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RE: [XP] If you have time, could you comment on this...

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  • William Pietri
    ... Then it will be a fine opportunity to demonstrate that the whiteboard works for you, rather then the other way around. William -- brains for sale:
    Message 1 of 27 , Mar 3, 2003
      On Sun, 2003-03-02 at 12:37, Nick Robinson wrote:
      >
      > The seminal Extreme Programming Explained. Page 92, mentioned in the
      > Iteration Planning section. I can see why the whiteboard helps, though what
      > happens if someone inadvertently cleanses the whiteboard, like an
      > over-zealous cleaning lady? ;-)

      Then it will be a fine opportunity to demonstrate that the whiteboard
      works for you, rather then the other way around.


      William


      --
      brains for sale: http://scissor.com/
    • Nick Robinson
      I was thinking of this when I woke up and another question arose...-----Original Message----- From: Ron Jeffries [mailto:ronjeffries@acm.org] Sent: 01
      Message 2 of 27 , Mar 3, 2003
        I was thinking of this when I woke up and another question arose...

        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: Ron Jeffries [mailto:ronjeffries@...]
        > Sent: 01 March 2003 11:29
        > To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
        > Subject: Re: [XP] If you have time, could you comment on this...
        >
        >
        > On Saturday, March 1, 2003, at 5:20:57 AM, Nick Robinson wrote:

        <<CUT>>

        > > One other question. In the first planning phase, were the customer sits
        > > down with the team to walk through the stories, would the
        > development team
        > > break the stories into task cards in the same meeting?
        >
        > I don't use task cards any more, ever. The team might want to use some
        > cards to write down notes about things they think need to be done. For
        > anything that can be done in an evening, I'm not seeing why I'd need task
        > cards.
        >
        > Frankly I wish I had never written about them.
        >

        One question. In the above message you are basically saying if you can
        write the task in an evenings work then why bother putting it onto a task
        card - correct me if I misunderstood, as it will nullify the rest of
        this...Arent task cards meant to be chunks of work of a couple of days and
        no more, and not just an evenings worth?

        I am begining to feel that the communication aspect of XP would be the
        encompassing safety net, if thats the right term. Because an XP team has
        such good communication, and all of the key principles are practised and
        practised well, some reasons for creating things become less important?

        Thanks,

        Nick.

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      • Ron Jeffries
        ... No. I /never/ use task cards. I would not start a team with task cards. I think task cards were a phase that C3 went through. C3 stopped using them. I ve
        Message 3 of 27 , Mar 3, 2003
          On Monday, March 3, 2003, at 3:38:24 AM, Nick Robinson wrote:

          > One question. In the above message you are basically saying if you can
          > write the task in an evenings work then why bother putting it onto a task
          > card - correct me if I misunderstood, as it will nullify the rest of
          > this...Arent task cards meant to be chunks of work of a couple of days and
          > no more, and not just an evenings worth?

          No. I /never/ use task cards. I would not start a team with task cards. I
          think task cards were a phase that C3 went through. C3 stopped using them.
          I've stopped recommending them, and afaik so has Kent.

          That's not to say that I wouldn't write things on a card for myself, or
          that other developers could not. That's not the "task card" idea that I'm
          talking about. I'm talking about the practice of breaking stories down and
          writing up task cards for everything foreseen.

          That's not to say that you can't do them. Certainly they are a local
          option. The thing is this. If they're to be worth doing, as you allude to,
          they must be large. But if they are large, they are almost certainly too
          speculative. They lock the team into a set of expectations that will not
          want to be met when the time comes.

          In short -- they're not agile enough for my taste.

          But by all means, try them if you want to, it's not like they're deadly or
          anything.

          > I am begining to feel that the communication aspect of XP would be the
          > encompassing safety net, if thats the right term. Because an XP team has
          > such good communication, and all of the key principles are practised and
          > practised well, some reasons for creating things become less important?

          Yes, communication is certainly a large part of it. And feedback: smaller
          tasks provide feedback better. And simplicity: life is simpler without
          them.

          But by all means, if you don't have a permanent whiteboard or such, make
          cards to record the brainstorming. Try using small cards, so you won't
          write much on them, perhaps.

          Ron Jeffries
          www.XProgramming.com
          Talent determines how fast you get good, not how good you get. -- Richard Gabriel
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