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re: XP and MVC

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  • smogallstar
    Hey all, I have another probe into XP. I was reading an example in Agile Software Development, which was giving UI querying and output responsibilities to
    Message 1 of 16 , Dec 31, 2003
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      Hey all,

      I have another probe into XP. I was reading an example in "Agile
      Software Development," which was giving UI querying and output
      responsibilities to classes which operated on data. To me this was
      startling, and a turn-off. Certainly, I'd like to "keep things
      simple," (I'm still getting used to how difficult that can actually be
      in code) however I'm not willing to let go of MVC. No matter how well
      abstracted, I can't see myself getting rid of MVC for some other input
      method. Doesn't this practice also violate SRP? I know that most
      things in XP are flexible, but on MVC I would like some input or
      clarification.

      Thanks for any and all comments,
      Sean
    • John Brewer
      ... I wouldn t not use MVC, but I wouldn t put it in prematurely. Test-driven development almost always drives you to model-view separation, because you need a
      Message 2 of 16 , Dec 31, 2003
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        > I have another probe into XP. I was reading an example in "Agile
        >Software Development," which was giving UI querying and output
        >responsibilities to classes which operated on data. To me this was
        >startling, and a turn-off. Certainly, I'd like to "keep things
        >simple," (I'm still getting used to how difficult that can actually be
        >in code) however I'm not willing to let go of MVC. No matter how well
        >abstracted, I can't see myself getting rid of MVC for some other input
        >method. Doesn't this practice also violate SRP? I know that most
        >things in XP are flexible, but on MVC I would like some input or
        >clarification.

        I wouldn't not use MVC, but I wouldn't put it in prematurely.
        Test-driven development almost always drives you to model-view
        separation, because you need a way to test the model in isolation
        from the GUI.

        BTW, you seem to be reading from Robert Martin's book "Agile Software
        Development" (Alistair Cockburn has another book by the same title).
        While that book has some good sections, it's not really canonical XP,
        and some of the examples (at least in the draft I read) were
        downright bizarre. To get a better overview of XP, I'd recommend you
        get Kent Beck's book "Extreme Programming Explained". You might also
        want to pick up "Test Driven Development by Example", also by Kent
        Beck.

        In general, don't believe anyone who tells you that XP says to do
        anything stupid. Counterintuitive, yes. Stupid no.
        --

        John Brewer
        Jera Design

        Extreme Programming FAQ: http://www.jera.com/techinfo/xpfaq.html
      • yahoogroups@jhrothjr.com
        From: smogallstar Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2003 6:05 PM Subject: [XP] re: XP and MVC ... I
        Message 3 of 16 , Dec 31, 2003
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          From: "smogallstar" <smogallstar.at.yahoo.com@...>
          Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2003 6:05 PM
          Subject: [XP] re: XP and MVC


          > Hey all,
          >
          > I have another probe into XP. I was reading an example in "Agile
          > Software Development," which was giving UI querying and output
          > responsibilities to classes which operated on data. To me this was
          > startling, and a turn-off. Certainly, I'd like to "keep things
          > simple," (I'm still getting used to how difficult that can actually be
          > in code) however I'm not willing to let go of MVC. No matter how well
          > abstracted, I can't see myself getting rid of MVC for some other input
          > method. Doesn't this practice also violate SRP? I know that most
          > things in XP are flexible, but on MVC I would like some input or
          > clarification.
          >
          > Thanks for any and all comments,
          > Sean

          I thoroughly agree. Effective customer (acceptance) testing
          *requires* using a variant of the MVC pattern. Different people
          have different ways of saying it, but the crux of the issue is that
          the View classes should be very thin facades over the corresponding
          Model, Controller, Application or whatever you want to call them
          classes. The View class responsibilities should be restricted to mapping
          the underlying domain class (singular - there should be a 1 to 1
          correspondance at this point) using the GUI toolkit.

          One of the reasons for this (although not the only one) is that
          the most effective customer testing tools at this time go into the
          layer immediately *below* the View layer. See fit.c2.com and
          www.fitnesse.org.

          If you do this, then the View classes will be relatively stable
          in the face of changes elsewhere so that manual testing (possibly
          as part of usability testing) won't hurt as much as otherwise.
          You can, of course, productively use screen scraper type tools
          on them if you mock out the underlying domain classes. The
          thing to avoid like the plague is the temptation to test the
          application itself through the user interface.

          Another point to ponder here is that, if you pursue Simple Design
          by relentlessly pursuing and eliminating all duplication, the MVC
          pattern will spontaniously appear, complete with the ancilliary
          notifier/listener patterns. Strange, but it has been reported.

          As a final point, XP does not have very much to do with the
          actual structure of your application beyond recommending
          that you apply the Simple Design principles. You still need
          good design/structuring skills; it's just that you will apply them
          in a different manner.

          HTH
          John Roth

          >
          >
          > To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
          >
          > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
          extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
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          >
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          >
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          >
        • Sean Gilbertson
          I ll definitely check out those books. I ve seen that collection of books (XP [explained | installed | * ] ), and have just glanced at them. I ve gone
          Message 4 of 16 , Dec 31, 2003
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            I'll definitely check out those books. I've seen
            that collection of books (XP [explained | installed |
            * ] ), and have just glanced at them. I've gone
            through the first two units of the Martin book (about
            150 pages) in a few days, and it got me fired about
            about TDD, XP, and the agile practices. I was
            previously into the book I got while in school,
            "Applying UML and Patterns," but that book, while
            valuable, is stuffy and certainly process-bound. In
            fact, I found the UML reference (an appendix) in the
            Martin book to be more than adequate!

            The Martin book is pretty good, but you're right:
            at least one of the examples has been a
            head-scratcher. I'm at the first big case study now,
            and I'll see where he's going with that.

            I had the same reaction you do: that XP should lead
            to MVC. I'm considerably open-minded, but very
            skeptical as well.

            XP initially turned me off, despite its many
            benefits, because it's a common tenet of XP to
            pair-program. However, my habits lean me very much
            towards XP ("let's code right now"), so here I am. I
            certainly appreciate good design, and I am totally OO,
            so I'm hoping this is the "killer app" it might be.
            Additionally, I do believe I could gain things by
            pair-programming, but I think I'll be alright without
            it (and I certainly hope so: most of my projects are
            solo, and I'm the only programmer at my company!).

            Thanks for all your help!

            Have a good one,
            Sean


            --- John Brewer <jbrewer@...> wrote:
            > > I have another probe into XP. I was reading an
            > example in "Agile
            > >Software Development," which was giving UI querying
            > and output
            > >responsibilities to classes which operated on data.
            > To me this was
            > >startling, and a turn-off. Certainly, I'd like to
            > "keep things
            > >simple," (I'm still getting used to how difficult
            > that can actually be
            > >in code) however I'm not willing to let go of MVC.
            > No matter how well
            > >abstracted, I can't see myself getting rid of MVC
            > for some other input
            > >method. Doesn't this practice also violate SRP? I
            > know that most
            > >things in XP are flexible, but on MVC I would like
            > some input or
            > >clarification.
            >
            > I wouldn't not use MVC, but I wouldn't put it in
            > prematurely.
            > Test-driven development almost always drives you to
            > model-view
            > separation, because you need a way to test the model
            > in isolation
            > from the GUI.
            >
            > BTW, you seem to be reading from Robert Martin's
            > book "Agile Software
            > Development" (Alistair Cockburn has another book by
            > the same title).
            > While that book has some good sections, it's not
            > really canonical XP,
            > and some of the examples (at least in the draft I
            > read) were
            > downright bizarre. To get a better overview of XP,
            > I'd recommend you
            > get Kent Beck's book "Extreme Programming
            > Explained". You might also
            > want to pick up "Test Driven Development by
            > Example", also by Kent
            > Beck.
            >
            > In general, don't believe anyone who tells you that
            > XP says to do
            > anything stupid. Counterintuitive, yes. Stupid no.
            > --
            >
            > John Brewer
            > Jera Design
            >
            > Extreme Programming FAQ:
            > http://www.jera.com/techinfo/xpfaq.html
            >
            > To Post a message, send it to:
            > extremeprogramming@...
            >
            > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
            > extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
            >
            > ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.com
            >
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            > To visit your group on the web, go to:
            > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/extremeprogramming/
            >
            > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            > extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            >
            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
            > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
            >
            >

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          • Sean Gilbertson
            I m going to take this weekend (and perhaps part of my day tomorrow) applying some XP principles to a test (and eventually production) application. I m trying
            Message 5 of 16 , Dec 31, 2003
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              I'm going to take this weekend (and perhaps part of
              my day tomorrow) applying some XP principles to a test
              (and eventually production) application. I'm trying
              to hammer out my conerns, and this list has already
              paid off wonderfully.

              The comment you made that I find the most
              interesting is: "The thing to avoid like the plague is
              the temptation to test the application itself through
              the user interface." This could be considered an
              obvious piece of advice, but in fact, I've done it
              almost exclusively in my previous projects! XP has
              already made me a convert-in-practice, rather than
              just -in-writing.

              I'm going to visit the sites you recommended, and
              meditate on the responses I've gotten, while reading
              this book, and checking out some others.

              Thank you for your time and comments!
              Sean


              --- yahoogroups@... wrote:
              > From: "smogallstar"
              >
              <smogallstar.at.yahoo.com@...>
              > Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2003 6:05 PM
              > Subject: [XP] re: XP and MVC
              >
              >
              > > Hey all,
              > >
              > > I have another probe into XP. I was reading an
              > example in "Agile
              > > Software Development," which was giving UI
              > querying and output
              > > responsibilities to classes which operated on
              > data. To me this was
              > > startling, and a turn-off. Certainly, I'd like to
              > "keep things
              > > simple," (I'm still getting used to how difficult
              > that can actually be
              > > in code) however I'm not willing to let go of MVC.
              > No matter how well
              > > abstracted, I can't see myself getting rid of MVC
              > for some other input
              > > method. Doesn't this practice also violate SRP?
              > I know that most
              > > things in XP are flexible, but on MVC I would like
              > some input or
              > > clarification.
              > >
              > > Thanks for any and all comments,
              > > Sean
              >
              > I thoroughly agree. Effective customer (acceptance)
              > testing
              > *requires* using a variant of the MVC pattern.
              > Different people
              > have different ways of saying it, but the crux of
              > the issue is that
              > the View classes should be very thin facades over
              > the corresponding
              > Model, Controller, Application or whatever you want
              > to call them
              > classes. The View class responsibilities should be
              > restricted to mapping
              > the underlying domain class (singular - there should
              > be a 1 to 1
              > correspondance at this point) using the GUI toolkit.
              >
              > One of the reasons for this (although not the only
              > one) is that
              > the most effective customer testing tools at this
              > time go into the
              > layer immediately *below* the View layer. See
              > fit.c2.com and
              > www.fitnesse.org.
              >
              > If you do this, then the View classes will be
              > relatively stable
              > in the face of changes elsewhere so that manual
              > testing (possibly
              > as part of usability testing) won't hurt as much as
              > otherwise.
              > You can, of course, productively use screen scraper
              > type tools
              > on them if you mock out the underlying domain
              > classes. The
              > thing to avoid like the plague is the temptation to
              > test the
              > application itself through the user interface.
              >
              > Another point to ponder here is that, if you pursue
              > Simple Design
              > by relentlessly pursuing and eliminating all
              > duplication, the MVC
              > pattern will spontaniously appear, complete with the
              > ancilliary
              > notifier/listener patterns. Strange, but it has been
              > reported.
              >
              > As a final point, XP does not have very much to do
              > with the
              > actual structure of your application beyond
              > recommending
              > that you apply the Simple Design principles. You
              > still need
              > good design/structuring skills; it's just that you
              > will apply them
              > in a different manner.
              >
              > HTH
              > John Roth
              >
              > >
              > >
              > > To Post a message, send it to:
              > extremeprogramming@...
              > >
              > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
              > extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
              > >
              > > ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.com
              > >
              > > Yahoo! Groups Links
              > >
              > > To visit your group on the web, go to:
              > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/extremeprogramming/
              > >
              > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
              > > extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              > >
              > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
              > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
              > >
              > >
              >
              >
              > To Post a message, send it to:
              > extremeprogramming@...
              >
              > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
              > extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
              >
              > ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.com
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              > To visit your group on the web, go to:
              > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/extremeprogramming/
              >
              > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
              > extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              >
              > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
              > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
              >
              >

              __________________________________
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              Free Pop-Up Blocker - Get it now
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            • yahoogroups@jhrothjr.com
              From: Sean Gilbertson Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2003 7:37 PM Subject: Re: [XP] re: XP and MVC ...
              Message 6 of 16 , Dec 31, 2003
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                From: "Sean Gilbertson"
                <smogallstar.at.yahoo.com@...>
                Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2003 7:37 PM
                Subject: Re: [XP] re: XP and MVC

                > XP initially turned me off, despite its many
                > benefits, because it's a common tenet of XP to
                > pair-program.

                I'm not entirely sure why pair programming seems
                to turn so many people off. Doing it effectively
                is a skill that can be learned, although it seems like
                it's best learned subliminally by pairing with a
                good trainer.

                > However, my habits lean me very much
                > towards XP ("let's code right now"), so here I am. I
                > certainly appreciate good design, and I am totally OO,
                > so I'm hoping this is the "killer app" it might be.
                > Additionally, I do believe I could gain things by
                > pair-programming, but I think I'll be alright without
                > it (and I certainly hope so: most of my projects are
                > solo, and I'm the only programmer at my company!).

                You can't, of course, pair when there's no one else
                on the project! On a one developer project, some of
                the advantages of pairing (information transfer, for
                example) simply don't apply. However, there are other
                functions such as enforcing coding standards, providing
                error checking and putting two different viewpoints
                together on design problems. You need to find other
                ways of doing these things.

                John Roth
                >
                > Thanks for all your help!
                >
                > Have a good one,
                > Sean
              • J. B. Rainsberger
                ... Indeed! The only reason I don t have a pair on my current project is that I can t afford it. My customer won t pay for it, and I can t find anyone
                Message 7 of 16 , Jan 1, 2004
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                  yahoogroups@... wrote:

                  > From: "Sean Gilbertson"
                  > <smogallstar.at.yahoo.com@...>
                  > Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2003 7:37 PM
                  > Subject: Re: [XP] re: XP and MVC
                  >
                  >> XP initially turned me off, despite its many
                  >>benefits, because it's a common tenet of XP to
                  >>pair-program.
                  >
                  > I'm not entirely sure why pair programming seems
                  > to turn so many people off. Doing it effectively
                  > is a skill that can be learned, although it seems like
                  > it's best learned subliminally by pairing with a
                  > good trainer.

                  Indeed! The only reason I don't have a pair on my current project is
                  that I can't afford it. My customer won't pay for it, and I can't find
                  anyone effective to work free.

                  I'm /dying/ for a pair. It would have saved me plenty of irritation on
                  this project, I'm quite certain.
                  --
                  J. B. Rainsberger,
                  Diaspar Software Services
                  http://www.diasparsoftware.com :: +1 416 791-8603
                  Let's write software that people understand
                • Steve Bate
                  ... I m curious. Why won t the customer pay for it? Is the total development cost of a pair perceived to be higher than for just yourself?
                  Message 8 of 16 , Jan 1, 2004
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                    > From: J. B. Rainsberger [mailto:jbrains@...]
                    > Indeed! The only reason I don't have a pair on my current project is
                    > that I can't afford it. My customer won't pay for it, and I can't find
                    > anyone effective to work free.

                    I'm curious. Why won't the customer pay for it? Is the total development
                    cost of a pair perceived to be higher than for just yourself?
                  • J. B. Rainsberger
                    ... Yes. Although my Goal Donor appears to understand Agile quite organically, my Gold Owner is a large corporation and not nearly as progressive. They had a
                    Message 9 of 16 , Jan 1, 2004
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                      Steve Bate wrote:

                      >>From: J. B. Rainsberger [mailto:jbrains@...]
                      >>Indeed! The only reason I don't have a pair on my current project is
                      >>that I can't afford it. My customer won't pay for it, and I can't find
                      >>anyone effective to work free.
                      >
                      > I'm curious. Why won't the customer pay for it? Is the total development
                      > cost of a pair perceived to be higher than for just yourself?

                      Yes. Although my Goal Donor appears to understand Agile quite
                      organically, my Gold Owner is a large corporation and not nearly as
                      progressive.

                      They had a fixed cost/time line in mind and have been very good about
                      allowing scope to vary. The fixed cost is barely enough to pay for one
                      programmer, let alone two. I took the job because I like the nerdly
                      prestige of working in Major League Baseball.
                      --
                      J. B. Rainsberger,
                      Diaspar Software Services
                      http://www.diasparsoftware.com :: +1 416 791-8603
                      Let's write software that people understand
                    • Ron Jeffries
                      ... Well, if what we say is true, two of you could do it better in half the time, n est pas? Ron Jeffries www.XProgramming.com A man hears what he wants to
                      Message 10 of 16 , Jan 1, 2004
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                        On Thursday, January 1, 2004, at 3:01:26 PM, J. B. Rainsberger wrote:

                        > Steve Bate wrote:

                        >>>From: J. B. Rainsberger [mailto:jbrains@...]
                        >>>Indeed! The only reason I don't have a pair on my current project is
                        >>>that I can't afford it. My customer won't pay for it, and I can't find
                        >>>anyone effective to work free.
                        >>
                        >> I'm curious. Why won't the customer pay for it? Is the total development
                        >> cost of a pair perceived to be higher than for just yourself?

                        > Yes. Although my Goal Donor appears to understand Agile quite
                        > organically, my Gold Owner is a large corporation and not nearly as
                        > progressive.

                        > They had a fixed cost/time line in mind and have been very good about
                        > allowing scope to vary. The fixed cost is barely enough to pay for one
                        > programmer, let alone two. I took the job because I like the nerdly
                        > prestige of working in Major League Baseball.

                        Well, if what we say is true, two of you could do it better in half the
                        time, n'est pas?

                        Ron Jeffries
                        www.XProgramming.com
                        A man hears what he wants to hear, and disregards the rest. -- Paul Simon
                      • J. B. Rainsberger
                        Ron Jeffries wrote: ... Agreed. I suppose there are two possibilities: (1) I didn t have anyone handy to work with; (2) I didn t look hard enough for
                        Message 11 of 16 , Jan 2, 2004
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                          Ron Jeffries wrote:

                          <snip />
                          >>They had a fixed cost/time line in mind and have been very good about
                          >>allowing scope to vary. The fixed cost is barely enough to pay for one
                          >>programmer, let alone two. I took the job because I like the nerdly
                          >>prestige of working in Major League Baseball.
                          >
                          > Well, if what we say is true, two of you could do it better in half the
                          > time, n'est pas?

                          Agreed. I suppose there are two possibilities: (1) I didn't have anyone
                          handy to work with; (2) I didn't look hard enough for someone to work with.

                          I regret that choice now. I'm learning.
                          --
                          J. B. Rainsberger,
                          Diaspar Software Services
                          http://www.diasparsoftware.com :: +1 416 791-8603
                          Let's write software that people understand
                        • Brian Christopher Robinson
                          ... Maybe you could offer a free or low paying internship. I know as a college student I would much rather have been making minimum wage programming than
                          Message 12 of 16 , Jan 6, 2004
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                            On Thu, 1 Jan 2004, J. B. Rainsberger wrote:

                            > Indeed! The only reason I don't have a pair on my current project is
                            > that I can't afford it. My customer won't pay for it, and I can't find
                            > anyone effective to work free.
                            >
                            > I'm /dying/ for a pair. It would have saved me plenty of irritation on
                            > this project, I'm quite certain.

                            Maybe you could offer a free or low paying internship. I know as a
                            college student I would much rather have been making minimum wage
                            programming than flipping burgers. If you get a reasonably bright kid
                            you could have them doing good work quickly.

                            --
                            Without requirements, the program is done now. - Ron Jeffries
                          • J. B. Rainsberger
                            ... I actually /do/ have access to a college-age student who might be interested in participating in an internship. The bad news is that my current contract
                            Message 13 of 16 , Jan 6, 2004
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                              Brian Christopher Robinson wrote:

                              > On Thu, 1 Jan 2004, J. B. Rainsberger wrote:
                              >
                              >>Indeed! The only reason I don't have a pair on my current project is
                              >>that I can't afford it. My customer won't pay for it, and I can't find
                              >>anyone effective to work free.
                              >>
                              >>I'm /dying/ for a pair. It would have saved me plenty of irritation on
                              >>this project, I'm quite certain.
                              >
                              > Maybe you could offer a free or low paying internship. I know as a
                              > college student I would much rather have been making minimum wage
                              > programming than flipping burgers. If you get a reasonably bright kid
                              > you could have them doing good work quickly.

                              I actually /do/ have access to a college-age student who might be
                              interested in participating in an internship. The bad news is that my
                              current contract ends 1/9 and no renewal is expected before May.... Just
                              bad timing.

                              My concern, though, is that I'd like an experienced person with whom to
                              pair. There are a few specific aspects of system design on which I need
                              some help, and I'm worried that a college student won't necessarily have
                              better answers than I already have. Maybe that's just my ego talking; I
                              can't be sure.
                              --
                              J. B. Rainsberger,
                              Diaspar Software Services
                              http://www.diasparsoftware.com :: +1 416 791-8603
                              Let's write software that people understand
                            • Steven Gordon
                              Just talking your way through the issues, options, considerations, and tradeoffs with somebody new to the problem often reveals better solutions. Your partner
                              Message 14 of 16 , Jan 6, 2004
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                                Just talking your way through the issues, options, considerations, and tradeoffs with somebody new to the problem often reveals better solutions. Your partner does not have to know more than you to contribute.

                                -----Original Message-----
                                From: J. B. Rainsberger [mailto:jbrains@...]
                                Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2004 9:53 AM
                                To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
                                Subject: Re: Attitudes towards pairing (Re: [XP] re: XP and MVC)


                                Brian Christopher Robinson wrote:

                                > On Thu, 1 Jan 2004, J. B. Rainsberger wrote:
                                >
                                >>Indeed! The only reason I don't have a pair on my current project is
                                >>that I can't afford it. My customer won't pay for it, and I can't find
                                >>anyone effective to work free.
                                >>
                                >>I'm /dying/ for a pair. It would have saved me plenty of irritation on
                                >>this project, I'm quite certain.
                                >
                                > Maybe you could offer a free or low paying internship. I know as a
                                > college student I would much rather have been making minimum wage
                                > programming than flipping burgers. If you get a reasonably bright kid
                                > you could have them doing good work quickly.

                                I actually /do/ have access to a college-age student who might be
                                interested in participating in an internship. The bad news is that my
                                current contract ends 1/9 and no renewal is expected before May.... Just
                                bad timing.

                                My concern, though, is that I'd like an experienced person with whom to
                                pair. There are a few specific aspects of system design on which I need
                                some help, and I'm worried that a college student won't necessarily have
                                better answers than I already have. Maybe that's just my ego talking; I
                                can't be sure.
                                --
                                J. B. Rainsberger,
                                Diaspar Software Services
                                http://www.diasparsoftware.com :: +1 416 791-8603
                                Let's write software that people understand


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                              • J. B. Rainsberger
                                ... I both understand and agree. I really almost want to apprentice on a project, just to close some knowledge gaps. -- J. B. Rainsberger, Diaspar Software
                                Message 15 of 16 , Jan 6, 2004
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Steven Gordon wrote:

                                  > Just talking your way through the issues, options, considerations, and tradeoffs with somebody new to the problem often reveals better solutions. Your partner does not have to know more than you to contribute.

                                  I both understand and agree. I really almost want to apprentice on a
                                  project, just to close some knowledge gaps.
                                  --
                                  J. B. Rainsberger,
                                  Diaspar Software Services
                                  http://www.diasparsoftware.com :: +1 416 791-8603
                                  Let's write software that people understand
                                • Marco Antonio Márquez Gómez
                                  Hi there, I think you can t understimate talent or knowledge from a college-age student, they are very receptive and creative and he could be a very good pair.
                                  Message 16 of 16 , Jan 9, 2004
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                                    Hi there,

                                    I think you can't understimate talent or knowledge from a college-age
                                    student,
                                    they are very receptive and creative and he could be a very good pair.


                                    Marco A. Márquez
                                    Emergys Mexico
                                    Software Architect
                                    marcoamg@...
                                    www.emergys.com.mx
                                    Tel. 01 (33) 3818-43-21
                                    Cel. 01 (33) 3700-17-47


                                    Steven Gordon wrote:

                                    > Just talking your way through the issues, options, considerations, and

                                    > tradeoffs with somebody new to the problem often reveals better
                                    > solutions. Your partner does not have to know more than you to
                                    > contribute.

                                    I both understand and agree. I really almost want to apprentice on a
                                    project, just to close some knowledge gaps.
                                    --
                                    J. B. Rainsberger,
                                    Diaspar Software Services
                                    http://www.diasparsoftware.com :: +1 416 791-8603
                                    Let's write software that people understand
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