Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

RE: [XP] Re: Offshoring XP

Expand Messages
  • Tim Haughton (OmniBus - Stanford)
    ... Power you say? I perhaps I need to twiddle my moustache a little and ruminate on this one. I always had it down as the vanity of the developers. Afterall,
    Message 1 of 9 , Feb 27 1:20 AM
    • 0 Attachment
      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: Dale Emery [mailto:dale@...]
      >
      > > I think XP has a perculiar effect on people, they want to say
      > > that XP is what they're doing, but they want to bend it until
      > > it doesn't look like XP anymore. So why not call it something
      > > else?
      >
      > Perhaps they want to keep the name for the same reason you want
      > them to change it: The name has power.

      Power you say?

      I perhaps I need to twiddle my moustache a little and ruminate on this one. I always had it down as the vanity of the developers. Afterall, developers that follow the RUP wear open toed sandals and and have beards and suffer with halitosis. Developers who follow XP snow board, have pierced nipples and the sexual capacity of a rutting rhino.

      >
      > Dale
      >

      Regards,

      Supreme Overlord of XP
      Keeper of the Words of Power

      Tim H
    • yahoogroups@jhrothjr.com
      From: Dale Emery Sent: Friday, February 27, 2004 7:34 PM Subject: [XP] Re: Offshoring XP ... The usual
      Message 2 of 9 , Feb 27 4:51 PM
      • 0 Attachment
        From: "Dale Emery" <dale.at.dhemery.com@...>
        Sent: Friday, February 27, 2004 7:34 PM
        Subject: [XP] Re: Offshoring XP


        > Hi Victor,
        >
        > > However, fairness is not the principal motivator in most
        > > trader's minds.
        >
        > Nor is it crisply defined.
        >
        > > Fairness means that all sides in a trading transaction have
        > > roughly balanced freedom and power to decide whether or not to
        > > proceed with the transaction. Impoverishing is not
        > > empowering. When high percentages of a population are being
        > > impoverished because of government policies, they are being
        > > robbed of their freedom of free choice and free trade.
        >
        > If one government is reducing its people's freedom of choice,
        > what would another government do to balance that freedom? I can
        > think of only two possibilities: Negotiate with the first
        > government to increase its people's freedom, or reduce the
        > freedom of its own people. I don't like the second option. If
        > negotiating works, that's good. If not... then what? Are there
        > options I haven't thought of?

        The usual result is that either people leave the first
        country for the second, or the first country has to
        put up serious barriers for exit. Or else the people
        are happy with the situation.

        Large scale migration is a good measurement.
        It's reasonably easy to count bodies.

        In the first case, you can make a decent case that
        country A flooding country B with people that don't
        really want to be there is an act of war. Of course,
        if country B has a "the more immigrants the better"
        philosophy, it's kind of hard to take that stance.

        John Roth

        >
        > Dale
        >
        > --
        > Dale Emery -- Consultant -- Resistance as a Resource
      • Tony Nassar
        I believe the history of CNC provides similar examples: it was *not* initially advantageous to replace skilled workers with hugely expensive CNC machines; it
        Message 3 of 9 , Mar 1, 2004
        • 0 Attachment
          I believe the history of CNC provides similar examples: it was *not*
          initially advantageous to replace skilled workers with hugely expensive
          CNC machines; it was assumed that it would become so, and breaking
          unions would probably be an additional boon.

          > So, what I think is unethical is not the practice itself if it
          > actually worked, but the use of a practice, lying about it,
          > and then putting people here out of work because of lies. That is
          > unethical. I have the naive hope that the managers in those
          > situations would be found out and dealt with. I doubt that
          > will happen.
        • yahoogroups@jhrothjr.com
          From: Kay A. Pentecost Sent: Monday, March 01, 2004 2:26 PM Subject: RE: [XP] Re: Offshoring XP ...
          Message 4 of 9 , Mar 1, 2004
          • 0 Attachment
            From: "Kay A. Pentecost"
            <tranzpupy.at.ix.netcom.com@...>
            Sent: Monday, March 01, 2004 2:26 PM
            Subject: RE: [XP] Re: Offshoring XP


            > Hi, Keith,
            >
            > > -----Original Message-----
            > > From: Keith Ray [mailto:keithray@...]
            > > Sent: Saturday, February 28, 2004 11:09 AM
            > > To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
            > > Subject: Re: [XP] Re: Offshoring XP
            > <snip>
            > >
            > > Europe's privacy laws are far more stringent than the US.
            >
            > Are you counting India and Latvia as Europe?

            Why would he? I presumed he meant the EU,
            which has the privacy laws he specified.

            John Roth

            >
            > Just curious,
            >
            > Kay
            >
            >
            >
            > To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
            >
            > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
            extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
            >
            > ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.com
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
          • David Putman
            From: Kay A. Pentecost ... Hi Kay Latvia is a Baltic country in Northern Europe. About ... This year Latvia will become a full
            Message 5 of 9 , Mar 1, 2004
            • 0 Attachment
              From: "Kay A. Pentecost" <tranzpupy@...>
              > Hi, Keith,
              >
              > > -----Original Message-----
              > > From: Keith Ray [mailto:keithray@...]
              > > Sent: Saturday, February 28, 2004 11:09 AM
              > > To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
              > > Subject: Re: [XP] Re: Offshoring XP
              > <snip>
              > >
              > > Europe's privacy laws are far more stringent than the US.
              >
              > Are you counting India and Latvia as Europe?
              >
              > Just curious,
              >

              Hi Kay

              Latvia is a Baltic country in Northern Europe. About ... This year Latvia
              will become a full member of NATO and the European Union.

              Not sure about India :)

              Dave P
            • yahoogroups@jhrothjr.com
              From: Dale Emery Sent: Monday, March 01, 2004 3:47 PM Subject: [XP] Re: Offshoring XP ... I ve been
              Message 6 of 9 , Mar 1, 2004
              • 0 Attachment
                From: "Dale Emery" <dale.at.dhemery.com@...>
                Sent: Monday, March 01, 2004 3:47 PM
                Subject: [XP] Re: Offshoring XP


                > Hi Ron,
                >
                > > I think offshoring is more a response to dissatisfaction with
                > > the current way than just a response to "cheap programmers".
                >
                > That's my guess, too. IT customers have been frustrated for
                > years by not getting what they wanted. The cost of the
                > not-quite-what-we-wanted software exacerbates the problem, but I
                > think it isn't the main motivator to outsourcing.
                >
                > I think outsourcing and offshoring are silver bullets. They give
                > hope, but don't solve the key problem, which I think is
                > communication. Specifying software means describing business
                > needs with extraordinary precision, and business folks aren't
                > used to talking with that kind of precision. And technical folks
                > often have a hard time putting their technical focus aside so
                > they can clearly hear the business issues. The gulf results in
                > requirements that are either fuzzy or technology-laden or both,
                > resulting in software that doesn't do what the customers wanted,
                > and the frustration builds.
                >
                > So customers look for someone (anyone), somewhere (anywhere) who
                > hasn't proven unable to do this better. Maybe those people way
                > over there... And at least they're cheaper (for the moment)!
                >
                > I don't see outsourcing helping with the key issue, and that's
                > why I think offshoring will go the way of all silver bullets.
                >
                > I think XP could help, because I think it helps with the real
                > problem. For XP to help, we'll need success stories from
                > customers -- lots more of them, and lots more visible. (Success
                > stories from developers won't help much, because IT customers
                > have stopped trusting developers.)

                I've been watching this conversation, and I've come to
                a few conclusions. One is that the average company is
                not capable of managing an IT operation. That is based
                on quite a few years of working for medium to medium
                large companies (with one small company and one very
                large company in there.) I suspect that most of us have
                the same experiance.

                It shouldn't be that surprising. Even if a company is
                good at its core business, software development is
                not likely to be that business, and software development
                poses a number of unique project management challenges.

                The trouble is, the big facilities management and development
                consulting companies aren't that good at it either. There are
                exceptions, but if they were either common or consistent,
                they'd be generating tons of money from very satisfied
                customers, and as far as I can tell, they aren't.

                So there's a market out there for software development
                contractors that can deliver. The difficulty is first, startup
                funding, and second getting the reputation that keeps the
                business rolling in.

                John Roth


                >
                > Dale
                >
              • Alleman, Glen B.
                Dale, My personal opinion is XP will add little to the solution. Not because of XP, but because of the scale of the problem. For large firms (we re 3.5B) the
                Message 7 of 9 , Mar 1, 2004
                • 0 Attachment
                  Dale,

                  My personal opinion is XP will add little to the solution. Not because
                  of XP, but because of the scale of the problem. For large firms (we're
                  3.5B) the cost of IT is staggering compared to the benefits in the short
                  term. For firms that don't have a critical mass of IT knowledge, demand,
                  or capabilities, the realization that costs can be saved on the balanced
                  sheet is the first step toward outsourcing. At the end of the day the
                  budget issues with IT have to be addressed no matter what the
                  intellectual issues with how software is developed.

                  The consequences of this approach are not understood in all cases. And
                  there are examples of failures. But there are many examples of savings
                  as well.

                  We work in the outsourcing business for federal government agencies. The
                  A-76 initiatives of late identify 100's of millions in savings by simply
                  consolidating services from a 3rd party provider.

                  We save our agency client millions a year by simply not doing things the
                  way they did in the past. The development dollars saved are not trivial,
                  but they pale compared to the operational costs of any large IT system.
                  For things like ERP and CRM remote operations (shared services) are real
                  bookable savings.

                  The "productization" of development in outsourced contracts is only one
                  of the issues. The absorption of COTS products and there operations are
                  the targets of outsourcing. Off shoring and out source are not always
                  the same.

                  Glen B. Alleman

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: Dale Emery [mailto:dale@...]
                  Sent: Monday, March 01, 2004 1:47 PM
                  To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: [XP] Re: Offshoring XP

                  Hi Ron,

                  > I think offshoring is more a response to dissatisfaction with
                  > the current way than just a response to "cheap programmers".

                  That's my guess, too. IT customers have been frustrated for
                  years by not getting what they wanted. The cost of the
                  not-quite-what-we-wanted software exacerbates the problem, but I
                  think it isn't the main motivator to outsourcing.

                  I think outsourcing and offshoring are silver bullets. They give
                  hope, but don't solve the key problem, which I think is
                  communication. Specifying software means describing business
                  needs with extraordinary precision, and business folks aren't
                  used to talking with that kind of precision. And technical folks
                  often have a hard time putting their technical focus aside so
                  they can clearly hear the business issues. The gulf results in
                  requirements that are either fuzzy or technology-laden or both,
                  resulting in software that doesn't do what the customers wanted,
                  and the frustration builds.

                  So customers look for someone (anyone), somewhere (anywhere) who
                  hasn't proven unable to do this better. Maybe those people way
                  over there... And at least they're cheaper (for the moment)!

                  I don't see outsourcing helping with the key issue, and that's
                  why I think offshoring will go the way of all silver bullets.

                  I think XP could help, because I think it helps with the real
                  problem. For XP to help, we'll need success stories from
                  customers -- lots more of them, and lots more visible. (Success
                  stories from developers won't help much, because IT customers
                  have stopped trusting developers.)

                  Dale

                  --
                  Dale Emery -- Consultant -- Resistance as a Resource
                  Web: http://www.dhemery.com
                  Weblog: http://www.dhemery.com/cwd (Conversations with Dale)

                  We are confronted by insurmountable opportunity. --Walt Kelly


                  To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...

                  To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                  extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...

                  ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.com
                  Yahoo! Groups Links
                • PaulOldfield1@compuserve.com
                  (adding to John Roth) ... Third, growing the company without losing the ability to deliver. Fourth, knowing which projects are beyond the current capabilities
                  Message 8 of 9 , Mar 1, 2004
                  • 0 Attachment
                    (adding to John Roth)

                    > So there's a market out there for software development
                    > contractors that can deliver. The difficulty is first, startup
                    > funding, and second getting the reputation that keeps the
                    > business rolling in.

                    Third, growing the company without losing the ability to
                    deliver. Fourth, knowing which projects are beyond the
                    current capabilities of the company.

                    Paul Oldfield.
                  • Steven Gordon
                    Fifth, knowing which customers are not to be trusted to faithfully fulfill the customer role (no matter what your capabilities are). ... From:
                    Message 9 of 9 , Mar 1, 2004
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Fifth, knowing which customers are not to be trusted to faithfully fulfill the customer role (no matter what your capabilities are).

                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: PaulOldfield1@... [mailto:PaulOldfield1@...]
                      Sent: Tue 3/2/2004 12:21 AM
                      To: XP forum
                      Cc:
                      Subject: Re: [XP] Re: Offshoring XP

                      (adding to John Roth)

                      > So there's a market out there for software development
                      > contractors that can deliver. The difficulty is first, startup
                      > funding, and second getting the reputation that keeps the
                      > business rolling in.

                      Third, growing the company without losing the ability to
                      deliver. Fourth, knowing which projects are beyond the
                      current capabilities of the company.

                      Paul Oldfield.


                      To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...

                      To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...

                      ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.com
                      Yahoo! Groups Links










                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.