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Re: [XP] looking for a phrase ...

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  • David Putman
    ... There s always Norm Kerth s prime directive. Regardless of what we discover, we must understand and truly believe that everyone did the best job he or she
    Message 1 of 18 , Aug 10, 2004
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      > What's the phrase I'm looking for? It means making the assumption that the
      > other parties in a discussion / negotiation / whatever are acting in good
      > faith and good will even if we don't see it.
      >
      > Some "Weinbergian" thing perhaps. I know it's out there but can't put my
      > finger on it.

      There's always Norm Kerth's prime directive.
      "Regardless of what we discover, we must understand and truly believe that
      everyone did the best job he or she could, given what was known at the time,
      his or her skills and abilities, the resources available, and the situation
      at hand. "

      Which I seem to remember being espoused by Deming in his quality management
      principles
    • Christophe Thibaut
      ... maybe Weinberg s Helpful Model ? No matter how it looks, everyone is trying to be helpful. (Quality Software Management vol.1 p 154) Regards, Christophe
      Message 2 of 18 , Aug 10, 2004
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        Ron Jeffries a écrit:

        >What's the phrase I'm looking for? It means making the assumption that the
        >other parties in a discussion / negotiation / whatever are acting in good
        >faith and good will even if we don't see it.
        >
        >Some "Weinbergian" thing perhaps. I know it's out there but can't put my
        >finger on it.
        >
        >Thanks,
        >
        >
        maybe Weinberg's Helpful Model ?
        No matter how it looks, everyone is trying to be helpful.
        (Quality Software Management vol.1 p 154)
        Regards,
        Christophe
      • Randy MacDonald
        Mutually assumed honour? I think the term needs to be invented if it is to be said. Ron, do you believe there s a pre-existing phrase out there? ... From: Ron
        Message 3 of 18 , Aug 10, 2004
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          Mutually assumed honour?

          I think the term needs to be invented if it is to be said. Ron, do you
          believe there's a pre-existing phrase out there?

          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "Ron Jeffries" <ronjeffries@...>
          To: "extremeprogramming" <extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2004 4:52 AM
          Subject: [XP] looking for a phrase ...


          > What's the phrase I'm looking for? It means making the assumption that the
          > other parties in a discussion / negotiation / whatever are acting in good
          > faith and good will even if we don't see it.
          >
          > Some "Weinbergian" thing perhaps. I know it's out there but can't put my
          > finger on it.
          >
          > Thanks,
          >
          > Ron Jeffries
          > www.XProgramming.com
          > Here is Edward Bear, coming downstairs now, bump, bump, bump, on the back
          > of his head. It is, as far as he knows, the only way of coming downstairs,
          > but sometimes he feels that there really is another way, if only he could
          > stop bumping for a moment and think of it. And then he feels that perhaps
          > there isn't. -- A. A. Milne
          >
          >
          >
          >
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        • Ron Jeffries
          ... This may well be it. My ear says there s something more poetic out there, but this meets too many of the criteria to be discounted. Thanks! Ron Jeffries
          Message 4 of 18 , Aug 10, 2004
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            On Tuesday, August 10, 2004, at 3:55:26 PM, Christophe Thibaut wrote:

            > Ron Jeffries a écrit:

            >>What's the phrase I'm looking for? It means making the assumption that the
            >>other parties in a discussion / negotiation / whatever are acting in good
            >>faith and good will even if we don't see it.
            >>
            >>Some "Weinbergian" thing perhaps. I know it's out there but can't put my
            >>finger on it.
            >>
            >>Thanks,
            >>
            >>
            > maybe Weinberg's Helpful Model ?
            > No matter how it looks, everyone is trying to be helpful.
            > (Quality Software Management vol.1 p 154)

            This may well be it. My ear says there's something more poetic out there,
            but this meets too many of the criteria to be discounted.

            Thanks!

            Ron Jeffries
            www.XProgramming.com
            The opinions expressed here /are/ necessarily those of XProgramming.com.
            But I might change my mind.
          • Dale Emery
            Hi Ron, ... Something I touched on before, but didn t say directly, is the Satirian phrase: Every behavior has a positive intention. Dale -- Dale Emery,
            Message 5 of 18 , Aug 10, 2004
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              Hi Ron,

              >> maybe Weinberg's Helpful Model ? No matter how it looks,
              >> everyone is trying to be helpful. (Quality Software
              >> Management vol.1 p 154)
              >
              > This may well be it. My ear says there's something more poetic
              > out there, but this meets too many of the criteria to be
              > discounted.

              Something I touched on before, but didn't say directly, is the
              Satirian phrase: Every behavior has a positive intention.

              Dale

              --
              Dale Emery, Consultant
              Collaborative Leadership for Software People
              Web: http://www.dhemery.com
              Weblog: http://www.dhemery.com/cwd

              A gentleman never heard the story before. --Noel Coward
            • Perryn Fowler
              ... ... http://www.ukpoliticsmisc.org.uk/usenet_evidence/argument.html#5.%20The%20Principle%20of%20Charity NOTICE This e-mail and any attachments are
              Message 6 of 18 , Aug 10, 2004
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                >>> Ray Hyman's Charity Principle?

                <snip>

                >> This is right on target, except for the paranormal part. I didn't know >> you
                >> were going to say that. :)

                >I'm sure I've seen it phrased as a more succinct set of bullet points
                >somewhere - but Google has let me down :)

                http://www.ukpoliticsmisc.org.uk/usenet_evidence/argument.html#5.%20The%20Principle%20of%20Charity


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              • Victor
                I don t know if this will satisfy you, but this is my approach: Assume good faith, guardedly. Regrettably, the guardedly part is important. Communities where
                Message 7 of 18 , Aug 11, 2004
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                  I don't know if this will satisfy you, but this is my approach:

                  Assume good faith, guardedly.

                  Regrettably, the guardedly part is important. Communities where the
                  assumption of good faith towards their own members is the standard, are also
                  the most vulnerable to the occasional insider that rips others off their
                  life savings.

                  How do you handle this?

                  First, it's important to accept that doesn't matter how many precautions you
                  take, you may still be the victim of a rip-off. If that happens, learn your
                  lesson and keep living your life.

                  Second, perpetrators tend to broadcast warning signals. Be aware of what
                  they are, and if you start sensing them, change your mode from assuming good
                  faith to being suspicious.

                  When reading signals, be aware of false positives and false negatives. You
                  want to maximize both your sensitivity and your specificity. High
                  sensitivity means that you minimize the number of false negatives, and high
                  specificity means that you minimize the number of false positives.

                  This analysis is valuable, because depending on the circumstances, signal
                  misdiagnosis may be quite costly, either to you, or to other people.

                  Victor

                  P.S. Even though I am responding to a question from Ron J., my writing is
                  not personal. The use of the word "you" is generic.



                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: "Ron Jeffries" <ronjeffries@...>
                  To: <extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2004 10:49 PM
                  Subject: Re: [XP] looking for a phrase ...


                  > On Tuesday, August 10, 2004, at 9:13:21 PM, Doug Swartz wrote:
                  >
                  > > Tuesday, August 10, 2004, 3:52:30 AM, Ron Jeffries wrote:
                  >
                  > >> What's the phrase I'm looking for? It means making the assumption that
                  the
                  > >> other parties in a discussion / negotiation / whatever are acting in
                  good
                  > >> faith and good will even if we don't see it.
                  >
                  > > Our team blueprint says: "We believe everyone we meet wants to
                  > > do a good job.
                  >
                  > > Whether I believe they are doing the right thing, or not. I
                  > > can believe they are trying to do the thing they believe is
                  > > right.
                  >
                  > I believe that as well. It's not the phrase that fits the hole in my mind,
                  > though. Thanks!
                  >
                  > Ron Jeffries
                  > www.XProgramming.com
                  > We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we
                  created them.
                  > -- Albert Einstein
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
                  >
                  > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                  extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
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                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                • Steven Gordon
                  Sounds like Kissinger s trust, but verify . ... From: Victor [mailto:vmgoldberg@earthlink.net] Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2004 10:05 AM To:
                  Message 8 of 18 , Aug 11, 2004
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                    Sounds like Kissinger's "trust, but verify".

                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: Victor [mailto:vmgoldberg@...]
                    Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2004 10:05 AM
                    To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [XP] looking for a phrase ...


                    I don't know if this will satisfy you, but this is my approach:

                    Assume good faith, guardedly.

                    Regrettably, the guardedly part is important. Communities where the
                    assumption of good faith towards their own members is the standard, are also
                    the most vulnerable to the occasional insider that rips others off their
                    life savings.

                    How do you handle this?

                    First, it's important to accept that doesn't matter how many precautions you
                    take, you may still be the victim of a rip-off. If that happens, learn your
                    lesson and keep living your life.

                    Second, perpetrators tend to broadcast warning signals. Be aware of what
                    they are, and if you start sensing them, change your mode from assuming good
                    faith to being suspicious.

                    When reading signals, be aware of false positives and false negatives. You
                    want to maximize both your sensitivity and your specificity. High
                    sensitivity means that you minimize the number of false negatives, and high
                    specificity means that you minimize the number of false positives.

                    This analysis is valuable, because depending on the circumstances, signal
                    misdiagnosis may be quite costly, either to you, or to other people.

                    Victor

                    P.S. Even though I am responding to a question from Ron J., my writing is
                    not personal. The use of the word "you" is generic.



                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: "Ron Jeffries" <ronjeffries@...>
                    To: <extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2004 10:49 PM
                    Subject: Re: [XP] looking for a phrase ...


                    > On Tuesday, August 10, 2004, at 9:13:21 PM, Doug Swartz wrote:
                    >
                    > > Tuesday, August 10, 2004, 3:52:30 AM, Ron Jeffries wrote:
                    >
                    > >> What's the phrase I'm looking for? It means making the assumption that
                    the
                    > >> other parties in a discussion / negotiation / whatever are acting in
                    good
                    > >> faith and good will even if we don't see it.
                    >
                    > > Our team blueprint says: "We believe everyone we meet wants to
                    > > do a good job.
                    >
                    > > Whether I believe they are doing the right thing, or not. I
                    > > can believe they are trying to do the thing they believe is
                    > > right.
                    >
                    > I believe that as well. It's not the phrase that fits the hole in my mind,
                    > though. Thanks!
                    >
                    > Ron Jeffries
                    > www.XProgramming.com
                    > We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we
                    created them.
                    > -- Albert Einstein
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
                    >
                    > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                    extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
                    >
                    > ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.com
                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                  • George Dinwiddie
                    ... That s another way of putting the old saying trust, but verify, made famous by Ronald Reagon but also credited as being an old Russian proverb.
                    Message 9 of 18 , Aug 11, 2004
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                      On Wed, Aug 11, 2004 at 01:05:12PM -0400, Victor wrote:
                      > I don't know if this will satisfy you, but this is my approach:
                      >
                      > Assume good faith, guardedly.

                      That's another way of putting the old saying "trust, but verify," made
                      famous by Ronald Reagon but also credited as being an old Russian
                      proverb.
                    • Phlip
                      ... Good luck trying to apply that one to Kissinger. ;-) ===== Phlip http://industrialxp.org/community/bin/view/Main/TestFirstUserInterfaces
                      Message 10 of 18 , Aug 11, 2004
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                        Steven Gordon wrote:

                        > Sounds like Kissinger's "trust, but verify".

                        Good luck trying to apply that one to Kissinger. ;-)

                        =====
                        Phlip
                        http://industrialxp.org/community/bin/view/Main/TestFirstUserInterfaces



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                      • Steven Gordon
                        oops ... From: Phlip [mailto:phlipcpp@yahoo.com] Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2004 10:30 AM To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [XP] [OT]
                        Message 11 of 18 , Aug 11, 2004
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                          oops

                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: Phlip [mailto:phlipcpp@...]
                          Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2004 10:30 AM
                          To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: RE: [XP] [OT] looking for a phrase ...


                          Steven Gordon wrote:

                          > Sounds like Kissinger's "trust, but verify".

                          Good luck trying to apply that one to Kissinger. ;-)

                          =====
                          Phlip
                          http://industrialxp.org/community/bin/view/Main/TestFirstUserInterfaces



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                        • Victor
                          ... That s quite close, but there is a meaningful difference. In trust, but verify , the responsibility of the trusting person is to verify, which is resource
                          Message 12 of 18 , Aug 11, 2004
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                            > > Assume good faith, guardedly.
                            >
                            > That's another way of putting the old saying "trust, but verify," made
                            > famous by Ronald Reagon but also credited as being an old Russian
                            > proverb.

                            That's quite close, but there is a meaningful difference.

                            In "trust, but verify", the responsibility of the trusting person is to
                            verify, which is resource consuming and can be quite invasive for the other
                            party. That's valid under certain circumstances, like at the beginning of a
                            significant relationship.

                            For a steady relationship or a relationship that's not very involved,
                            "assume good faith, guardedly", is more relaxed and probably more empowering
                            and therefore more effective.

                            Sometimes the difference depends on the timeline and the evolution of the
                            relationship. If there is enough time, "assume good faith, guardedly" may
                            render results comparable to "trust, but verify", without being all that
                            invasive. In these cases, the transition to a more involved relationship
                            maybe less perceptible.

                            Victor

                            P.S. Please, note: "relationship" is used here in general terms. It could
                            be between nations, business, individuals, or any combination thereof.


                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: "George Dinwiddie" <programminglists@...>
                            To: <extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com>
                            Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2004 1:30 PM
                            Subject: Re: [XP] looking for a phrase ...


                            > On Wed, Aug 11, 2004 at 01:05:12PM -0400, Victor wrote:
                            > > I don't know if this will satisfy you, but this is my approach:
                            > >
                            > > Assume good faith, guardedly.
                            >
                            > That's another way of putting the old saying "trust, but verify," made
                            > famous by Ronald Reagon but also credited as being an old Russian
                            > proverb.
                            >
                            >
                            > To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
                            >
                            > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                            extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
                            >
                            > ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.com
                            > Yahoo! Groups Links
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                          • Victor
                            Hi Ron, Even though I believe you are expressing yourself in good faith, I believe there is a flaw in the statement. :-) ... the ... good ... By phrasing it
                            Message 13 of 18 , Aug 12, 2004
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                              Hi Ron,

                              Even though I believe you are expressing yourself in good faith, I believe
                              there is a flaw in the statement. :-)

                              > >> What's the phrase I'm looking for? It means making the assumption that
                              the
                              > >> other parties in a discussion / negotiation / whatever are acting in
                              good
                              > >> faith and good will even if we don't see it.

                              By phrasing it this way, we put ourselves a as being outside the equation,
                              or as "supreme judges of others", I am exaggerating, obviously; just to
                              make the statement clear. Part of the problem may be within ourselves.

                              My phrase would be :

                              "Think of miscommunication first."

                              Victor



                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: "Ron Jeffries" <ronjeffries@...>
                              To: <extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com>
                              Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2004 10:49 PM
                              Subject: Re: [XP] looking for a phrase ...


                              > On Tuesday, August 10, 2004, at 9:13:21 PM, Doug Swartz wrote:
                              >
                              > > Tuesday, August 10, 2004, 3:52:30 AM, Ron Jeffries wrote:
                              >
                              > >> What's the phrase I'm looking for? It means making the assumption that
                              the
                              > >> other parties in a discussion / negotiation / whatever are acting in
                              good
                              > >> faith and good will even if we don't see it.
                              >
                              > > Our team blueprint says: "We believe everyone we meet wants to
                              > > do a good job.
                              >
                              > > Whether I believe they are doing the right thing, or not. I
                              > > can believe they are trying to do the thing they believe is
                              > > right.
                              >
                              > I believe that as well. It's not the phrase that fits the hole in my mind,
                              > though. Thanks!
                              >
                              > Ron Jeffries
                              > www.XProgramming.com
                              > We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we
                              created them.
                              > -- Albert Einstein
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
                              >
                              > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                              extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
                              >
                              > ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.com
                              > Yahoo! Groups Links
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                            • Ron Jeffries
                              ... I m sure it s a marvelous phrase. However I m looking for a specific phrase that I have heard in common use. So far, people have hit the idea, but not
                              Message 14 of 18 , Aug 12, 2004
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                                On Thursday, August 12, 2004, at 6:18:00 PM, Victor wrote:

                                > Even though I believe you are expressing yourself in good faith, I believe
                                > there is a flaw in the statement. :-)

                                >> >> What's the phrase I'm looking for? It means making the assumption that
                                > the
                                >> >> other parties in a discussion / negotiation / whatever are acting in
                                > good
                                >> >> faith and good will even if we don't see it.

                                > By phrasing it this way, we put ourselves a as being outside the equation,
                                > or as "supreme judges of others", I am exaggerating, obviously; just to
                                > make the statement clear. Part of the problem may be within ourselves.

                                > My phrase would be :

                                > "Think of miscommunication first."

                                I'm sure it's a marvelous phrase. However I'm looking for a specific phrase
                                that I have heard in "common" use. So far, people have hit the idea, but
                                not the phrase that my brain thinks it recalls.

                                Ron Jeffries
                                www.XProgramming.com
                                I could be wrong, of course. It's just not the way to bet.
                              • Chris Wheeler
                                Could it be best intentions in mind ? That s the first thing that came to mind when you started this thread... Chris. ... C H R I S W H E E L E R Extreme
                                Message 15 of 18 , Aug 12, 2004
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                                  Could it be 'best intentions in mind' ?

                                  That's the first thing that came to mind when you
                                  started this thread...

                                  Chris.


                                  =====
                                  ---------------------------
                                  C H R I S W H E E L E R
                                  Extreme Programmer & Coach



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                                • Charlie Poole
                                  Hey Ron, ... It s Jeffries Razor, of course! Charlie
                                  Message 16 of 18 , Aug 13, 2004
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                                    Hey Ron,

                                    > I'm looking for a specific phrase
                                    > that I have heard in "common" use. So far, people have hit the idea, but
                                    > not the phrase that my brain thinks it recalls.

                                    It's Jeffries' Razor, of course!

                                    Charlie
                                  • Edmund Schweppe
                                    ... Is that anything like Chet s Fault? -- Edmund Schweppe -- schweppe@ieee.org -- http://schweppe.home.tiac.net The opinions expressed herein are at best
                                    Message 17 of 18 , Aug 13, 2004
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                                      Charlie Poole wrote:

                                      > It's Jeffries' Razor, of course!

                                      Is that anything like Chet's Fault?

                                      --
                                      Edmund Schweppe -- schweppe@... -- http://schweppe.home.tiac.net
                                      The opinions expressed herein are at best coincidentally related to
                                      those of any past, present or future employer.
                                    • Steven J. Owens
                                      ... It s probably not what Ron s looking or, but this reminds me of an old saying which I thought I read in one of Heinlein s novels (probably a Lazarus Long
                                      Message 18 of 18 , Sep 1, 2004
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                                        On Wed, Aug 11, 2004 at 01:30:14PM -0400, George Dinwiddie wrote:
                                        > On Wed, Aug 11, 2004 at 01:05:12PM -0400, Victor wrote:
                                        > > I don't know if this will satisfy you, but this is my approach:
                                        > >
                                        > > Assume good faith, guardedly.
                                        >
                                        > That's another way of putting the old saying "trust, but verify," made
                                        > famous by Ronald Reagon but also credited as being an old Russian
                                        > proverb.

                                        It's probably not what Ron's looking or, but this reminds me of
                                        an old saying which I thought I read in one of Heinlein's novels
                                        (probably a Lazarus Long quote) but google tells me is either Lola
                                        Montez or Finley Peter Dunn or even (in one case) Ronald Reagan:

                                        "Trust everybody, but always cut the cards."

                                        --
                                        Steven J. Owens
                                        puff@...

                                        "I'm going to make broad, sweeping generalizations and strong,
                                        declarative statements, because otherwise I'll be here all night and
                                        this document will be four times longer and much less fun to read.
                                        Take it all with a grain of salt." - me, at http://darksleep.com
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