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Re: [XP] XP Certification. What a waste...

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  • Christopher Hart
    All, Your mileage may very, but it has been my experience that only a handful of people I have met that claim certifications have the real-world talent to be
    Message 1 of 23 , Apr 18, 2004
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      All,

      Your mileage may very, but it has been my experience that only a handful of
      people I have met that claim certifications have the real-world talent to be
      top performers on a team. And the vast majority of top performers have no
      certifications at all. I use certifications as a red flag to eliminate
      people from the hiring process because the cert rarely translates into
      ability.

      Certification serve two purposes 1) to create revenues for the certifying
      body and 2) to provide warm fuzzies to people involved in the hiring process
      that lack the professional skills to evaluate the person in question.

      Do we as a community find either of these to be valuable? Does this help
      spread our message? Our practices? Do we want someone on our team who has
      the cert or who we spent 15 minutes pairing with? Do we care about the cert
      or whether this person practices TDD?

      Best Regards,

      Chris
    • Will Stott
      It s the team the matters, not the top performers. I ve often found top performers only work well when working with other lesser mortals. Why is that? Will
      Message 2 of 23 , Apr 18, 2004
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        It's the team the matters, not the top performers. I've often found 'top
        performers' only work well when working with other lesser mortals. Why is
        that?

        Will

        -----Original Message-----
        From: Christopher Hart [mailto:hart@...]
        Sent: 19 April 2004 00:27
        To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [XP] XP Certification. What a waste...

        All,

        Your mileage may very, but it has been my experience that only a handful of
        people I have met that claim certifications have the real-world talent to be
        top performers on a team. And the vast majority of top performers have no
        certifications at all. I use certifications as a red flag to eliminate
        people from the hiring process because the cert rarely translates into
        ability.

        Certification serve two purposes 1) to create revenues for the certifying
        body and 2) to provide warm fuzzies to people involved in the hiring process
        that lack the professional skills to evaluate the person in question.

        Do we as a community find either of these to be valuable? Does this help
        spread our message? Our practices? Do we want someone on our team who has
        the cert or who we spent 15 minutes pairing with? Do we care about the cert
        or whether this person practices TDD?

        Best Regards,

        Chris



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      • Andrew McDonagh
        ... In the UK, I feel there s a similar experience with Degrees. A person s Degree (even from the top universities) doesn t guarantee that they are actually
        Message 3 of 23 , Apr 19, 2004
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          > -----Original Message-----
          > From: Christopher Hart [mailto:hart@...]
          > Sent: 18 April 2004 23:27
          > To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
          > Subject: Re: [XP] XP Certification. What a waste...
          >
          >
          > All,
          >
          > Your mileage may very, but it has been my experience that only a
          > handful of
          > people I have met that claim certifications have the real-world
          > talent to be
          > top performers on a team. And the vast majority of top performers have no
          > certifications at all. I use certifications as a red flag to eliminate
          > people from the hiring process because the cert rarely translates into
          > ability.


          In the UK, I feel there's a similar experience with Degrees. A person's
          Degree (even from the top universities) doesn't guarantee that they are
          actually any good.

          I consider Degree's (my own included) as merely a means for fresh graduates
          to gain a foot hold into the industry. For fresh graduates, it does help
          'indicate' the person has some knowledge.

          However, some of the best developers I know do not have degrees and I've
          know people with first-class honours who weren't worth their salt.

          When interviewing I tend to ignore the degree and go by their work history.

          So, by this I'm with you, a piece of paper doesn't make the person, the
          person makes themselves.

          Andrew
        • Ron Jeffries
          ... I recall a top performer at a client shop, who was the manager s favorite programmer. He d take on anything, and always delivered, even though his tasks
          Message 4 of 23 , Apr 19, 2004
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            On Monday, April 19, 2004, at 1:14:10 AM, Will Stott wrote:

            > It's the team the matters, not the top performers. I've often found 'top
            > performers' only work well when working with other lesser mortals. Why is
            > that?

            I recall a "top performer" at a client shop, who was the manager's favorite
            programmer. He'd take on anything, and always delivered, even though his
            tasks were the most difficult.

            What everyone on the team knew was that the real hero was a quiet fellow
            over in the corner who never said much. All he did was fix all the bugs the
            "top performer" created as he slashed through the weeds.

            Ron Jeffries
            www.XProgramming.com
            Sigs are like I Ching or Tarot. They don't mean anything,
            but sometimes if you think about them you'll get a useful idea.
          • Christopher Hart
            Will, Teams of top performers can and do work well together. I would also argue that a top performer who can t work well within a team probably isn t the kind
            Message 5 of 23 , Apr 19, 2004
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              Will,

              Teams of top performers can and do work well together. I would also argue
              that a top performer who can't work well within a team probably isn't the
              kind of person you want on a team anyway.

              Best Regards,

              Chris

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "Will Stott" <will.stott@...>
              To: <extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Sunday, April 18, 2004 11:14 PM
              Subject: RE: [XP] XP Certification. What a waste...


              > It's the team the matters, not the top performers. I've often found 'top
              > performers' only work well when working with other lesser mortals. Why is
              > that?
              >
              > Will
              >
              > -----Original Message-----
              > From: Christopher Hart [mailto:hart@...]
              > Sent: 19 April 2004 00:27
              > To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
              > Subject: Re: [XP] XP Certification. What a waste...
              >
              > All,
              >
              > Your mileage may very, but it has been my experience that only a handful
              of
              > people I have met that claim certifications have the real-world talent to
              be
              > top performers on a team. And the vast majority of top performers have no
              > certifications at all. I use certifications as a red flag to eliminate
              > people from the hiring process because the cert rarely translates into
              > ability.
              >
              > Certification serve two purposes 1) to create revenues for the certifying
              > body and 2) to provide warm fuzzies to people involved in the hiring
              process
              > that lack the professional skills to evaluate the person in question.
              >
              > Do we as a community find either of these to be valuable? Does this help
              > spread our message? Our practices? Do we want someone on our team who has
              > the cert or who we spent 15 minutes pairing with? Do we care about the
              cert
              > or whether this person practices TDD?
              >
              > Best Regards,
              >
              > Chris
              >
              >
              >
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              >
              >
              >
              >
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            • David Putman
              ... is ... If you subscribe to the belief that everybody is doing the best they can with the available resources and recognise that the available resources
              Message 6 of 23 , Apr 19, 2004
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                Will Stott wrote:
                > > It's the team the matters, not the top performers. I've often found 'top
                > > performers' only work well when working with other lesser mortals. Why
                is
                > > that?

                If you subscribe to the belief that everybody is doing the best they can
                with the available resources and recognise that the available resources also
                include the rest of the team, the so-called 'top performers' are obviously
                getting something from the lesser mortals that the lesser mortals are not
                getting from them.

                Dave Putman
              • Daniel Schulken
                The way I see it (I may be wrong) would be to actually apply the knowledge by creating a small program over the course of a week. At least for that stand point
                Message 7 of 23 , Apr 19, 2004
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                  The way I see it (I may be wrong) would be to actually apply the knowledge
                  by creating a small program over the course of a week.
                  At least for that stand point you would have to know and apply all of the
                  knowledge with a partner to pass. However I would have to think that this
                  would not be to practical. So imo XP Certification will not happen anytime
                  soon on a individual level.
                  But who really has the time to get certified anyway :)


                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: "David Putman" <davidputman@...>
                  To: <extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Monday, April 19, 2004 7:06 AM
                  Subject: Re: [XP] XP Certification. What a waste...


                  > Will Stott wrote:
                  > > > It's the team the matters, not the top performers. I've often found
                  'top
                  > > > performers' only work well when working with other lesser mortals. Why
                  > is
                  > > > that?
                  >
                  > If you subscribe to the belief that everybody is doing the best they can
                  > with the available resources and recognise that the available resources
                  also
                  > include the rest of the team, the so-called 'top performers' are obviously
                  > getting something from the lesser mortals that the lesser mortals are not
                  > getting from them.
                  >
                  > Dave Putman
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
                  >
                  > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                  extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
                  >
                  > ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.com
                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                • Ron Jeffries
                  ... Yes, but if I don t subscribe to that belief, it could just be that the top performers are just better than the lessers. I actually DO subscribe to that
                  Message 8 of 23 , Apr 19, 2004
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                    On Monday, April 19, 2004, at 7:06:14 AM, David Putman wrote:

                    > Will Stott wrote:
                    >> > It's the team the matters, not the top performers. I've often found 'top
                    >> > performers' only work well when working with other lesser mortals. Why
                    > is
                    >> > that?

                    > If you subscribe to the belief that everybody is doing the best they can
                    > with the available resources and recognise that the available resources also
                    > include the rest of the team, the so-called 'top performers' are obviously
                    > getting something from the lesser mortals that the lesser mortals are not
                    > getting from them.

                    Yes, but if I don't subscribe to that belief, it could just be that the top
                    performers are just better than the lessers. I actually DO subscribe to
                    that belief.

                    Ron Jeffries
                    www.XProgramming.com
                    Keep away from people who try to belittle your ambitions. Small people
                    always do that, but the really great make you feel that you, too, can
                    become great." -- Mark Twain.
                  • Will Stott
                    So a team full of top performers won t operate as efficiently as a mixed ability team because there are no lesser mortals for them to feed from. Will ...
                    Message 9 of 23 , Apr 19, 2004
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                      So a team full of 'top performers' won't operate as efficiently as a mixed
                      ability team because there are no lesser mortals for them to feed from.

                      Will

                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: David Putman [mailto:davidputman@...]
                      Sent: 19 April 2004 13:06
                      To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: Re: [XP] XP Certification. What a waste...

                      Will Stott wrote:
                      > > It's the team the matters, not the top performers. I've often found 'top
                      > > performers' only work well when working with other lesser mortals. Why
                      is
                      > > that?

                      If you subscribe to the belief that everybody is doing the best they can
                      with the available resources and recognise that the available resources also
                      include the rest of the team, the so-called 'top performers' are obviously
                      getting something from the lesser mortals that the lesser mortals are not
                      getting from them.

                      Dave Putman



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                    • Will Stott
                      A friend of mine who works for an Investment Bank told me about one of his team who had remained an Associate Director (which I understand is very low in the
                      Message 10 of 23 , Apr 19, 2004
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                        A friend of mine who works for an Investment Bank told me about one of his
                        team who had remained an Associate Director (which I understand is very low
                        in the food chain) for ten years despite having 1st class degree from Oxford
                        and coming top in all the tests / evaluations that the company gave him. On
                        paper he was excellent, but in real-life he was just mediocre. Isn't this
                        the problem with many forms of certification?

                        BTW - my friend didn't follow-up my suggestion that his company should make
                        this guy sits all sorts of tests until they found one that he failed and
                        then use that to screen all future recruits ;-)

                        Will

                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: Andrew McDonagh [mailto:andrew.mcdonagh@...]
                        Sent: 19 April 2004 11:18
                        To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: RE: [XP] XP Certification. What a waste...




                        > -----Original Message-----
                        > From: Christopher Hart [mailto:hart@...]
                        > Sent: 18 April 2004 23:27
                        > To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
                        > Subject: Re: [XP] XP Certification. What a waste...
                        >
                        >
                        > All,
                        >
                        > Your mileage may very, but it has been my experience that only a
                        > handful of
                        > people I have met that claim certifications have the real-world
                        > talent to be
                        > top performers on a team. And the vast majority of top performers have no
                        > certifications at all. I use certifications as a red flag to eliminate
                        > people from the hiring process because the cert rarely translates into
                        > ability.


                        In the UK, I feel there's a similar experience with Degrees. A person's
                        Degree (even from the top universities) doesn't guarantee that they are
                        actually any good.

                        I consider Degree's (my own included) as merely a means for fresh graduates
                        to gain a foot hold into the industry. For fresh graduates, it does help
                        'indicate' the person has some knowledge.

                        However, some of the best developers I know do not have degrees and I've
                        know people with first-class honours who weren't worth their salt.

                        When interviewing I tend to ignore the degree and go by their work history.

                        So, by this I'm with you, a piece of paper doesn't make the person, the
                        person makes themselves.

                        Andrew



                        To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...

                        To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                        extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...

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                      • yahoogroups@jhrothjr.com
                        From: Will Stott Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2004 1:56 AM Subject: RE: [XP] XP Certification. What a
                        Message 11 of 23 , Apr 20, 2004
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                          From: "Will Stott" <will.stott.at.iee.org@...>
                          Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2004 1:56 AM
                          Subject: RE: [XP] XP Certification. What a waste...


                          > So a team full of 'top performers' won't operate as efficiently as a mixed
                          > ability team because there are no lesser mortals for them to feed from.
                          >
                          > Will

                          There are "top performers" and "top performers." Some people
                          who are classified as top performers seem to need other people
                          to pick up the pieces that they feel are below them. Other people
                          do the entire job well and don't leave loose ends that have to be
                          cleaned up later.

                          The label isn't always the reality. Look at the results and make
                          your own judgements.

                          John Roth
                        • David Putman (logica)
                          ... top ... Even if the top performers were better than the lesser mortals, how would you know? Furthermore, even if there were a way of knowing, treating
                          Message 12 of 23 , Apr 20, 2004
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                            Ron wrote:
                            > Yes, but if I don't subscribe to that belief, it could just be that the
                            top
                            > performers are just better than the lessers. I actually DO subscribe to
                            > that belief.

                            Even if the top performers were better than the lesser mortals, how would
                            you know?
                            Furthermore, even if there were a way of knowing, treating members of the
                            same team differently would create a competitive atmosphere. Not exactly
                            what you want for a collaborative endeavour such as software development.
                            Even just calling some 'top performers' and others 'lesser mortals' would be
                            enough. Add the Pygmalion effect to that and pretty soon you'll be in
                            dysfunction city. (Turn right at Dilbertville)

                            Dave P


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                          • Tony Nassar
                            See below... ... When I worked in Silicon Valley, the top performers were the ones who produced maximal LOC to implement the features that VCs or prospective
                            Message 13 of 23 , Apr 20, 2004
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                              See below...

                              > Even if the top performers were better than the lesser
                              > mortals, how would you know? Furthermore, even if there were
                              > a way of knowing, treating members of the same team
                              > differently would create a competitive atmosphere. Not
                              > exactly what you want for a collaborative endeavour such as
                              > software development.

                              When I worked in Silicon Valley, the "top performers" were the ones who
                              produced maximal LOC to implement the features that VCs or prospective
                              clients were expecting to see at the next meeting. I suppose the
                              developers who found and / or fixed the resulting bugs, to say nothing
                              of the QA staff, were lesser beings. I probably don't need to expand
                              this scenario.
                            • Steven Gordon
                              These examples, Dilbertian and otherwise, are cases of organizations recognizing and rewarding perceived value. A lot of organizations say they value
                              Message 14 of 23 , Apr 20, 2004
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                                These examples, Dilbertian and otherwise, are cases of organizations recognizing and rewarding perceived value. A lot of organizations say they value technical skills, but many of these really value various combinations of technical, business, political and social skills that make a person be perceived as being valuable. That's life.

                                As to identifying skilled developers, unless we want to rely solely on specific metrics that can never reveal the full picture, it will always be a bit subjective. After a few months exposure, I feel far more comfortable ranking the skills of the developers on an XP team than one where everyone is hiding in their cubes all day. I bet everyone on an XP team would come up with roughly the same rankings (possibly, excluding themselves).

                                Steve

                                -----Original Message-----
                                From: Tom Copeland [mailto:tom@...]
                                Sent: Tue 4/20/2004 8:54 AM
                                To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
                                Cc:
                                Subject: Re: [XP] XP Certification. What a waste...



                                On Tue, 2004-04-20 at 08:49, David Putman (logica) wrote:
                                > Even if the top performers were better than the lesser mortals, how would
                                > you know?

                                Hm. This sounds like a suggestion that all programmers are equally
                                skilled, or, at least, that there's no way of telling them apart.

                                > Furthermore, even if there were a way of knowing, treating members of the
                                > same team differently would create a competitive atmosphere. Not exactly
                                > what you want for a collaborative endeavour such as software development.
                                > Even just calling some 'top performers' and others 'lesser mortals' would be
                                > enough. Add the Pygmalion effect to that and pretty soon you'll be in
                                > dysfunction city. (Turn right at Dilbertville)

                                Is there a way to recognize differing skills levels without being
                                dysfunctional? "Tom has never programmed in C before, so we won't
                                assign him this device driver bug" - something like that?

                                Yours,

                                tom






                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Tom Copeland
                                ... Hm. This sounds like a suggestion that all programmers are equally skilled, or, at least, that there s no way of telling them apart. ... Is there a way to
                                Message 15 of 23 , Apr 20, 2004
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                                  On Tue, 2004-04-20 at 08:49, David Putman (logica) wrote:
                                  > Even if the top performers were better than the lesser mortals, how would
                                  > you know?

                                  Hm. This sounds like a suggestion that all programmers are equally
                                  skilled, or, at least, that there's no way of telling them apart.

                                  > Furthermore, even if there were a way of knowing, treating members of the
                                  > same team differently would create a competitive atmosphere. Not exactly
                                  > what you want for a collaborative endeavour such as software development.
                                  > Even just calling some 'top performers' and others 'lesser mortals' would be
                                  > enough. Add the Pygmalion effect to that and pretty soon you'll be in
                                  > dysfunction city. (Turn right at Dilbertville)

                                  Is there a way to recognize differing skills levels without being
                                  dysfunctional? "Tom has never programmed in C before, so we won't
                                  assign him this device driver bug" - something like that?

                                  Yours,

                                  tom
                                • Will Stott
                                  We need to create top performing teams and this requires much more than just selecting a group of top performers . I m not suggesting that all programmers
                                  Message 16 of 23 , Apr 20, 2004
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                                    We need to create 'top performing' teams and this requires much more than
                                    just selecting a group of 'top performers'. I'm not suggesting that all
                                    programmers are equally skilled - quite the opposite - as it seems clear
                                    that diversity plays an important part in creating top performing teams.
                                    However, I do suggest that you can't easily identify the people in a team
                                    who are responsible for making it work. Certification won't help here.

                                    Will

                                    -----Original Message-----
                                    From: Tom Copeland [mailto:tom@...]
                                    Sent: 20 April 2004 17:55
                                    To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
                                    Subject: Re: [XP] XP Certification. What a waste...

                                    On Tue, 2004-04-20 at 08:49, David Putman (logica) wrote:
                                    > Even if the top performers were better than the lesser mortals, how would
                                    > you know?

                                    Hm. This sounds like a suggestion that all programmers are equally
                                    skilled, or, at least, that there's no way of telling them apart.

                                    > Furthermore, even if there were a way of knowing, treating members of the
                                    > same team differently would create a competitive atmosphere. Not exactly
                                    > what you want for a collaborative endeavour such as software development.
                                    > Even just calling some 'top performers' and others 'lesser mortals' would
                                    be
                                    > enough. Add the Pygmalion effect to that and pretty soon you'll be in
                                    > dysfunction city. (Turn right at Dilbertville)

                                    Is there a way to recognize differing skills levels without being
                                    dysfunctional? "Tom has never programmed in C before, so we won't
                                    assign him this device driver bug" - something like that?

                                    Yours,

                                    tom



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                                  • Tom Copeland
                                    ... Agreed. ... Right... or, perhaps, top performing teams are frequently diverse . ... Agreed again. Tom
                                    Message 17 of 23 , Apr 20, 2004
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                                      On Tue, 2004-04-20 at 11:58, Will Stott wrote:
                                      > We need to create 'top performing' teams and this requires much more than
                                      > just selecting a group of 'top performers'.

                                      Agreed.

                                      > I'm not suggesting that all
                                      > programmers are equally skilled - quite the opposite - as it seems clear
                                      > that diversity plays an important part in creating top performing teams.

                                      Right... or, perhaps, "top performing teams are frequently diverse".

                                      > However, I do suggest that you can't easily identify the people in a team
                                      > who are responsible for making it work. Certification won't help here.

                                      Agreed again.

                                      Tom
                                    • Bob Flanders (COX)
                                      ... be ... Chris... Fascinating you should say this. I ve been in touch with a group in Washington that is doing a new kind of cert that may interest you...
                                      Message 18 of 23 , Apr 20, 2004
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                                        >Your mileage may very, but it has been my experience that only a handful of
                                        >people I have met that claim certifications have the real-world talent to
                                        be
                                        >top performers on a team.

                                        Chris...

                                        Fascinating you should say this. I've been in touch with a group in
                                        Washington that is doing a new kind of cert that may interest you...
                                        Experience Certification.

                                        They're at http://www.itc2.org

                                        -- Bob
                                      • Laurent Bossavit
                                        ... Looks like a scam at first glance. No prices are quoted anywhere on the public part of the site. The (supposedly FREE) registration form requires credit
                                        Message 19 of 23 , Apr 20, 2004
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                                          > They're at http://www.itc2.org

                                          Looks like a scam at first glance. No prices are quoted anywhere on
                                          the public part of the site. The (supposedly FREE) registration form
                                          requires credit card details, which are "being collected and stored
                                          for use at the time you register for a selected certification".

                                          Cheers,

                                          -[Laurent]-
                                          .siht gnidaer emit ruoy etsaw t'noD
                                        • Ron Jeffries
                                          ... I don t entirely agree. I think on any team, everyone knows who s good at what. That s not to say that I d give people job titles of top performer and
                                          Message 20 of 23 , Apr 20, 2004
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                                            On Tuesday, April 20, 2004, at 7:49:15 AM, David Putman (logica) wrote:

                                            > Ron wrote:
                                            >> Yes, but if I don't subscribe to that belief, it could just be that the
                                            > top
                                            >> performers are just better than the lessers. I actually DO subscribe to
                                            >> that belief.

                                            > Even if the top performers were better than the lesser mortals, how would
                                            > you know?
                                            > Furthermore, even if there were a way of knowing, treating members of the
                                            > same team differently would create a competitive atmosphere. Not exactly
                                            > what you want for a collaborative endeavour such as software development.
                                            > Even just calling some 'top performers' and others 'lesser mortals' would be
                                            > enough. Add the Pygmalion effect to that and pretty soon you'll be in
                                            > dysfunction city. (Turn right at Dilbertville)

                                            I don't entirely agree. I think on any team, everyone knows who's good at
                                            what. That's not to say that I'd give people job titles of "top performer"
                                            and "lesser mortal". But I think everyone knows pretty much where they
                                            stand. If they don't know, I think they should.

                                            Ron Jeffries
                                            www.XProgramming.com
                                            To be on the wire is life. The rest is waiting. --Karl Wallenda
                                          • Steven J. Owens
                                            ... This cuts both ways, though. I ve been the quiet guy in the corner, cleaning up the code produced by the guy who just plunges in. Sometimes the
                                            Message 21 of 23 , Apr 20, 2004
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                                              On Mon, Apr 19, 2004 at 05:24:01AM -0400, Ron Jeffries wrote:
                                              > I recall a "top performer" at a client shop, who was the manager's
                                              > favorite programmer. He'd take on anything, and always delivered,
                                              > even though his tasks were the most difficult.
                                              >
                                              > What everyone on the team knew was that the real hero was a quiet
                                              > fellow over in the corner who never said much. All he did was fix
                                              > all the bugs the "top performer" created as he slashed through the
                                              > weeds.

                                              This cuts both ways, though. I've been the quiet guy in the
                                              corner, cleaning up the code produced by the guy who just plunges in.
                                              Sometimes the just-plunge-in guy is annoying as hell, but sometimes
                                              you need somebody around who's willing to risk getting in over his
                                              head. Balancing the two isn't easy...

                                              Perception is a funny thing though; I've seen a serious coder get
                                              pigeonholed by management as a paper pusher, just because he was the
                                              best member of the technical team to handle negotiating contracts and
                                              leases for hardware, colocation, etc. I had no idea, until years
                                              later, that the managers in question just assumed the CTO had brought
                                              him on board as a sinecure. They never saw the amount of down in the
                                              trenches development that he did.

                                              --
                                              Steven J. Owens
                                              puff@...

                                              "I'm going to make broad, sweeping generalizations and strong,
                                              declarative statements, because otherwise I'll be here all night and
                                              this document will be four times longer and much less fun to read.
                                              Take it all with a grain of salt." - Me at http://darksleep.com
                                            • Bob Flanders (COX)
                                              Hi again. It is no scam. It is just getting started. Hopefully, you will start to see more and more instances of companies interested in hiring Experience
                                              Message 22 of 23 , Apr 21, 2004
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                                                Hi again.

                                                It is no scam. It is just getting started. Hopefully, you will start to see
                                                more and more instances of companies interested in hiring Experience
                                                Certified professionals.

                                                When you take one of these certifications, you supply information about your
                                                background along with references to individuals that can verify you actually
                                                performed the work you cite in your resume and in case studies that you
                                                write which support your resume.

                                                Basically, they do a background check (similar to what an employer would
                                                do), and then your case studies are reviewed, and your references contacted
                                                (perhaps interviewed by phone.) Finally, you will be given one or more essay
                                                questions that will try to further probe your depth of experience.

                                                I have personally authored some of the certifications. In fact, I have to
                                                give away 10 certifications and am looking for some individuals with 8-10
                                                years of experience who would be willing to go through the process.

                                                If you'd like to see one of the results, go to this link:

                                                https://certificants.itc2.org/resumes/CRControl.asp?OldURL=https://certifica
                                                nts.itc2.org/resumes/EE7064DA

                                                This is a copy of my "transcripted" resume, with my experience and those
                                                portions that have been certified by ITC2.

                                                I'm sorry if I presented it badly, but it's not a scam.

                                                -- Bob Flanders

                                                BTW... During the past several months, I've been introduced to and have been
                                                using XP to implement a project. I love it. The fellow who has "mentored'"
                                                me in TDD/XP has been working with it for about a year an a half. It has
                                                been one of the most successful projects I have ever worked on. Our client
                                                and their customers are amazed and overjoyed that an IT project was
                                                delivered on time, on budget and working. I am considering asking ITC2 if
                                                they would be willing to offer an XP experience certification, but I'd
                                                rather talk to someone here about the possibility of authoring it.

                                                -----Original Message-----
                                                From: Laurent Bossavit [mailto:laurent@...]
                                                Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2004 6:53 PM
                                                To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
                                                Subject: RE: [XP] XP Certification. What a waste...

                                                > They're at http://www.itc2.org

                                                Looks like a scam at first glance. No prices are quoted anywhere on
                                                the public part of the site. The (supposedly FREE) registration form
                                                requires credit card details, which are "being collected and stored
                                                for use at the time you register for a selected certification".

                                                Cheers,

                                                -[Laurent]-
                                                .siht gnidaer emit ruoy etsaw t'noD




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                                              • Laurent Bossavit
                                                ... Right now what I d like to see is clear information about prices, without being required to input credit card data. If you can pass this along to the
                                                Message 23 of 23 , Apr 24, 2004
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                                                  Bob:

                                                  > If you'd like to see one of the results, go to this link:

                                                  Right now what I'd like to see is clear information about prices,
                                                  without being required to input credit card data. If you can pass
                                                  this along to the people running ITC2, I'd appreciate that...

                                                  Cheers,

                                                  -[Laurent]-
                                                  It was on one of my journeys between the EDSAC room and the punching
                                                  equipment that 'hesitating at the angles of stairs' the realization
                                                  came over me with full force that a good part of the remainder of my
                                                  life was going to be spent in finding errors in my own programs.
                                                  Maurice Wilkes - first programmer in history
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