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XP without a safety net and non-anectdotal evidence

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  • Amr Elssamadisy
    Three threads in one night. (Must be a side effect of fasting all day - Ramadan Mobarak everyone!) So- after sharing my thoughts and whining to this list for
    Message 1 of 7 , Oct 31, 2003
      Three threads in one night. (Must be a side effect of fasting all day -
      Ramadan Mobarak everyone!)

      So- after sharing my thoughts and whining to this list for the last week
      it seems to me that I'm coming to the following conclusion:

      "XP is more dangerous than we might think if not practiced properly."

      That may or may not be true. I have been seen as Dale suggests above,
      XP treated as a design pattern and experienced developers
      pick and choose practices prematurely. This is because they fail to
      realize that they are novices in XP and should probably start by following
      all the recommended practices together first....

      So they start with a subset - and they notice improvements - and they
      say 'see?! we've had enormous success! we are developing faster,
      better, stronger
      (the soundtrack for the 6 million dollar man here please) ....

      And I am beginning to see those little code monsters in the corners of
      the test code. My guess is that they will rear their ugly heads in a
      year or two but I can't be sure.
      It seems nobody else sees them.


      --
      Amr Elssamadisy

      Developer,Researcher,Student
      (In no particular order...)

      tel: (413) 207-1225
      email: amr@...
    • J. B. Rainsberger
      ... May I suggest an alternate wording here? (You can t stop me.) XP is more dangerous than we might think if we change it before we understand it. ... Some
      Message 2 of 7 , Oct 31, 2003
        Amr Elssamadisy wrote:

        > Three threads in one night. (Must be a side effect of fasting all day -
        > Ramadan Mobarak everyone!)
        >
        > "XP is more dangerous than we might think if not practiced properly."

        May I suggest an alternate wording here? (You can't stop me.)

        "XP is more dangerous than we might think if we change it before we
        understand it."

        > So they start with a subset - and they notice improvements - and they
        > say 'see?! we've had enormous success! we are developing faster,
        > better, stronger
        > (the soundtrack for the 6 million dollar man here please) ....
        >
        > And I am beginning to see those little code monsters in the corners of
        > the test code. My guess is that they will rear their ugly heads in a
        > year or two but I can't be sure.
        > It seems nobody else sees them.

        Some people are willing to jump into the deep end. Others wade in its
        general direction. Neither approach is better, since somehow people in
        both categories learn how to swim... even become competitive swimmers.
        --
        J. B. Rainsberger,
        Diaspar Software Services
        http://www.diasparsoftware.com :: +1 416 791-8603
        Let's write software that people understand
      • Brian Abbott
        Yeah, I think the underlying theme is that, for a team to be successful, all members need to be on the same boat. If 1/3 of a team enthusiastically adopts a
        Message 3 of 7 , Oct 31, 2003
          Yeah, I think the underlying theme is that, for a team to be successful,
          all members need to be on the same boat. If 1/3 of a team
          enthusiastically adopts a process, the other 1/3 doesn't care either way
          and the remaining 1/3 is strongly opposed, you have 100% failure. Your
          process will not be implemented correctly, you will get subtle errors
          only becoming apparent at the most critical moments. And mind you, I'm
          not only referring to errors in code but errors wherever errors are able
          to occur. You will have a frustrating disaster. Which is why getting the
          right team together is so very hard to do. It doesn't happen that often
          but when it does, you immediately know it.

          Brian Abbott

          -----Original Message-----
          From: J. B. Rainsberger [mailto:jbrains@...]
          Sent: Friday, October 31, 2003 5:42 PM
          To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [XP] XP without a safety net and non-anectdotal evidence


          Amr Elssamadisy wrote:

          > Three threads in one night. (Must be a side effect of fasting all day
          -
          > Ramadan Mobarak everyone!)
          >
          > "XP is more dangerous than we might think if not practiced properly."

          May I suggest an alternate wording here? (You can't stop me.)

          "XP is more dangerous than we might think if we change it before we
          understand it."

          > So they start with a subset - and they notice improvements - and they
          > say 'see?! we've had enormous success! we are developing faster,
          > better, stronger
          > (the soundtrack for the 6 million dollar man here please) ....
          >
          > And I am beginning to see those little code monsters in the corners of

          > the test code. My guess is that they will rear their ugly heads in a
          > year or two but I can't be sure.
          > It seems nobody else sees them.

          Some people are willing to jump into the deep end. Others wade in its
          general direction. Neither approach is better, since somehow people in
          both categories learn how to swim... even become competitive swimmers.
          --
          J. B. Rainsberger,
          Diaspar Software Services
          http://www.diasparsoftware.com :: +1 416 791-8603
          Let's write software that people understand


          To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...

          To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
          extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...

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          http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
        • Ron Jeffries
          ... Amr, there is no practice that works even when we do not do it. ... Measure velocity. If velocity stays constant, the monsters are at bay. If the monsters
          Message 4 of 7 , Oct 31, 2003
            On Friday, October 31, 2003, at 8:34:42 PM, Amr Elssamadisy wrote:

            > Three threads in one night. (Must be a side effect of fasting all day -
            > Ramadan Mobarak everyone!)

            > So- after sharing my thoughts and whining to this list for the last week
            > it seems to me that I'm coming to the following conclusion:

            > "XP is more dangerous than we might think if not practiced properly."

            Amr, there is no practice that works even when we do not do it.

            > That may or may not be true. I have been seen as Dale suggests above,
            > XP treated as a design pattern and experienced developers
            > pick and choose practices prematurely. This is because they fail to
            > realize that they are novices in XP and should probably start by following
            > all the recommended practices together first....

            > So they start with a subset - and they notice improvements - and they
            > say 'see?! we've had enormous success! we are developing faster,
            > better, stronger
            > (the soundtrack for the 6 million dollar man here please) ....

            > And I am beginning to see those little code monsters in the corners of
            > the test code. My guess is that they will rear their ugly heads in a
            > year or two but I can't be sure.
            > It seems nobody else sees them.

            Measure velocity. If velocity stays constant, the monsters are at bay. If
            the monsters start to come out, velocity will show it. In my code, I can
            see it in a week.

            Ron Jeffries
            www.XProgramming.com
            Think! -- Aretha Franklin
          • Amr Elssamadisy
            ... Ron - thanks for that enlightening statement - I wouldn t have guessed that. But seriously - what I meant by that is that some things you can get partial
            Message 5 of 7 , Oct 31, 2003
              Ron Jeffries wrote:

              >On Friday, October 31, 2003, at 8:34:42 PM, Amr Elssamadisy wrote:
              >
              >
              >
              >>Three threads in one night. (Must be a side effect of fasting all day -
              >>Ramadan Mobarak everyone!)
              >>
              >>
              >
              >
              >
              >>So- after sharing my thoughts and whining to this list for the last week
              >>it seems to me that I'm coming to the following conclusion:
              >>
              >>
              >
              >
              >
              >>"XP is more dangerous than we might think if not practiced properly."
              >>
              >>
              >
              >Amr, there is no practice that works even when we do not do it.
              >
              >
              >
              Ron - thanks for that enlightening statement - I wouldn't have guessed that.

              But seriously - what I meant by that is that some things you can get
              partial benefit by doing it partially without paying a penalty.

              My suspicion is that XP may not quite work that way. That is, there is
              a hidden penalty for doing it partially.

              --
              Amr Elssamadisy

              Developer,Researcher,Student
              (In no particular order...)

              tel: (413) 207-1225
              email: amr@...




              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Ron Jeffries
              ... Amr, there is NO practice that works even when we do not do it. Ron Jeffries www.XProgramming.com Speculation or experimentation - which is more likely to
              Message 6 of 7 , Oct 31, 2003
                On Friday, October 31, 2003, at 9:44:01 PM, Amr Elssamadisy wrote:

                > Ron Jeffries wrote:
                >>On Friday, October 31, 2003, at 8:34:42 PM, Amr Elssamadisy wrote:
                >>
                >>>Three threads in one night. (Must be a side effect of fasting all day -
                >>>Ramadan Mobarak everyone!)
                >>
                >>>So- after sharing my thoughts and whining to this list for the last week
                >>>it seems to me that I'm coming to the following conclusion:
                >>
                >>>"XP is more dangerous than we might think if not practiced properly."

                >>Amr, there is no practice that works even when we do not do it.
                >>
                > Ron - thanks for that enlightening statement - I wouldn't have guessed that.

                > But seriously - what I meant by that is that some things you can get
                > partial benefit by doing it partially without paying a penalty.

                > My suspicion is that XP may not quite work that way. That is, there is
                > a hidden penalty for doing it partially.

                Amr, there is NO practice that works even when we do not do it.

                Ron Jeffries
                www.XProgramming.com
                Speculation or experimentation - which is more likely to give the correct answer?
              • David Corbin
                ... What I think he s trying to say, is when done impropertly, XP has greater risk than other processes done partially. As analogy, flying may be a great way
                Message 7 of 7 , Nov 1 3:44 AM
                  On Friday 31 October 2003 21:56, Ron Jeffries wrote:
                  > On Friday, October 31, 2003, at 9:44:01 PM, Amr Elssamadisy wrote:
                  > > Ron Jeffries wrote:
                  > >>On Friday, October 31, 2003, at 8:34:42 PM, Amr Elssamadisy wrote:
                  > >>>Three threads in one night. (Must be a side effect of fasting all day -
                  > >>>Ramadan Mobarak everyone!)
                  > >>>
                  > >>>So- after sharing my thoughts and whining to this list for the last week
                  > >>>it seems to me that I'm coming to the following conclusion:
                  > >>>
                  > >>>"XP is more dangerous than we might think if not practiced properly."
                  > >>
                  > >>Amr, there is no practice that works even when we do not do it.
                  > >
                  > > Ron - thanks for that enlightening statement - I wouldn't have guessed
                  > > that.
                  > >
                  > > But seriously - what I meant by that is that some things you can get
                  > > partial benefit by doing it partially without paying a penalty.
                  > >
                  > > My suspicion is that XP may not quite work that way. That is, there is
                  > > a hidden penalty for doing it partially.
                  >
                  > Amr, there is NO practice that works even when we do not do it.

                  What I think he's trying to say, is when done impropertly, XP has greater risk
                  than other processes done partially. As analogy, flying may be a great way
                  to travel across country, but doing it properly, it may be more dangerous
                  than driving across country improperly.

                  Not that I agree completely, just that I think the dangers are more obvious.

                  >
                  > Ron Jeffries
                  > www.XProgramming.com
                  > Speculation or experimentation - which is more likely to give the correct
                  > answer?
                  >
                  >
                  > To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
                  >
                  > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                  > extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
                  >
                  > ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.com
                  >
                  > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

                  --
                  David Corbin <dcorbin@...>
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