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Re: [XP] Re: Offshoring XP

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  • Ron Jeffries
    ... Not entirely. Mostly that I choose to take certain positions. But partly, yes. I know people who have put their entire lives into working for some company,
    Message 1 of 112 , Mar 1, 2004
      On Monday, March 1, 2004, at 3:59:44 AM, kentlbeck wrote:

      > Did you mean to imply that offshoring, selling cancer-causing
      > products, and pushing drugs occupy similar moral positions?

      Not entirely. Mostly that I choose to take certain positions.
      But partly, yes. I know people who have put their entire lives into working
      for some company, only to have the company decide that it'll do better if
      they are laid off. While this is what companies do, and it is their right
      to do so, I don't like the behavior and prefer not to support it.

      > My observation is that IT jobs dried up before offshoring really
      > took off.

      Definitely ...

      > I conclude that lack of value created by software
      > development and lack of communicating value created by software
      > development have much more of a correlation with the disappearance
      > of American IT jobs than the availability of inexpensive programmers
      > elsewhere.

      Yes. I think offshoring is more a response to dissatisfaction with the
      current way than just a response to "cheap programmers". I don't think it's
      the best response, but that's a separate topic.

      > There are going to be educated programmers everywhere,
      > some more expensive and some less. There are none of them I would
      > not want to feel welcomed in the XP community and benefit from
      > applying XP. XP is not an exclusively American thing.

      Yes, I completely agree. XP is good for people, and it shouldn't be
      exclusive.

      As I tried to make clear, my desire not to support companies in their
      offshoring efforts is a personal position, not an XP one. I don't like what
      they're doing, I'm not convinced that it is optimal (or even an
      improvement) and to the extent that I'm not forced into it by need for
      another car, I'd like not to support it.

      > Programming jobs are not a zero-sum game. Forty years ago you were
      > the only professional programmer :-)

      Actually I was taught by a professional programmer, and it was more than 40
      years ago. That was right about the same time that I was being trained by
      Jesuits, and after I was raised by wolves.

      But you're right, there were few of us, I guess. Frankly, I think we knew
      more then than people do now. On the other hand, I thought that *I* knew
      more then than I think I know now ...

      > Increasing the value of all
      > software development is in all our best interest.

      I agree. And while I have the luxury of a bit of choice on where to
      increase value, I'll continue to focus close to home.

      Nice to hear from you, by the way.

      Ron Jeffries
      www.XProgramming.com
      Fear is the mindkiller. --Bene Gesserit Litany Against Fear
    • Steve Ropa
      Yes, I should clarify. I came on board after the initial hiring decision was made. I had the perception that the team was too high ceremony, and the team
      Message 112 of 112 , Mar 3, 2004
        Yes, I should clarify. I came on board after the initial "hiring" decision
        was made. I had the perception that the team was too high ceremony, and the
        team had the perception that my company requires high ceremony. Luckily, we
        quickly found out that we were kindred spirits in Agility.

        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: Saif Ahmad [mailto:sahmad@...]
        > Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 2004 12:43 AM
        > To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
        > Subject: RE: [XP] Offshoring XP
        >
        >
        > Steve,
        > High ceremony lends itself to the unnecessary and undue
        > reverence most customers attach to thick piles of process documents;
        > process certifications and 'structured development'
        >
        > Referring specifically to the context that you are talking about; I was
        > quizzed on what 'documentations' we maintain; are we CMM processes'
        > compliant!
        >
        > Of course down the line it was more a case of getting used to the
        > 'pitch'; communication, more than anything else, facilitated the
        > offshore/onsite collaboration wonderfully
        >
        > While we developed our unique paradigm of agility whilst still retaining
        > the leverage of patterns driven development; (of course factoring in TDD
        > to evolve the same on need basis)
        >
        > And most importantly this has been one wonderful showcase for offshoring
        > wherein the focus has been on maximizing throughput and delivery by
        > leveraging a 24X7 delivery model rather than any migration of jobs!
        >
        > I wonder why people can't evolve a model where more gets done in the
        > same time by having two teams across opposite timezones work on same
        > deliverables
        >
        > I am sure lot has been said about communication and logistics overhead.
        > Honestly, there is no fixed formula to handle that; lot of it is
        > situational and contextual; involves elements of interpersonal skills
        > and rapport. However, if you have few willing and enterprising
        > individuals on either side of the engagement, it works out wonderfully
        > well
        >
        > Saif
        >
        >
        >
        > Saif Ahmad
        > Country Manager
        > Xavient Technologies
        > A/57 Sector 2 NOIDA
        > Phone-91-120-2539114
        > Fax-91-120-2539102
        > Mobile-+91-9818205196 (from US-+1.805.955.4414)
        > -US-+1.818.324.6062
        > email- sahmad@...
        >
        >
        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: Steve Ropa [mailto:theropas2@...]
        > Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 2004 10:24 AM
        > To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
        > Subject: RE: [XP] Offshoring XP
        >
        >
        > Oh, that I shall. But the point I was getting, was that if XP works in
        > one
        > case, why can't it work in the other?
        >
        > It's an interesting dichotomy. The offshore team, when I first met
        > them,
        > were a little too high ceremony, and I was afraid that nothing would
        > ever
        > get produced but paperwork. The other team is essentially code 'n fix.
        > Its
        > sort of a Tale of Two Vendors. Let's see...It was the best of code, it
        > was
        > the worst of code. There were objects that were tightly coupled, there
        > were
        > objects that were loosely coupled.....
        >
        > > -----Original Message-----
        > > From: Ron Jeffries [mailto:ronjeffries@...]
        > > Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2004 6:57 PM
        > > To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
        > > Subject: Re: [XP] Offshoring XP
        > >
        > >
        > > On Tuesday, March 2, 2004, at 7:39:59 PM, Steve Ropa wrote:
        > >
        > > > You know, after reading this, and my response that I just
        > > posted, I realized
        > > > that you guys have every right to jump on me for failing the
        > > "courage test".
        > > > I won't need to go quite as far as you stated, but I will this
        > > week start
        > > > giving this vendor his "this is working well in India, I would
        > > like you to
        > > > do the same."
        > >
        > > Well, OK ... on the other hand, you pointed out that your boss won't
        > hear
        > > anything bad about these guys, and that they have you by the um.
        > >
        > > So tread lightly, not just bravely.
        > >
        > > Ron Jeffries
        > > www.XProgramming.com
        > > You don't need to see my identification.
        > > These aren't the ideas you're looking for. Move along.
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        >
        >
        >
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