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RE: [XP] "I am afraid one can never fix all the bugs"

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  • Marco Antonio Márquez Gómez
    I have a discusion yesterday with a traditional methodologies guy, he was arguing same about it s to risky to handle the bugs as XP do. I couldn’t catch his
    Message 1 of 28 , Jan 30, 2004
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      I have a discusion yesterday with a traditional methodologies guy, he
      was arguing same about it's to risky to handle the bugs as XP do. I
      couldn’t catch his point, there are a bunch projects developed with
      traditional methodologies with a lot overtime expended to fix all bugs
      found after release is delivered. Whats so difficult to believe that you
      can minimize them by identifying them earlier?

      Marco A. Márquez
      Emergys Mexico
      Software Architect
      marcoamg@...
      www.emergys.com.mx
      Tel. 01 (33) 3818-43-21
      Cel. 01 (33) 3700-17-47


      -----Mensaje original-----
      De: rquinn@... [mailto:rquinn@...]
      Enviado el: Thursday, January 29, 2004 7:10 AM
      Para: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
      Asunto: RE: [XP] "I am afraid one can never fix all the bugs"


      > The other thiing to note about Fowler's article is that the
      > two factors he mentions other than XP are (or should be) well
      > known. "Experianced Project Manager" appears at or near the
      > top of all "top ten success factors" lists from major
      > consultancies that I've seen.
      >
      > Also, the best process in the world is worthless if your
      > developers don't have the discipline to follow it. While he
      > didn't say, I suspect that the ones that were successful at
      > having very low defect rates also thought about what let
      > those defects through, and then fixed the process to keep it
      > from happening again.
      >
      > John Roth
    • Alan Ridlehoover
      ... identifying ... The focus in XP is not identifying [bugs] earlier. The focus in XP is on not introducing bugs into the code at all. Write a test. Write
      Message 2 of 28 , Jan 30, 2004
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        Marco Antonio Márquez Gómez said:
        > Whats so difficult to believe that you can minimize them by
        identifying
        > them earlier?

        The focus in XP is not "identifying [bugs] earlier." The focus in XP is
        on not introducing bugs into the code at all.

        Write a test. Write some code. Refactor.

        alan ridlehoover
        senior developer
        sbi.razorfish
        425 564 8812 direct
        206 412 2526 mobile
        aridlehoover@...
        www.sbigroup.com
      • Ben Aveling
        ... One day you would turn around and say where have all the bugs gone? I have seen this so many times - an impossibly buggy program. At first, it doesn t
        Message 3 of 28 , Jan 30, 2004
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          On 26 Jan 2004 at 14:16, Ron Jeffries wrote:
          > On Monday, January 26, 2004, at 1:23:37 PM, Erik Hanson wrote:
          > > Is it just too hard (or too
          > > expensive) to write a bug-free app of any substantial size?

          > What would happen if you always looked really hard for bugs, and
          > whenever you found one, you immediately fixed it?

          One day you would turn around and say 'where have all the bugs gone?'

          I have seen this so many times - an impossibly buggy program.
          At first, it doesn't seem like you're making any difference, each
          time you fix one bug, you find another. And then suddenly, there
          aren't any more critical bugs, and after a while, there aren't any
          major bugs either.

          The challenge is that you don't know how many bugs. It's like
          climbing a hill when you can't see the top, it can begin to feel like
          there is no end to it all, until you reach it.

          Programs only stay buggy when managers and programmers conspire in
          pretending that bugs don't matter.

          > What would happen if "looking really hard for bugs" meant writing
          > acceptance tests before even starting the code? And what if it meant
          > writing a failing test before every writing any of the code implied by
          > that test?

          > I wonder ...

          No you don't Ron. You know exactly what would happen. :-)

          Regards, Ben A.
        • William Pietri
          ... Wow! That s a perfect way to say it. I want to get that as a tattoo. For several *other* people. William
          Message 4 of 28 , Jan 30, 2004
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            On Fri, 2004-01-30 at 13:40, Ben Aveling wrote:
            > Programs only stay buggy when managers and programmers conspire in
            > pretending that bugs don't matter.

            Wow! That's a perfect way to say it. I want to get that as a tattoo. For
            several *other* people.

            William
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