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Re: [XP] Re: auditing XP

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  • Ron Jeffries
    ... I m not /telling/ anything, but here are some other thoughts ... ... Plus the results on the whiteboard, the acceptance tests, and a video recording if one
    Message 1 of 18 , Oct 1, 2003
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      On Wednesday, October 1, 2003, at 8:02:39 AM, Ken Boucher wrote:

      > Trying to accurately work this out in my mind. Feel free to tell me
      > what I'm missing.

      I'm not /telling/ anything, but here are some other thoughts ...

      > Planning Game - interview?

      Plus the results on the whiteboard, the acceptance tests, and a video
      recording if one really cared. Whiteboard photos. Status reports.

      > Small Releases - repository?

      Maybe some other transmission documents, results of ATs. Manuals. Party
      bills on the company Visa card.

      > Metaphor - interview?

      Or a class diagram on the whiteboard, or the three-page writeup of
      "Navigating the XYZ Code Base".

      > Simple Design - code review from repository?

      Tricky one. I'm stumped at this moment.

      > Testing - repository? Interviews? some code tool?

      Coverage tools are good for this. Graphs of number of classes, methods,
      tests, assertions, vs time.

      > Refactoring - interview? code review?

      Might be able to induce this from the code manager. Effects visible in
      velocity. Tricky one though.

      > Pair Programming - logs?

      And interviews and signed checkins. And observing the room. I'd like to
      see defects logged by paired vs non, but that's a separate issue.

      > Collective Code Ownership - interview? repository?

      Story and task assignments from the whiteboard signup.

      > Continuous Integration - repository?

      Yes. Acceptance test runs and results?

      > Sustainable Pace - logs?

      And code checkouts, checkins, machine logs, internet hits, mail sends,
      ... all that draconian spyware stuff. Yucch.

      > On-site Customer - interview?

      Yes. And I'd think that other practices would show absence of, or low
      quality in, on-site customer. Acceptance tests, planning game, ...

      > Coding Standards - code review? some code tool?

      Interviews

      > Personally, I really hate having to log everything I'm doing, but it
      > just seems to be the nature of the business to spend a chunk of time
      > documenting the time you spend on everything except the amount of
      > time you spend documenting it.

      I hate it too. And if I did, I would /definitely/ document the amount of
      time I spent documenting the amount of time I spent ... Really.

      > Honestly, the big problem I see is that most of the measurements
      > you're getting are coming from interviews and logs, both of which are
      > mostly consisting of people telling you what they want you to hear. I
      > mean let's be honest, what's more likely to be accurate, a comment in
      > the code or someone's interview or timesheet? At least the comment
      > was truthful at one time.

      I'm not sure that the comment was ever truthful.

      However, if the team lies as a matter of course (as opposed to being
      frequently mistaken or forgetful) then our problem isn't whether or not
      they are doing XP.

      I believe that the continuous release of running tested software tells the
      tale. If that's happening, then the process is working fairly well. If it
      isn't happening, then the process isn't working well.

      The preceding paragraph should be at the top of this note, and the concepts
      woven into the list of practices. Exercise left to the reader ...

      Ron Jeffries
      www.XProgramming.com
      The main reason that testing at the end of a development cycle finds
      problems is not that problems were put in near the end, it is that
      testing was put off until then.
    • yahoogroups@jhrothjr.com
      ... From: Ken Boucher To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
      Message 2 of 18 , Oct 1, 2003
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        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "Ken Boucher" <yahoo.at.nozen.com@...>
        To: "extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com"
        <extremeprogramming.at.yahoogroups.com@...>
        Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2003 8:02 AM
        Subject: [XP] Re: auditing XP


        > --- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com, Ralph Johnson
        > <johnson@c...> wrote:
        > > Alistair Cockburn says that it isn't possible to tell whether a
        > > group is doing XP from outside the group. I do it all the time.
        > > All I really need is a log of each person's activiity and access to
        > > their cvs repository.
        >
        > > The customer should make a more detailed report and should
        > > report on every iteration planning meeting what is to be
        > > done and what was actually done.
        > >
        > > I think from that (and a few on-site interviews) I can tell
        > > if a group is doing XP. Do you think this will not work?
        >
        > Trying to accurately work this out in my mind. Feel free to tell me
        > what I'm missing.
        >
        > Planning Game - interview?

        Visit a planning game. Play fly on the wall to see
        how well it's working. Read Alistar Cockburns
        book "Agile Software Development" to get
        a feeling for things to look for in the communication
        arena.

        > Small Releases - repository?

        How frequently have releases gone to the field to
        be installed? Someone (usually the customer) knows
        this.

        > Metaphor - interview?

        Sit in on a couple of sessions between the customer
        and the developers. Are they communicating smoothly,
        or is there a lot of groping to try to get ideas across.

        > Simple Design - code review from repository?

        Code review is the only thing that comes to mind here.

        > Testing - repository? Interviews? some code tool?

        For unit testing, I'd do a code coverage analysis,
        and look for 100% statement and branch coverage.
        This is actually more than canonical XP does, but
        it's not that hard to achieve if you start out with
        TDD.

        For customer tests, I'd look at the number of field
        reported bugs of the form: "but it shouldn't be doing
        *this*" for whatever *this* is.

        > Refactoring - interview? code review?

        Code review looking specifically for duplication and
        comprehensibility (items 2 and 3 on Kent Beck's Simple
        Design list.)

        > Pair Programming - logs?

        Walkabout. Either people are pairing, or they aren't.

        > Collective Code Ownership - interview? repository?

        Is someone trying to schedule tasks and assign them
        to developers? If they aren't, then collective code ownership
        is functioning adequately.

        > Continuous Integration - repository?

        Look for failed checkins. The smaller the grain of integration,
        the fewer failed checkins there should be.

        > Sustainable Pace - logs?

        Probably, although I'd look at velocity as well, also
        code quality. Violating sustainable pace usually impacts
        both very quickly.

        > On-site Customer - interview?

        Visit the site. "Hey, Connie's our customer, but she's talking
        to one of the developers right now."

        > Coding Standards - code review? some code tool?

        Is there a document? Do a code review against the document.


        > Personally, I really hate having to log everything I'm doing, but it
        > just seems to be the nature of the business to spend a chunk of time
        > documenting the time you spend on everything except the amount of
        > time you spend documenting it.

        I've always logged a couple of hours a week as time spent filling
        out time sheets, and I've never had anyone complain. Early on, I
        was hoping that it would get people to quit requiring the silly things.
        Later, I understood that accountants are perfectly well aware that
        time reporting takes time.

        > Honestly, the big problem I see is that most of the measurements
        > you're getting are coming from interviews and logs, both of which are
        > mostly consisting of people telling you what they want you to hear. I
        > mean let's be honest, what's more likely to be accurate, a comment in
        > the code or someone's interview or timesheet? At least the comment
        > was truthful at one time.

        I don't think I actually specified an interview at all in my comments,
        and the only times I looked at logs were for rather obvious things that
        the development team should probably be keeping an eye on anyway.

        John Roth
        >
        >
      • Alexander Fedorenko
        ... Try to plan Your day instead of logging after doing things. It works for me pretty well. Alexander Fedorenko, mailto:sashaf@arshin.com ... ïÔ: Ken
        Message 3 of 18 , Oct 1, 2003
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          > Personally, I really hate having to log everything I'm doing,

          Try to plan Your day instead of logging after doing things. It works for me pretty well.

          Alexander Fedorenko,
          mailto:sashaf@...


          -----Исходное сообщение-----
          От: Ken Boucher [mailto:yahoo@...]
          Отправлено: 1 жовтня 2003 р. 15:03
          Кому: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
          Тема: [XP] Re: auditing XP

          --- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com, Ralph Johnson
          <johnson@c...> wrote:
          > Alistair Cockburn says that it isn't possible to tell whether a
          > group is doing XP from outside the group. I do it all the time.
          > All I really need is a log of each person's activiity and access to
          > their cvs repository.

          > The customer should make a more detailed report and should
          > report on every iteration planning meeting what is to be
          > done and what was actually done.
          >
          > I think from that (and a few on-site interviews) I can tell
          > if a group is doing XP. Do you think this will not work?

          Trying to accurately work this out in my mind. Feel free to tell me
          what I'm missing.

          Planning Game - interview?
          Small Releases - repository?
          Metaphor - interview?
          Simple Design - code review from repository?
          Testing - repository? Interviews? some code tool?
          Refactoring - interview? code review?
          Pair Programming - logs?
          Collective Code Ownership - interview? repository?
          Continuous Integration - repository?
          Sustainable Pace - logs?
          On-site Customer - interview?
          Coding Standards - code review? some code tool?

          Personally, I really hate having to log everything I'm doing, but it
          just seems to be the nature of the business to spend a chunk of time
          documenting the time you spend on everything except the amount of
          time you spend documenting it.

          Honestly, the big problem I see is that most of the measurements
          you're getting are coming from interviews and logs, both of which are
          mostly consisting of people telling you what they want you to hear. I
          mean let's be honest, what's more likely to be accurate, a comment in
          the code or someone's interview or timesheet? At least the comment
          was truthful at one time.


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        • Steven Gordon
          ... Code changes checked in, but no new unit tests checked in. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          Message 4 of 18 , Oct 1, 2003
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            > Refactoring - interview? code review?

            Code changes checked in, but no new unit tests checked in.


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Steven Gordon
            Whenever I document the time I spend at the request of management, I ALWAYS include an entry for the time I spent documenting the time I spent. You cannot
            Message 5 of 18 , Oct 1, 2003
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              Whenever I document the time I spend at the request of management, I ALWAYS include an entry for the time I spent documenting the time I spent. You cannot allow management to think your time is free.

              I agree with the second observation. Not only is there a bias because people tend to say what they think you want to hear, but introspection also tends to be a report of internal rationalizations and mental models, not what really occurred. But, I do not see a better solution.

              -----Original Message-----
              From: Ken Boucher [mailto:yahoo@...]
              Sent: Wed 10/1/2003 5:02 AM
              To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
              Cc:
              Subject: [XP] Re: auditing XP

              Personally, I really hate having to log everything I'm doing, but it
              just seems to be the nature of the business to spend a chunk of time
              documenting the time you spend on everything except the amount of
              time you spend documenting it.

              Honestly, the big problem I see is that most of the measurements
              you're getting are coming from interviews and logs, both of which are
              mostly consisting of people telling you what they want you to hear.




              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Ron Jeffries
              ... This is why most such practices require contemporaneous logs. Which, after much research, I find means log things as you do them, not at the end of the
              Message 6 of 18 , Oct 1, 2003
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                On Wednesday, October 1, 2003, at 9:50:04 AM, Steven Gordon wrote:

                > Whenever I document the time I spend at the request of management, I ALWAYS include an entry for the time
                > I spent documenting the time I spent. You cannot allow management to think your time is free.

                > I agree with the second observation. Not only is there a bias because people tend to say what they think
                > you want to hear, but introspection also tends to be a report of internal rationalizations and mental
                > models, not what really occurred. But, I do not see a better solution.

                This is why most such practices require contemporaneous logs. Which, after
                much research, I find means "log things as you do them, not at the end of
                the day".

                Ron Jeffries
                www.XProgramming.com
                One never knows, do one? -- Fats Waller
              • Syver Enstad
                ... What about the time it takes to make a very simple application that uses a subset of the system? If the system has a simple design it should be relatively
                Message 7 of 18 , Oct 1, 2003
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                  yahoogroups@... writes:

                  > > Simple Design - code review from repository?
                  >
                  > Code review is the only thing that comes to mind here.

                  What about the time it takes to make a very simple application that
                  uses a subset of the system? If the system has a simple design it
                  should be relatively easy to instantiate a couple of system classes
                  and make them do something.
                • Chris Hanson
                  ... Since I do consulting work on a time-and-materials basis, I track my time to the quarter hour. However, I track my time *my* way using OmniOutliner, which
                  Message 8 of 18 , Oct 1, 2003
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                    On Wednesday, October 1, 2003, at 07:02 AM, Ken Boucher wrote:
                    > Personally, I really hate having to log everything I'm doing, but it
                    > just seems to be the nature of the business to spend a chunk of time
                    > documenting the time you spend on everything except the amount of
                    > time you spend documenting it.

                    Since I do consulting work on a time-and-materials basis, I track my
                    time to the quarter hour. However, I track my time *my* way using
                    OmniOutliner, which takes almost no time at all. If a client wants me
                    to track my hours some other way, say by using some nasty web
                    application or by filling out paper forms, then I do it that way too
                    and bill for the time it takes.

                    I've had cases where it would take me 30 to 60 minutes per week to
                    enter my data into someone else's time tracking system. If they prefer
                    I spend billable time that way rather than doing real work, I'm not
                    going to argue with them. However, I'm perfectly up front with them
                    that I consider the time billable, and let them make the decision with
                    that in mind.

                    -- Chris

                    --
                    Chris Hanson, bDistributed.com, Inc. | Email: cmh@...
                    Custom Mac OS X Development | Phone: +1-847-372-3955
                    http://bdistributed.com/ | Fax: +1-847-589-3738
                    http://bdistributed.com/Articles/ | Personal Email: cmh@...
                  • acockburn@aol.com
                    In a message dated 10/1/2003 1:20:47 PM Mountain Daylight Time, Ralph Johnsonwrites:
                    Message 9 of 18 , Oct 1, 2003
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                      In a message dated 10/1/2003 1:20:47 PM Mountain Daylight Time, Ralph
                      Johnsonwrites:


                      <<Alistair Cockburn says that it isn't possible to tell
                      whether a group is doing XP from outside the group.
                      I do it all the time.>>

                      Hi, Ralph,

                      1. Could you please publish here the rules or heuristics you use to determine
                      whether or not they have followed XP?
                      You may be the only person in the world who has reason enough to care whether
                      a team actually did whatever you choose to think of as "XP". Therefore the
                      evaluation mechanism you use is very important.

                      2. My point wasn't that You don't know in your own mind whether they're doing
                      XP (which is adequate for your course), or Ron doesn't know in his own mind
                      (or I don't know in my own mind) whether they're doing XP, but that there isn't
                      enough consensus to constitute meaning to the phrase, "This team is / isn't
                      doing XP".

                      3. Point #2 was effectively neutralized w.r.t. the CMMi question by those who
                      pointed out that a team doesn't have to be observed to be doing "XP"
                      (whatever that is), but only what they say they're doing. So with respect to CMMi,
                      "This team is/isn't doing XP" is an irrelevant sentence (which is just as well,
                      since I also think it's a meaningless sentence, except, possibly, in your
                      course).

                      4. Leading forward to a different question, if the sentence is both
                      meaningless in utterance, and as many people here point out, also insignificant ("What
                      do you care whether they are doing *real* XP --- the important question is
                      whether the project is succeeding and people are happy?"), then what would make a
                      decent response to the FAQ, "how can we tell if we're doing XP?"

                      ==============================================
                      Alistair Cockburn
                      ==============================================


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • acockburn@aol.com
                      In a message dated 10/1/2003 1:20:47 PM Mountain Daylight Time, extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com writes: In this context, I am reminded that long ago,
                      Message 10 of 18 , Oct 1, 2003
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                        In a message dated 10/1/2003 1:20:47 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
                        extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com writes:
                        In this context, I am reminded that long ago, Alistair came to visit the C3
                        team. He commented later to the effect that he learned that the team
                        actually did the process that they and their management said that they did,
                        and if I recall, expressed some surprise, as this was rather an unusual
                        result.

                        So it seems that Alistair has forgotten how to determine whether teams are
                        doing what they claim to be doing, using an independent resource if need
                        be. I hope he kept good notes on how he used to do it, because it can be a
                        valuable ability when one is coaching. ;->
                        ---> At that time, "doing XP" had a meaning. Given the definition I was
                        handed, it wasn't just that they were doing what they said they would be doing,
                        they were doing "XP".

                        I remain in awe by that remarkable result.

                        Also by the fact that there was no brick falling onto the team's collect head
                        at that time.

                        (My audit wouldn't have worked for CMMi purposes, because I didn't check the
                        C3 processes for ensuring that the process was taught and followed ... only
                        that coincidentally it just happened to be being followed on the day I visited)

                        ==============================================
                        Alistair Cockburn
                        ==============================================


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • acockburn@aol.com
                        In a message dated 10/1/2003 1:20:47 PM Mountain Daylight Time, Ron Jeffries writes: I think it works, but I have one big problem with the whole issue. I m
                        Message 11 of 18 , Oct 1, 2003
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                          In a message dated 10/1/2003 1:20:47 PM Mountain Daylight Time, Ron Jeffries
                          writes:
                          I think it works, but I have one "big" problem with the whole issue. I'm
                          not sure that it means anything to say "We are doing XP", or "We are doing
                          RUP" for that matter.
                          ---> sorry, I didn't spot this before putting in my similar sentence. It
                          appears Ron and I accidentally agree again (sorry, Ron)

                          ==============================================
                          Alistair Cockburn
                          ==============================================


                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Ron Jeffries
                          ... I m sure it must be my mistake ... Ron Jeffries www.XProgramming.com You are closing your eyes to a situation you do not wish to acknowledge. --Professor
                          Message 12 of 18 , Oct 1, 2003
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                            On Wednesday, October 1, 2003, at 5:54:16 PM, acockburn@... wrote:

                            > In a message dated 10/1/2003 1:20:47 PM Mountain Daylight Time, Ron Jeffries
                            > writes:
                            > I think it works, but I have one "big" problem with the whole issue. I'm
                            > not sure that it means anything to say "We are doing XP", or "We are doing
                            > RUP" for that matter.
                            > ---> sorry, I didn't spot this before putting in my similar sentence. It
                            > appears Ron and I accidentally agree again (sorry, Ron)

                            I'm sure it must be my mistake ...

                            Ron Jeffries
                            www.XProgramming.com
                            You are closing your eyes to a situation you do not wish to acknowledge.
                            --Professor Harold Hill
                          • Ron Jeffries
                            ... Here are a few potentially decent responses, to be used in a context-dependent way. See Brad Appleton for details on how to be optimally context-dependent.
                            Message 13 of 18 , Oct 2, 2003
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                              On Wednesday, October 1, 2003, at 5:47:33 PM, acockburn@... wrote:

                              > 4. Leading forward to a different question, if the sentence is both
                              > meaningless in utterance, and as many people here point out, also insignificant ("What
                              > do you care whether they are doing *real* XP --- the important question is
                              > whether the project is succeeding and people are happy?"), then what would make a
                              > decent response to the FAQ, "how can we tell if we're doing XP?"

                              Here are a few potentially decent responses, to be used in a
                              context-dependent way. See Brad Appleton for details on how to be optimally
                              context-dependent.

                              ==========================================================================
                              "Well, if we knew whether we were doing XP, what use would we make of the
                              information?"
                              ==========================================================================
                              "Well, first of all, are you doing all of the XP practices all the time?"

                              If they say yes, next ask "How's that working for you?"
                              If they say no, next ask "How's that working for you?"
                              ==========================================================================
                              "1. Show me the team's Open Workspace.
                              2. I'd like to meet your Customer.
                              3. What stories are being done this iteration? Can I see the cards?
                              4. Tell me about your performance on acceptance tests.
                              5. When was your most recent release? When's the next one?
                              6. Here are some cards. Tell me about the system's design.
                              7. Let's go watch people program for a while.
                              8. How many classes, methods, lines of code do you have? How many test
                              classes, methods, assertions, lines? Have you tracked that over time?
                              9. Do you know what your unit test coverage is?
                              10. How do you handle defects coming in from the customers?
                              11. How are you doing on refactoring? Any changes? Why?
                              12. Tell me about who works on what code.
                              13. What kind of coding standards do you follow?
                              14. How often do you build the system? Do the builds always work?
                              15. When do you start your days, and end them? I'm staying over Saturday,
                              will there be anyone here to come talk to?"
                              ==========================================================================
                              "Hire Ron Jeffries to come in and tell you. It's the only way to be sure."
                              ==========================================================================

                              Ron Jeffries
                              www.XProgramming.com
                              For me, XP ain't out there, it's in here. -- Bill Caputo
                            • Ralph Johnson
                              Ron Jeffries had a bunch of ideas for checking that XP practices were being followed which are mostly more work than what we do, though they would be more
                              Message 14 of 18 , Oct 11, 2003
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                                Ron Jeffries had a bunch of ideas for checking that XP practices were being
                                followed which are mostly more work than what we do, though they would be
                                more accurate. We monitor a lot of projects, so we can't spend too much
                                time on each.

                                He also said:
                                > I think it works, but I have one "big" problem with the whole issue. I'm
                                > not sure that it means anything to say "We are doing XP", or "We are doing
                                > RUP" for that matter.
                                >
                                > We can certainly monitor, however, the extent to which the team is doing
                                > (or at least reporting) the XP practices, which is probably nearly good
                                > enough for a number of simple purposes:
                                >
                                > -- satisfying a CMM or ISO process check;
                                > -- finding out whether students are adhering to practices;
                                > -- detecting correlation between practice and result;
                                > -- detecting probable areas to measure and/or improve;

                                I define XP as doing the XP practices. Is there any other useful
                                definition?

                                Ken Boucher was pretty close when he said:

                                > Planning Game - interview?
                                Logs plus reports from customer.
                                > Small Releases - repository?
                                > Metaphor - interview?
                                > Simple Design - code review from repository?
                                The TAs and I read code. I don't know if this is what you mean by "code
                                review". It is impossible to be sure that students are doing the simplest
                                thing they can think of but it is easy to see unnecessary complexity. It
                                takes days or weeks for people to build infrastructure.

                                > Testing - repository? Interviews? some code tool?
                                We make sure there are automated tests and we count them and complain if
                                there don't seem to be very many. We usually don't make sure that tests are
                                written before code. When they aren't, usually code is checked in one day
                                and tests are checked in the next. It is theoretically possible for
                                students to write code and tests on the same day without writing tests
                                first, but not likely.

                                > Refactoring - interview? code review?
                                We read code and say "this needs to be refactored". Refactoring is one of
                                the practices students find hardest. Many of them look at bad code and
                                can't see that it needs to be refactored, or else can't see how. Most teams
                                have some people who can, and eventually that knowledge spreads, but it
                                takes awhile.

                                Steven Gordon <sagordon@...> suggested "Code changes checked in, but no
                                new unit tests checked in." This is a good idea, and we should look for it.

                                > Pair Programming - logs?
                                > Collective Code Ownership - interview? repository?
                                > Continuous Integration - repository?
                                > Sustainable Pace - logs?
                                > On-site Customer - interview?
                                Also logs. If the customer is a student then they will have a log. The
                                best customers are not in the class, of course. But all XP projects are
                                required to have a customer, and students find their own projects, so often
                                someone in the class is a customer.

                                > Coding Standards - code review? some code tool?
                                Also interview. "What are your coding standards?"

                                -Ralph Johnson
                              • Ron Jeffries
                                ... I d like to think that there is, though I confess I don t know what it might be. It seems awfully narrowly defined as Just the Pracs, Ma am. Is it still
                                Message 15 of 18 , Oct 11, 2003
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                                  On Saturday, October 11, 2003, at 5:36:36 PM, Ralph Johnson wrote:

                                  > I define XP as doing the XP practices. Is there any other useful
                                  > definition?

                                  I'd like to think that there is, though I confess I don't know what it
                                  might be. It seems awfully narrowly defined as Just the Pracs, Ma'am.

                                  "Is it still XP if we type the stories into Excel," etc.

                                  Ron Jeffries
                                  www.XProgramming.com
                                  It's easier to act your way into a new way of thinking
                                  than to think your way into a new way of acting. --Millard Fuller
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