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Re: [XP] Re: Offshoring XP

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  • David Putman
    From: Kay A. Pentecost ... Hi Kay Latvia is a Baltic country in Northern Europe. About ... This year Latvia will become a full
    Message 1 of 9 , Mar 1, 2004
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      From: "Kay A. Pentecost" <tranzpupy@...>
      > Hi, Keith,
      >
      > > -----Original Message-----
      > > From: Keith Ray [mailto:keithray@...]
      > > Sent: Saturday, February 28, 2004 11:09 AM
      > > To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
      > > Subject: Re: [XP] Re: Offshoring XP
      > <snip>
      > >
      > > Europe's privacy laws are far more stringent than the US.
      >
      > Are you counting India and Latvia as Europe?
      >
      > Just curious,
      >

      Hi Kay

      Latvia is a Baltic country in Northern Europe. About ... This year Latvia
      will become a full member of NATO and the European Union.

      Not sure about India :)

      Dave P
    • yahoogroups@jhrothjr.com
      From: Dale Emery Sent: Monday, March 01, 2004 3:47 PM Subject: [XP] Re: Offshoring XP ... I ve been
      Message 2 of 9 , Mar 1, 2004
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        From: "Dale Emery" <dale.at.dhemery.com@...>
        Sent: Monday, March 01, 2004 3:47 PM
        Subject: [XP] Re: Offshoring XP


        > Hi Ron,
        >
        > > I think offshoring is more a response to dissatisfaction with
        > > the current way than just a response to "cheap programmers".
        >
        > That's my guess, too. IT customers have been frustrated for
        > years by not getting what they wanted. The cost of the
        > not-quite-what-we-wanted software exacerbates the problem, but I
        > think it isn't the main motivator to outsourcing.
        >
        > I think outsourcing and offshoring are silver bullets. They give
        > hope, but don't solve the key problem, which I think is
        > communication. Specifying software means describing business
        > needs with extraordinary precision, and business folks aren't
        > used to talking with that kind of precision. And technical folks
        > often have a hard time putting their technical focus aside so
        > they can clearly hear the business issues. The gulf results in
        > requirements that are either fuzzy or technology-laden or both,
        > resulting in software that doesn't do what the customers wanted,
        > and the frustration builds.
        >
        > So customers look for someone (anyone), somewhere (anywhere) who
        > hasn't proven unable to do this better. Maybe those people way
        > over there... And at least they're cheaper (for the moment)!
        >
        > I don't see outsourcing helping with the key issue, and that's
        > why I think offshoring will go the way of all silver bullets.
        >
        > I think XP could help, because I think it helps with the real
        > problem. For XP to help, we'll need success stories from
        > customers -- lots more of them, and lots more visible. (Success
        > stories from developers won't help much, because IT customers
        > have stopped trusting developers.)

        I've been watching this conversation, and I've come to
        a few conclusions. One is that the average company is
        not capable of managing an IT operation. That is based
        on quite a few years of working for medium to medium
        large companies (with one small company and one very
        large company in there.) I suspect that most of us have
        the same experiance.

        It shouldn't be that surprising. Even if a company is
        good at its core business, software development is
        not likely to be that business, and software development
        poses a number of unique project management challenges.

        The trouble is, the big facilities management and development
        consulting companies aren't that good at it either. There are
        exceptions, but if they were either common or consistent,
        they'd be generating tons of money from very satisfied
        customers, and as far as I can tell, they aren't.

        So there's a market out there for software development
        contractors that can deliver. The difficulty is first, startup
        funding, and second getting the reputation that keeps the
        business rolling in.

        John Roth


        >
        > Dale
        >
      • Alleman, Glen B.
        Dale, My personal opinion is XP will add little to the solution. Not because of XP, but because of the scale of the problem. For large firms (we re 3.5B) the
        Message 3 of 9 , Mar 1, 2004
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          Dale,

          My personal opinion is XP will add little to the solution. Not because
          of XP, but because of the scale of the problem. For large firms (we're
          3.5B) the cost of IT is staggering compared to the benefits in the short
          term. For firms that don't have a critical mass of IT knowledge, demand,
          or capabilities, the realization that costs can be saved on the balanced
          sheet is the first step toward outsourcing. At the end of the day the
          budget issues with IT have to be addressed no matter what the
          intellectual issues with how software is developed.

          The consequences of this approach are not understood in all cases. And
          there are examples of failures. But there are many examples of savings
          as well.

          We work in the outsourcing business for federal government agencies. The
          A-76 initiatives of late identify 100's of millions in savings by simply
          consolidating services from a 3rd party provider.

          We save our agency client millions a year by simply not doing things the
          way they did in the past. The development dollars saved are not trivial,
          but they pale compared to the operational costs of any large IT system.
          For things like ERP and CRM remote operations (shared services) are real
          bookable savings.

          The "productization" of development in outsourced contracts is only one
          of the issues. The absorption of COTS products and there operations are
          the targets of outsourcing. Off shoring and out source are not always
          the same.

          Glen B. Alleman

          -----Original Message-----
          From: Dale Emery [mailto:dale@...]
          Sent: Monday, March 01, 2004 1:47 PM
          To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [XP] Re: Offshoring XP

          Hi Ron,

          > I think offshoring is more a response to dissatisfaction with
          > the current way than just a response to "cheap programmers".

          That's my guess, too. IT customers have been frustrated for
          years by not getting what they wanted. The cost of the
          not-quite-what-we-wanted software exacerbates the problem, but I
          think it isn't the main motivator to outsourcing.

          I think outsourcing and offshoring are silver bullets. They give
          hope, but don't solve the key problem, which I think is
          communication. Specifying software means describing business
          needs with extraordinary precision, and business folks aren't
          used to talking with that kind of precision. And technical folks
          often have a hard time putting their technical focus aside so
          they can clearly hear the business issues. The gulf results in
          requirements that are either fuzzy or technology-laden or both,
          resulting in software that doesn't do what the customers wanted,
          and the frustration builds.

          So customers look for someone (anyone), somewhere (anywhere) who
          hasn't proven unable to do this better. Maybe those people way
          over there... And at least they're cheaper (for the moment)!

          I don't see outsourcing helping with the key issue, and that's
          why I think offshoring will go the way of all silver bullets.

          I think XP could help, because I think it helps with the real
          problem. For XP to help, we'll need success stories from
          customers -- lots more of them, and lots more visible. (Success
          stories from developers won't help much, because IT customers
          have stopped trusting developers.)

          Dale

          --
          Dale Emery -- Consultant -- Resistance as a Resource
          Web: http://www.dhemery.com
          Weblog: http://www.dhemery.com/cwd (Conversations with Dale)

          We are confronted by insurmountable opportunity. --Walt Kelly


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        • PaulOldfield1@compuserve.com
          (adding to John Roth) ... Third, growing the company without losing the ability to deliver. Fourth, knowing which projects are beyond the current capabilities
          Message 4 of 9 , Mar 1, 2004
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            (adding to John Roth)

            > So there's a market out there for software development
            > contractors that can deliver. The difficulty is first, startup
            > funding, and second getting the reputation that keeps the
            > business rolling in.

            Third, growing the company without losing the ability to
            deliver. Fourth, knowing which projects are beyond the
            current capabilities of the company.

            Paul Oldfield.
          • Steven Gordon
            Fifth, knowing which customers are not to be trusted to faithfully fulfill the customer role (no matter what your capabilities are). ... From:
            Message 5 of 9 , Mar 1, 2004
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              Fifth, knowing which customers are not to be trusted to faithfully fulfill the customer role (no matter what your capabilities are).

              -----Original Message-----
              From: PaulOldfield1@... [mailto:PaulOldfield1@...]
              Sent: Tue 3/2/2004 12:21 AM
              To: XP forum
              Cc:
              Subject: Re: [XP] Re: Offshoring XP

              (adding to John Roth)

              > So there's a market out there for software development
              > contractors that can deliver. The difficulty is first, startup
              > funding, and second getting the reputation that keeps the
              > business rolling in.

              Third, growing the company without losing the ability to
              deliver. Fourth, knowing which projects are beyond the
              current capabilities of the company.

              Paul Oldfield.


              To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...

              To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...

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