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Re: Offshoring XP

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  • CORUM, M E [AG/1000]
    I think there are a number of issues leading companies to hire offshore services but many of them come back to lack of knowledge or ignorance. It s just
    Message 1 of 112 , Mar 2, 2004
      I think there are a number of issues leading companies to hire
      offshore services but many of them come back to lack of knowledge
      or ignorance. It's just impossible for managers to ignore that
      hourly rate. Managers often come up with a line of reasoning that
      says that even if the overhead is 50% they would still come out
      ahead. They assume that one offshore resource has the same
      productivity and value as one local resource. The communication
      overhead is always understated as well. It's hard for people to
      look at the real numbers if the numbers don't match what they've
      dreamed up in their heads. If they expect an overhead of 50% but
      the real measured overhead is in excess of 800%, it's pretty hard
      to accept.

      There are people trying very hard to figure out how to do
      offshoring in a way that actually reaps benefits. The lessons
      learned are being written up in articles and I'm hoping that over
      time, we will read those articles, learn those lessons and do
      better. One of the lessons being learned is that offshoring works
      for a very limited range of problems and types of work.

      Mike Corum

      -----Original Message-----
      >Message: 4
      > Date: Mon, 01 Mar 2004 12:49:09 -0800
      > From: Dale Emery <dale@...>
      >Subject: Re: Offshoring XP
      >
      >Hi Mike,
      >
      >> However, when I talk to the people actually working with the
      >> offshore firms, they have calculated a fully-loaded cost of
      >> well over double their internal development.
      >
      >
      >Then what is leading companies hiring offshore services? What
      >business benefit do they expect to gain?
      >
      >Dale
      >
      >--
      >Dale Emery -- Consultant -- Resistance as a Resource
      >Web: http://www.dhemery.com
      >Weblog: http://www.dhemery.com/cwd (Conversations with Dale)
      >
      >I love wisdom more than wisdom loves me. --Lord Byron
    • Steve Ropa
      Yes, I should clarify. I came on board after the initial hiring decision was made. I had the perception that the team was too high ceremony, and the team
      Message 112 of 112 , Mar 3, 2004
        Yes, I should clarify. I came on board after the initial "hiring" decision
        was made. I had the perception that the team was too high ceremony, and the
        team had the perception that my company requires high ceremony. Luckily, we
        quickly found out that we were kindred spirits in Agility.

        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: Saif Ahmad [mailto:sahmad@...]
        > Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 2004 12:43 AM
        > To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
        > Subject: RE: [XP] Offshoring XP
        >
        >
        > Steve,
        > High ceremony lends itself to the unnecessary and undue
        > reverence most customers attach to thick piles of process documents;
        > process certifications and 'structured development'
        >
        > Referring specifically to the context that you are talking about; I was
        > quizzed on what 'documentations' we maintain; are we CMM processes'
        > compliant!
        >
        > Of course down the line it was more a case of getting used to the
        > 'pitch'; communication, more than anything else, facilitated the
        > offshore/onsite collaboration wonderfully
        >
        > While we developed our unique paradigm of agility whilst still retaining
        > the leverage of patterns driven development; (of course factoring in TDD
        > to evolve the same on need basis)
        >
        > And most importantly this has been one wonderful showcase for offshoring
        > wherein the focus has been on maximizing throughput and delivery by
        > leveraging a 24X7 delivery model rather than any migration of jobs!
        >
        > I wonder why people can't evolve a model where more gets done in the
        > same time by having two teams across opposite timezones work on same
        > deliverables
        >
        > I am sure lot has been said about communication and logistics overhead.
        > Honestly, there is no fixed formula to handle that; lot of it is
        > situational and contextual; involves elements of interpersonal skills
        > and rapport. However, if you have few willing and enterprising
        > individuals on either side of the engagement, it works out wonderfully
        > well
        >
        > Saif
        >
        >
        >
        > Saif Ahmad
        > Country Manager
        > Xavient Technologies
        > A/57 Sector 2 NOIDA
        > Phone-91-120-2539114
        > Fax-91-120-2539102
        > Mobile-+91-9818205196 (from US-+1.805.955.4414)
        > -US-+1.818.324.6062
        > email- sahmad@...
        >
        >
        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: Steve Ropa [mailto:theropas2@...]
        > Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 2004 10:24 AM
        > To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
        > Subject: RE: [XP] Offshoring XP
        >
        >
        > Oh, that I shall. But the point I was getting, was that if XP works in
        > one
        > case, why can't it work in the other?
        >
        > It's an interesting dichotomy. The offshore team, when I first met
        > them,
        > were a little too high ceremony, and I was afraid that nothing would
        > ever
        > get produced but paperwork. The other team is essentially code 'n fix.
        > Its
        > sort of a Tale of Two Vendors. Let's see...It was the best of code, it
        > was
        > the worst of code. There were objects that were tightly coupled, there
        > were
        > objects that were loosely coupled.....
        >
        > > -----Original Message-----
        > > From: Ron Jeffries [mailto:ronjeffries@...]
        > > Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2004 6:57 PM
        > > To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
        > > Subject: Re: [XP] Offshoring XP
        > >
        > >
        > > On Tuesday, March 2, 2004, at 7:39:59 PM, Steve Ropa wrote:
        > >
        > > > You know, after reading this, and my response that I just
        > > posted, I realized
        > > > that you guys have every right to jump on me for failing the
        > > "courage test".
        > > > I won't need to go quite as far as you stated, but I will this
        > > week start
        > > > giving this vendor his "this is working well in India, I would
        > > like you to
        > > > do the same."
        > >
        > > Well, OK ... on the other hand, you pointed out that your boss won't
        > hear
        > > anything bad about these guys, and that they have you by the um.
        > >
        > > So tread lightly, not just bravely.
        > >
        > > Ron Jeffries
        > > www.XProgramming.com
        > > You don't need to see my identification.
        > > These aren't the ideas you're looking for. Move along.
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        >
        >
        >
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