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RE: [XP] Re: Offshoring XP

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  • Tony Nassar
    I believe the history of CNC provides similar examples: it was *not* initially advantageous to replace skilled workers with hugely expensive CNC machines; it
    Message 1 of 9 , Mar 1, 2004
      I believe the history of CNC provides similar examples: it was *not*
      initially advantageous to replace skilled workers with hugely expensive
      CNC machines; it was assumed that it would become so, and breaking
      unions would probably be an additional boon.

      > So, what I think is unethical is not the practice itself if it
      > actually worked, but the use of a practice, lying about it,
      > and then putting people here out of work because of lies. That is
      > unethical. I have the naive hope that the managers in those
      > situations would be found out and dealt with. I doubt that
      > will happen.
    • yahoogroups@jhrothjr.com
      From: Kay A. Pentecost Sent: Monday, March 01, 2004 2:26 PM Subject: RE: [XP] Re: Offshoring XP ...
      Message 2 of 9 , Mar 1, 2004
        From: "Kay A. Pentecost"
        <tranzpupy.at.ix.netcom.com@...>
        Sent: Monday, March 01, 2004 2:26 PM
        Subject: RE: [XP] Re: Offshoring XP


        > Hi, Keith,
        >
        > > -----Original Message-----
        > > From: Keith Ray [mailto:keithray@...]
        > > Sent: Saturday, February 28, 2004 11:09 AM
        > > To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
        > > Subject: Re: [XP] Re: Offshoring XP
        > <snip>
        > >
        > > Europe's privacy laws are far more stringent than the US.
        >
        > Are you counting India and Latvia as Europe?

        Why would he? I presumed he meant the EU,
        which has the privacy laws he specified.

        John Roth

        >
        > Just curious,
        >
        > Kay
        >
        >
        >
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      • David Putman
        From: Kay A. Pentecost ... Hi Kay Latvia is a Baltic country in Northern Europe. About ... This year Latvia will become a full
        Message 3 of 9 , Mar 1, 2004
          From: "Kay A. Pentecost" <tranzpupy@...>
          > Hi, Keith,
          >
          > > -----Original Message-----
          > > From: Keith Ray [mailto:keithray@...]
          > > Sent: Saturday, February 28, 2004 11:09 AM
          > > To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
          > > Subject: Re: [XP] Re: Offshoring XP
          > <snip>
          > >
          > > Europe's privacy laws are far more stringent than the US.
          >
          > Are you counting India and Latvia as Europe?
          >
          > Just curious,
          >

          Hi Kay

          Latvia is a Baltic country in Northern Europe. About ... This year Latvia
          will become a full member of NATO and the European Union.

          Not sure about India :)

          Dave P
        • yahoogroups@jhrothjr.com
          From: Dale Emery Sent: Monday, March 01, 2004 3:47 PM Subject: [XP] Re: Offshoring XP ... I ve been
          Message 4 of 9 , Mar 1, 2004
            From: "Dale Emery" <dale.at.dhemery.com@...>
            Sent: Monday, March 01, 2004 3:47 PM
            Subject: [XP] Re: Offshoring XP


            > Hi Ron,
            >
            > > I think offshoring is more a response to dissatisfaction with
            > > the current way than just a response to "cheap programmers".
            >
            > That's my guess, too. IT customers have been frustrated for
            > years by not getting what they wanted. The cost of the
            > not-quite-what-we-wanted software exacerbates the problem, but I
            > think it isn't the main motivator to outsourcing.
            >
            > I think outsourcing and offshoring are silver bullets. They give
            > hope, but don't solve the key problem, which I think is
            > communication. Specifying software means describing business
            > needs with extraordinary precision, and business folks aren't
            > used to talking with that kind of precision. And technical folks
            > often have a hard time putting their technical focus aside so
            > they can clearly hear the business issues. The gulf results in
            > requirements that are either fuzzy or technology-laden or both,
            > resulting in software that doesn't do what the customers wanted,
            > and the frustration builds.
            >
            > So customers look for someone (anyone), somewhere (anywhere) who
            > hasn't proven unable to do this better. Maybe those people way
            > over there... And at least they're cheaper (for the moment)!
            >
            > I don't see outsourcing helping with the key issue, and that's
            > why I think offshoring will go the way of all silver bullets.
            >
            > I think XP could help, because I think it helps with the real
            > problem. For XP to help, we'll need success stories from
            > customers -- lots more of them, and lots more visible. (Success
            > stories from developers won't help much, because IT customers
            > have stopped trusting developers.)

            I've been watching this conversation, and I've come to
            a few conclusions. One is that the average company is
            not capable of managing an IT operation. That is based
            on quite a few years of working for medium to medium
            large companies (with one small company and one very
            large company in there.) I suspect that most of us have
            the same experiance.

            It shouldn't be that surprising. Even if a company is
            good at its core business, software development is
            not likely to be that business, and software development
            poses a number of unique project management challenges.

            The trouble is, the big facilities management and development
            consulting companies aren't that good at it either. There are
            exceptions, but if they were either common or consistent,
            they'd be generating tons of money from very satisfied
            customers, and as far as I can tell, they aren't.

            So there's a market out there for software development
            contractors that can deliver. The difficulty is first, startup
            funding, and second getting the reputation that keeps the
            business rolling in.

            John Roth


            >
            > Dale
            >
          • Alleman, Glen B.
            Dale, My personal opinion is XP will add little to the solution. Not because of XP, but because of the scale of the problem. For large firms (we re 3.5B) the
            Message 5 of 9 , Mar 1, 2004
              Dale,

              My personal opinion is XP will add little to the solution. Not because
              of XP, but because of the scale of the problem. For large firms (we're
              3.5B) the cost of IT is staggering compared to the benefits in the short
              term. For firms that don't have a critical mass of IT knowledge, demand,
              or capabilities, the realization that costs can be saved on the balanced
              sheet is the first step toward outsourcing. At the end of the day the
              budget issues with IT have to be addressed no matter what the
              intellectual issues with how software is developed.

              The consequences of this approach are not understood in all cases. And
              there are examples of failures. But there are many examples of savings
              as well.

              We work in the outsourcing business for federal government agencies. The
              A-76 initiatives of late identify 100's of millions in savings by simply
              consolidating services from a 3rd party provider.

              We save our agency client millions a year by simply not doing things the
              way they did in the past. The development dollars saved are not trivial,
              but they pale compared to the operational costs of any large IT system.
              For things like ERP and CRM remote operations (shared services) are real
              bookable savings.

              The "productization" of development in outsourced contracts is only one
              of the issues. The absorption of COTS products and there operations are
              the targets of outsourcing. Off shoring and out source are not always
              the same.

              Glen B. Alleman

              -----Original Message-----
              From: Dale Emery [mailto:dale@...]
              Sent: Monday, March 01, 2004 1:47 PM
              To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: [XP] Re: Offshoring XP

              Hi Ron,

              > I think offshoring is more a response to dissatisfaction with
              > the current way than just a response to "cheap programmers".

              That's my guess, too. IT customers have been frustrated for
              years by not getting what they wanted. The cost of the
              not-quite-what-we-wanted software exacerbates the problem, but I
              think it isn't the main motivator to outsourcing.

              I think outsourcing and offshoring are silver bullets. They give
              hope, but don't solve the key problem, which I think is
              communication. Specifying software means describing business
              needs with extraordinary precision, and business folks aren't
              used to talking with that kind of precision. And technical folks
              often have a hard time putting their technical focus aside so
              they can clearly hear the business issues. The gulf results in
              requirements that are either fuzzy or technology-laden or both,
              resulting in software that doesn't do what the customers wanted,
              and the frustration builds.

              So customers look for someone (anyone), somewhere (anywhere) who
              hasn't proven unable to do this better. Maybe those people way
              over there... And at least they're cheaper (for the moment)!

              I don't see outsourcing helping with the key issue, and that's
              why I think offshoring will go the way of all silver bullets.

              I think XP could help, because I think it helps with the real
              problem. For XP to help, we'll need success stories from
              customers -- lots more of them, and lots more visible. (Success
              stories from developers won't help much, because IT customers
              have stopped trusting developers.)

              Dale

              --
              Dale Emery -- Consultant -- Resistance as a Resource
              Web: http://www.dhemery.com
              Weblog: http://www.dhemery.com/cwd (Conversations with Dale)

              We are confronted by insurmountable opportunity. --Walt Kelly


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            • PaulOldfield1@compuserve.com
              (adding to John Roth) ... Third, growing the company without losing the ability to deliver. Fourth, knowing which projects are beyond the current capabilities
              Message 6 of 9 , Mar 1, 2004
                (adding to John Roth)

                > So there's a market out there for software development
                > contractors that can deliver. The difficulty is first, startup
                > funding, and second getting the reputation that keeps the
                > business rolling in.

                Third, growing the company without losing the ability to
                deliver. Fourth, knowing which projects are beyond the
                current capabilities of the company.

                Paul Oldfield.
              • Steven Gordon
                Fifth, knowing which customers are not to be trusted to faithfully fulfill the customer role (no matter what your capabilities are). ... From:
                Message 7 of 9 , Mar 1, 2004
                  Fifth, knowing which customers are not to be trusted to faithfully fulfill the customer role (no matter what your capabilities are).

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: PaulOldfield1@... [mailto:PaulOldfield1@...]
                  Sent: Tue 3/2/2004 12:21 AM
                  To: XP forum
                  Cc:
                  Subject: Re: [XP] Re: Offshoring XP

                  (adding to John Roth)

                  > So there's a market out there for software development
                  > contractors that can deliver. The difficulty is first, startup
                  > funding, and second getting the reputation that keeps the
                  > business rolling in.

                  Third, growing the company without losing the ability to
                  deliver. Fourth, knowing which projects are beyond the
                  current capabilities of the company.

                  Paul Oldfield.


                  To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...

                  To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...

                  ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.com
                  Yahoo! Groups Links










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