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Re: [XP] YAGNI and iterative form of development

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  • yahoogroups@jhrothjr.com
    ... From: Erik Hanson To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
    Message 1 of 74 , Jul 1, 2003
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      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Erik Hanson"
      <yahoogroups.at.e.lafromage.com@...>
      To: "extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com"
      <extremeprogramming.at.yahoogroups.com@...>
      Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2003 4:25 PM
      Subject: Re: [XP] YAGNI and iterative form of development


      > "Steven Gordon" <sagordon@...> wrote:
      > > A coach would certainly help.
      > > Having some of your team go to an XP workshop would also help.
      >
      > I'd like to second this. If you have nobody on the team who has done XP,
      > either in real life or in a workshop, then you'll have a hard time
      > convincing people to do some of the seemingly counterintuitive XP
      practices.
      >
      > For example, my current project is my company's first (and only) XP
      project
      > and the only thing we knew about XP was what we got from the books and
      what
      > I read on the mailing lists. My boss argued that Kent Beck surely didn't
      > mean that every iteration should be the same duration. I was the only one
      > who disagreed, but I didn't have any experience to back up my opinions.
      Two
      > years later, we're still doing variable-duration iterations (and suffering
      > from it, IMHO).

      If I was in that situation, I'd advance several reasons for fixed
      iterations.

      1. Scheduling convenience for the customers. It's easy to tell most
      schedulers to block out every 2nd Monday, for example. It's more
      hassle to run around and rearrange schedules all the time.

      2. Estimating. It's *much* easier to do Yesterday's weather if you
      simply copy it from iteration to iteration.

      3. Flow. Lots of people work better with fixed blocks of time.

      John Roth


      >
      >
      > Erik Hanson
      >
      >
      >
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    • Ron Jeffries
      ... Practice, man, practice! ... Wherever we want to. When we are faced with multiple forces and can only go one way, we have to choose. Practically every
      Message 74 of 74 , Jul 8, 2003
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        On Tuesday, July 8, 2003, at 2:07:23 PM, amr@... wrote:

        > This has been a very good discussion (at least for me). At this point in
        > time I will stop arguing a hypothetical example - it is just not working
        > here. It is hard to listen to 200 people tell you that you are wrong and
        > insist that you are right - although I really gave it my best shot :c)

        Practice, man, practice!

        > ...

        > Finally this brings me full circle - if many of your agree with Glen and
        > Dale that experience IS valuable. Then I pose this question:

        > "Where do we use our experience within the limits/boundries of TDD/XP?"

        Wherever we want to. When we are faced with multiple forces and can only go
        one way, we have to choose. Practically every choice we make is like that
        in one way or another.

        > More to the point - can our experience lead us away from pure TDD and
        > YAGNI in some circumstances?

        We can make that choice. I've been pushing YAGNI hard for years now, in
        "toy" programs ;-> and things always work out fine. The reason might be
        that recognizing what I want to put in early, I am sensitive to the first
        "legitimate" reason to put it in, so I don't go too far from what I might
        have done had I ignored YAGNI.

        > If not - then cool - I won't argue the point - I'm kind of burned out.

        > But if so - then where? What/when/where might things be tweaked to
        > incorporate our experience?

        Any time we want. All the time. It's just a rule.

        Ron Jeffries
        www.XProgramming.com
        "Some people take everything personally." -- Ron Jeffries
        "I do not!" -- Ann Anderson
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