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RE: [XP] YAGNI and iterative form of development

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  • Steven Gordon
    I think we really need a concrete example of good, simple code without duplication for X1 and X2 that cannot be refactored into compatibility with X3 with
    Message 1 of 74 , Jun 30, 2003
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      I think we really need a concrete example of good, simple code without
      duplication for X1 and X2 that cannot be refactored into compatibility with
      X3 with significantly less effort than redesigning and reimplementing X1 and
      X2.

      Without such an example, we will continue to say that this scenario cannot
      happen unless X1 and X2 were not implemented correctly using XP.


      -----Original Message-----
      From: Vijay Krishnan [mailto:vijaykrishnan@...]
      Sent: Mon 6/30/2003 11:30 PM
      To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
      Cc:
      Subject: [XP] YAGNI and iterative form of development

      Hi,

      I have a small problem regarding YAGNI and iterative form of development.
      We are in a project , that has the following user stories in terms of
      modules
      X1
      X2
      X3
      X4

      Now X1<X2<X3<X4 in terms of complexity of logic.
      Also X3, X4 are built upon the work on X1 and X2.

      Now XP demands that we try to understand about the system by writing some
      code and prototyping

      But sometimes due to deadline pressures, the prototype never reaches to the
      logical conclusion. As such
      implementation starts off with X1.... and so on..

      consider u reach X3 stage and realise that even thought u have factored the
      code for X1, X2...
      X3 situation makes u realise that there is a flaw in the design itself.

      Now you are back to square 1 ( + 1 slightly better, as we atleast know what
      is reqd till X3)
      So wouldnt YAGNI approach postponing things result in such a dilemma

      could you please let me know , how exactly XP and yagni would work in such a
      situation?
      Can YAGNI be applied for design as well ?

      Thanks in advance!!
      Vijay


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    • Ron Jeffries
      ... Practice, man, practice! ... Wherever we want to. When we are faced with multiple forces and can only go one way, we have to choose. Practically every
      Message 74 of 74 , Jul 8, 2003
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        On Tuesday, July 8, 2003, at 2:07:23 PM, amr@... wrote:

        > This has been a very good discussion (at least for me). At this point in
        > time I will stop arguing a hypothetical example - it is just not working
        > here. It is hard to listen to 200 people tell you that you are wrong and
        > insist that you are right - although I really gave it my best shot :c)

        Practice, man, practice!

        > ...

        > Finally this brings me full circle - if many of your agree with Glen and
        > Dale that experience IS valuable. Then I pose this question:

        > "Where do we use our experience within the limits/boundries of TDD/XP?"

        Wherever we want to. When we are faced with multiple forces and can only go
        one way, we have to choose. Practically every choice we make is like that
        in one way or another.

        > More to the point - can our experience lead us away from pure TDD and
        > YAGNI in some circumstances?

        We can make that choice. I've been pushing YAGNI hard for years now, in
        "toy" programs ;-> and things always work out fine. The reason might be
        that recognizing what I want to put in early, I am sensitive to the first
        "legitimate" reason to put it in, so I don't go too far from what I might
        have done had I ignored YAGNI.

        > If not - then cool - I won't argue the point - I'm kind of burned out.

        > But if so - then where? What/when/where might things be tweaked to
        > incorporate our experience?

        Any time we want. All the time. It's just a rule.

        Ron Jeffries
        www.XProgramming.com
        "Some people take everything personally." -- Ron Jeffries
        "I do not!" -- Ann Anderson
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