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Re: [XP] Anyone heard about this study?

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  • Chris Dollin
    ... And non-sleep such an effective bug-introduction and time-wasting tactic. The referred-to-book says that one of the effects of sleep deprivation is loss of
    Message 1 of 17 , Aug 1, 2003
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      On Friday 01 August 2003 01:13, Phlip wrote:

      > Y'all are missing a detail: I don't do all-nighters, either, and I don't
      > set an alarm clock without a reason.
      >
      > Sleep is SUCH a totally effective debugging and bug-preventing technique!

      And non-sleep such an effective bug-introduction and time-wasting tactic.
      The referred-to-book says that one of the effects of sleep deprivation is
      loss of judgement (experience says: oh yes) and, drat, forgot the term,
      fixing/monomania/locking: you get stuck in a particular pattern and can't
      get out (experience says: oh YES).

      At home we're making a deliberate effort to take sufficient sleep. This
      morning, for the first working day in quite a while, I woke before my
      alarm. [Perhaps because Mr Cat didn't wake us at 4am "Purr! Purr! I
      love you! Purr! Listen to me scratch the carpet! I'd like to go hunt now!
      Purr!"]

      --
      Chris "electric hedgehog\\\\\\\\cat-victim" Dollin
      C FAQs at: http://www.faqs.org/faqs/by-newsgroup/comp/comp.lang.c.html
      C welcome: http://www.angelfire.com/ms3/bchambless0/welcome_to_clc.html
    • Ian Collins
      ... One has to learn the art of getting up and walking away from a problem. I ve lost count of the number of bugs fixed while sitting in the little boys room!
      Message 2 of 17 , Aug 1, 2003
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        >
        >
        >o Conversely (and perhaps perversely), when is it
        > GOOD to stay on task for extra hours? I recall
        > certain times that continued concentration really
        > seemed to help (and even was perhaps unavoidable -
        > when you're at the stage you code in your dreams,
        > and that on your present project). Not for long,
        > though. I'm thinking the applicable case was when
        > the overall design was clear in my mind but the
        > implementation was knotty. (Again, I'm assuming
        > adequate sleep, at least averaged over several days.)
        >

        One has to learn the art of getting up and walking away from a problem.
        I've lost count of the number of bugs fixed while sitting in the little
        boys room!

        Tip - drink lots of water or tea, then you are forced to walk away on a
        regular basis.

        To answer the question, when you are on a roll. I'm happy for my people
        to work a 10+ hour day, provided they don't go over 40 for the week too
        often.

        Does anyone know of any studies on subconscious problem solving? I hear
        plenty of anecdotal evidence and I have several personal experiences.
        I'm sure someone must have studied it.

        Ian
      • yahoogroups@jhrothjr.com
        ... From: Ian Collins To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
        Message 3 of 17 , Aug 2, 2003
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          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "Ian Collins"
          <masuma.ian.at.quicksilver.net.nz@...>
          To: "extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com"
          <extremeprogramming.at.yahoogroups.com@...>
          Sent: Friday, August 01, 2003 7:54 PM
          Subject: Re: [XP] Anyone heard about this study?


          > >
          > >
          > >o Conversely (and perhaps perversely), when is it
          > > GOOD to stay on task for extra hours? I recall
          > > certain times that continued concentration really
          > > seemed to help (and even was perhaps unavoidable -
          > > when you're at the stage you code in your dreams,
          > > and that on your present project). Not for long,
          > > though. I'm thinking the applicable case was when
          > > the overall design was clear in my mind but the
          > > implementation was knotty. (Again, I'm assuming
          > > adequate sleep, at least averaged over several days.)
          > >
          >
          > One has to learn the art of getting up and walking away from a problem.
          > I've lost count of the number of bugs fixed while sitting in the little
          > boys room!
          >
          > Tip - drink lots of water or tea, then you are forced to walk away on a
          > regular basis.
          >
          > To answer the question, when you are on a roll. I'm happy for my people
          > to work a 10+ hour day, provided they don't go over 40 for the week too
          > often.
          >
          > Does anyone know of any studies on subconscious problem solving? I hear
          > plenty of anecdotal evidence and I have several personal experiences.
          > I'm sure someone must have studied it.

          The way I understand it, the brain can operate in a rather large number
          of configurations; that is, it has different patterns of activation and
          information
          flow depending on what it's doing. When we're stuck on a problem, the
          current patterns aren't capable of handling it. When we move off and do
          something else, we change the activation patterns, and sometimes that,
          by itself, is enough to solve it.

          This is what pair programming does for us. One of the two people is
          in "creative" mode, writing code, and the other is in "critic" mode,
          analyzing the code that's being written to see if it works, if it will do
          the job it's intended to do, whether there are code smells, and on and
          on and on.

          It's impossible for one person to do both at once effectively. Some
          people can switch back and forth easily enough that they can write
          some code and then critique it before they hit the compile button.
          Most of us can't, or find that switching that rapidly is very fatiguing.

          Unconcious (not subconcious, please!) problem solving simply
          means that the actual process isn't in concious awareness. There are
          lots of things going on in the brain that aren't in most people's
          awareness. That's one of the things that makes it difficult to analyze
          properly: introspection depends on being concious of your own
          process, and becoming concious of your process interferes with it.

          John Roth


          >
          > Ian
          >
          >
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        • John D. Mitchell
          ... [...] ... Improving on a bad situation may be an improvement but that doesn t imply that it s objectively good . I.e., cutting down to 1 pack of
          Message 4 of 17 , Aug 7, 2003
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            >>>>> "andy" == andy glew <andy.glew@...> writes:
            [...]

            >> I catch up on my sleep on weekends. Studies have show you live longer if
            >> you do that.

            Improving on a bad situation may be an improvement but that doesn't imply
            that it's objectively "good". I.e., cutting down to 1 pack of cigarettes
            per day is arguably an improvement for a 2 pack per day smoker but that's
            still bad for you.

            > Partly so... but the version I have heard (I believe on NPR pop sci
            > radio) is that it doesn't work out like that. You cannot make up for a
            > sleep deficit through the weekend. Some of the damage is irreversible.

            Indeed!

            What's more, this "catch-up" approach is an interesting mirror of the "I'm
            on a diet" mindset. The yo-yo-ing is, itself, damaging.


            Now, for Ron and some other folks on the list who are into "eastern"
            things, there are an increasing number of western style studies that are
            validating the beneficial phsyiological effects of "meditation" (be it
            traditional sitting or "meditation in movement" ala tai chi).

            It goes without saying that I leave the integration of those two threads as
            an exercise for the reader. :-? :-)

            Mu,
            John
          • Phlip
            ... if ... I repeat: I don t do all nighters, I aim for 8.5 hours sleep per night, and I don t set an alarm clock without a reason. And
            Message 5 of 17 , Aug 7, 2003
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              > >> I catch up on my sleep on weekends. Studies have show you live longer
              if
              > >> you do that.
              >
              > Improving on a bad situation may be an improvement but that doesn't imply
              > that it's objectively "good". I.e., cutting down to 1 pack of cigarettes
              > per day is arguably an improvement for a 2 pack per day smoker but that's
              > still bad for you.

              I repeat: I don't do all nighters, I aim for 8.5 hours sleep per night, and
              I don't set an alarm clock without a reason. >And< I catch up on sleep on
              weekends.

              Y'all are projecting!

              > Now, for Ron and some other folks on the list who are into "eastern"
              > things, there are an increasing number of western style studies that are
              > validating the beneficial phsyiological effects of "meditation" (be it
              > traditional sitting or "meditation in movement" ala tai chi).

              There are also studies that show drinking beer and watching the tube are
              good for you!

              --
              Phlip
              http://www.greencheese.org/MayorZogg
              -- Programming without Tan Lines, LLC --
            • John D. Mitchell
              ... [...] ... Nope. By definition, if you need to catch up on sleep on the weekends then you are NOT getting enough rest during the week. It s irrelevent
              Message 6 of 17 , Aug 7, 2003
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                >>>>> "Phlip" == Phlip <plumlee@...> writes:
                [...]

                >> Improving on a bad situation may be an improvement but that doesn't
                >> imply that it's objectively "good". I.e., cutting down to 1 pack of
                >> cigarettes per day is arguably an improvement for a 2 pack per day
                >> smoker but that's still bad for you.

                > I repeat: I don't do all nighters, I aim for 8.5 hours sleep per night,
                > and I don't set an alarm clock without a reason. >And< I catch up on
                > sleep on weekends.

                > Y'all are projecting!

                Nope. By definition, if you need to "catch up" on sleep on the weekends
                then you are NOT getting enough rest during the week.

                It's irrelevent what the specific number of hours of "sleep" that you are
                getting during the week since that's a highly individual thing and there
                are many types of sleep disorders that insidiously rob us of real rest.


                >> Now, for Ron and some other folks on the list who are into "eastern"
                >> things, there are an increasing number of western style studies that are
                >> validating the beneficial phsyiological effects of "meditation" (be it
                >> traditional sitting or "meditation in movement" ala tai chi).

                > There are also studies that show drinking beer and watching the tube are
                > good for you!

                Hmm... Those studies are easy to falsify (rigorously).

                Sweet dreams,
                John
              • Asim Jalis
                ... Plus it has the flavor of phased/waterfall process. Saving up your sleep for the weekend smells like leaving all the testing for the end of the project.
                Message 7 of 17 , Aug 7, 2003
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                  On Thu, Aug 07, 2003 at 08:22:31AM -0700, John D. Mitchell wrote:
                  > Andy Glew <andy.glew@...> writes:
                  > > Partly so... but the version I have heard (I believe on NPR
                  > > pop sci radio) is that it doesn't work out like that. You
                  > > cannot make up for a sleep deficit through the weekend. Some
                  > > of the damage is irreversible.
                  >
                  > Indeed!
                  >
                  > What's more, this "catch-up" approach is an interesting mirror
                  > of the "I'm on a diet" mindset. The yo-yo-ing is, itself,
                  > damaging.

                  Plus it has the flavor of phased/waterfall process. Saving up
                  your sleep for the weekend smells like leaving all the testing
                  for the end of the project.


                  Asim
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