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RE: [XP] DTSTTCPW on oxymoron?

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  • Gohara, Mark
    Have to agree with your wife on that one. ... From: Morris, Chris [mailto:ChrisM@SNELLINGCORP.COM] Sent: Monday, July 31, 2000 9:09 AM To:
    Message 1 of 30 , Jul 31, 2000
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      Have to agree with your wife on that one.

      -----Original Message-----
      From: Morris, Chris [mailto:ChrisM@...]
      Sent: Monday, July 31, 2000 9:09 AM
      To: 'extremeprogramming@egroups.com'
      Subject: [XP] DTSTTCPW on oxymoron?


      I was talking about XP with my wife last night, and I mentioned DTSTTCPW.
      She asked, "Why isn't it called KISS? That would seem to be the simpler
      thing to do..."

      Chris Morris
      chrism@...


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    • Donald McLean
      KISS does not include the important idea that it has to work (at least not explicitly anyway). Donald McLean #include dmclean@stsci.edu
      Message 2 of 30 , Jul 31, 2000
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        KISS does not include the important idea that it has to work
        (at least not explicitly anyway).

        Donald McLean #include <disclaimer.h>
        dmclean@... AOL-IM: DonaldFMcLean
        Space Telescope Science Institute

        > From: Morris, Chris [mailto:ChrisM@...]
        >
        > I was talking about XP with my wife last night, and I mentioned DTSTTCPW.
        > She asked, "Why isn't it called KISS? That would seem to be the simpler
        > thing to do..."
      • Gohara, Mark
        Actually it does. {#define SOAPBOX} Here are my problems with a lot of stuff we do today. We give the them fancy names and add a bunch of garbage in place of
        Message 3 of 30 , Jul 31, 2000
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          Actually it does.

          {#define SOAPBOX}
          Here are my problems with a lot of stuff we do today. We give the them fancy
          names and add a bunch of garbage in place of simple common sense. I have
          seen more crap out of methodologies than most other things. Use the
          methodology that fits. Take what works from one and anothe rcombine and if
          they work for you Great and if not try again. Oh and yes usually the most
          simple answers are the ones that work.
          {#ndefine SOAPBOX}
          -----Original Message-----
          From: Donald McLean [mailto:dmclean@...]
          Sent: Monday, July 31, 2000 9:25 AM
          To: 'extremeprogramming@egroups.com'
          Subject: RE: [XP] DTSTTCPW on oxymoron?


          KISS does not include the important idea that it has to work
          (at least not explicitly anyway).

          Donald McLean #include <disclaimer.h>
          dmclean@... AOL-IM: DonaldFMcLean
          Space Telescope Science Institute
        • Simon Smith
          From: Morris, Chris [mailto:ChrisM@SNELLINGCORP.COM] ... But what if the simplest thing that *could possibly work* is in fact rather complicated? KISS says
          Message 4 of 30 , Jul 31, 2000
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            From: Morris, Chris [mailto:ChrisM@...]
            > Sent: Monday, July 31, 2000 9:09 AM
            > To: 'extremeprogramming@egroups.com'
            > Subject: [XP] DTSTTCPW on oxymoron?
            >
            >
            > I was talking about XP with my wife last night, and I mentioned DTSTTCPW.
            > She asked, "Why isn't it called KISS? That would seem to be the simpler
            > thing to do..."
            >
            > Chris Morris

            But what if the simplest thing that *could possibly work* is in fact rather
            complicated? KISS says don't do it.

            Mind you, I'm not sure that that would ever actually happen. But then
            testing for errors which you don't believe will ever happen, or putting
            'case else' after your complete list of options, are both good practices...



            ---Simon

            mailto:Simon@...
            www.quintuslink.com
          • mike
            ... From: Morris, Chris To: Sent: Monday, July 31, 2000 10:08 AM Subject: [XP] DTSTTCPW on
            Message 5 of 30 , Jul 31, 2000
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              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "Morris, Chris" <ChrisM@...>
              To: <extremeprogramming@egroups.com>
              Sent: Monday, July 31, 2000 10:08 AM
              Subject: [XP] DTSTTCPW on oxymoron?


              > I was talking about XP with my wife last night, and I mentioned DTSTTCPW.
              > She asked, "Why isn't it called KISS? That would seem to be the simpler
              > thing to do..."

              I am reminded of Einstein who once said "Keep things as simple as possible,
              but no simpler".
            • Ron Jeffries
              ... Because KISS stands for Keep It Simple, Stupid, and that s rude, Stupid! ;- Ron Jeffries www.XProgramming.com
              Message 6 of 30 , Jul 31, 2000
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                At 09:08 AM 7/31/2000 -0500, Morris, Chris wrote:
                >I was talking about XP with my wife last night, and I mentioned DTSTTCPW.
                >She asked, "Why isn't it called KISS? That would seem to be the simpler
                >thing to do..."

                Because KISS stands for Keep It Simple, Stupid, and that's rude, Stupid! ;->

                Ron Jeffries
                www.XProgramming.com
              • Eric Hodges
                Some simple things work. Since KISS could *possibly* work, then KISS follows DTSTTCPW. Therefore, DTSTTCPW refactors to KISS. KISS obeys DTSTTCPW and KISS.
                Message 7 of 30 , Jul 31, 2000
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                  Some simple things work. Since KISS could *possibly* work, then KISS
                  follows DTSTTCPW. Therefore, DTSTTCPW refactors to KISS. KISS obeys
                  DTSTTCPW and KISS.

                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: "Simon Smith" <simon@...>
                  To: <extremeprogramming@egroups.com>
                  Sent: Monday, July 31, 2000 10:02 AM
                  Subject: RE: [XP] DTSTTCPW on oxymoron?


                  > From: Morris, Chris [mailto:ChrisM@...]
                  > > Sent: Monday, July 31, 2000 9:09 AM
                  > > To: 'extremeprogramming@egroups.com'
                  > > Subject: [XP] DTSTTCPW on oxymoron?
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > I was talking about XP with my wife last night, and I mentioned
                  DTSTTCPW.
                  > > She asked, "Why isn't it called KISS? That would seem to be the simpler
                  > > thing to do..."
                  > >
                  > > Chris Morris
                  >
                  > But what if the simplest thing that *could possibly work* is in fact
                  rather
                  > complicated? KISS says don't do it.
                  >
                  > Mind you, I'm not sure that that would ever actually happen. But then
                  > testing for errors which you don't believe will ever happen, or putting
                  > 'case else' after your complete list of options, are both good
                  practices...
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ---Simon
                  >
                  > mailto:Simon@...
                  > www.quintuslink.com
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
                  >
                  > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                  extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
                  >
                  > Ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.com
                  >
                  >
                • Mark Wilden
                  ... From: Donald McLean ... But that s not part of DTSTTCPW. I wrote Do The Simplest Thing That Could Possibly Work as the XP Quote o
                  Message 8 of 30 , Jul 31, 2000
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                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: "Donald McLean" <dmclean@...>


                    > KISS does not include the important idea that it has to work
                    > (at least not explicitly anyway).

                    But that's not part of DTSTTCPW.

                    I wrote "Do The Simplest Thing That Could Possibly Work" as the XP Quote o'
                    the Week on the whiteboard and someone changed it to "Do The Simplest Thing
                    That Will Work". But there's a big difference, I feel. The point of the
                    principle is that you don't necessarily _know_ whether it will work (i.e.
                    satisfy all possible requirements), so you do the simplest thing that could
                    _possibly_ work. Nine times out of ten, that'll be all that's needed. The
                    tenth time you find another way. What you don't do is spend a lot of time up
                    front making sure that your "thing" is perfect (i.e. it _has_ to work).
                  • Mark Wilden
                    ... From: mike ... possible, ... And I m reminded of how tautologous that supposed insight is. I don t need to be reminded not to do
                    Message 9 of 30 , Jul 31, 2000
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                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: "mike" <majohnson@...>
                      >
                      > I am reminded of Einstein who once said "Keep things as simple as
                      possible,
                      > but no simpler".

                      And I'm reminded of how tautologous that supposed insight is. I don't need
                      to be reminded not to do things that are impossible.
                    • Ron Jeffries
                      ... It s impossible always to be polite. Ron Jeffries www.XProgramming.com
                      Message 10 of 30 , Jul 31, 2000
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                        At 09:39 AM 7/31/2000 -0700, Mark Wilden wrote:
                        >And I'm reminded of how tautologous that supposed insight is. I don't need
                        >to be reminded not to do things that are impossible.

                        It's impossible always to be polite.

                        Ron Jeffries
                        www.XProgramming.com
                      • Mark Wilden
                        ... From: Ron Jeffries
                        Message 11 of 30 , Jul 31, 2000
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                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: "Ron Jeffries" <ronjeffries@...
                          >
                          > >And I'm reminded of how tautologous that supposed insight is. I don't
                          need
                          > >to be reminded not to do things that are impossible.
                          >
                          > It's impossible always to be polite.

                          I beg your pardon. My rudeness was directed at Albert Einstein, not his
                          quoter.
                        • Ken Boyer
                          ... From: Ron Jeffries Date: Monday, July 31, 2000 10:42 AM ... How about the more polite version: Keep It Simple and Straightforward :-)
                          Message 12 of 30 , Jul 31, 2000
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                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: Ron Jeffries <ronjeffries@...>
                            Date: Monday, July 31, 2000 10:42 AM


                            >At 09:08 AM 7/31/2000 -0500, Morris, Chris wrote:
                            >>I was talking about XP with my wife last night, and I mentioned DTSTTCPW.
                            >>She asked, "Why isn't it called KISS? That would seem to be the simpler
                            >>thing to do..."
                            >
                            >Because KISS stands for Keep It Simple, Stupid, and that's rude, Stupid! ;->


                            How about the more polite version: Keep It Simple and Straightforward :-)
                            <><
                            Kenneth W. Boyer Jr., CSQE
                            Senior Software Engineer
                            VASCOR, Inc.
                          • Keith Paton
                            I think Mark is missing the point here. Einstein was pointing out that if you express something that is not really quite simple in a very simple way you miss
                            Message 13 of 30 , Jul 31, 2000
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                              I think Mark is missing the point here.
                              Einstein was pointing out that if you express something that is not really
                              quite simple in a very simple way you miss some
                              of it; that's what the "no simpler" means.

                              Put it another way; an idea has an intrinsic simplicity
                              I guess nuclear power stations are intrinsically less simple than my roller
                              blades
                              when you express the idea your expression has a simplicity also

                              1
                              if the simplicity of your expression is less than the intrinsic simplicity
                              you have failed in one sense
                              (by introducing complexity of your own)

                              2
                              if the simplicity of your expression is more than the intrinsic simplicity
                              you have failed in the other sense
                              (by over-simplifying the subject)

                              3
                              if the simplicity of your expression is equal to the intrinsic simplicity
                              you have succeeded


                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: "Mark Wilden" <mark@...>
                              To: <extremeprogramming@egroups.com>
                              Sent: Monday, July 31, 2000 12:39 PM
                              Subject: Re: [XP] DTSTTCPW on oxymoron?


                              > ----- Original Message -----
                              > From: "mike" <majohnson@...>
                              > >
                              > > I am reminded of Einstein who once said "Keep things as simple as
                              > possible,
                              > > but no simpler".
                              >
                              > And I'm reminded of how tautologous that supposed insight is. I don't need
                              > to be reminded not to do things that are impossible.
                              >
                              >
                              > To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
                              >
                              > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                              extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
                              >
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                              >
                              >
                            • Joshua Macy/Towers Perrin
                              I don t see the tautology. You can certainly attempt to make things simpler than is actually possible--in which case they fail in certain instances. Happens
                              Message 14 of 30 , Jul 31, 2000
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                                I don't see the tautology. You can certainly attempt to make things simpler
                                than is actually possible--in which case they fail in certain instances.
                                Happens all the time. It's downright easy to make things more complicated than
                                is necessary. Getting something as simple as it can possibly be without
                                failing--now that's tricky. I strive for that in my code, but I can't say that
                                I always hit it.





                                "Mark Wilden" <mark@...> on 07/31/2000 12:39:59 PM

                                Please respond to extremeprogramming@egroups.com


                                To: extremeprogramming@egroups.com
                                cc: (bcc: Joshua Macy/Towers Perrin)
                                From: "Mark Wilden" <mark@...>
                                Date: 07/31/2000 12:39 PM
                                Subject: Re: [XP] DTSTTCPW on oxymoron?



                                ----- Original Message -----
                                From: "mike" <majohnson@...>
                                >
                                > I am reminded of Einstein who once said "Keep things as simple as
                                possible,
                                > but no simpler".

                                And I'm reminded of how tautologous that supposed insight is. I don't need
                                to be reminded not to do things that are impossible.


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                              • cg@cdegroot.com
                                ... Einstein meant this one for management... -- Cees de Groot http://www.cdegroot.com GnuPG 1024D/E0989E8B 0016 F679 F38D
                                Message 15 of 30 , Jul 31, 2000
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                                  Mark Wilden <mark@...> said:
                                  >>
                                  >> I am reminded of Einstein who once said "Keep things as simple as
                                  >possible,
                                  >> but no simpler".
                                  >
                                  >And I'm reminded of how tautologous that supposed insight is. I don't need
                                  >to be reminded not to do things that are impossible.
                                  >
                                  Einstein meant this one for management...

                                  --
                                  Cees de Groot http://www.cdegroot.com <cg@...>
                                  GnuPG 1024D/E0989E8B 0016 F679 F38D 5946 4ECD 1986 F303 937F E098 9E8B
                                  Forge your CipherSaber and list it: http://www.xs4all.nl/~cg/ciphersaber/
                                • Mark Wilden
                                  ... From: Keith Paton
                                  Message 16 of 30 , Jul 31, 2000
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                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                    From: "Keith Paton" <paton@...
                                    >
                                    > I think Mark is missing the point here.

                                    It's quite possible. A lot of intelligent people like that quote. It's
                                    rather a pet peeve of mine.

                                    > Einstein was pointing out that if you express something that is not really
                                    > quite simple in a very simple way you miss some
                                    > of it; that's what the "no simpler" means.

                                    If you've done that, then you haven't really expressed it. You've expressed
                                    something different. But if folks find it useful to be reminded against this
                                    kind of oversimplification, that's fine.
                                  • Mark Wilden
                                    ... From: Joshua Macy/Towers Perrin ... simpler ... OK. But replace simple with any other good quality, and you have an equally true
                                    Message 17 of 30 , Jul 31, 2000
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                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                      From: "Joshua Macy/Towers Perrin" <macyj@...>
                                      >
                                      > I don't see the tautology. You can certainly attempt to make things
                                      simpler
                                      > than is actually possible--in which case they fail in certain instances.

                                      OK. But replace "simple" with any other "good" quality, and you have an
                                      equally true statement: Make things as <good word> as possible, but not any
                                      more <good word> [as possible].

                                      No one needs to be told not try to make things simpler than possible, do
                                      they? That's rather obvious. The trick is to determine what is possible, and
                                      I don't see Einstein's quote helping there.
                                    • Morris, Chris
                                      ... I d say many do, otherwise Einstein wouldn t be quoted so much. I ve worked with a lot of PHBs who fail to grasp that reality is more complex than they d
                                      Message 18 of 30 , Jul 31, 2000
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                                        > No one needs to be told not try to make things simpler than
                                        > possible, do
                                        > they? That's rather obvious.

                                        I'd say many do, otherwise Einstein wouldn't be quoted so much.

                                        I've worked with a lot of PHBs who fail to grasp that reality is more
                                        complex than they'd like it to be. "Just make it simple - just do it this
                                        way..." "But that doesn't take such-n-such into account..." "Argh! You
                                        programmers are always so difficult."

                                        I hear the same thing about "politics" in business and government. I hear
                                        the same thing, being a Christian, from critics of the Bible. It should all
                                        be much simpler, shouldn't it? Well, the fact is it's not -- so let's not
                                        oversimplify.

                                        Chris
                                      • Joshua Macy/Towers Perrin
                                        Well, since at least three times in the history of astronomy models of the motions of the planets of the solar system had to be scrapped as being (in essence)
                                        Message 19 of 30 , Jul 31, 2000
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                                          Well, since at least three times in the history of astronomy models of the
                                          motions of the planets of the solar system had to be scrapped as being (in
                                          essence) simpler than is possible, and the last time it happened it was Einstein
                                          and his General Theory of Relativity that finally produced a model complicated
                                          enough to explain the observations without (apparently) requiring any needless
                                          cruft like epicycles or etheric wind, I would say that yes, people do need the
                                          occassional reminder not to make things simpler than possible.





                                          "Mark Wilden" <mark@...> on 07/31/2000 01:30:02 PM

                                          Please respond to extremeprogramming@egroups.com


                                          To: extremeprogramming@egroups.com
                                          cc: (bcc: Joshua Macy/Towers Perrin)
                                          From: "Mark Wilden" <mark@...>
                                          Date: 07/31/2000 01:30 PM
                                          Subject: Re: [XP] DTSTTCPW on oxymoron?



                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                          From: "Joshua Macy/Towers Perrin" <macyj@...>
                                          >
                                          > I don't see the tautology. You can certainly attempt to make things
                                          simpler
                                          > than is actually possible--in which case they fail in certain instances.

                                          OK. But replace "simple" with any other "good" quality, and you have an
                                          equally true statement: Make things as <good word> as possible, but not any
                                          more <good word> [as possible].

                                          No one needs to be told not try to make things simpler than possible, do
                                          they? That's rather obvious. The trick is to determine what is possible, and
                                          I don't see Einstein's quote helping there.


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                                        • Mark Wilden
                                          ... From: Morris, Chris ... I don t know. I think it s just a cool-sounding quote. :) But when you analyze it, it really doesn t
                                          Message 20 of 30 , Jul 31, 2000
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                                            ----- Original Message -----
                                            From: "Morris, Chris" <ChrisM@...>
                                            >
                                            > > No one needs to be told not try to make things simpler than
                                            > > possible, do
                                            > > they? That's rather obvious.
                                            >
                                            > I'd say many do, otherwise Einstein wouldn't be quoted so much.

                                            I don't know. I think it's just a cool-sounding quote. :) But when you
                                            analyze it, it really doesn't say anything profound. You don't hear MBAs say
                                            "Let's make this business as profitable as possible, but not more profitable
                                            than possible." You don't hear engineers say "A bridge should be as safe as
                                            possible, but no safer."

                                            > I've worked with a lot of PHBs who fail to grasp that reality is more
                                            > complex than they'd like it to be. "Just make it simple - just do it this
                                            > way..." "But that doesn't take such-n-such into account..." "Argh! You
                                            > programmers are always so difficult."

                                            I doubt very much whether quoting Einstein at them would make a difference.

                                            > I hear the same thing about "politics" in business and government. I hear
                                            > the same thing, being a Christian, from critics of the Bible. It should
                                            all
                                            > be much simpler, shouldn't it? Well, the fact is it's not -- so let's not
                                            > oversimplify.

                                            Let's also not over<x>, where x is any word you like.
                                          • Mark Wilden
                                            ... From: Joshua Macy/Towers Perrin ... Actually, the Copernican model was much simpler than its predecessor (you mentioned epicycles).
                                            Message 21 of 30 , Jul 31, 2000
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                                              ----- Original Message -----
                                              From: "Joshua Macy/Towers Perrin" <macyj@...>
                                              >
                                              > Well, since at least three times in the history of astronomy models of the
                                              > motions of the planets of the solar system had to be scrapped as being (in
                                              > essence) simpler than is possible

                                              Actually, the Copernican model was much simpler than its predecessor (you
                                              mentioned epicycles).

                                              >, and the last time it happened it was Einstein
                                              > and his General Theory of Relativity that finally produced a model
                                              complicated
                                              > enough to explain the observations without (apparently) requiring any
                                              needless
                                              > cruft like epicycles or etheric wind, I would say that yes, people do need
                                              the
                                              > occassional reminder not to make things simpler than possible.

                                              I would say that Einstein's contribution to our understanding of the
                                              universe was based on more than just being reminded not to do the
                                              impossible.

                                              Look, maybe it's just me, but in general, the quotes and tenets I find most
                                              useful are those which do not express the obvious. Take YAGNI. This is an
                                              extremely powerful concept because it flies against everything we've been
                                              told about software design. I wasn't "reminded" that I shouldn't build in
                                              generality that I don't immediately need--I was _re-educated_ that, contrary
                                              to the accepted wisdom regarding the cost of change and its timing, I should
                                              not try to predict the future. For most programmers today, this is
                                              nonobvious and even revolutionary. Take that, Einstein! :)
                                            • Ian Hobson
                                              In article , Keith Paton writes ... No - by leaving out complexity that is needed (who says it is
                                              Message 22 of 30 , Jul 31, 2000
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                                                In article <00bd01bffb12$24a7c0e0$3865059a@paton>, Keith Paton
                                                <paton@...> writes
                                                >I think Mark is missing the point here.
                                                >Einstein was pointing out that if you express something that is not really
                                                >quite simple in a very simple way you miss some
                                                > of it; that's what the "no simpler" means.
                                                >
                                                >Put it another way; an idea has an intrinsic simplicity
                                                >I guess nuclear power stations are intrinsically less simple than my roller
                                                >blades
                                                >when you express the idea your expression has a simplicity also
                                                >
                                                >1
                                                >if the simplicity of your expression is less than the intrinsic simplicity
                                                >you have failed in one sense
                                                >(by introducing complexity of your own)
                                                No - by leaving out complexity that is needed (who says it is needed?)
                                                >
                                                >2
                                                >if the simplicity of your expression is more than the intrinsic simplicity
                                                >you have failed in the other sense
                                                >(by over-simplifying the subject)
                                                No - by introducing complexity that is pointless.
                                                >
                                                >3
                                                >if the simplicity of your expression is equal to the intrinsic simplicity
                                                >you have succeeded
                                                No. You have erred equally in both directions.

                                                /PENDANT OFF <G>

                                                The Times Law Reports, April 7th 1999, when reporting "Express & Echo
                                                Publications v Tanton", Court of Appeal 1999, on page 279, "[W]here a
                                                person... was not required to provide those services personally it... [is]
                                                wholly inconsistent with the contract being a contract of service... [therefore]
                                                the only conclusion... was that the contract was one for services."
                                              • Eric Hodges
                                                ... I don t think it means try the simplest thing that could possibly work all the time . Finding a solution that works for the current problem is all that
                                                Message 23 of 30 , Jul 31, 2000
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                                                  > -----Original Message-----
                                                  > From: Ilja Preuß [mailto:ilja.preuss@...]
                                                  > Sent: Tuesday, October 31, 2000 2:43 PM
                                                  > To: extremeprogramming@egroups.com
                                                  > Subject: RE: [XP] DTSTTCPW on oxymoron?
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > DTSTTCPW doesn't mean "do the simplest thing that could possibly sometimes
                                                  > work" but "try the simplest thing that could possibly work all
                                                  > the time; if
                                                  > it doesn't, try another".

                                                  I don't think it means "try the simplest thing that could possibly work all
                                                  the time". Finding a solution that works for the current problem is all
                                                  that is needed. Solutions that work for other related problems are
                                                  incredibly elusive.

                                                  >
                                                  > ciao, Ilja
                                                  >
                                                  > > -----Original Message-----
                                                  > > From: Eric Hodges [mailto:eric.hodges@...]
                                                  > > Sent: Montag, 31. Juli 2000 18:09
                                                  > > To: extremeprogramming@egroups.com
                                                  > > Subject: Re: [XP] DTSTTCPW on oxymoron?
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Some simple things work. Since KISS could *possibly* work, then KISS
                                                  > > follows DTSTTCPW. Therefore, DTSTTCPW refactors to KISS. KISS obeys
                                                  > > DTSTTCPW and KISS.
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
                                                  >
                                                  > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                                                  > extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
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                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                • Eric Bennett
                                                  ... But these make perfect sense. The possible here doesn t warn against doing the impossible -- it warns against trying it. BDUF can plan impossible
                                                  Message 24 of 30 , Jul 31, 2000
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                                                    --- Mark Wilden <mark@...> wrote:
                                                    >
                                                    > I don't know. I think it's just a cool-sounding quote. :) But when you
                                                    > analyze it, it really doesn't say anything profound. You don't hear MBAs say
                                                    > "Let's make this business as profitable as possible, but not more profitable
                                                    > than possible." You don't hear engineers say "A bridge should be as safe as
                                                    > possible, but no safer."

                                                    But these make perfect sense. The "possible" here doesn't warn against doing the
                                                    impossible -- it warns against trying it. BDUF can plan impossible things for
                                                    breakfast if an effort is not made to ground it in reality.

                                                    Einstien's statement bids you to guard against breaking the theory while trying
                                                    to make it simple. (Use sound physics)

                                                    The business example says you should guard against making your business so
                                                    profitable that is no longer economically viable. (Use sound economics)

                                                    A "safer than possible bridge" is one so overdesigned for safety that is is no
                                                    longer practically (or politically) possible to construct. (Use sound engineering)

                                                    I think the would would be better if telling a professional to "Use sound
                                                    principles" WAS tautological, but I don't think it is.

                                                    - Eric B.


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                                                  • mike
                                                    ... You mean like when you get so big that you come under scrutiny for anti-trust :)
                                                    Message 25 of 30 , Jul 31, 2000
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                                                      > The business example says you should guard against making your business so
                                                      > profitable that is no longer economically viable. (Use sound economics)

                                                      You mean like when you get so big that you come under scrutiny for
                                                      anti-trust :)
                                                    • Ron Jeffries
                                                      ... Yeah, I hate that Einstein bastard. He s always slowing me down ... Ron Jeffries www.XProgramming.com
                                                      Message 26 of 30 , Jul 31, 2000
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                                                        At 09:52 AM 7/31/2000 -0700, Mark Wilden wrote:
                                                        >I beg your pardon. My rudeness was directed at Albert Einstein, not his
                                                        >quoter.

                                                        Yeah, I hate that Einstein bastard. He's always slowing me down ...



                                                        Ron Jeffries
                                                        www.XProgramming.com
                                                      • Ron Jeffries
                                                        At 09:42 PM 10/31/2000 +0100, Ilja Preuß wrote: ... Ron Jeffries www.XProgramming.com www.objectmentor.com
                                                        Message 27 of 30 , Sep 9, 2000
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                                                          At 09:42 PM 10/31/2000 +0100, Ilja Preuß wrote:

                                                          And Ron edited in <>:

                                                          >DTSTTCPW doesn't mean "do the simplest thing that could possibly sometimes
                                                          >work" but "try the simplest thing that could possibly work all the time;
                                                          >if <you find>
                                                          >it doesn't, <then> try another".


                                                          Ron Jeffries
                                                          www.XProgramming.com
                                                          www.objectmentor.com
                                                        • Joshua Kerievsky
                                                          ... WITSTTCPW? = What Is The Simplest Thing That Could Possibly Work? Kent once mentioned that he much prefers to ask WITSTTCPW than to tell someone DTSTTCPW.
                                                          Message 28 of 30 , Sep 29, 2000
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                                                            >DTSTTCPW doesn't mean "do the simplest thing that could possibly sometimes
                                                            >work" but "try the simplest thing that could possibly work all the time; if
                                                            >it doesn't, try another".

                                                            WITSTTCPW? = What Is The Simplest Thing That Could Possibly Work?

                                                            Kent once mentioned that he much prefers to ask WITSTTCPW than to tell someone
                                                            DTSTTCPW. I prefer the question form too. It opens up the space for
                                                            exploration -- hmmm, what would be most simple? DTSTTCPW is too much like a
                                                            command, as if knowing what the "simplest thing" were easy.

                                                            regards,
                                                            jk
                                                          • Chad Fowler
                                                            A fear I have in telling *some* people to DTSTTCPW is that they will interpret it as meaning to do the most obvious first thing that comes to mind. Simple
                                                            Message 29 of 30 , Sep 29, 2000
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                                                              A fear I have in telling *some* people to DTSTTCPW is that they will
                                                              interpret it as meaning to do the most obvious first thing that comes
                                                              to mind.

                                                              Simple things aren't necessarily born of simple thoughts. They are
                                                              often the most difficult things to arrive at.


                                                              --- In extremeprogramming@egroups.com, Joshua Kerievsky <joshua@i...>
                                                              wrote:
                                                              > >DTSTTCPW doesn't mean "do the simplest thing that could possibly
                                                              sometimes
                                                              > >work" but "try the simplest thing that could possibly work all the
                                                              time; if
                                                              > >it doesn't, try another".
                                                              >
                                                              > WITSTTCPW? = What Is The Simplest Thing That Could Possibly Work?
                                                              >
                                                              > Kent once mentioned that he much prefers to ask WITSTTCPW than to
                                                              tell someone
                                                              > DTSTTCPW. I prefer the question form too. It opens up the space
                                                              for
                                                              > exploration -- hmmm, what would be most simple? DTSTTCPW is too
                                                              much like a
                                                              > command, as if knowing what the "simplest thing" were easy.
                                                              >
                                                              > regards,
                                                              > jk
                                                            • Ilja Preuß
                                                              DTSTTCPW doesn t mean do the simplest thing that could possibly sometimes work but try the simplest thing that could possibly work all the time; if it
                                                              Message 30 of 30 , Oct 31, 2000
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                                                                DTSTTCPW doesn't mean "do the simplest thing that could possibly sometimes
                                                                work" but "try the simplest thing that could possibly work all the time; if
                                                                it doesn't, try another".

                                                                ciao, Ilja

                                                                > -----Original Message-----
                                                                > From: Eric Hodges [mailto:eric.hodges@...]
                                                                > Sent: Montag, 31. Juli 2000 18:09
                                                                > To: extremeprogramming@egroups.com
                                                                > Subject: Re: [XP] DTSTTCPW on oxymoron?
                                                                >
                                                                >
                                                                > Some simple things work. Since KISS could *possibly* work, then KISS
                                                                > follows DTSTTCPW. Therefore, DTSTTCPW refactors to KISS. KISS obeys
                                                                > DTSTTCPW and KISS.
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