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RE: [XP] cmm and agile?

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  • Alleman, Glen B.
    Robert, XP is certainty low ceremony when compared to high ceremony CMMI processes. The formality of XP is a value judgment though. Compared to our projects
    Message 1 of 21 , Apr 1 1:18 PM
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      Robert,

      XP is certainty low ceremony when compared to high ceremony CMMI
      processes. The formality of XP is a value judgment though. Compared to
      our projects that use CMMI assessed process the formality of XP is very
      low. A 64 page configuration management guide with check list as the
      working document for the Change Control Board weekly meeting would not
      likely be found on an XP project.

      In the high ceremony, high formality projects we work on, the format and
      media for the design is not defined by the team it is defined by the
      procurement regulations as a CDRL to the customer and their auditors.

      I've come to understand (and use) the fundamental differences between XP
      and not-XP is that the agile processes used on the project originate
      within the project. On not-agile projects the processes originate
      external to the project, either through contractual, regulatory, or
      policy means.

      An important Jack Welch quote that hangs in our common area is...

      "Bureaucracy protects the organization from the incompetent."

      Glen B. Alleman


      -----Original Message-----
      From: Robert C. Martin
      Subject: RE: [XP] cmm and agile?

      > I like Cockburn's two dimensional evaluation that he talks about for
      > Crystal - more people on the team and/or more damage from failure,
      > the more formal you need to be. I would either substitute or add
      > the distance between team members and between the team and customer
      > as another dimension. It fits my situation well.
      >

      There is an implicit assumption lurking in this paragraph that XP is not
      formal. Indeed, I've heard this argument made many different times by
      many
      different people. They say that XP is informal; or XP is low ceremony.

      I think they are wrong. I think XP is very formal and is high ceremony.
      It
      is formal in that all the essential documents produced by XP are
      executable.
      Requirements are documented as executable acceptance tests. Designs are
      documented as executable unit tests. It is high ceremony because there
      are
      certain things that must be done as a team every day, every week, and
      every
      month. XP does not mean ad-hoc.

      The that is as stake (the more damage from risk) the more you need to
      write
      your unit tests first, write your acceptance tests first, and work in
      very
      short cycles with lots of stakeholder feedback. The more people you
      have on
      the team, the more you need communication, tests, short cycles, and lots
      of
      feedback.
    • Robert C. Martin
      ... Robert C. Martin (Uncle Bob) Object Mentor Inc. unclebob@objectmentor.com 800-338-6716 ... That may be true. Would you expect to find executable
      Message 2 of 21 , Apr 1 9:25 PM
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        -----
        Robert C. Martin (Uncle Bob)
        Object Mentor Inc.
        unclebob@...
        800-338-6716


        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: Alleman, Glen B. [mailto:glen.alleman@...]
        > Sent: Thursday, April 01, 2004 3:18 PM
        > To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
        > Subject: RE: [XP] cmm and agile?
        >
        >
        > Robert,
        >
        > XP is certainty low ceremony when compared to high ceremony CMMI
        > processes. The formality of XP is a value judgment though. Compared to
        > our projects that use CMMI assessed process the formality of XP is very
        > low. A 64 page configuration management guide with check list as the
        > working document for the Change Control Board weekly meeting would not
        > likely be found on an XP project.

        That may be true. Would you expect to find executable requirements
        documents in a CMMI project? It seems to me that both are formal, just
        about different things.
        >
        > An important Jack Welch quote that hangs in our common area is...
        >
        > "Bureaucracy protects the organization from the incompetent."

        There is a corollary to this quote:

        "Incompetence subjects the organization to bureaucracy."

        -----
        Robert C. Martin (Uncle Bob)
        Object Mentor Inc.
        unclebob@...
        800-338-6716
      • Tony Nassar
        ... Is Welch for or against? How could an employee take this other than as, We are justified in imposing layers of bureaucracy on you because we have to
        Message 3 of 21 , Apr 1 9:50 PM
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          > An important Jack Welch quote that hangs in our common area is...
          >
          > "Bureaucracy protects the organization from the incompetent."

          Is Welch for or against? How could an employee take this other than as, "We are justified in imposing layers of bureaucracy on you because we have to protect the company against your incompetence." Maybe I'm accentuating the negative, but if this is supposed to be a motivational slogan, why is it set against a presumption of incompetence?


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • WILLIAMS Dominic
          ... Bureaucracy protects the incomptetent from the organization. Dominic Williams http://www.dominicwilliams.net
          Message 4 of 21 , Apr 1 11:17 PM
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            > An important Jack Welch quote that hangs in our common area is...
            >
            > "Bureaucracy protects the organization from the incompetent."

            Bureaucracy protects the incomptetent from the organization.

            Dominic Williams
            http://www.dominicwilliams.net

            ----
          • Jeff Grigg
            ... Bureaucracy protects the incompetent from the consequences of their own actions. And this is not a good thing. -- JeffGrigg
            Message 5 of 21 , Apr 2 6:01 AM
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              >> "Bureaucracy protects the organization from the incompetent."
              >> -- Jack Welch

              > "Bureaucracy protects the incompetent from the organization."
              > -- Dominic Williams

              "Bureaucracy protects the incompetent from the consequences
              of their own actions.
              "And this is not a good thing."
              -- JeffGrigg
            • Alleman, Glen B.
              Robert, ... very ... That may be true. Would you expect to find executable requirements documents in a CMMI project? It seems to me that both are formal,
              Message 6 of 21 , Apr 2 7:15 AM
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                Robert,

                > -----Original Message-----
                > From: Alleman, Glen B. [mailto:glen.alleman@...]
                > Subject: RE: [XP] cmm and agile?
                > Robert,
                >
                > XP is certainty low ceremony when compared to high ceremony CMMI
                > processes. The formality of XP is a value judgment though. Compared to
                > our projects that use CMMI assessed process the formality of XP is
                very
                > low. A 64 page configuration management guide with check list as the
                > working document for the Change Control Board weekly meeting would not
                > likely be found on an XP project.

                That may be true. Would you expect to find executable requirements
                documents in a CMMI project? It seems to me that both are formal, just
                about different things.

                [GBA] CMMI says little about "how" to do the requirements. If executable
                requirements also met the needs of the requirements elicitation process
                holders - Systems Program Office e.g. - then they would add value to the
                process.
                >
                > An important Jack Welch quote that hangs in our common area is...
                >
                > "Bureaucracy protects the organization from the incompetent."

                There is a corollary to this quote:

                "Incompetence subjects the organization to bureaucracy."

                [GBA] So true. It the spinning ying-yang symbol all over again. Welch's
                starting point was in incumbent organization, where he removed the
                bureaucracy to expose the incompetence. From there he (and his
                consulting staff) could easily identify the gaps in the process. In the
                absence of this bureaucracy "shield" the problems were masked.

                -----
                Robert C. Martin

                Glen B. Alleman
              • Alleman, Glen B.
                GE s approach: remove the bureaucracy and expose the gaps...fix the gaps and you don t need the bureaucracy. Glen B. Alleman ... From: Tony Nassar
                Message 7 of 21 , Apr 2 7:23 AM
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                  GE's approach: remove the bureaucracy and expose the gaps...fix the gaps
                  and you don't need the bureaucracy.

                  Glen B. Alleman

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: Tony Nassar [mailto:tnassar@...]
                  Sent: Thursday, April 01, 2004 10:50 PM
                  To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: RE: [XP] cmm and agile?

                  > An important Jack Welch quote that hangs in our common area is...
                  > "Bureaucracy protects the organization from the incompetent."

                  Is Welch for or against? How could an employee take this other than as,
                  "We are justified in imposing layers of bureaucracy on you because we
                  have to protect the company against your incompetence." Maybe I'm
                  accentuating the negative, but if this is supposed to be a motivational
                  slogan, why is it set against a presumption of incompetence?
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