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Re: OT Re: [XP] Re: Womb-man (was Motivation)

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  • Laurent La Rizza
    Well... comments like I m as sexist as anyone , the repeated use of the words they and them (I m a programmer, aren t I a part of us here?), and
    Message 1 of 25 , Jun 2, 2003
      <QUOTE>
      Well... comments like "I'm as sexist as anyone", the repeated use of
      the words "they" and "them" (I'm a programmer, aren't I a part
      of "us" here?), and the general confusion about what to call us non-
      male persons, to name a few.
      </QUOTE>

      Well, this road is slippery. I don't like to walk on it myself.
      Generalizations (uncontextualization in this case) are useful and
      dangerous, that's very well known. I have fought arguments like this one a
      couple of times recently. In France, there are some demonstrations run by
      teachers because they don't want to lose their advantages (a law is getting
      voted for a modification of the retirement policy for government workers),
      and in talks I've had with some of my colleagues, I've heard sentences like
      "French people want to earn money without working" (Uncontextualized
      sentence). I felt a little upset because I'm a "French people" and when I
      fight about these sentences, I get responses like "Well, not all French
      people, you know. Why do you feel insulted anyway? Are you feeling
      concerned?" Then I understood it would be too tiresome to try to withe
      fight because this <BTW invalid> argument was recurrent. Better not try to
      fight generalities but accept them as brain shortcuts of people not trying
      to express their ideas accurately <when it comes to things other than XP>
      Men always talk to men about women, didn't you know? ;o) (Beware the
      generality implied by the presence of "always" and the absence of "some"
      :oP)

      <QUOTE>
      It's also rather insulting that the folks here think women can help
      improve code by wandering around looking pretty, rather than by
      pulling up a chair and pointing out a cleaner way to do something.
      </QUOTE>

      Well, I'm sure most women have on their character sheet:
      * Pulling out chairs +4
      * Pointing out cleaner ways +12

      Anyway, I won't waste my money hiring a babe to walk around the holy coding
      room. I like watching babes and coding, but when I'm faced with both at the
      same time, it's too bad for the babe. (to geek or not to geek...) :o)

      <QUOTE>
      I'm not sure that my appearance has ever improved my coworkers' code,
      but certainly my programming skills have.
      </QUOTE>

      Anyway, how would you know? My co-workers are mostly women, some are
      pretty, some are less (none are ugly), some of them have a desire of
      excellence in their work, some others don't, but every time I look at any
      of them, I don't know why but I fell kind of empowered. I strongly believe
      that were there only men in my team, coffee-break talks and verbal
      exchanges during coding would be a little more gore than they are now.
      (Opinion based on previous experiences. No generalization implied. Just my
      spider sense.) That's a good way to keep focused.

      <QUOTE>
      I know that our field is very male dominated, but women programmers
      aren't non-existent. At every company I've worked for there has been
      at least one other woman programmer. But I've never worked anywhere
      that was doing XP. Is the male dominated nature of software
      development another aspect that is turned up to extreme levels in
      XP? :)
      </QUOTE>

      Depends... maybe if XP-women are afraid of being surrounded by males? ;o)

      <QUOTE>
      Amy
      </QUOTE>

      Laurent,
      De belles idées pour un monde plus grand...

      PS: cool down. If you have ideas to share, please contribute :o)
    • Phlip
      ... Guys, I might be reading the Members list wrong, but I think Amy quietly un-subbed before Ron s apologia ever got to her. Someone with extreme tact (or
      Message 2 of 25 , Jun 2, 2003
        > <QUOTE>
        > Well... comments like "I'm as sexist as anyone", the repeated use of
        > the words "they" and "them" (I'm a programmer, aren't I a part
        > of "us" here?), and the general confusion about what to call us non-
        > male persons, to name a few.
        > </QUOTE>

        Guys, I might be reading the Members list wrong, but I think Amy quietly
        un-subbed before Ron's apologia ever got to her.

        Someone with extreme tact (or maybe just the prerequisite two X chromosomes)
        might want to send her a private e-mail to invite her back.

        --
        Phlip
        http://www.c2.com/cgi/wiki?TestFirstUserInterfaces
      • fishlike_fly
        ... of ... non- ... quietly ... chromosomes) ... It s your guy s beating--you go take it. :-) I ve already had my hands full cleaning up yer legacy sh8.
        Message 3 of 25 , Jun 2, 2003
          --- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com, "Phlip" <plumlee@s...>
          wrote:
          > > <QUOTE>
          > > Well... comments like "I'm as sexist as anyone", the repeated use
          of
          > > the words "they" and "them" (I'm a programmer, aren't I a part
          > > of "us" here?), and the general confusion about what to call us
          non-
          > > male persons, to name a few.
          > > </QUOTE>
          >
          > Guys, I might be reading the Members list wrong, but I think Amy
          quietly
          > un-subbed before Ron's apologia ever got to her.
          >
          > Someone with extreme tact (or maybe just the prerequisite two X
          chromosomes)
          > might want to send her a private e-mail to invite her back.
          >

          It's your guy's beating--you go take it. :-) I've already had my
          hands full cleaning up yer legacy sh8. Talk about dirty job--who's
          friggin dirty job am I doin? Friggin Disney. Friggin In Search Of
          Whale or whatever... stupid friggin story.

          I'm a fool to do your dirty work, oh yeah. Any one know what I'm
          talkin about?
        • Ron Jeffries
          ... Not even a guess. Ron Jeffries www.XProgramming.com Discontinue reading if rash, irritation, redness, or swelling develops. Especially irritation.
          Message 4 of 25 , Jun 2, 2003
            On Monday, June 2, 2003, at 4:53:08 PM, fishlike_fly wrote:

            > It's your guy's beating--you go take it. :-) I've already had my
            > hands full cleaning up yer legacy sh8. Talk about dirty job--who's
            > friggin dirty job am I doin? Friggin Disney. Friggin In Search Of
            > Whale or whatever... stupid friggin story.

            > I'm a fool to do your dirty work, oh yeah. Any one know what I'm
            > talkin about?

            Not even a guess.

            Ron Jeffries
            www.XProgramming.com
            Discontinue reading if rash, irritation, redness, or swelling develops.
            Especially irritation.
          • Kay A. Pentecost
            Hi, Keith, Amy, Everybody, ... And at least one-quarter of those four women is gorgeous, intelligent, a great programmer, and *loves* this list and the guys
            Message 5 of 25 , Jun 2, 2003
              Hi, Keith, Amy, Everybody,

              > -----Original Message-----
              > From: Keith Ray [mailto:keithray@...]
              > Sent: Friday, May 30, 2003 10:26 PM
              > To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
              > Subject: Re: OT Re: [XP] Re: Womb-man (was Motivation)
              >
              >
              > On Friday, May 30, 2003, at 02:30 PM, amyatwebkitchen wrote:
              >
              > > Yikes, are there no women on this list, or in your development
              > > teams? I'm new to this list, and am quickly feeling unwelcome.
              > > Didn't know it was a men's club.
              >
              > There are 4045 members of this mailing list. At least four of them are
              > women. I'm pretty sure it's more than that.

              And at least one-quarter of those four women is gorgeous, intelligent, a
              great programmer, and *loves* this list and the guys (male and female) on
              it.

              And then there's me, who's indescribable.

              Hey, incidentally, I had a page on Ward's Wiki that said I was
              undescribable, and someone took it off. Bummer. And that was a totally
              true statement.

              I'm not going to take this standing up. I'm going to put that back and say
              that even if I am indescribable, I'm learning Smalltalk (Yay!!) and loving
              it.

              <grin>

              Kay
            • Phlip
              ... That was me (blushing, eyelashes batting). The default empty page says like Describe WikiThing here... , so all I could do was respond to that. But then
              Message 6 of 25 , Jun 2, 2003
                Kay A. Pentecost wrote:

                > Hey, incidentally, I had a page on Ward's Wiki that said I was
                > undescribable, and someone took it off. Bummer. And that was a totally
                > true statement.

                That was me (blushing, eyelashes batting).

                The default empty page says like "Describe WikiThing here...", so all I
                could do was respond to that.

                But then Ward added A> delete, and B> a short page detector. There are those
                who delete short pages regardless of obvious merit.

                But I had to give you a page because I quoted you and created an empty link
                ? thing.

                --
                The drooling ranting XP zealot
              • Kay A. Pentecost
                Hi, Phlip, ... I guessed as much. Who else would be so totally perceptive and accurate?? And I was so flattered. ... Yeah. ... Pooh, I say,
                Message 7 of 25 , Jun 2, 2003
                  Hi, Phlip,

                  > -----Original Message-----
                  > From: Phlip [mailto:plumlee@...]
                  > Sent: Monday, June 02, 2003 9:44 PM
                  > To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
                  > Subject: Re: OT Re: [XP] Re: Womb-man (was Motivation)
                  >
                  >
                  > Kay A. Pentecost wrote:
                  >
                  > > Hey, incidentally, I had a page on Ward's Wiki that said I was
                  > > undescribable, and someone took it off. Bummer. And that was a totally
                  > > true statement.
                  >
                  > That was me (blushing, eyelashes batting).

                  I guessed as much. Who else would be so totally perceptive and accurate??
                  <grin>

                  And I was <blush> so flattered.

                  >
                  > The default empty page says like "Describe WikiThing here...", so all I
                  > could do was respond to that.

                  Yeah.

                  >
                  > But then Ward added A> delete, and B> a short page detector.
                  > There are those
                  > who delete short pages regardless of obvious merit.

                  Pooh, I say, Pooh on them.

                  >
                  > But I had to give you a page because I quoted you and created an
                  > empty link
                  > ? thing.

                  Well, I'm going to put it back!! And stuff about what I am doing now, since
                  I'm considering myself XP's greatest beginner!!
                  >
                  > --
                  > The drooling ranting XP zealot

                  It's a great skill to be able to drool and rant at the same time!! Spitting
                  and ranting, now that's common --

                  Your fan,

                  Kay

                  XP mistress and child protegee.....and who's looking for work... (learning
                  Java and Smalltalk and pretty good in VB...)
                • Dave Rooney
                  ... LOL!!! Kay, you just don t spend enough time around here anymore!! :) Dave Rooney Mayford Technologies http://www.mayford.ca ... From: Kay A. Pentecost
                  Message 8 of 25 , Jun 3, 2003
                    > XP mistress and child protegee.

                    LOL!!! Kay, you just don't spend enough time around here anymore!! :)

                    Dave Rooney
                    Mayford Technologies
                    http://www.mayford.ca


                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: Kay A. Pentecost [mailto:tranzpupy@...]
                    Sent: Monday, June 02, 2003 10:08 PM
                    To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: RE: OT Re: [XP] Re: Womb-man (was Motivation)


                    Hi, Phlip,

                    > -----Original Message-----
                    > From: Phlip [mailto:plumlee@...]
                    > Sent: Monday, June 02, 2003 9:44 PM
                    > To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
                    > Subject: Re: OT Re: [XP] Re: Womb-man (was Motivation)
                    >
                    >
                    > Kay A. Pentecost wrote:
                    >
                    > > Hey, incidentally, I had a page on Ward's Wiki that said I was
                    > > undescribable, and someone took it off. Bummer. And that was a totally
                    > > true statement.
                    >
                    > That was me (blushing, eyelashes batting).

                    I guessed as much. Who else would be so totally perceptive and accurate??
                    <grin>

                    And I was <blush> so flattered.

                    >
                    > The default empty page says like "Describe WikiThing here...", so all I
                    > could do was respond to that.

                    Yeah.

                    >
                    > But then Ward added A> delete, and B> a short page detector.
                    > There are those
                    > who delete short pages regardless of obvious merit.

                    Pooh, I say, Pooh on them.

                    >
                    > But I had to give you a page because I quoted you and created an
                    > empty link
                    > ? thing.

                    Well, I'm going to put it back!! And stuff about what I am doing now, since
                    I'm considering myself XP's greatest beginner!!
                    >
                    > --
                    > The drooling ranting XP zealot

                    It's a great skill to be able to drool and rant at the same time!! Spitting
                    and ranting, now that's common --

                    Your fan,

                    Kay

                    XP mistress and child protegee.....and who's looking for work... (learning
                    Java and Smalltalk and pretty good in VB...)




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                  • Kay A. Pentecost
                    Hi, Dave, Everyone! ... Oh, thanks!! I m pretty busy... (not with paid work, yet, hint hint if anyone needs an experienced VB programmer who loves XP... or a
                    Message 9 of 25 , Jun 3, 2003
                      Hi, Dave, Everyone!

                      > -----Original Message-----
                      > From: Dave Rooney [mailto:Dave.Rooney@...]
                      > Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2003 9:05 AM
                      > To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
                      > Subject: RE: OT Re: [XP] Re: Womb-man (was Motivation)
                      >
                      >
                      > > XP mistress and child protegee.
                      >
                      > LOL!!! Kay, you just don't spend enough time around here anymore!! :)

                      Oh, thanks!!

                      I'm pretty busy... (not with paid work, yet, hint hint if anyone needs an
                      experienced VB programmer who loves XP... or a novice Java or Smalltalk
                      programmer who's willing to learn and wants to do XP hint hint...)

                      Anyhow, I'm pretty busy, and spending a lot of time on learning Smalltalk...
                      and incidentally, it's your countryman Dave Astels who's teaching me TDD and
                      Smalltalk.

                      Smalltalk Rocks! So does TDD!!

                      Kay
                      >
                    • Dave Rooney
                      ... From: Kay A. Pentecost [mailto:tranzpupy@ix.netcom.com] Sent: June 3, 2003 10:25 PM To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: OT Re: [XP] Re:
                      Message 10 of 25 , Jun 3, 2003
                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: Kay A. Pentecost [mailto:tranzpupy@...]
                        Sent: June 3, 2003 10:25 PM
                        To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: RE: OT Re: [XP] Re: Womb-man (was Motivation)

                        [snip]

                        Smalltalk Rocks!

                        [snip]

                        Yeah, I'll bet Dave put you up to that too! :)

                        Dave Rooney
                        Mayford Technologies
                        http://www.mayford.ca
                      • Kay A. Pentecost
                        Hi, Dave, ... Well you Canadians are very clever!! Kay
                        Message 11 of 25 , Jun 3, 2003
                          Hi, Dave,

                          > -----Original Message-----
                          > From: Dave Rooney [mailto:dave.rooney@...]
                          > Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2003 11:28 PM
                          > To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
                          > Subject: RE: OT Re: [XP] Re: Womb-man (was Motivation)
                          >
                          >
                          > -----Original Message-----
                          > From: Kay A. Pentecost [mailto:tranzpupy@...]
                          > Sent: June 3, 2003 10:25 PM
                          > To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
                          > Subject: RE: OT Re: [XP] Re: Womb-man (was Motivation)
                          >
                          > [snip]
                          >
                          > Smalltalk Rocks!
                          >
                          > [snip]
                          >
                          > Yeah, I'll bet Dave put you up to that too! :)

                          Well you Canadians are very clever!!

                          Kay

                          >
                        • Erik Hanson
                          ... You might want to slyly mention the geographic area in which you are considering work (not that I have any work to give)... Also, don t forget about the
                          Message 12 of 25 , Jun 3, 2003
                            "Kay A. Pentecost" <tranzpupy@...> wrote:
                            > I'm pretty busy... (not with paid work, yet, hint hint if anyone needs an
                            > experienced VB programmer who loves XP... or a novice Java or Smalltalk
                            > programmer who's willing to learn and wants to do XP hint hint...)

                            You might want to slyly mention the geographic area in which you are
                            considering work (not that I have any work to give)...

                            Also, don't forget about the xp-jobs mailing list, which I haven't plugged
                            in a while:

                            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/xp-jobs/

                            There are usually only a few job postings per month (on a good month), but
                            at least the list is 99.95% spam-free!


                            Erik Hanson
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