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DSDM is Agile

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  • debracaldow
    There has been some debate on this forum regarding the way the DSDM business model works (licensing) and whether DSDM can be called agile. While we feel it
    Message 1 of 22 , Apr 28, 2004
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      There has been some debate on this forum regarding the way the DSDM
      business model works (licensing) and whether DSDM can be called
      agile.
      While we feel it would be inappropriate to discuss this issue in
      depth on an XP forum we also feel we have a right to defend ourselves
      particularly in respect to the incorrect statements suggesting that
      DSDM is not Agile. So anyone interested in reading our response to
      these issues and learning a bit more about how we actually work can
      refer to this article http://www.dsdm.org/agile.asp

      Naturally we welcome your feedback.

      Debra Caldow
      DSDM Consortium
    • William Pietri
      ... Please don t stop on my account. I think it s completely appropriate to discuss it here, and I d be very interested in your participation. Indeed, my
      Message 2 of 22 , Apr 28, 2004
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        On Wed, 2004-04-28 at 06:45, debracaldow wrote:
        > There has been some debate on this forum regarding the way the DSDM
        > business model works (licensing) and whether DSDM can be called
        > agile.
        > While we feel it would be inappropriate to discuss this issue in
        > depth on an XP forum [...]

        Please don't stop on my account. I think it's completely appropriate to
        discuss it here, and I'd be very interested in your participation.
        Indeed, my biggest qualm about your "EnterpriseXP" initiative was that
        I'd never heard of or from any of the people involved. Active
        participation here might make people more comfortable with your efforts.

        William

        ---
        http://scissor.com/
      • Phlip
        ... If I try to interest a team in coaching them to do eXtreme Programming, and they kick me out, can I interest them in DSDM, and then coach them into TDD and
        Message 3 of 22 , Apr 28, 2004
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          debracaldow wrote:


          > There has been some debate on this
          > forum regarding the way the DSDM
          > business model works (licensing)
          > and whether DSDM can be called
          > agile.

          > While we feel it would be inappropriate
          > to discuss this issue in
          > depth on an XP forum we also
          > feel we have a right to defend ourselves
          > particularly in respect to the incorrect
          > statements suggesting that
          > DSDM is not Agile. So anyone
          > interested in reading our response to
          > these issues and learning a bit more
          > about how we actually work can
          > refer to this article
          > http://www.dsdm.org/agile.asp
          >
          > Naturally we welcome your feedback.

          If I try to interest a team in coaching them to do
          eXtreme Programming, and they kick me out, can I
          interest them in DSDM, and then coach them into TDD
          and Frequent Releases?

          =====
          Phlip
          http://www.xpsd.org/cgi-bin/wiki?TestFirstUserInterfaces




          __________________________________
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        • Steven Gordon
          If DSDM is already agile, then why are you not proud enough of DSDM to call your latest variation something like Enterprise DSDM or DSDM++? Coopting the XP
          Message 4 of 22 , Apr 28, 2004
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            If DSDM is already agile, then why are you not proud enough of DSDM to call your latest variation something like Enterprise DSDM or DSDM++? Coopting the XP name demonstrates a lack of confidence in the value of DSDM in the market place.

            There has been much discussion here, yet I have not yet seen a direct response to the naming choice.

            -----Original Message-----
            From: debracaldow [mailto:debracaldow@...]
            Sent: Wed 4/28/2004 6:45 AM
            To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
            Cc:
            Subject: [XP] DSDM is Agile



            There has been some debate on this forum regarding the way the DSDM
            business model works (licensing) and whether DSDM can be called
            agile.
            While we feel it would be inappropriate to discuss this issue in
            depth on an XP forum we also feel we have a right to defend ourselves
            particularly in respect to the incorrect statements suggesting that
            DSDM is not Agile. So anyone interested in reading our response to
            these issues and learning a bit more about how we actually work can
            refer to this article http://www.dsdm.org/agile.asp

            Naturally we welcome your feedback.

            Debra Caldow
            DSDM Consortium



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          • Ron Jeffries
            ... Seems clear to me that they re going to do it. Our mission, should we decide to accept it, is to decide how to respond to this opportunity. Ron Jeffries
            Message 5 of 22 , Apr 28, 2004
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              On Wednesday, April 28, 2004, at 10:48:02 AM, Steven Gordon wrote:

              > If DSDM is already agile, then why are you not proud enough of DSDM to call your latest variation something
              > like Enterprise DSDM or DSDM++? Coopting the XP name demonstrates a lack of confidence in the value of DSDM
              > in the market place.

              > There has been much discussion here, yet I have not yet seen a direct response to the naming choice.

              Seems clear to me that they're going to do it. Our mission, should we
              decide to accept it, is to decide how to respond to this opportunity.

              Ron Jeffries
              www.XProgramming.com
              A firkin is 9 imperial gallons, or 40.905 liters, or
              81.81 half-liter cans, allowing for 5.8 cans per day over two weeks.
              Therefore, a firkin per fortnight is a six-pack per day.
            • Dale Emery
              Hi Debra (and Barry), ... The main tone I hear in the article is defensiveness. I think this distracts from your message that DSDM is Agile, and that the DSDM
              Message 6 of 22 , Apr 28, 2004
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                Hi Debra (and Barry),

                > While we feel it would be inappropriate to discuss this issue
                > in depth on an XP forum we also feel we have a right to defend
                > ourselves particularly in respect to the incorrect statements
                > suggesting that DSDM is not Agile.

                The main tone I hear in the article is defensiveness. I think
                this distracts from your message that DSDM is Agile, and that the
                DSDM Consortium is part of the Agile movement.

                From the article (as are all of my subsequent quotes):
                > DSDM also has fundamental principles (9 in total), which not
                > surprisingly are very similar to those of the Agile Manifesto.

                "Are very similar" is weak. Try switching to a verb: "support"
                or "embody" or "embrace" or some stronger verb.

                "Not surprisingly" distracts me. It sort of tickles me to wonder
                who is surprised, who is not, and why. But it doesn't tell me
                what makes this unsurprising. Is it unsurprising because the
                DSDM creators were deliberately designing DSDM to embody the
                Agile principles? Because your goals in developing DSDM were
                similar to the Agilist's goals? Consider dropping the "not
                surprisingly" and simply express the strength of the link between
                DSDM's principles and Agile's.

                > Despite these similarities, there remains a belief among many
                > that DSDM is not really part of the Agile movement. DSDM does
                > not operate in the same way as other Agile methods, most
                > notably eXtreme Programming, in that we have a
                > membership/licence model.

                You spend about half of the article defending your license model.
                That seems out of balance with the size of the reaction you got
                here about that issue.

                > As for our role in the Agile movement, we support the
                > dissemination of all the Agile approaches not just DSDM.
                > Events organised by the Consortium often include presentations
                > relevant to users of other methods such as XP, a recent
                > example being one on Retrospectives.

                This seems weak. "Support" how? Give a few specific examples.
                (Your one example is very abstract.)

                Do you promote Agile explicitly? Do you do that at every
                opportunity? Sometimes? Ever? Tell us about that.

                Do you engage your members and clients in conversations about
                Agile practices principles, how DSDM expresses the principles,
                and how that benefits DSDM users? Tell us about that.

                Finally (and this may be more important than the others): Do you
                spend time conferring with, and collaborating with, and simply
                talking to other Agilists? Do they know your names, and what you
                stand for? Do you know theirs? Tell us about that.

                I don't remember who sent the initial message about Enterprise
                XP, but I'm sure that that person got off on the wrong foot and
                never recovered. The sense I got from that message was, "XP is
                lacking. We want you to help us develop a proprietary version.
                And we want to do that in private. And we want you to do this
                for fame and money."

                I think you'll have better luck with a different approach. Tell
                us what your clients are wanting that you don't know how to give
                them with XP, and ask for help with that. Try some variations of
                DSDM+XP and let us know what happens. Do that in open
                conversation. And notice the abundance of help that people here
                offer freely, not for the money, but because they love this stuff.

                Dale

                --
                Dale Emery -- Consultant -- Resistance as a Resource
                Web: http://www.dhemery.com
                Weblog: http://www.dhemery.com/cwd (Conversations with Dale)

                That's not an optical illusion; it just looks like one. --Dale Emery
              • Jeff Grigg
                ... [I thought of this without reading the signature quote. Honest!] Two business men walk into a bar. The bar tender says, Enterprise XP. How many business
                Message 7 of 22 , Apr 28, 2004
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                  --- Ron Jeffries <jeffries@d...> wrote:
                  > Seems clear to me that they're going to do it. Our mission,
                  > should we decide to accept it, is to decide how to respond
                  > to this opportunity.
                  >
                  > Ron Jeffries
                  > www.XProgramming.com
                  > A firkin is 9 imperial gallons, or 40.905 liters, or
                  > 81.81 half-liter cans, allowing for 5.8 cans per day over two weeks.
                  > Therefore, a firkin per fortnight is a six-pack per day.

                  [I thought of this without reading the signature quote. Honest!]

                  Two business men walk into a bar.
                  The bar tender says, "Enterprise XP."

                  How many business people at the bar think he's talking about DSDM?

                  [The acronym "DSDM" was not mentioned at all, you see.]

                  _ _ _


                  Is DSDM agile?
                  Well, they say they are.
                  And I don't have any really good reason to believe that they are not.

                  Should DSDM, or some subsidiary or special interest group etc adopt
                  XP?
                  Heck yea; it's a great thing. ;->
                • masterpocor
                  ... direct response to the naming choice. Errr ... I have ! take a look on this group at message 91668 ... IMHO, I think the explanation is fair enough -
                  Message 8 of 22 , Apr 29, 2004
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                    > There has been much discussion here, yet I have not yet seen a
                    direct response to the naming choice.

                    Errr ... I have !
                    take a look on this group at message 91668 ...

                    IMHO, I think the explanation is fair enough - comments should have
                    been made (April Last year) when the 1st reference to EnterpriseXP
                    was made.
                  • Ron Jeffries
                    ... I m having some difficulty here. First of all, I m finding no references to EnterpriseXP from April 2003. I do find the first reference to //Industrial
                    Message 9 of 22 , Apr 29, 2004
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                      Around Thursday, April 29, 2004, 4:03:07 AM, masterpocor wrote:

                      >> There has been much discussion here, yet I have not yet seen a
                      > direct response to the naming choice.

                      > Errr ... I have !
                      > take a look on this group at message 91668 ...

                      > IMHO, I think the explanation is fair enough - comments should have
                      > been made (April Last year) when the 1st reference to EnterpriseXP
                      > was made.

                      I'm having some difficulty here.

                      First of all, I'm finding no references to EnterpriseXP from April 2003. I
                      do find the first reference to //Industrial XP//, on Friday April 25, at
                      2:18 AM. The first objection to creating a new brand came from me, at 3:59
                      AM. I apologize for the delay. A long discussion ensued.

                      But I see no reference to EnterpriseXP.

                      Second, the id masterpocor joined the group today, and the above is his or
                      her first posting. I'm curious who masterpocor is and what induced him or
                      her to join today and offer this tidbit. There is a general convention on
                      this group to identify oneself. That would be especially nice in this
                      instance.

                      Ron Jeffries
                      www.XProgramming.com
                      You don't want to sell me waterfall.
                      You want to go home and rethink your life.
                    • masterpocor
                      ... Ron. I have been around this group for -some- time and -am- a professional XP solution provider. I chose not to use my name for the same reason as
                      Message 10 of 22 , Apr 29, 2004
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                        > I'm curious who masterpocor is and what induced him or
                        > her to join today and offer this tidbit.
                        Ron.

                        I have been around this group for -some- time and -am- a professional
                        XP solution provider. I chose not to use my name for the same reason
                        as 'extremeworrier' ... plus I dont fancy a lynching at the XP Day in
                        Germany =/

                        > But I see no reference to EnterpriseXP.
                        Message Number 72516 ... refers to EnterpriseXP in April


                        Right ... got to get back to the sometimes dull (but important)
                        process of 'earning a living' ... bye.

                        [MP]
                      • Steven Gordon
                        There is no reference to EnterpriseXP in the entire year of 2003. Do you normally just repeat what someone else has said without checking the facts? We can
                        Message 11 of 22 , Apr 29, 2004
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                          There is no reference to EnterpriseXP in the entire year of 2003. Do you normally just repeat what someone else has said without checking the facts?

                          We can understand why one would choose a name that piggybacks on the success, reputation and community of XP. The question is why choose a name that disavows the role of DSDM.

                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: masterpocor [mailto:masterpocor@...]
                          Sent: Thu 4/29/2004 1:03 AM
                          To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
                          Cc:
                          Subject: Re: [XP] DSDM is Agile



                          > There has been much discussion here, yet I have not yet seen a
                          direct response to the naming choice.

                          Errr ... I have !
                          take a look on this group at message 91668 ...

                          IMHO, I think the explanation is fair enough - comments should have
                          been made (April Last year) when the 1st reference to EnterpriseXP
                          was made.






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                        • Ron Jeffries
                          ... So far there have been no lynchings at those conferences, although there was a mysterious large fire at one of them and a few people were never seen again.
                          Message 12 of 22 , Apr 29, 2004
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                            On Thursday, April 29, 2004, at 9:04:38 AM, masterpocor wrote:

                            >> I'm curious who masterpocor is and what induced him or
                            >> her to join today and offer this tidbit.
                            > Ron.

                            > I have been around this group for -some- time and -am- a professional
                            > XP solution provider. I chose not to use my name for the same reason
                            > as 'extremeworrier' ... plus I dont fancy a lynching at the XP Day in
                            > Germany =/

                            So far there have been no lynchings at those conferences, although there
                            was a mysterious large fire at one of them and a few people were never seen
                            again.

                            I remain uncomfortable with the anonymity thing, but at least please say
                            something really controversial so it'll make sense. Or not.

                            >> But I see no reference to EnterpriseXP.
                            > Message Number 72516 ... refers to EnterpriseXP in April

                            Ah, good, thanks. I still don't like the branding thing. I get that it
                            makes a certain kind of sense, I just have this streak of idealism that
                            won't die out.

                            > Right ... got to get back to the sometimes dull (but important)
                            > process of 'earning a living' ... bye.

                            See ya ...

                            Ron Jeffries
                            www.XProgramming.com
                            Mixed metaphors are a bright sunny day with no paddle. -- Phlip
                          • Laurent Bossavit
                            ... Hmm, I have checked the facts: http://jonaptcy.notlong.com/ I don t necessarily agree with the idea that it was announced in April 2003, and therefore
                            Message 13 of 22 , Apr 29, 2004
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                              > There is no reference to EnterpriseXP in the entire year of 2003. Do
                              > you normally just repeat what someone else has said without checking
                              > the facts?

                              Hmm, I have checked the facts:
                              http://jonaptcy.notlong.com/

                              I don't necessarily agree with the idea that "it was announced in
                              April 2003, and therefore your silence since then implies consent".
                              It does seem though that our anonymous co^H^H, er, poster (just
                              kidding, m'kay), has his or her facts right.

                              Still - there is a difference between annoucing a name (such as for
                              purposes of identification and subsequent discussion of a set of
                              ideas) and announcing the formation of an organized venture offering
                              for-pay (and apparently for-profit) services, apparently with the
                              intent of using the name to market the venture.

                              Cheers,

                              -[Laurent]-
                              Oh, Grep ! You haven't been pattern-matching _again_ ?
                            • Steven Gordon
                              The person claimed that EnterpriseXP was discussed here in April 2003 (since it supposedly has been around since 2002), not IndustrialXP. Also, IndustrialXP is
                              Message 14 of 22 , Apr 29, 2004
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                                The person claimed that EnterpriseXP was discussed here in April 2003 (since it supposedly has been around since 2002), not IndustrialXP.

                                Also, IndustrialXP is a extension/application of XP by a well-known practioneer of XP, not a extension/application of an entirely different methodlogy (DSDM) that usurps the XP name and reputation while not aknowledging its roots in DSDM in its own name. Entirely different situations. Furthermore, there was a lot of discussion on the name IndustrialXP at the time, and there was not general agreement that the name was good.

                                It is possible to oppose one and not the other. I, personally was and still am ambivalent about the IndustrialXP name, but I am totally offended by the name EnterpriseXP on principal. The more I have thought about it, the more offended I have become.

                                If the DSDM community really should be proud enough of DSDM to use it in the name of their own extensions/applications to their own methodologies.


                                -----Original Message-----
                                From: Laurent Bossavit [mailto:laurent@...]
                                Sent: Thu 4/29/2004 8:53 AM
                                To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
                                Cc:
                                Subject: RE: [XP] DSDM is Agile



                                > There is no reference to EnterpriseXP in the entire year of 2003. Do
                                > you normally just repeat what someone else has said without checking
                                > the facts?

                                Hmm, I have checked the facts:
                                http://jonaptcy.notlong.com/

                                I don't necessarily agree with the idea that "it was announced in
                                April 2003, and therefore your silence since then implies consent".
                                It does seem though that our anonymous co^H^H, er, poster (just
                                kidding, m'kay), has his or her facts right.

                                Still - there is a difference between annoucing a name (such as for
                                purposes of identification and subsequent discussion of a set of
                                ideas) and announcing the formation of an organized venture offering
                                for-pay (and apparently for-profit) services, apparently with the
                                intent of using the name to market the venture.

                                Cheers,

                                -[Laurent]-
                                Oh, Grep ! You haven't been pattern-matching _again_ ?




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                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Laurent Bossavit
                                ... Yes. In the posting at the URL I just gave, if you read all of it, Joshua justifies the name IndustrialXP by referring to EnterpriseXP. (Much as Barry
                                Message 15 of 22 , Apr 29, 2004
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                                  > The person claimed that EnterpriseXP was discussed here in April 2003
                                  > (since it supposedly has been around since 2002), not IndustrialXP.

                                  Yes. In the posting at the URL I just gave, if you read all of it,
                                  Joshua justifies the name IndustrialXP by referring to EnterpriseXP.
                                  (Much as Barry recently justified the name EnterpriseXP by reference
                                  to... IndustrialXP.)

                                  A later message (the only other message from April 2003 wherein a
                                  reference to EnterpriseXP appears) says that the *site* (not the
                                  concept) EnterpriseXP.org is "a portal to discuss the use of ANY
                                  agile approach in conjunction with XP with an aim of giving XP more
                                  commercial appeal". It also claimed that "DSDM 4.2 is not and never
                                  will be EnterpriseXP".

                                  I am only responding here to the factual aspects of this thread,
                                  since one of the messages in it was an accusation laid at the door of
                                  the anonymous poster that he or she was "repeat[ing] what someone
                                  else has said without checking the facts". That particular
                                  accusation is, I hope I've made clear, without grounds.

                                  Cheers,

                                  -[Laurent]-
                                  If a program is useless, it will have to be documented.
                                • Steven Gordon
                                  Sorry - I mistakenly used a faulty method: assuming that the Search Archive button at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/extremeprogramming/ would return
                                  Message 16 of 22 , Apr 29, 2004
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                                    Sorry - I mistakenly used a faulty method: assuming that the "Search Archive" button at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/extremeprogramming/ would return references correctly.

                                    And I do agree that not challenging this reference in an email does not constitute consent. Furthermore, many people did challenge the name IndustrialXP.

                                    -----Original Message-----
                                    From: Laurent Bossavit [mailto:laurent@...]
                                    Sent: Thursday, April 29, 2004 8:54 AM
                                    To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
                                    Subject: RE: [XP] DSDM is Agile


                                    > There is no reference to EnterpriseXP in the entire year of 2003. Do
                                    > you normally just repeat what someone else has said without checking
                                    > the facts?

                                    Hmm, I have checked the facts:
                                    http://jonaptcy.notlong.com/

                                    I don't necessarily agree with the idea that "it was announced in
                                    April 2003, and therefore your silence since then implies consent".
                                    It does seem though that our anonymous co^H^H, er, poster (just
                                    kidding, m'kay), has his or her facts right.

                                    Still - there is a difference between annoucing a name (such as for
                                    purposes of identification and subsequent discussion of a set of
                                    ideas) and announcing the formation of an organized venture offering
                                    for-pay (and apparently for-profit) services, apparently with the
                                    intent of using the name to market the venture.

                                    Cheers,

                                    -[Laurent]-
                                    Oh, Grep ! You haven't been pattern-matching _again_ ?




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                                  • rachelclairedavies
                                    Agreed. I would like to fill in some more background info because I feel that, as I provided advice on XP to the DSDM consortium for DSDM v4.2 in 2002/2003, I
                                    Message 17 of 22 , May 1 2:43 AM
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                                      Agreed.

                                      I would like to fill in some more background info because I feel
                                      that, as I provided advice on XP to the DSDM consortium for DSDM
                                      v4.2 in 2002/2003, I am implicated in the choice of Enterprise XP
                                      name. During this time I was bound by a non-disclosure agreement so
                                      I could not discuss freely on this list. At this time another XP
                                      advisor on DSDM v4.2, Sean Hanly, expressed within the review
                                      group "I personally am uncomfortable with EnterpriseXP tag and would
                                      prefer that we disassociate the 4.2 work and EnterpriseXP." I think
                                      this was the general view taken by all XP practitioners who worked
                                      on v4.2 but DSDM consortium went ahead with the name anyhow.
                                      To reiterate previous mails, I have used some DSDM techniques in
                                      conjuntion with XP and believe that we have things to learn from
                                      each other but do not like "EnterpriseXP" branding.

                                      Rachel Davies

                                      --- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com, Steven Gordon
                                      <sagordon@a...> wrote:
                                      > Sorry - I mistakenly used a faulty method: assuming that
                                      the "Search Archive" button at
                                      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/extremeprogramming/ would return
                                      references correctly.
                                      >
                                      > And I do agree that not challenging this reference in an email
                                      does not constitute consent. Furthermore, many people did challenge
                                      the name IndustrialXP.
                                    • Ron Jeffries
                                      ... Have any of the people who are actually behind EnterpriseXP ever done pure XP? I am wondering at least two things: how do they know it needs something,
                                      Message 18 of 22 , May 1 3:47 AM
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                                        On Saturday, May 1, 2004, at 5:43:26 AM, rachelclairedavies wrote:

                                        > I would like to fill in some more background info because I feel
                                        > that, as I provided advice on XP to the DSDM consortium for DSDM
                                        > v4.2 in 2002/2003, I am implicated in the choice of Enterprise XP
                                        > name. During this time I was bound by a non-disclosure agreement so
                                        > I could not discuss freely on this list. At this time another XP
                                        > advisor on DSDM v4.2, Sean Hanly, expressed within the review
                                        > group "I personally am uncomfortable with EnterpriseXP tag and would
                                        > prefer that we disassociate the 4.2 work and EnterpriseXP." I think
                                        > this was the general view taken by all XP practitioners who worked
                                        > on v4.2 but DSDM consortium went ahead with the name anyhow.
                                        > To reiterate previous mails, I have used some DSDM techniques in
                                        > conjuntion with XP and believe that we have things to learn from
                                        > each other but do not like "EnterpriseXP" branding.

                                        Have any of the people who are actually behind "EnterpriseXP" ever done
                                        "pure" XP? I am wondering at least two things: how do they know it needs
                                        something, and how are they qualified to advise on when and how to add
                                        things?

                                        Ron Jeffries
                                        www.XProgramming.com
                                        When all ideas of [XP] is and [XP] is not have been extinguished,
                                        then [XP] reality will manifest itself. -- Thich Nhat Hanh [Ron Jeffries]
                                      • Steven Gordon
                                        Using a non-disclosure agreement to inhibit communication would seem to be a first-order violation of the agile manifesto ( collaboration over contract
                                        Message 19 of 22 , May 1 6:47 AM
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                                          Using a non-disclosure agreement to inhibit communication would seem to be a first-order violation of the agile manifesto ("collaboration over contract negotiation"). Making methodologies proprietary is no way to facilitate learning from each other.


                                          On Saturday, May 1, 2004, at 5:43:26 AM, rachelclairedavies wrote:

                                          > I would like to fill in some more background info because I feel
                                          > that, as I provided advice on XP to the DSDM consortium for DSDM
                                          > v4.2 in 2002/2003, I am implicated in the choice of Enterprise XP
                                          > name. During this time I was bound by a non-disclosure agreement so
                                          > I could not discuss freely on this list. At this time another XP
                                          > advisor on DSDM v4.2, Sean Hanly, expressed within the review
                                          > group "I personally am uncomfortable with EnterpriseXP tag and would
                                          > prefer that we disassociate the 4.2 work and EnterpriseXP." I think
                                          > this was the general view taken by all XP practitioners who worked
                                          > on v4.2 but DSDM consortium went ahead with the name anyhow.
                                          > To reiterate previous mails, I have used some DSDM techniques in
                                          > conjuntion with XP and believe that we have things to learn from
                                          > each other but do not like "EnterpriseXP" branding.




                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        • rachelclairedavies
                                          This is hard to answer as the full list of names behind Enterprise XP is not in the public domain. To the best of my knowledge none of the DSDM consortium
                                          Message 20 of 22 , May 1 7:08 AM
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                                            This is hard to answer as the full list of names behind Enterprise
                                            XP is not in the public domain.
                                            To the best of my knowledge none of the DSDM consortium members that
                                            are behind the use of the "EnterpriseXP" name (Barry Fazackerly et
                                            al) have tried XP on a real project as software developers as they
                                            work more in the realm of project management.
                                            Rachel

                                            --- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com, Ron Jeffries
                                            <jeffries@d...> wrote:
                                            > Have any of the people who are actually behind "EnterpriseXP" ever
                                            done
                                            > "pure" XP? I am wondering at least two things: how do they know it
                                            needs
                                            > something, and how are they qualified to advise on when and how to
                                            add
                                            > things?
                                            >
                                            > Ron Jeffries
                                            > www.XProgramming.com
                                            > When all ideas of [XP] is and [XP] is not have been extinguished,
                                            > then [XP] reality will manifest itself. -- Thich Nhat Hanh [Ron
                                            Jeffries]
                                          • Jeff Grigg
                                            ... Well, as project managers I think they would have been in an excellent position to adopt XP as their project s approach. So if they have not managed XP
                                            Message 21 of 22 , May 1 9:04 AM
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                                              --- "rachelclairedavies" <rachel.davies@t...> wrote:
                                              > To the best of my knowledge none of the DSDM consortium
                                              > members that are behind the use of the "EnterpriseXP"
                                              > name (Barry Fazackerly et al) have tried XP on a real
                                              > project as software developers as they work more in the
                                              > realm of project management.

                                              Well, as project managers I think they would have been in an
                                              excellent position to adopt XP as their project's approach.

                                              So if they have not managed XP projects, how would they know what
                                              about XP was missing or unnecessary?
                                            • Chris Hanson
                                              ... What qualifies them then to work on the specifics of software development methodology? -- Chris -- Chris Hanson
                                              Message 22 of 22 , May 1 10:57 PM
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                                                On May 1, 2004, at 7:08 AM, rachelclairedavies wrote:
                                                > To the best of my knowledge none of the DSDM consortium members that
                                                > are behind the use of the "EnterpriseXP" name (Barry Fazackerly et
                                                > al) have tried XP on a real project as software developers as they
                                                > work more in the realm of project management.

                                                What qualifies them then to work on the specifics of software
                                                development methodology?

                                                -- Chris

                                                --
                                                Chris Hanson <cmh@...>
                                                http://www.livejournal.com/users/chanson/
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