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RE: licensing software engineers (was Re: [XP] IEEE SWEBOK Is Loo king for Reviewers--They Don't Even Mention XP, Agile, etc.)

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  • Bentley, Jason
    Conscience? ... From: Daniel Sheppard [mailto:daniels@pronto.com.au] Sent: Monday, June 02, 2003 12:46 AM To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE:
    Message 1 of 5 , Jun 2, 2003
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      Conscience?

      -----Original Message-----
      From: Daniel Sheppard [mailto:daniels@...]
      Sent: Monday, June 02, 2003 12:46 AM
      To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: RE: licensing software engineers (was Re: [XP] IEEE SWEBOK Is
      Looking for Reviewers--They Don't Even Mention XP, Agile, etc.)


      > Writing software is an act of speech just as much as writing
      > a poem or
      > writing a newspaper article, and as such it MUST be afforded all the
      > same protections.
      >
      > Speech is NOT, as someone put it, simply "whatever the courts say it
      > is." Speech is human expression, and if the courts disagree, we need
      > to fix the courts, not simply sit by idly while our fundamental human
      > rights are trod upon. Remember, at least in the United States our
      > system is founded upon the fact that rights are inherent and our
      > government is there to protect them; rights by definition *cannot* be
      > "granted."

      Could not the same argument be raised that all that Laywers do in a
      courtroom is Speech, and therefore Laywer nothing should stop anybody from
      being a Laywer?

      (probably just unnecessarily stirring the pot, but I AM genuinely curious as
      to what makes a Software Engineer distinct from a Laywer).

      Daniel Sheppard
      http://freeroller.net/page/soxbox



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    • Steve Berczuk
      Lawyer jokes aside, here are a couple of differences that come to mind: - you don t need as much of an infrastructure to write software as you do to practice
      Message 2 of 5 , Jun 2, 2003
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        Lawyer jokes aside, here are a couple of differences that come to mind:
        - you don't need as much of an infrastructure to write software as you
        do to practice law. This probably leads to the conclusion that it is
        harder for a sw developers to self-regulate admission to "the circle."
        - (Perhaps) people who hire software developers are less likely to be
        perceived as being 'uninformed,' so the idea of 'certification' as
        protection applies less. However, most of the time when I hear that
        people are looking for help with a legal matter they ask for referrals.
        So the professional certification issue is secondary.... (ie, people
        care about other people's experiences rather than credentials pe se)

        Having said all that, there are a few things that I'm not clear on what
        the relevant laws, professional association rules, etc are when it comes
        to practicing law. I know that you don't need a lawyer to do a number of
        legal things (though getting legal advice may be advisable):
        - writing a contract
        - filing for divorce, etc
        So, short of things that involve a trial, I'm a but confused... If I
        wanted to write advice on a legal contract, are there any relevant
        laws/rules about who I can go to for help?

        To help us understand if there is an analogy, can anyone who knows
        explain (briefly) ?

        -steve

        Bentley, Jason wrote:

        > Conscience?
        >
        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: Daniel Sheppard [mailto:daniels@...]
        > Sent: Monday, June 02, 2003 12:46 AM
        > To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
        > Subject: RE: licensing software engineers (was Re: [XP] IEEE SWEBOK Is
        > Looking for Reviewers--They Don't Even Mention XP, Agile, etc.)

        > (probably just unnecessarily stirring the pot, but I AM genuinely curious as
        > to what makes a Software Engineer distinct from a Laywer).

        >


        --
        Steve Berczuk | steve@... | http://www.berczuk.com
        SCM Patterns: Effective Teamwork, Practical Integration
        www.scmpatterns.com
      • chrisl_dev
        And Lawyers are only allowed to practice law in their own country etc. SW crosses borders, so would licencing prevent someone from buying/using a component
        Message 3 of 5 , Jun 2, 2003
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          And Lawyers are only allowed to practice law in their own country etc.
          SW crosses borders, so would licencing prevent someone from
          buying/using a component developed in another country and not
          developed by a "Licensed" developer.

          Licensing would never work - Licensed by who?

          And look what licensing did to the lawyers profession.
          We ALL love lawyers ;-)

          Chris

          --- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com, Steve Berczuk
          <berczuk@a...> wrote:
          > Lawyer jokes aside, here are a couple of differences that come to
          mind:
        • Steve Berczuk
          ... excellent point! ... Well, the few times that I ve needed then, I liked MY lawyer. The other party s lawyer was sometimes another story :) -Steve -- Steve
          Message 4 of 5 , Jun 4, 2003
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            chrisl_dev wrote:

            > And Lawyers are only allowed to practice law in their own country etc.
            > SW crosses borders, so would licencing prevent someone from
            > buying/using a component developed in another country and not
            > developed by a "Licensed" developer.

            excellent point!

            > Licensing would never work - Licensed by who?

            > And look what licensing did to the lawyers profession.
            > We ALL love lawyers ;-)
            Well, the few times that I've needed then, I liked MY lawyer.
            The other party's lawyer was sometimes another story :)

            -Steve


            --
            Steve Berczuk | steve@... | http://www.berczuk.com
            SCM Patterns: Effective Teamwork, Practical Integration
            www.scmpatterns.com
          • allendeveloper
            Which of them/us are you suggesting has the conscience? :^) FWIW, we have licensing in Texas. Since 1998. Of course, to date, we have no exam. So, if you
            Message 5 of 5 , Jun 6, 2003
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              Which of them/us are you suggesting has the conscience? :^)

              FWIW, we have licensing in Texas. Since 1998.
              Of course, to date, we have no exam. So, if
              you develop software in Texas, one of the
              following applies.
              o You have been in the business 12 or more years since
              a relevant degree (bachelor or above) and can get
              12 LPEs to endorse you for your PE license.
              p You are employed by one company. They give you any
              title they want. They are responsible to see to it
              that an LPE signs off on any work requiring, well,
              an LPE to sign off on it.
              o You are not called an engineer and the work you do
              is not characterized as engineering work. You could
              conceivably be a "developer", a "scientist", a "consultant",
              an "analyst", etc. You find some credible category for
              your work that doesn't use the label "engineering".
              So, you can't get there from here.

              OTOH, if you're not an engineer and you don't do work
              called engineering work, then you are merely as accountable
              as, say, a rocket scientist, a garbageman, or a teacher.

              Go figure.


              --- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com, "Bentley, Jason"
              <jbentley@u...> wrote:
              > Conscience?
              >
              > -----Original Message-----
              > From: Daniel Sheppard [mailto:daniels@p...]
              > Sent: Monday, June 02, 2003 12:46 AM
              > To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
              > Subject: RE: licensing software engineers (was Re: [XP] IEEE SWEBOK Is
              > Looking for Reviewers--They Don't Even Mention XP, Agile, etc.)
              >
              >
              > > Writing software is an act of speech just as much as writing
              > > a poem or
              > > writing a newspaper article, and as such it MUST be afforded all the
              > > same protections.
              > >
              > > Speech is NOT, as someone put it, simply "whatever the courts say it
              > > is." Speech is human expression, and if the courts disagree, we need
              > > to fix the courts, not simply sit by idly while our fundamental human
              > > rights are trod upon. Remember, at least in the United States our
              > > system is founded upon the fact that rights are inherent and our
              > > government is there to protect them; rights by definition *cannot* be
              > > "granted."
              >
              > Could not the same argument be raised that all that Laywers do in a
              > courtroom is Speech, and therefore Laywer nothing should stop
              anybody from
              > being a Laywer?
              >
              > (probably just unnecessarily stirring the pot, but I AM genuinely
              curious as
              > to what makes a Software Engineer distinct from a Laywer).
              >
              > Daniel Sheppard
              > http://freeroller.net/page/soxbox
              >
              >
              >
              >
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