              > I think this kind of an approach is common enough. But I have learned
              > that its usually not the case
              > Most people are not like each other.
              > And its usually better to understand that they are different and
              > therefore will expect different treatment.
              >
              > And BTW I actually have my wife to thank for teaching me this very
              > important lesson.
              >
              > Lior
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > -----Original Message-----
              > From: Ron Jeffries [mailto:ronjeffries@...]
              > Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2004 1:30 PM
              > To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
              > Subject: Re: [XP] Information, Propaganda; Influence, Manipulation.
              >
              > On Tuesday, August 31, 2004, at 3:10:28 AM, Lior Fridman wrote:
              >
              > > Ron Jeffries wrote
              > >> I'm passionate about what I believe, and at the same time, I think,
              > >> open to learning new things, even things that contradict what I
              > >> believe. I treat others as if they were the same, and consider it a
              > >> compliment to make that assumption.
              >
              > > Well said and I agree with all my heart.
              > > However always keep in mind that not everyone is like that/ can accept
              >
              > > this approach I recently forgot it and surprise surprise it just blew
              > > up in my face
              >
              > Would it be useful for us to hear the story at this time?
              >
              > Ron Jeffries
              > www.XProgramming.com
              > Fatalism is born of the fear of failure, for we all believe that we
              > carry success in our own hands, and we suspect that our hands are weak.
              > -- Conrad
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
              >
              > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
              > extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
              >
              > ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.com
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > The information contained in this message is proprietary of Amdocs,
              > protected from disclosure, and may be privileged.
              > The information is intended to be conveyed only to the designated
              recipient(s)
              > of the message. If the reader of this message is not the intended
              recipient,
              > you are hereby notified that any dissemination, use, distribution or
              copying of
              > this communication is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful.
              > If you have received this communication in error, please notify us
              immediately
              > by replying to the message and deleting it from your computer.
              > Thank you.
              >
              >
              > To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
              >
              > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
              extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
              >
              > ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.com
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              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
            • Victor
              ... Because of the Nazi, Al-Qaeda, Taliban, Sudan, Rwanda, Abu Ghareb, the Inquisition, and many other sad aspects of the human experience, I would change the
              Message 6 of 13 , Sep 1, 2004
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                > 1. I believe that everyone is just as "good" a person as everyone else.

                Because of the Nazi, Al-Qaeda, Taliban, Sudan, Rwanda, Abu Ghareb, the
                Inquisition, and many other sad aspects of the human experience, I would
                change the above statement to something like:

                As a first approximation to a working assumption, I accept the possibility
                that initially everybody has the potential of being as "good" a person as
                everyone else.

                Victor

                ========================================

                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "Ron Jeffries" <ronjeffries@...>
                To: <extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2004 5:25 AM
                Subject: Re: [XP] Information, Propaganda; Influence, Manipulation.


                > On Wednesday, September 1, 2004, at 1:48:03 AM, Brad Appleton wrote:
                >
                > > On Mon, Aug 30, 2004 at 10:22:31PM -0400, Ron Jeffries wrote:
                > >> I'm passionate about what I believe, and at the same
                > >> time, I think, open to learning new things, even things
                > >> that contradict what I believe.
                > > [...]
                > >> I'm in this to influence people, and I feel confident
                > >> that that's written all over me. Sometimes I do
                > >> it surprisingly well, sometimes I do it incredibly
                > >> poorly. Always I do it from my heart. I say what I
                > >> believe. The listener gets to decide what to do with it.
                >
                > > Your description above seem to describe what I and others
                > > might call an "Evangelist". Would you agree with that
                > > characterization?
                >
                > In the sense which I believe was originated by Apple, yes. In the more
                > religious sense of the term, the association is probably odious to all
                > those who prefer to keep their software and their theology separate.
                >
                > But yes. I suppose I am.
                >
                > >> There are those who hear propaganda if our material is
                > >> well organized, who feel manipulated if approached with
                > >> passion and fervor. That doesn't make it true.
                >
                > > I think there are also those who see passonate advocacy
                > > or evangelism and label it preaching/preachy. Some (even
                > > some who aren't already in "the choir") like being preached
                > > to. Others don't mind. Still others do mind - feeling as if
                > > are being judged or invalidated simply because some things
                > > they thought they knew were challenged/invalidated.
                >
                > Yes, I've noticed that. Any given "speaker" can only reach some subset of
                > the audience. One would like to reach as many as possible, of course, but
                > any given style or approach will get some, miss others.
                >
                > Quite possibly I have one or more inferior styles. I have to live with
                > that, though I'm not satisfied with it, and I do always try to improve.
                >
                > > Agility has been described by some as more of a mind-set
                > > than anything else - one that has a particular set of values
                > > and beliefs. Some see/hear values&beliefs and think "culture"
                > > and "norms". Others see/hear the same thing and think "religion"
                > > and "faith". Thus, one person's evangelist is another person's
                > > "zealot" or fanatic. To some "try it and see" is a statement
                > > that is empowering and non-imposing. Others regard the same
                > > statement as an indication that "faith" is required - and
                > > it is faith predicated upon values&beleifs that do not (yet?)
                > > hold. Others would call it trust - but some would still call it
                > > faith, and therefore associate it with religion/cult.
                >
                > Yes. Mostly I just try to explain things as well as I can, adapting to the
                > situation, and I try not to take things too personally. Often that works.
                >
                > >> I treat others as if they were the same, and consider
                > >> it a compliment to make that assumption.
                >
                > > I have made that same mistake many times. Sometimes even
                > > when they are the same - they still don't consider it a
                > > compliment (at least not from me :-)
                >
                > 1. I believe that everyone is just as "good" a person as everyone else.
                >
                > 2. I believe that there is value in ideas, and in the conflict of ideas.
                >
                > 3. I believe that change is hard, and that there are many ways to lead us
                > horses to water.
                >
                > I wish that in my "work", number 1 was more obvious. It remains true,
                > whether or not obvious.
                >
                > Ron Jeffries
                > www.XProgramming.com
                > Ron Jeffries, speaking for Boskone ... Out.
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
                >
                > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
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                >
                >
                >
                >
              • Victor
                ... Actually, different doesn t necessarily mean that one is weaker than the other. Similarly to the fact that in intergalactic space there is no up or
                Message 7 of 13 , Sep 1, 2004
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                  > > And its usually better to understand that they are different and
                  > > therefore will expect different treatment.
                  >
                  > Yes. And yet, we only know what people do, not what they think. Is it
                  > perhaps even more insulting to tone down our style for the weak and
                  > not-so-fleet of tongue?

                  Actually, "different" doesn't necessarily mean that one is weaker than the
                  other. Similarly to the fact that in intergalactic space there is no up or
                  down, just different dimensions, many of which may appear to be isotropic at
                  first glance, thinking unidimensionaly (weak-strong) tends to limit our
                  understanding of the environment in which we live. This affects the way we
                  communicate, and our potential for success.

                  On the other hand, overanalyzing can also be a debilitating influence. So,
                  the art is in finding the right balance. Interestingly enough, what makes
                  XP such a powerful methodology is the fact that it gives a practical way to
                  approach such a balance: Cooperate, keep it simple, refactor, work
                  iteratively, test.

                  Victor



                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: "Ron Jeffries" <ronjeffries@...>
                  To: <extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2004 5:39 AM
                  Subject: Re: [XP] Information, Propaganda; Influence, Manipulation.


                  > Thanks for sharing ...
                  >
                  > On Wednesday, September 1, 2004, at 1:57:59 AM, Lior Fridman wrote:
                  >
                  > > The amazing is that since the whole thing blew up my Boss keeps asking
                  > > me why the hell do you take it so personally.
                  > > Its just a job there is no use to get upset about it.
                  > > And basically he is right but I that's the way I am. I care for the
                  > > things I do and it is important to me that they will be done the right
                  > > way (which is of course my way ;) ).
                  >
                  > Yes. The alternative to caring seems to be "not caring". What I've learned
                  > is that there's more than one way to influence things. Violence isn't the
                  > /only/ answer. :)
                  >
                  > And yet, there's this "manipulation" thread going around. If one got
                  really
                  > nimble at presenting one's ideas in the best way to influence others, one
                  > might be thought to be even more evil.
                  >
                  > It's a puzzlement.
                  >
                  > > The morale of this brings me back to your statement that "I treat others
                  > > as if they were the same"
                  > > I think this kind of an approach is common enough. But I have learned
                  > > that its usually not the case
                  > > Most people are not like each other.
                  > > And its usually better to understand that they are different and
                  > > therefore will expect different treatment.
                  >
                  > Yes. And yet, we only know what people do, not what they think. Is it
                  > perhaps even more insulting to tone down our style for the weak and
                  > not-so-fleet of tongue?
                  >
                  > I do try not to make it personal. I try to edit "you" out of my
                  > conversation. But relent? There's a move in taiji: Apparent Fall Back.
                  > That's about where I'm at.
                  >
                  > Ron Jeffries
                  > www.XProgramming.com
                  > The Great and Powerful Oz has spoken.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
                  >
                  > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                  extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
                  >
                  > ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.com
                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                • Lior Fridman
                  Ron hi,Its not matter of toning down one style. Its more of a culture thing. Where I came from the organization culture was to shout loud and if that didn t
                  Message 8 of 13 , Sep 1, 2004
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                    Ron hi,

                    Its not matter of toning down one style.
                    Its more of a culture thing. Where I came from the organization culture
                    was to shout loud
                    and if that didn't work than we just shouted louder.
                    No one got offended and since everyone cared everyone felt ok with this.

                    When I arrived to this new place people changed but I forgot and kept
                    doing the same
                    It's not that here people are "weaker" (well some yes but yet again most
                    are not) they just wasn't used to the shouting style.
                    Unfortonately the damage has been done and it will take a major effort
                    to fix it, but hey im trying.

                    As you said there are many method of trying to influence other people.
                    From my experience the one sure method of convincing someone is to lead
                    him all the way until he comes to the required conclusion himself. (and
                    its best that he doesn't catch on what you are doing otherwise as you
                    said you will be considered evil)

                    Its just that each one respond differntly to each method
                    And as a rule its not wise to assume that the one that is most affective
                    on you is also effective on others.
                    It can be a sure way of ticking people off.

                    And no I wont stop caring the moment I do that I know its time to look
                    for another job.

                    Lior


                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: Ron Jeffries [mailto:ronjeffries@...]
                    Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2004 12:39 PM
                    To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [XP] Information, Propaganda; Influence, Manipulation.

                    Thanks for sharing ...

                    On Wednesday, September 1, 2004, at 1:57:59 AM, Lior Fridman wrote:

                    > The amazing is that since the whole thing blew up my Boss keeps asking

                    > me why the hell do you take it so personally.
                    > Its just a job there is no use to get upset about it.
                    > And basically he is right but I that's the way I am. I care for the
                    > things I do and it is important to me that they will be done the right

                    > way (which is of course my way ;) ).

                    Yes. The alternative to caring seems to be "not caring". What I've
                    learned is that there's more than one way to influence things. Violence
                    isn't the /only/ answer. :)

                    And yet, there's this "manipulation" thread going around. If one got
                    really nimble at presenting one's ideas in the best way to influence
                    others, one might be thought to be even more evil.

                    It's a puzzlement.

                    > The morale of this brings me back to your statement that "I treat
                    > others as if they were the same"
                    > I think this kind of an approach is common enough. But I have learned

                    > that its usually not the case Most people are not like each other.
                    > And its usually better to understand that they are different and
                    > therefore will expect different treatment.

                    Yes. And yet, we only know what people do, not what they think. Is it
                    perhaps even more insulting to tone down our style for the weak and
                    not-so-fleet of tongue?

                    I do try not to make it personal. I try to edit "you" out of my
                    conversation. But relent? There's a move in taiji: Apparent Fall Back.
                    That's about where I'm at.

                    Ron Jeffries
                    www.XProgramming.com
                    The Great and Powerful Oz has spoken.




                    To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...

                    To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                    extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...

                    ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.com
                    Yahoo! Groups Links






                    The information contained in this message is proprietary of Amdocs,
                    protected from disclosure, and may be privileged.
                    The information is intended to be conveyed only to the designated recipient(s)
                    of the message. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient,
                    you are hereby notified that any dissemination, use, distribution or copying of
                    this communication is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful.
                    If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately
                    by replying to the message and deleting it from your computer.
                    Thank you.
                  • Ron Jeffries
                    ... I ve seen recent examples of that. Ron Jeffries www.XProgramming.com The rules are ways of thinking, not ways to avoid thinking.
                    Message 9 of 13 , Sep 1, 2004
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                      On Wednesday, September 1, 2004, at 7:31:32 AM, Victor wrote:

                      > On the other hand, overanalyzing can also be a debilitating influence.

                      I've seen recent examples of that.

                      Ron Jeffries
                      www.XProgramming.com
                      The rules are ways of thinking, not ways to avoid thinking.
                    • Ron Jeffries
                      ... It s a metaphor, people, a turn of phrase. I know you re not weak just because you can t hold your own in a reasonable conversation such as Lior and I are
                      Message 10 of 13 , Sep 1, 2004
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                        On Wednesday, September 1, 2004, at 7:43:52 AM, Lior Fridman wrote:

                        > Yes. And yet, we only know what people do, not what they think. Is it
                        > perhaps even more insulting to tone down our style for the weak and
                        > not-so-fleet of tongue?

                        It's a metaphor, people, a turn of phrase. I know you're not weak just
                        because you can't hold your own in a reasonable conversation such as Lior
                        and I are familiar with.

                        Differently strong, that's it.

                        Geeze, people are so sensitive.

                        Ron Jeffries
                        www.XProgramming.com
                        Do we learn more through cynicism, or through some other mental posture?
                      • Dale Emery
                        Hi Ron, ... The insult would be in making certain kinds of assumptions about the other person. Perhaps you could avoid that by asking the other person s
                        Message 11 of 13 , Sep 1, 2004
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                          Hi Ron,

                          > Yes. And yet, we only know what people do, not what they
                          > think. Is it perhaps even more insulting to tone down our
                          > style for the weak and not-so-fleet of tongue?

                          The insult would be in making certain kinds of assumptions about
                          the other person. Perhaps you could avoid that by asking the
                          other person's preferences for how you interact with them.

                          > I do try not to make it personal. I try to edit "you" out of
                          > my conversation.

                          Interesting. My approach is to make it more personal, such as by
                          speaking about myself and my experience in a personal way, or by
                          speaking to the person I'm speaking to in a more personal way.

                          I'm probably wildly inconsistent in using "you" to refer
                          specifically to one person I'm talking to and to refer to a
                          general "you."

                          I've come to have a bad reaction to the pronoun "one" in
                          reference to some general person. It feels too abstract and
                          impersonal to me. I drag in all kinds of stereotypical
                          associations with academia, including a feeling of being
                          pontificated at.

                          Dale

                          --
                          Dale Emery, Consultant
                          Collaborative Leadership for Software People
                          Web: http://www.dhemery.com
                          Weblog: http://www.dhemery.com/cwd

                          Whenever two people meet, there are really six people present.
                          There is each man as he sees himself, each man as the other
                          person sees him, and each man as he really is. --William James
                        • Kent Beck
                          ... If you are trying to make up their minds for them, you *are* evil. Acting the best way you know how and looking for receptive moments to share that (as
                          Message 12 of 13 , Sep 2, 2004
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                            > -----Original Message-----
                            > From: Lior Fridman [mailto:lior.fridman@...]
                            > Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2004 4:44 AM
                            > To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
                            > Subject: RE: [XP] Information, Propaganda; Influence, Manipulation.
                            >
                            > As you said there are many method of trying to influence other people.

                            > From my experience the one sure method of convincing someone is to
                            > lead him all the way until he comes to the required conclusion
                            > himself. (and its best that he doesn't catch on what you are doing
                            > otherwise as you said you will be considered evil)

                            If you are trying to make up their minds for them, you *are* evil.
                            Acting the best way you know how and looking for receptive moments to
                            share that (as well as looking for your own receptive moments to listen
                            someone else's perspective) works, and remains respectful of the other
                            person.

                            Kent Beck
                            Three Rivers Institute
                          • Kent Beck
                            ... Saying weak/strong is judgemental--strong is good, weak is bad. If someone doesn t feel like shouting you down, that doesn t mean they are weak. Maybe they
                            Message 13 of 13 , Sep 2, 2004
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                              > -----Original Message-----
                              > From: Ron Jeffries [mailto:ronjeffries@...]
                              > Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2004 4:52 AM
                              > To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
                              > Subject: Re: [XP] Information, Propaganda; Influence, Manipulation.
                              >
                              >
                              > On Wednesday, September 1, 2004, at 7:43:52 AM, Lior Fridman wrote:
                              >
                              > > Yes. And yet, we only know what people do, not what they
                              > think. Is it
                              > > perhaps even more insulting to tone down our style for the weak and
                              > > not-so-fleet of tongue?
                              >
                              > It's a metaphor, people, a turn of phrase. I know you're not weak just

                              > because you can't hold your own in a reasonable conversation such as
                              > Lior and I are familiar with.
                              >
                              > Differently strong, that's it.
                              >
                              > Geeze, people are so sensitive.

                              Saying weak/strong is judgemental--strong is good, weak is bad. If
                              someone doesn't feel like shouting you down, that doesn't mean they are
                              weak. Maybe they have better things to do with their time. In the
                              meantime, you've missed a chance to connect with them by insisting on
                              seeing your intimidating behavior as strong.

                              Kent Beck
                              Three Rivers Institute
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