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RE: Attitudes towards pairing (Re: [XP] re: XP and MVC)

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  • Steve Bate
    ... I m curious. Why won t the customer pay for it? Is the total development cost of a pair perceived to be higher than for just yourself?
    Message 1 of 16 , Jan 1, 2004
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      > From: J. B. Rainsberger [mailto:jbrains@...]
      > Indeed! The only reason I don't have a pair on my current project is
      > that I can't afford it. My customer won't pay for it, and I can't find
      > anyone effective to work free.

      I'm curious. Why won't the customer pay for it? Is the total development
      cost of a pair perceived to be higher than for just yourself?
    • J. B. Rainsberger
      ... Yes. Although my Goal Donor appears to understand Agile quite organically, my Gold Owner is a large corporation and not nearly as progressive. They had a
      Message 2 of 16 , Jan 1, 2004
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        Steve Bate wrote:

        >>From: J. B. Rainsberger [mailto:jbrains@...]
        >>Indeed! The only reason I don't have a pair on my current project is
        >>that I can't afford it. My customer won't pay for it, and I can't find
        >>anyone effective to work free.
        >
        > I'm curious. Why won't the customer pay for it? Is the total development
        > cost of a pair perceived to be higher than for just yourself?

        Yes. Although my Goal Donor appears to understand Agile quite
        organically, my Gold Owner is a large corporation and not nearly as
        progressive.

        They had a fixed cost/time line in mind and have been very good about
        allowing scope to vary. The fixed cost is barely enough to pay for one
        programmer, let alone two. I took the job because I like the nerdly
        prestige of working in Major League Baseball.
        --
        J. B. Rainsberger,
        Diaspar Software Services
        http://www.diasparsoftware.com :: +1 416 791-8603
        Let's write software that people understand
      • Ron Jeffries
        ... Well, if what we say is true, two of you could do it better in half the time, n est pas? Ron Jeffries www.XProgramming.com A man hears what he wants to
        Message 3 of 16 , Jan 1, 2004
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          On Thursday, January 1, 2004, at 3:01:26 PM, J. B. Rainsberger wrote:

          > Steve Bate wrote:

          >>>From: J. B. Rainsberger [mailto:jbrains@...]
          >>>Indeed! The only reason I don't have a pair on my current project is
          >>>that I can't afford it. My customer won't pay for it, and I can't find
          >>>anyone effective to work free.
          >>
          >> I'm curious. Why won't the customer pay for it? Is the total development
          >> cost of a pair perceived to be higher than for just yourself?

          > Yes. Although my Goal Donor appears to understand Agile quite
          > organically, my Gold Owner is a large corporation and not nearly as
          > progressive.

          > They had a fixed cost/time line in mind and have been very good about
          > allowing scope to vary. The fixed cost is barely enough to pay for one
          > programmer, let alone two. I took the job because I like the nerdly
          > prestige of working in Major League Baseball.

          Well, if what we say is true, two of you could do it better in half the
          time, n'est pas?

          Ron Jeffries
          www.XProgramming.com
          A man hears what he wants to hear, and disregards the rest. -- Paul Simon
        • J. B. Rainsberger
          Ron Jeffries wrote: ... Agreed. I suppose there are two possibilities: (1) I didn t have anyone handy to work with; (2) I didn t look hard enough for
          Message 4 of 16 , Jan 2, 2004
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            Ron Jeffries wrote:

            <snip />
            >>They had a fixed cost/time line in mind and have been very good about
            >>allowing scope to vary. The fixed cost is barely enough to pay for one
            >>programmer, let alone two. I took the job because I like the nerdly
            >>prestige of working in Major League Baseball.
            >
            > Well, if what we say is true, two of you could do it better in half the
            > time, n'est pas?

            Agreed. I suppose there are two possibilities: (1) I didn't have anyone
            handy to work with; (2) I didn't look hard enough for someone to work with.

            I regret that choice now. I'm learning.
            --
            J. B. Rainsberger,
            Diaspar Software Services
            http://www.diasparsoftware.com :: +1 416 791-8603
            Let's write software that people understand
          • Brian Christopher Robinson
            ... Maybe you could offer a free or low paying internship. I know as a college student I would much rather have been making minimum wage programming than
            Message 5 of 16 , Jan 6, 2004
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              On Thu, 1 Jan 2004, J. B. Rainsberger wrote:

              > Indeed! The only reason I don't have a pair on my current project is
              > that I can't afford it. My customer won't pay for it, and I can't find
              > anyone effective to work free.
              >
              > I'm /dying/ for a pair. It would have saved me plenty of irritation on
              > this project, I'm quite certain.

              Maybe you could offer a free or low paying internship. I know as a
              college student I would much rather have been making minimum wage
              programming than flipping burgers. If you get a reasonably bright kid
              you could have them doing good work quickly.

              --
              Without requirements, the program is done now. - Ron Jeffries
            • J. B. Rainsberger
              ... I actually /do/ have access to a college-age student who might be interested in participating in an internship. The bad news is that my current contract
              Message 6 of 16 , Jan 6, 2004
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                Brian Christopher Robinson wrote:

                > On Thu, 1 Jan 2004, J. B. Rainsberger wrote:
                >
                >>Indeed! The only reason I don't have a pair on my current project is
                >>that I can't afford it. My customer won't pay for it, and I can't find
                >>anyone effective to work free.
                >>
                >>I'm /dying/ for a pair. It would have saved me plenty of irritation on
                >>this project, I'm quite certain.
                >
                > Maybe you could offer a free or low paying internship. I know as a
                > college student I would much rather have been making minimum wage
                > programming than flipping burgers. If you get a reasonably bright kid
                > you could have them doing good work quickly.

                I actually /do/ have access to a college-age student who might be
                interested in participating in an internship. The bad news is that my
                current contract ends 1/9 and no renewal is expected before May.... Just
                bad timing.

                My concern, though, is that I'd like an experienced person with whom to
                pair. There are a few specific aspects of system design on which I need
                some help, and I'm worried that a college student won't necessarily have
                better answers than I already have. Maybe that's just my ego talking; I
                can't be sure.
                --
                J. B. Rainsberger,
                Diaspar Software Services
                http://www.diasparsoftware.com :: +1 416 791-8603
                Let's write software that people understand
              • Steven Gordon
                Just talking your way through the issues, options, considerations, and tradeoffs with somebody new to the problem often reveals better solutions. Your partner
                Message 7 of 16 , Jan 6, 2004
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                  Just talking your way through the issues, options, considerations, and tradeoffs with somebody new to the problem often reveals better solutions. Your partner does not have to know more than you to contribute.

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: J. B. Rainsberger [mailto:jbrains@...]
                  Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2004 9:53 AM
                  To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: Attitudes towards pairing (Re: [XP] re: XP and MVC)


                  Brian Christopher Robinson wrote:

                  > On Thu, 1 Jan 2004, J. B. Rainsberger wrote:
                  >
                  >>Indeed! The only reason I don't have a pair on my current project is
                  >>that I can't afford it. My customer won't pay for it, and I can't find
                  >>anyone effective to work free.
                  >>
                  >>I'm /dying/ for a pair. It would have saved me plenty of irritation on
                  >>this project, I'm quite certain.
                  >
                  > Maybe you could offer a free or low paying internship. I know as a
                  > college student I would much rather have been making minimum wage
                  > programming than flipping burgers. If you get a reasonably bright kid
                  > you could have them doing good work quickly.

                  I actually /do/ have access to a college-age student who might be
                  interested in participating in an internship. The bad news is that my
                  current contract ends 1/9 and no renewal is expected before May.... Just
                  bad timing.

                  My concern, though, is that I'd like an experienced person with whom to
                  pair. There are a few specific aspects of system design on which I need
                  some help, and I'm worried that a college student won't necessarily have
                  better answers than I already have. Maybe that's just my ego talking; I
                  can't be sure.
                  --
                  J. B. Rainsberger,
                  Diaspar Software Services
                  http://www.diasparsoftware.com :: +1 416 791-8603
                  Let's write software that people understand


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                • J. B. Rainsberger
                  ... I both understand and agree. I really almost want to apprentice on a project, just to close some knowledge gaps. -- J. B. Rainsberger, Diaspar Software
                  Message 8 of 16 , Jan 6, 2004
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                    Steven Gordon wrote:

                    > Just talking your way through the issues, options, considerations, and tradeoffs with somebody new to the problem often reveals better solutions. Your partner does not have to know more than you to contribute.

                    I both understand and agree. I really almost want to apprentice on a
                    project, just to close some knowledge gaps.
                    --
                    J. B. Rainsberger,
                    Diaspar Software Services
                    http://www.diasparsoftware.com :: +1 416 791-8603
                    Let's write software that people understand
                  • Marco Antonio Márquez Gómez
                    Hi there, I think you can t understimate talent or knowledge from a college-age student, they are very receptive and creative and he could be a very good pair.
                    Message 9 of 16 , Jan 9, 2004
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                      Hi there,

                      I think you can't understimate talent or knowledge from a college-age
                      student,
                      they are very receptive and creative and he could be a very good pair.


                      Marco A. Márquez
                      Emergys Mexico
                      Software Architect
                      marcoamg@...
                      www.emergys.com.mx
                      Tel. 01 (33) 3818-43-21
                      Cel. 01 (33) 3700-17-47


                      Steven Gordon wrote:

                      > Just talking your way through the issues, options, considerations, and

                      > tradeoffs with somebody new to the problem often reveals better
                      > solutions. Your partner does not have to know more than you to
                      > contribute.

                      I both understand and agree. I really almost want to apprentice on a
                      project, just to close some knowledge gaps.
                      --
                      J. B. Rainsberger,
                      Diaspar Software Services
                      http://www.diasparsoftware.com :: +1 416 791-8603
                      Let's write software that people understand
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