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Re: [XP] Offshoring XP

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  • jrb32002
    ... Maybe it s me not understanding the more usual applications of courage as a value. To me, it takes courage on the *Customer* side (where the offshoring
    Message 1 of 112 , Mar 1, 2004
      --- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Ropa"
      <theropas2@c...> wrote:
      > I don't see why offshoring would necessarily affect courage.

      Maybe it's me not understanding the more usual applications of
      'courage' as a value. To me, it takes courage on the *Customer* side
      (where the offshoring decision is made) to keep it onshore --
      foregoing the off-chance of lowering costs somewhat, to have a better
      eye on what's going on and more chances to prevent errors and roadblocks.

      I would also consider it "foolhardy" (misapplied or false courage)
      for a company to off-shore development of mission-critical or
      business-critical systems. It comes down precisely to the lag time in
      communications, and the resulting loss of awareness of impending
      problems which can (and do) trip up entire companies.


      > Are we perhaps applying the
      > negatives that we see when working in our industry in general just
      because
      > offshoring is something we fear?

      I do not so much fear it, as its misuse.

      Joseph Beckenbach
      lead XP tester, Eidogen Inc.
    • Steve Ropa
      Yes, I should clarify. I came on board after the initial hiring decision was made. I had the perception that the team was too high ceremony, and the team
      Message 112 of 112 , Mar 3, 2004
        Yes, I should clarify. I came on board after the initial "hiring" decision
        was made. I had the perception that the team was too high ceremony, and the
        team had the perception that my company requires high ceremony. Luckily, we
        quickly found out that we were kindred spirits in Agility.

        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: Saif Ahmad [mailto:sahmad@...]
        > Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 2004 12:43 AM
        > To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
        > Subject: RE: [XP] Offshoring XP
        >
        >
        > Steve,
        > High ceremony lends itself to the unnecessary and undue
        > reverence most customers attach to thick piles of process documents;
        > process certifications and 'structured development'
        >
        > Referring specifically to the context that you are talking about; I was
        > quizzed on what 'documentations' we maintain; are we CMM processes'
        > compliant!
        >
        > Of course down the line it was more a case of getting used to the
        > 'pitch'; communication, more than anything else, facilitated the
        > offshore/onsite collaboration wonderfully
        >
        > While we developed our unique paradigm of agility whilst still retaining
        > the leverage of patterns driven development; (of course factoring in TDD
        > to evolve the same on need basis)
        >
        > And most importantly this has been one wonderful showcase for offshoring
        > wherein the focus has been on maximizing throughput and delivery by
        > leveraging a 24X7 delivery model rather than any migration of jobs!
        >
        > I wonder why people can't evolve a model where more gets done in the
        > same time by having two teams across opposite timezones work on same
        > deliverables
        >
        > I am sure lot has been said about communication and logistics overhead.
        > Honestly, there is no fixed formula to handle that; lot of it is
        > situational and contextual; involves elements of interpersonal skills
        > and rapport. However, if you have few willing and enterprising
        > individuals on either side of the engagement, it works out wonderfully
        > well
        >
        > Saif
        >
        >
        >
        > Saif Ahmad
        > Country Manager
        > Xavient Technologies
        > A/57 Sector 2 NOIDA
        > Phone-91-120-2539114
        > Fax-91-120-2539102
        > Mobile-+91-9818205196 (from US-+1.805.955.4414)
        > -US-+1.818.324.6062
        > email- sahmad@...
        >
        >
        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: Steve Ropa [mailto:theropas2@...]
        > Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 2004 10:24 AM
        > To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
        > Subject: RE: [XP] Offshoring XP
        >
        >
        > Oh, that I shall. But the point I was getting, was that if XP works in
        > one
        > case, why can't it work in the other?
        >
        > It's an interesting dichotomy. The offshore team, when I first met
        > them,
        > were a little too high ceremony, and I was afraid that nothing would
        > ever
        > get produced but paperwork. The other team is essentially code 'n fix.
        > Its
        > sort of a Tale of Two Vendors. Let's see...It was the best of code, it
        > was
        > the worst of code. There were objects that were tightly coupled, there
        > were
        > objects that were loosely coupled.....
        >
        > > -----Original Message-----
        > > From: Ron Jeffries [mailto:ronjeffries@...]
        > > Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2004 6:57 PM
        > > To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
        > > Subject: Re: [XP] Offshoring XP
        > >
        > >
        > > On Tuesday, March 2, 2004, at 7:39:59 PM, Steve Ropa wrote:
        > >
        > > > You know, after reading this, and my response that I just
        > > posted, I realized
        > > > that you guys have every right to jump on me for failing the
        > > "courage test".
        > > > I won't need to go quite as far as you stated, but I will this
        > > week start
        > > > giving this vendor his "this is working well in India, I would
        > > like you to
        > > > do the same."
        > >
        > > Well, OK ... on the other hand, you pointed out that your boss won't
        > hear
        > > anything bad about these guys, and that they have you by the um.
        > >
        > > So tread lightly, not just bravely.
        > >
        > > Ron Jeffries
        > > www.XProgramming.com
        > > You don't need to see my identification.
        > > These aren't the ideas you're looking for. Move along.
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        >
        >
        >
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