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RE: [XP] Re: Impedance Mismatch and Agile Adoption - winning the war

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  • Henry Stapp
    Dave Rooney Wrote ... the ... Hi, I agree with you 100%, Dave, but unfortunately I don t think it matters. It seems that we live in an age where low-cost is
    Message 1 of 112 , Feb 25, 2004
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      Dave Rooney Wrote

      >What I have been saying is that moving development across the
      >street from the Customer let alone across the planet is going to impact the

      >quality of the system being developed and will have an adverse effect on
      the
      >development process.

      Hi,

      I agree with you 100%, Dave, but unfortunately I don't think it matters.

      It seems that we live in an age where low-cost is king. Quality of service
      is being sacrificed across the board, from call centers to restaurants and
      retailers, in pursuit of the lowest possible labor costs. Quality in
      software is very hard to quantify - anything above 'barely-good-enough' is
      basically undetectable to the average executive. Cost, on the other hand, is
      something that execs can easily comprehend.

      Also, it's not a clear-cut case that the quality of offshored software is
      inferior. Certainly there are a lot of smart, talented and well-trained
      programmers in India and elsewhere. Their companies can impress potential
      customers with Fortune 500 client lists and CMM Level 5 certifications. In
      addition, most executives have probably had a bad experience or two with
      projects done in America, so the "we're better than them" argument used by
      some is on pretty shaky ground.

      What you're basically left with is the argument that it's better to have
      developers in the same building as the 'customers'. While this may be
      generally accepted truth in the Agile community, it is still the case that,
      for the vast majority of projects that aren't 'Agile', customers rarely talk
      face-to-face with developers anyway. Communications between 'customers' and
      developers, even if they are in the same building, most often happen via
      email, bug-tracking systems, and documents being shuffled to and fro - all
      of which can be done as easily with someone in New Delhi as with someone in
      New Jersey.

      For these reasons, it seems to me that the 'quality' and 'development
      process' arguments aren't going to gain much traction, in the short to
      medium term, against the offshoring trend. I believe that, in those large
      companies where the development of innovative software is not the primary
      focus of the business, the vast majority of development projects will
      inevitably be offshored.

      Thanks for the interesting post, Dave. I'd be interested to know if people
      think I'm completly off base here... what do all you 20-year veterans out
      there have to say?

      Cheers,

      Henry Stapp
    • Steve Ropa
      Yes, I should clarify. I came on board after the initial hiring decision was made. I had the perception that the team was too high ceremony, and the team
      Message 112 of 112 , Mar 3, 2004
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        Yes, I should clarify. I came on board after the initial "hiring" decision
        was made. I had the perception that the team was too high ceremony, and the
        team had the perception that my company requires high ceremony. Luckily, we
        quickly found out that we were kindred spirits in Agility.

        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: Saif Ahmad [mailto:sahmad@...]
        > Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 2004 12:43 AM
        > To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
        > Subject: RE: [XP] Offshoring XP
        >
        >
        > Steve,
        > High ceremony lends itself to the unnecessary and undue
        > reverence most customers attach to thick piles of process documents;
        > process certifications and 'structured development'
        >
        > Referring specifically to the context that you are talking about; I was
        > quizzed on what 'documentations' we maintain; are we CMM processes'
        > compliant!
        >
        > Of course down the line it was more a case of getting used to the
        > 'pitch'; communication, more than anything else, facilitated the
        > offshore/onsite collaboration wonderfully
        >
        > While we developed our unique paradigm of agility whilst still retaining
        > the leverage of patterns driven development; (of course factoring in TDD
        > to evolve the same on need basis)
        >
        > And most importantly this has been one wonderful showcase for offshoring
        > wherein the focus has been on maximizing throughput and delivery by
        > leveraging a 24X7 delivery model rather than any migration of jobs!
        >
        > I wonder why people can't evolve a model where more gets done in the
        > same time by having two teams across opposite timezones work on same
        > deliverables
        >
        > I am sure lot has been said about communication and logistics overhead.
        > Honestly, there is no fixed formula to handle that; lot of it is
        > situational and contextual; involves elements of interpersonal skills
        > and rapport. However, if you have few willing and enterprising
        > individuals on either side of the engagement, it works out wonderfully
        > well
        >
        > Saif
        >
        >
        >
        > Saif Ahmad
        > Country Manager
        > Xavient Technologies
        > A/57 Sector 2 NOIDA
        > Phone-91-120-2539114
        > Fax-91-120-2539102
        > Mobile-+91-9818205196 (from US-+1.805.955.4414)
        > -US-+1.818.324.6062
        > email- sahmad@...
        >
        >
        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: Steve Ropa [mailto:theropas2@...]
        > Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 2004 10:24 AM
        > To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
        > Subject: RE: [XP] Offshoring XP
        >
        >
        > Oh, that I shall. But the point I was getting, was that if XP works in
        > one
        > case, why can't it work in the other?
        >
        > It's an interesting dichotomy. The offshore team, when I first met
        > them,
        > were a little too high ceremony, and I was afraid that nothing would
        > ever
        > get produced but paperwork. The other team is essentially code 'n fix.
        > Its
        > sort of a Tale of Two Vendors. Let's see...It was the best of code, it
        > was
        > the worst of code. There were objects that were tightly coupled, there
        > were
        > objects that were loosely coupled.....
        >
        > > -----Original Message-----
        > > From: Ron Jeffries [mailto:ronjeffries@...]
        > > Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2004 6:57 PM
        > > To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
        > > Subject: Re: [XP] Offshoring XP
        > >
        > >
        > > On Tuesday, March 2, 2004, at 7:39:59 PM, Steve Ropa wrote:
        > >
        > > > You know, after reading this, and my response that I just
        > > posted, I realized
        > > > that you guys have every right to jump on me for failing the
        > > "courage test".
        > > > I won't need to go quite as far as you stated, but I will this
        > > week start
        > > > giving this vendor his "this is working well in India, I would
        > > like you to
        > > > do the same."
        > >
        > > Well, OK ... on the other hand, you pointed out that your boss won't
        > hear
        > > anything bad about these guys, and that they have you by the um.
        > >
        > > So tread lightly, not just bravely.
        > >
        > > Ron Jeffries
        > > www.XProgramming.com
        > > You don't need to see my identification.
        > > These aren't the ideas you're looking for. Move along.
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        >
        >
        >
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