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RE: [XP] Not great code, not great design, and XP

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  • Brian Abbott
    Hmm... Well, I don t know what your exact position is or what exactly you do but, I would argue that any developer working on any team does have the power to
    Message 1 of 20 , Oct 31, 2003
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      Hmm... Well, I don't know what your exact position is or what exactly
      you do but, I would argue that any developer working on any team does
      have the power to do that. It's just simple persuasion.

      Brian Abbott

      -----Original Message-----
      From: Amr Elssamadisy [mailto:amr@...]
      Sent: Friday, October 31, 2003 4:24 PM
      To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [XP] Not great code, not great design, and XP


      Ron Jeffries wrote:

      >On Friday, October 31, 2003, at 6:55:55 PM, Amr Elssamadisy wrote:
      >
      >
      >
      >>As far as I can tell - the only answers I've heard is 'make the code
      >>better' - or - 'don't do that!' in one form or another. :)
      >>
      >>
      >
      >What are you looking for? All there is in life is "don't screw up" and
      "fix
      >it when you screw up".
      >
      >
      >
      I am looking for a solution. I can try not to screw up - but the fact
      is others will screw up and they won't fix
      their problems. I'm looking for the answer to life, the universe, and
      everything. I can't find it. I'll settle for
      a way to affect a group without going there by hand and fixing it.

      I have no problem fixing my own junk. I just can't fix everyone
      else's. And I can't force everyone to fix it. What happen's when
      I don't have that power? I hate seeing something going wrong - I can
      see it will sink. (despair... sniff sniff...)

      So I guess what I am looking for is some safeguard against developers
      who just don't know enough not to take short cuts. They are
      more prevalent than the other kind.

      --
      Amr Elssamadisy

      Developer,Researcher,Student
      (In no particular order...)

      tel: (413) 207-1225
      email: amr@...




      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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    • J. B. Rainsberger
      ... You put simple and persuasion in the same sentence? What s your secret? -- J. B. Rainsberger, Diaspar Software Services http://www.diasparsoftware.com
      Message 2 of 20 , Oct 31, 2003
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        Brian Abbott wrote:

        > Hmm... Well, I don't know what your exact position is or what exactly
        > you do but, I would argue that any developer working on any team does
        > have the power to do that. It's just simple persuasion.

        You put "simple" and "persuasion" in the same sentence? What's your secret?
        --
        J. B. Rainsberger,
        Diaspar Software Services
        http://www.diasparsoftware.com :: +1 416 791-8603
        Let's write software that people understand
      • Brian Abbott
        Uh... I wanted to be a defense attorney? :) ... From: J. B. Rainsberger [mailto:jbrains@rogers.com] Sent: Friday, October 31, 2003 5:23 PM To:
        Message 3 of 20 , Oct 31, 2003
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          Uh... I wanted to be a defense attorney? :)

          -----Original Message-----
          From: J. B. Rainsberger [mailto:jbrains@...]
          Sent: Friday, October 31, 2003 5:23 PM
          To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [XP] Not great code, not great design, and XP


          Brian Abbott wrote:

          > Hmm... Well, I don't know what your exact position is or what exactly
          > you do but, I would argue that any developer working on any team does
          > have the power to do that. It's just simple persuasion.

          You put "simple" and "persuasion" in the same sentence? What's your
          secret?
          --
          J. B. Rainsberger,
          Diaspar Software Services
          http://www.diasparsoftware.com :: +1 416 791-8603
          Let's write software that people understand


          To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...

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        • Keith Ray
          ... Part of the problem is that some people don t fix their own problems, and another part of the problem is that their managers let them not fix their
          Message 4 of 20 , Oct 31, 2003
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            On Friday, October 31, 2003, at 04:24 PM, Amr Elssamadisy wrote:

            > I am looking for a solution. I can try not to screw up - but the fact
            > is others will screw up and they won't fix
            > their problems.

            Part of the problem is that some people don't fix their own problems,
            and another part of the problem is that their managers "let" them not
            fix their problems. Some team and companies have more discipline than
            others. Without discipline, you get (eventually) crud.

            David J. Anderson wrote on this recently:
            <http://www.agilemanagement.net/Articles/Weblog/blog.html>

            Agile methodologists often make a big deal out of how disciplined teams
            need to be to go agile. I've been reading Jim Collins, Good to Great .
            Jim highlights from his study of companies which made the transition
            from merely "good" to "great" that they have a culture of discipline. I
            want to list the quote in full...

            "A Culture of Discipline . All companies have a culture, some companies
            have discipline, but few companies have a culture of discipline. When
            you have disciplined people, you don't need hierarchy. When you have
            disciplined thought, you don't need bureaucracy. When you have
            disciplined action, you don't need excessive controls." Jim Collins,
            "Good to Great" p.13

            <http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN%3D0066620996/thelairdorganisaA/
            103-5778880-2697463>

            To me this sums up the essence of agility and provides an explanation
            for heavyweight methods. What is missing in heavyweight traditional
            methods is a culture of discipline. These methods are heavyweight
            precisely because they DO NOT trust the discipline of the engineer but
            rely on process to verify or enforce rigor, precision and quality. The
            key is "trust". If you trust your disciplined workforce then it's easy
            to go agile .
            --
            C. Keith Ray
            <http://homepage.mac.com/keithray/blog/index.html>
            <http://homepage.mac.com/keithray/xpminifaq.html>
            <http://homepage.mac.com/keithray/resume2.html>



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Ron Jeffries
            ... If you are even to save a little bit of the world, there are some things you need to know: You re not perfect and never will be. The people you try to help
            Message 5 of 20 , Oct 31, 2003
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              On Friday, October 31, 2003, at 7:39:32 PM, Amr Elssamadisy wrote:

              > All very good suggestions :) I would still like to save the world.
              > Failing on that I would like to save
              > some projects before they fail....

              If you are even to save a little bit of the world, there are some things
              you need to know:

              You're not perfect and never will be.
              The people you try to help are not perfect and never will be.
              You can keep trying.
              So can they.

              Ron Jeffries
              www.XProgramming.com
              Ron Jeffries, speaking for Boskone ... Out.
            • Ron Jeffries
              ... The answer to life is death. It comes to all living things, and it comes to all projects. If living things, and projects, take care of themselves, they
              Message 6 of 20 , Oct 31, 2003
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                On Friday, October 31, 2003, at 7:24:10 PM, Amr Elssamadisy wrote:

                > I am looking for a solution. I can try not to screw up - but the fact
                > is others will screw up and they won't fix
                > their problems. I'm looking for the answer to life, the universe, and
                > everything. I can't find it.

                The answer to life is death. It comes to all living things, and it comes to
                all projects. If living things, and projects, take care of themselves, they
                have a better chance of living longer and better lives.

                > I'll settle for a way to affect a group without going there by hand and
                > fixing it.

                Write a friggin book, post a hundred thousand messages, let people call you
                a dogmatic zen poseur. Worked for me.

                > I have no problem fixing my own junk. I just can't fix everyone
                > else's. And I can't force everyone to fix it. What happen's when
                > I don't have that power? I hate seeing something going wrong - I can
                > see it will sink. (despair... sniff sniff...)

                A man's reach must (and always will) exceed his grasp. You can grasp more
                by extending your skills. Quit the farking whining and learn from the
                people, and the events around you. Then pay it forward.

                > So I guess what I am looking for is some safeguard against developers
                > who just don't know enough not to take short cuts. They are
                > more prevalent than the other kind.

                Don't work with them.

                Ron Jeffries
                www.XProgramming.com
                Maybe it is like green shoes. Interesting, but not sought after. -- Dick Jeffries
              • George Dinwiddie
                ... It s 42. ... Or, work more closely with them. Pair with them. Infect them with your own passion. - George -- ... When I remember bygone days
                Message 7 of 20 , Oct 31, 2003
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                  Ron Jeffries wrote:
                  > On Friday, October 31, 2003, at 7:24:10 PM, Amr Elssamadisy wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  >>I am looking for a solution. I can try not to screw up - but the fact
                  >>is others will screw up and they won't fix
                  >>their problems. I'm looking for the answer to life, the universe, and
                  >>everything. I can't find it.

                  It's 42.

                  >>So I guess what I am looking for is some safeguard against developers
                  >>who just don't know enough not to take short cuts. They are
                  >>more prevalent than the other kind.
                  >
                  >
                  > Don't work with them.

                  Or, work more closely with them. Pair with them. Infect them with your
                  own passion.

                  - George

                  --
                  ----------------------------------------------------------------------
                  When I remember bygone days George Dinwiddie
                  I think how evening follows morn; gdinwiddie@...
                  So many I loved were not yet dead, http://www.Alberg30.org
                  So many I love were not yet born.
                  'The Middle' by Ogden Nash
                  ----------------------------------------------------------------------
                • Keith Ray
                  I ll settle for a way to affect a group without going there by hand and ... See The Law of Strawberry Jam by Gerald M. Weinberg
                  Message 8 of 20 , Oct 31, 2003
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                    I'll settle for a way to affect a group without going there by hand and
                    >> fixing it.
                    >
                    > Write a friggin book, post a hundred thousand messages, let people
                    > call you
                    > a dogmatic zen poseur. Worked for me.

                    See "The Law of Strawberry Jam" by Gerald M. Weinberg
                    <http://www.dorsethouse.com/features/excerpts/exmsch01.html>

                    I recommend "The Secrets of Consulting" and "More The Secrets of
                    Consulting" by Jerry Weinberg. If you can get to Phoenix by Sunday
                    morning (Nov 2.), and have the money, I also recommend talking to Jerry
                    directly at the AYE conference.

                    <http://www.ayeconference.com/>

                    --
                    C. Keith Ray
                    <http://homepage.mac.com/keithray/blog/index.html>
                    <http://homepage.mac.com/keithray/xpminifaq.html>
                    <http://homepage.mac.com/keithray/resume2.html>
                  • Otis Bricker
                    I thought it was Jedi Mind Control.
                    Message 9 of 20 , Oct 31, 2003
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                      I thought it was Jedi Mind Control.

                      At 05:56 PM 10/31/2003 -0800, you wrote:
                      >Uh... I wanted to be a defense attorney? :)
                      >
                      >-----Original Message-----
                      >From: J. B. Rainsberger [mailto:jbrains@...]
                      >Sent: Friday, October 31, 2003 5:23 PM
                      >To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
                      >Subject: Re: [XP] Not great code, not great design, and XP
                      >
                      >
                      >Brian Abbott wrote:
                      >
                      > > Hmm... Well, I don't know what your exact position is or what exactly
                      > > you do but, I would argue that any developer working on any team does
                      > > have the power to do that. It's just simple persuasion.
                      >
                      >You put "simple" and "persuasion" in the same sentence? What's your
                      >secret?
                      >--
                      >J. B. Rainsberger,
                      >Diaspar Software Services
                      >http://www.diasparsoftware.com :: +1 416 791-8603
                      >Let's write software that people understand
                      >
                      >
                      >To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
                      >
                      >To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                      >extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
                      >
                      >ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.com
                      >
                      >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                      >http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
                      >
                      >To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                      >extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
                      >
                      >ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.com
                      >
                      >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                    • Phlip
                      ... Amr, I have a little story for you. Once there was a dogmatic zen poseur called Amr E., who co-authored a paper called Bad Smells in Extreme Programming .
                      Message 10 of 20 , Oct 31, 2003
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                        > On October 31, 2003, Amr Elssamadisy wrote...

                        Amr, I have a little story for you.

                        Once there was a dogmatic zen poseur called Amr E., who co-authored a paper
                        called "Bad Smells in Extreme Programming".

                        http://www.thoughtworks.com/library/Recognizing%20and%20Responding%20to%20Ba
                        d%20Smells%20in%20Extreme%20Programming.pdf

                        Also, once, there was a total whiner named Gerold Keefer, who is turning out
                        to be the lamest of those who base their career out of not trying XP, hardly
                        studying it, relentlessly bashing it in utterly trite ways, and trying to
                        turn professional at this.

                        So, this very Gerold tried to pretend that when he reads that paper it says
                        "XP Smells". He tried to claim that the paper "proves" that XP does not
                        scale.

                        Keefer does not scale.

                        XP scales incrementally. Duh.

                        But that dogmatic zen poseur Amr reinvigorates me, just by being mis-quoted.
                        Thank you!

                        If I gave a rat dropping about Keefer learning about XP, I would remind him
                        that Amr et al's paper was about "if your project tries to be Agile, but if
                        it gives these smells, you may have these issues".

                        Our current state of the art is A> a crew of full-time poseur detractors
                        trying to make money off the movement the hard way, and B> threads debating
                        the finer points that arrise >after< a team has gone Agile for a while.

                        All of these are signs of a healthy paradigm shift, well under way.

                        --
                        Phlip
                      • Jeff Grigg
                        ... Right. Make them fix it. ... Find out who has the power. Convince them. Change your organization or change your organization. ... Teach. It may take a
                        Message 11 of 20 , Oct 31, 2003
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                          > Amr Elssamadisy wrote:
                          >> I have no problem fixing my own junk. I just can't fix
                          >> everyone else's.

                          Right. Make them fix it.

                          >> And I can't force everyone to fix it. What happens when
                          >> I don't have that power? [...]

                          Find out who has the power. Convince them. Change your
                          organization or change your organization.

                          >> So I guess what I am looking for is some safeguard against
                          >> developers who just don't know enough not to take short
                          >> cuts. They are more prevalent than the other kind.

                          Teach. It may take a little effort. They may need a little work
                          with a clue-by-four. ;->


                          --- Curtis Cooley <curtis@r...> wrote:
                          > [...] XP has never claimed to be able to fix this problem.
                          > [...] XP is neither the cause nor the cure to code entropy.

                          (Nor is it the cause or cure of people being lazy and/or stupid.)

                          > Conversation goes a long way to helping people become better
                          > people. "When you check in this crappy code, it makes it
                          > harder for all of us. Please, come sit with me a while and
                          > I will demonstrate how to make it a little better before
                          > you check it in."

                          What I say is...
                          "Whenever you change it, it should be better when you're done than
                          when you started."

                          People will object that they can't clean up "all that crappy code."
                          They're right: There's no economically feasible way to clean up
                          *ALL* of it *RIGHT NOW*. But we can change this variable or method
                          name, right here, to make it more easily understood. And that's a
                          good first step.

                          It is better to be going in the right direction than the wrong
                          direction.

                          Claiming that the ultimate goal is unachievable can be cause for
                          despair. But sometimes, those are the only goals worth striving for.
                        • Randy MacDonald
                          ... That ll take more than two weeks. Time to reduce your scope. ... Let me see if I understand you correctly... you have so-so code, and you re convinced it
                          Message 12 of 20 , Nov 2, 2003
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                            At 07:39 PM 10/31/03, you wrote:


                            >J. B. Rainsberger wrote:
                            >
                            > >Amr Elssamadisy wrote:
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >>So I guess what I am looking for is some safeguard against developers
                            > >>who just don't know enough not to take short cuts. They are
                            > >>more prevalent than the other kind.
                            > >>
                            > >>
                            > >
                            > >These are all serious suggestions.
                            > >
                            > >1. Don't work with them.
                            > >2. Don't work with them.
                            > >3. Don't work with them.
                            > >
                            > >If you cannot accept them as they are, and if you cannot convince them
                            > >to change, then conserve your sanity.
                            > >
                            > >
                            >All very good suggestions :) I would still like to save the world.

                            That'll take more than two weeks. Time to reduce your scope.

                            >Failing on that I would like to save
                            >some projects before they fail....

                            Let me see if I understand you correctly... you have so-so code, and you're
                            convinced it will break, and you want to prevent that. Apart from thinking
                            YAGNI, because it will break when it breaks, I would suggest you add code
                            that expresses your expectations of it, i.e. write tests, and make them work.

                            >--
                            >Amr Elssamadisy
                            >
                            >Developer,Researcher,Student
                            >(In no particular order...)
                            >
                            >tel: (413) 207-1225
                            >email: amr@...
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >
                            >
                            >To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
                            >
                            >To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                            >extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
                            >
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                            >
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                            Later...
                            -----------------------------------------------------------------------
                            |\/| Randy A MacDonald | you can't pay for it,
                            |\\| randy@... | even if you want to.
                            BSc(Math) UNBF'83 Sapere Aude | APL: If you can say it, it's done..
                            Natural Born APL'er |
                            ------------------------------------------------------------{ gnat }-
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