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RE: [XP] If you have time, could you comment on this...

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  • Nick Robinson
    ... Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more http://taxes.yahoo.com/
    Message 1 of 27 , Mar 2, 2003
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      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: Friedman, Paul [mailto:paulf@...]
      > Sent: 01 March 2003 17:33
      > To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
      > Subject: RE: [XP] If you have time, could you comment on this...
      >
      >
      > Ron, Nick, et aliud,
      >
      > > >>
      > > >> > I think it will be the next workshop were the development team
      > > >> writes down
      > > >> > their estimates. Their argument (which seems reasonable), is
      > > >> that they need
      > > >> > to spend this time between now and the next workshop to try to
      > > >> understand
      > > >> > what the system has to do (high-level) and were the risky areas
      > > >> are. They
      > > >> > want to conisder architecture, which I corrected as metaphor.
      > > >> The workshop
      > > >> > ended.
      > > >>
      > > >> Is there a writeup of the lemonade game somewhere? I'd
      > > like to do it. Paul
      > > >> Friedman: you want to pair on a lemonade game chapter?
      > >
      >
      > First things first, that sounds fun.
      >
      > > > I can put it on the yahoo group. I left it at work so I
      > > will do it on
      > > > Monday. If you use my write-up, there wont be any
      > > inconsistency. That
      > > > would be cool.
      > >
      >
      > If you want to, putting your write-up somewhere would be good but . . .
      > I agree with Ron below.
      > I think the interesting part would be having two
      > separate teams deal with the same (or a very similar) situation
      > and see how
      > similar/different the approaches are and if they come to the same
      > solutions.
      >
      > We could see if the methodology causes teams to follow the same path.
      >

      But there could be fundamental differences that cause a divergence that
      would upset the end result. The two could be way off from each other....or
      maybe not I guess.

      > > There may still be inconsistency, unless you want to come and
      > > be the onsite
      > > customer for the project. Because whoever sets my priorities
      > > won't be you.
      > >
      >
      > And as Hamlet said "there's the rub". Having two separate customers
      > will drive the two separate teams in differing ways. However, I
      > still think that it would be a fruitful exercise to create a comparison
      > between the two.
      >
      > (I think I am paraphrasing my English prof. above. He /always/ used to
      > say "Even though you have apples and oranges, you still can make
      > a fruitful
      > comparison".)
      >
      > < space for obligatory groan />
      >
      > pax et bonum. p.
      >
      > To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
      >
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    • Ron Jeffries
      ... Certainly they need not be produced. But a wise and experienced customer probably has how will I test that? in mind when writing each story. And of
      Message 2 of 27 , Mar 2, 2003
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        On Sunday, March 2, 2003, at 4:04:41 AM, Nick Robinson wrote:

        >> Well, maybe I'm not understanding you. To me, one essential part of a user
        >> story is the test. In a very real sense, there /is/ no user story until
        >> there is a test. But I may be getting ahead of your story: the specific
        >> acceptance tests could start to take shape (and IMO should) in the next
        >> step:
        >>

        > hhmmm...I think I read somewhere that the customer would work on the tests
        > for the stories but they wouldnt be produced at the same time of the
        > stories? I doubt you have missed the point here...

        Certainly they need not be produced. But a wise and experienced customer
        probably has "how will I test that?" in mind when writing each story. And
        of course CATs are among the most frequently missed XP practices. So if I
        were to practice writing stories with folks, I'd put that notion in early.

        When discussing stories in planning, "How will we test this?" again becomes
        a great question to focus attention on making things concrete.

        Ron Jeffries
        www.XProgramming.com
        Sigs are like I Ching or Tarot. They don't mean anything,
        but sometimes if you think about them you'll get a useful idea.
      • Ron Jeffries
        ... I d not say failed . I d save that for when they stone you. But perhaps it wasn t ideal. We can t reach instantly from where we are to XP, and when we
        Message 3 of 27 , Mar 2, 2003
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          On Sunday, March 2, 2003, at 4:04:41 AM, Nick Robinson wrote:

          >> >> > 4. Oh yes, three others will do some domain modelling and the
          >> >> other pair who
          >> >> > are modelling will get together with them before the next workshop to
          >> >> > normalize their ideas.
          >> >>
          >> >> I don't recall this being a recommended XP step. And I'd be thinking
          >> >> "together".
          >>
          >> > Ok I agree actually.
          >>
          >> I really think this might be a fairly major bug in the exercise. On
          >> something as small as this, I might allow ten minutes of "domain modeling"
          >> discussion during planning, with some CRC cards. These folks may spend
          >> hours. An XP team, especially in a small exercise like this, would quickly
          >> move to code and let the modeling sort out with the aid of refactoring.
          >>
          >> But I'm just guessing -- I wasn't there to see what happened. I'd be alert
          >> next time for signs of too much commitment to the design. I might well say
          >> "Let's set this aside now, and start with simple code and
          >> refactoring. When
          >> we're done doing in in the XP way, let's compare what we come up with to
          >> these modeling ideas."
          >>

          > Admittedly when the workshop had ended and all types of modelling was being
          > banded about as people left, I felt that aspect had failed. I really didnt
          > want to do too much modelling at all. hhhmmmm.....I got an uneasy feeling
          > then and I get an even bigger one now.

          I'd not say "failed". I'd save that for when they stone you. But perhaps it
          wasn't ideal. We can't reach instantly from where we are to XP, and when we
          have a modeling vocabulary to share ideas in, and no code base to speak of,
          it's natural to work in pictures or CRC. We want to learn not to trust the
          pictures.

          I have often, over the past few years, wondered whether Kent is
          particularly low on the scale of people who think and communicate in
          diagram-type pictures. (He uses metaphoric pictures quite often.) I know
          that I used to use diagrams much more than I do now, partly because I've
          learned to use code better for that purpose, partly from habit. Still, a
          couple of boxes and arrows can communicate a lot.

          So an XP team might want to push in the direction of communicating more
          with code and less with modeling, and they should certainly learn to let
          the code direct the design. But I'd not worry if early on folks did some
          modeling. Deal with it as it happens, I guess.

          You're doing fine, keep doing, that's my advice.

          Ron Jeffries
          www.XProgramming.com
          Do only what is necessary. Keep only what you need.
        • Ron Jeffries
          ... I don t know if he uses them or not. For me, the whiteboard works better, and it can be left in view all through the iteration. Ron Jeffries
          Message 4 of 27 , Mar 2, 2003
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            On Sunday, March 2, 2003, at 4:04:41 AM, Nick Robinson wrote:

            >> I don't use task cards any more, ever. The team might want to use some
            >> cards to write down notes about things they think need to be done. For
            >> anything that can be done in an evening, I'm not seeing why I'd need task
            >> cards.
            >>
            >> Frankly I wish I had never written about them.

            > But Kent mentions them as a key part of iteration planning, or has it moved
            > on much more since he wrote the book?

            I don't know if he uses them or not. For me, the whiteboard works better,
            and it can be left in view all through the iteration.

            Ron Jeffries
            www.XProgramming.com
            The work teaches us. -- Richard Gabriel
          • Kiel Hodges <kielhodges@mindspring.com>
            ... But perhaps it ... and when we ... to speak of, ... to trust the ... communicate in ... often.) I know ... because I ve ... Still, a ... communicating more
            Message 5 of 27 , Mar 2, 2003
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              --- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com, Ron Jeffries
              <ronjeffries@a...> wrote:
              >
              > I'd not say "failed". I'd save that for when they stone you.
              But perhaps it
              > wasn't ideal. We can't reach instantly from where we are to XP,
              and when we
              > have a modeling vocabulary to share ideas in, and no code base
              to speak of,
              > it's natural to work in pictures or CRC. We want to learn not
              to trust the
              > pictures.
              >
              > I have often, over the past few years, wondered whether Kent is
              > particularly low on the scale of people who think and
              communicate in
              > diagram-type pictures. (He uses metaphoric pictures quite
              often.) I know
              > that I used to use diagrams much more than I do now, partly
              because I've
              > learned to use code better for that purpose, partly from habit.
              Still, a
              > couple of boxes and arrows can communicate a lot.
              >
              > So an XP team might want to push in the direction of
              communicating more
              > with code and less with modeling, and they should certainly
              learn to let
              > the code direct the design. But I'd not worry if early on folks
              did some
              > modeling. Deal with it as it happens, I guess.
              >
              > You're doing fine, keep doing, that's my advice.

              Nick, if anything, just try to get people to /invest/ less in
              diagrams. Encourage them to just /scribble/ them on a whiteboard
              or sheet of paper and not put them into any sort of permanent
              repository. Be alert to situations where a previously blessed
              design is holding the code back inappropriately.

              Also, encourage people to do any diagrams only in the context of
              stories. Discourage philosophical discussions about class
              diagrams that aren't anchored in the context of specific user
              defined functionality.

              Personally, I'm pretty anchored in code, but I still find it
              useful to draw some pictures to communicate with others. On my
              last team, we occasionally drew some diagrams on the whiteboard
              and left them for the duration of an entire iteration. Of course,
              when we changed the design in the course of the iteration, we
              promptly erased any invalidated diagram.

              Kiel Hodges
              SelfSo Software
            • Kiel Hodges <kielhodges@mindspring.com>
              ... to use some ... done. For ... I d need task ... or has it moved ... works better, ... We began a project a couple of years ago using cards. After coming
              Message 6 of 27 , Mar 2, 2003
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                --- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com, Ron Jeffries
                <ronjeffries@a...> wrote:
                > On Sunday, March 2, 2003, at 4:04:41 AM, Nick Robinson wrote:
                >
                > >> I don't use task cards any more, ever. The team might want
                to use some
                > >> cards to write down notes about things they think need to be
                done. For
                > >> anything that can be done in an evening, I'm not seeing why
                I'd need task
                > >> cards.
                > >>
                > >> Frankly I wish I had never written about them.
                >
                > > But Kent mentions them as a key part of iteration planning,
                or has it moved
                > > on much more since he wrote the book?
                >
                > I don't know if he uses them or not. For me, the whiteboard
                works better,
                > and it can be left in view all through the iteration.

                We began a project a couple of years ago using cards. After
                coming far too close to the end of an iteration with a lot of
                complete tasks and no complete stories, we made our first process
                adjustments.

                The most visible (pun intended) was replacing cards with an
                "information radiating" whiteboard. We selected one of many
                whiteboards based on its location and put tape on it form a grid
                of many lines. We listed each story followed by its tasks with a
                box at the end of the line to show its status and who had the
                task.

                With the whiteboard, anyone in the company could tell at a glance
                where the iteration was. More to the point, it was hard not to
                notice when things were not coming together.

                Kiel Hodges
                SelfSo Software
              • Nick Robinson
                ... Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more http://taxes.yahoo.com/
                Message 7 of 27 , Mar 2, 2003
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                  > -----Original Message-----
                  > From: Ron Jeffries [mailto:ronjeffries@...]
                  > Sent: 02 March 2003 11:24
                  > To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
                  > Subject: Re: [XP] If you have time, could you comment on this...
                  >
                  >
                  > On Sunday, March 2, 2003, at 4:04:41 AM, Nick Robinson wrote:
                  >
                  > >> Well, maybe I'm not understanding you. To me, one essential
                  > part of a user
                  > >> story is the test. In a very real sense, there /is/ no user story until
                  > >> there is a test. But I may be getting ahead of your story: the specific
                  > >> acceptance tests could start to take shape (and IMO should) in the next
                  > >> step:
                  > >>
                  >
                  > > hhmmm...I think I read somewhere that the customer would work
                  > on the tests
                  > > for the stories but they wouldnt be produced at the same time of the
                  > > stories? I doubt you have missed the point here...
                  >
                  > Certainly they need not be produced. But a wise and experienced customer
                  > probably has "how will I test that?" in mind when writing each story. And
                  > of course CATs are among the most frequently missed XP practices. So if I
                  > were to practice writing stories with folks, I'd put that notion in early.
                  >
                  > When discussing stories in planning, "How will we test this?"
                  > again becomes
                  > a great question to focus attention on making things concrete.

                  I can see that now actually. In the last workshop testing wasnt even
                  mentioned...a fundamental flaw I think.

                  >
                  > Ron Jeffries
                  > www.XProgramming.com
                  > Sigs are like I Ching or Tarot. They don't mean anything,
                  > but sometimes if you think about them you'll get a useful idea.
                  >
                  >
                  > To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
                  >
                  > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                  > extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
                  >
                  > ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.com
                  >
                  > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                  >

                  __________________________________________________
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                  Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more
                  http://taxes.yahoo.com/
                • Nick Robinson
                  ... Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more http://taxes.yahoo.com/
                  Message 8 of 27 , Mar 2, 2003
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                    > -----Original Message-----
                    > From: Ron Jeffries [mailto:ronjeffries@...]
                    > Sent: 02 March 2003 11:36
                    > To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
                    > Subject: Re: [XP] If you have time, could you comment on this...
                    >
                    >
                    > On Sunday, March 2, 2003, at 4:04:41 AM, Nick Robinson wrote:
                    >
                    > >> >> > 4. Oh yes, three others will do some domain modelling and the
                    > >> >> other pair who
                    > >> >> > are modelling will get together with them before the next
                    > workshop to
                    > >> >> > normalize their ideas.
                    > >> >>
                    > >> >> I don't recall this being a recommended XP step. And I'd be thinking
                    > >> >> "together".
                    > >>
                    > >> > Ok I agree actually.
                    > >>
                    > >> I really think this might be a fairly major bug in the exercise. On
                    > >> something as small as this, I might allow ten minutes of
                    > "domain modeling"
                    > >> discussion during planning, with some CRC cards. These folks may spend
                    > >> hours. An XP team, especially in a small exercise like this,
                    > would quickly
                    > >> move to code and let the modeling sort out with the aid of refactoring.
                    > >>
                    > >> But I'm just guessing -- I wasn't there to see what happened.
                    > I'd be alert
                    > >> next time for signs of too much commitment to the design. I
                    > might well say
                    > >> "Let's set this aside now, and start with simple code and
                    > >> refactoring. When
                    > >> we're done doing in in the XP way, let's compare what we come
                    > up with to
                    > >> these modeling ideas."
                    > >>
                    >
                    > > Admittedly when the workshop had ended and all types of
                    > modelling was being
                    > > banded about as people left, I felt that aspect had failed. I
                    > really didnt
                    > > want to do too much modelling at all. hhhmmmm.....I got an
                    > uneasy feeling
                    > > then and I get an even bigger one now.
                    >
                    > I'd not say "failed". I'd save that for when they stone you. But
                    > perhaps it
                    > wasn't ideal. We can't reach instantly from where we are to XP,
                    > and when we
                    > have a modeling vocabulary to share ideas in, and no code base to
                    > speak of,
                    > it's natural to work in pictures or CRC. We want to learn not to trust the
                    > pictures.
                    >

                    I would really like to introduce CRC to the group, because while its a
                    design process, I think over time people will realise that design took
                    place, but we didnt produce the vanilla diagrams expected of other
                    processes. I think when people start to practice a methodology, there
                    aspects that one doesnt "dig". You have to carry on though with the hope
                    that at sometime the penny will drop. Here I am talking more of the BDUF
                    methods btw. I get the feeling that some people produce a certain diagram
                    because they feel they ought too. I was forced to produce a wad of models
                    for management at my last clients, and though I had been reading about agile
                    methods, I still felt like I should create them. A change to the system
                    occured and I was asked to update the models. IT MUST BE DONE I was told.
                    I decided not to do it. Six months later nobody came to me and said "hey
                    Nick, you know model such and such is out of date?". That was my epiphany.

                    CRC helps people think of classes and objects from a different perspective
                    too - one thats not data centric which I like.

                    > I have often, over the past few years, wondered whether Kent is
                    > particularly low on the scale of people who think and communicate in
                    > diagram-type pictures. (He uses metaphoric pictures quite often.) I know
                    > that I used to use diagrams much more than I do now, partly because I've
                    > learned to use code better for that purpose, partly from habit. Still, a
                    > couple of boxes and arrows can communicate a lot.

                    I dont know how you guys work, but I am thinking that there are different
                    contexts to which this is possible. If you run your own shop, then you have
                    the complete dictum as to what will and will not be produced. When
                    consulting at a client that hasnt moved over to XP or agile concepts, there
                    is that expectation that such things should be produced.

                    >
                    > So an XP team might want to push in the direction of communicating more
                    > with code and less with modeling, and they should certainly learn to let
                    > the code direct the design. But I'd not worry if early on folks did some
                    > modeling. Deal with it as it happens, I guess.

                    I think one of the negative side effects of being consumed by BDUF methods,
                    is that one has a polarized view of the code. Its the end product, its what
                    gets created by doing all of the modelling. I have heard people talk as if
                    the code was just the end product, and the core of its production is in the
                    models and effort that went into the design - not the code cutting. Behind
                    the meanings of those statements is the insidious brainwashing that makes us
                    feel that writing code is not designing. This was one such enlightenment I
                    felt when I found XP.

                    >
                    > You're doing fine, keep doing, that's my advice.
                    >

                    8-)

                    > Ron Jeffries
                    > www.XProgramming.com
                    > Do only what is necessary. Keep only what you need.
                    >
                    >
                    > To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
                    >
                    > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                    > extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
                    >
                    > ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.com
                    >
                    > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                    >

                    __________________________________________________
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                  • Nick Robinson
                    ... Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more http://taxes.yahoo.com/
                    Message 9 of 27 , Mar 2, 2003
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                      > -----Original Message-----
                      > From: Ron Jeffries [mailto:ronjeffries@...]
                      > Sent: 02 March 2003 11:41
                      > To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
                      > Subject: Re: [XP] If you have time, could you comment on this...
                      >
                      >
                      > On Sunday, March 2, 2003, at 4:04:41 AM, Nick Robinson wrote:
                      >
                      > >> I don't use task cards any more, ever. The team might want to use some
                      > >> cards to write down notes about things they think need to be done. For
                      > >> anything that can be done in an evening, I'm not seeing why
                      > I'd need task
                      > >> cards.
                      > >>
                      > >> Frankly I wish I had never written about them.
                      >
                      > > But Kent mentions them as a key part of iteration planning, or
                      > has it moved
                      > > on much more since he wrote the book?
                      >
                      > I don't know if he uses them or not. For me, the whiteboard works better,
                      > and it can be left in view all through the iteration.
                      >

                      I guess that this is one of the "customizations" you can do once you are
                      confident with all the principles. I can probably see why you would go that
                      route, but for me I guess its best to stick with the task cards certainly
                      during this learning phase. I dont want to confuse the others either.

                      > Ron Jeffries
                      > www.XProgramming.com
                      > The work teaches us. -- Richard Gabriel
                      >
                      >
                      > To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
                      >
                      > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                      > extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
                      >
                      > ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.com
                      >
                      > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                      >

                      __________________________________________________
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                      Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more
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                    • Ron Jeffries
                      ... Of course you should do as you see fit. When I teach XP Immersion classes with Bob Martin, there are no task cards. When Kent used to teach them with Bob
                      Message 10 of 27 , Mar 2, 2003
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                        On Sunday, March 2, 2003, at 12:39:01 PM, Nick Robinson wrote:

                        >> I don't know if he uses them or not. For me, the whiteboard works better,
                        >> and it can be left in view all through the iteration.
                        >>

                        > I guess that this is one of the "customizations" you can do once you are
                        > confident with all the principles. I can probably see why you would go that
                        > route, but for me I guess its best to stick with the task cards certainly
                        > during this learning phase. I dont want to confuse the others either.

                        Of course you should do as you see fit. When I teach XP Immersion classes
                        with Bob Martin, there are no task cards. When Kent used to teach them with
                        Bob and me, there were no task cards, now that I think of it.

                        In fact, I just looked briefly into Planning Extreme Programming. I didn't
                        find task cards in the index. Under Iteration Planning: I found "Write the
                        tasks on the whiteboard."

                        What part of Kent's writings are you referring to?

                        Ron Jeffries
                        www.XProgramming.com
                        For me, XP ain't out there, it's in here. -- Bill Caputo
                      • Ron Jeffries
                        ... Sure. But documentation that is externally required is a story, gets planned and produced just like software. Not as a side effect: at least as measurable
                        Message 11 of 27 , Mar 2, 2003
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                          On Sunday, March 2, 2003, at 12:38:59 PM, Nick Robinson wrote:

                          >> I have often, over the past few years, wondered whether Kent is
                          >> particularly low on the scale of people who think and communicate in
                          >> diagram-type pictures. (He uses metaphoric pictures quite often.) I know
                          >> that I used to use diagrams much more than I do now, partly because I've
                          >> learned to use code better for that purpose, partly from habit. Still, a
                          >> couple of boxes and arrows can communicate a lot.

                          > I dont know how you guys work, but I am thinking that there are different
                          > contexts to which this is possible. If you run your own shop, then you have
                          > the complete dictum as to what will and will not be produced. When
                          > consulting at a client that hasnt moved over to XP or agile concepts, there
                          > is that expectation that such things should be produced.

                          Sure. But documentation that is externally required is a story, gets
                          planned and produced just like software. Not as a side effect: at least as
                          measurable tasks (on the whiteboard ;->) but preferably as separate stories
                          with costs.

                          Ron Jeffries
                          www.XProgramming.com
                          Comments lie. Code doesn't.
                        • Nick Robinson
                          ... Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more http://taxes.yahoo.com/
                          Message 12 of 27 , Mar 2, 2003
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                            > -----Original Message-----
                            > From: Kiel Hodges <kielhodges@...>
                            > [mailto:kielhodges@...]
                            > Sent: 02 March 2003 15:34
                            > To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
                            > Subject: Re: [XP] If you have time, could you comment on this...
                            >
                            >
                            > --- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com, Ron Jeffries
                            > <ronjeffries@a...> wrote:
                            > >
                            > > I'd not say "failed". I'd save that for when they stone you.
                            > But perhaps it
                            > > wasn't ideal. We can't reach instantly from where we are to XP,
                            > and when we
                            > > have a modeling vocabulary to share ideas in, and no code base
                            > to speak of,
                            > > it's natural to work in pictures or CRC. We want to learn not
                            > to trust the
                            > > pictures.
                            > >
                            > > I have often, over the past few years, wondered whether Kent is
                            > > particularly low on the scale of people who think and
                            > communicate in
                            > > diagram-type pictures. (He uses metaphoric pictures quite
                            > often.) I know
                            > > that I used to use diagrams much more than I do now, partly
                            > because I've
                            > > learned to use code better for that purpose, partly from habit.
                            > Still, a
                            > > couple of boxes and arrows can communicate a lot.
                            > >
                            > > So an XP team might want to push in the direction of
                            > communicating more
                            > > with code and less with modeling, and they should certainly
                            > learn to let
                            > > the code direct the design. But I'd not worry if early on folks
                            > did some
                            > > modeling. Deal with it as it happens, I guess.
                            > >
                            > > You're doing fine, keep doing, that's my advice.
                            >
                            > Nick, if anything, just try to get people to /invest/ less in
                            > diagrams. Encourage them to just /scribble/ them on a whiteboard
                            > or sheet of paper and not put them into any sort of permanent
                            > repository. Be alert to situations where a previously blessed
                            > design is holding the code back inappropriately.
                            >
                            > Also, encourage people to do any diagrams only in the context of
                            > stories. Discourage philosophical discussions about class
                            > diagrams that aren't anchored in the context of specific user
                            > defined functionality.
                            >
                            This is something I wish to address at the next workshop. The group were
                            keen to move towards code cutting, and normally I would be ok with that.
                            However I feel that the planning aspect is an essential - certainly one
                            should grasp what goes on in planning, and also I need to address the
                            modelling issue. I like the idea of using just a whiteboard to gather
                            ideas, but not going away producing wads of models.

                            > Personally, I'm pretty anchored in code, but I still find it
                            > useful to draw some pictures to communicate with others. On my
                            > last team, we occasionally drew some diagrams on the whiteboard
                            > and left them for the duration of an entire iteration. Of course,
                            > when we changed the design in the course of the iteration, we
                            > promptly erased any invalidated diagram.
                            >
                            > Kiel Hodges
                            > SelfSo Software
                            >
                            >
                            > To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
                            >
                            > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                            > extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
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                          • Nick Robinson
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                            Message 13 of 27 , Mar 2, 2003
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                              > -----Original Message-----
                              > From: Kiel Hodges <kielhodges@...>
                              > [mailto:kielhodges@...]
                              > Sent: 02 March 2003 15:51
                              > To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
                              > Subject: Re: [XP] If you have time, could you comment on this...
                              >
                              >
                              > --- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com, Ron Jeffries
                              > <ronjeffries@a...> wrote:
                              > > On Sunday, March 2, 2003, at 4:04:41 AM, Nick Robinson wrote:
                              > >
                              > > >> I don't use task cards any more, ever. The team might want
                              > to use some
                              > > >> cards to write down notes about things they think need to be
                              > done. For
                              > > >> anything that can be done in an evening, I'm not seeing why
                              > I'd need task
                              > > >> cards.
                              > > >>
                              > > >> Frankly I wish I had never written about them.
                              > >
                              > > > But Kent mentions them as a key part of iteration planning,
                              > or has it moved
                              > > > on much more since he wrote the book?
                              > >
                              > > I don't know if he uses them or not. For me, the whiteboard
                              > works better,
                              > > and it can be left in view all through the iteration.
                              >
                              > We began a project a couple of years ago using cards. After
                              > coming far too close to the end of an iteration with a lot of
                              > complete tasks and no complete stories, we made our first process
                              > adjustments.
                              >
                              > The most visible (pun intended) was replacing cards with an
                              > "information radiating" whiteboard. We selected one of many
                              > whiteboards based on its location and put tape on it form a grid
                              > of many lines. We listed each story followed by its tasks with a
                              > box at the end of the line to show its status and who had the
                              > task.
                              >
                              > With the whiteboard, anyone in the company could tell at a glance
                              > where the iteration was. More to the point, it was hard not to
                              > notice when things were not coming together.
                              >

                              Interesting...I like that idea. Keeping the status visible to all
                              throughout the iteration. Recently however, a manager asked us why the
                              whiteboard still had the same diagram on it from the week before. He asked
                              strongly "shouldnt this be in a document somewhere if its that
                              important?"....eh hum.

                              > Kiel Hodges
                              > SelfSo Software
                              >
                              >
                              > To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
                              >
                              > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                              > extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
                              >
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                            • Ron Jeffries
                              ... Right now, this is so important that we want it in front of us. A week from now we may want something else. or ... Actually no one has been looking at
                              Message 14 of 27 , Mar 2, 2003
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                                On Sunday, March 2, 2003, at 3:04:44 PM, Nick Robinson wrote:

                                > Interesting...I like that idea. Keeping the status visible to all
                                > throughout the iteration. Recently however, a manager asked us why the
                                > whiteboard still had the same diagram on it from the week before. He asked
                                > strongly "shouldnt this be in a document somewhere if its that
                                > important?"....eh hum.

                                "Right now, this is so important that we want it in front of us. A week
                                from now we may want something else."

                                or ...

                                "Actually no one has been looking at it. We just haven't needed the
                                whiteboard space."

                                or something like that.

                                And of course, this is a great chance to get the manager to spring for a
                                digital camera for the group, and a copy of "Whiteboard Photo"
                                (http://www.websterboards.com/products/wbp.html). (Formerly www.pixid.com )
                                I have tried the program and it works as advertised. I am not associated
                                with the company in any way, except that I met the brother of the founder
                                at a Consultants' Retreat.

                                "That way, boss, we can keep the document files completely up to date on
                                every change, without wasting your time and money with slow, expensive
                                drawing tools."

                                Ron Jeffries
                                www.XProgramming.com
                                Computers are useless. They can only give you answers. -- Picasso
                              • Nick Robinson
                                ... Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more http://taxes.yahoo.com/
                                Message 15 of 27 , Mar 2, 2003
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                                  > -----Original Message-----
                                  > From: Ron Jeffries [mailto:ronjeffries@...]
                                  > Sent: 02 March 2003 19:50
                                  > To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
                                  > Subject: Re: [XP] If you have time, could you comment on this...
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > On Sunday, March 2, 2003, at 12:39:01 PM, Nick Robinson wrote:
                                  >
                                  > >> I don't know if he uses them or not. For me, the whiteboard
                                  > works better,
                                  > >> and it can be left in view all through the iteration.
                                  > >>
                                  >
                                  > > I guess that this is one of the "customizations" you can do once you are
                                  > > confident with all the principles. I can probably see why you
                                  > would go that
                                  > > route, but for me I guess its best to stick with the task cards
                                  > certainly
                                  > > during this learning phase. I dont want to confuse the others either.
                                  >
                                  > Of course you should do as you see fit. When I teach XP Immersion classes
                                  > with Bob Martin, there are no task cards. When Kent used to teach
                                  > them with
                                  > Bob and me, there were no task cards, now that I think of it.
                                  >
                                  > In fact, I just looked briefly into Planning Extreme Programming. I didn't
                                  > find task cards in the index. Under Iteration Planning: I found "Write the
                                  > tasks on the whiteboard."
                                  >
                                  > What part of Kent's writings are you referring to?

                                  The seminal Extreme Programming Explained. Page 92, mentioned in the
                                  Iteration Planning section. I can see why the whiteboard helps, though what
                                  happens if someone inadvertently cleanses the whiteboard, like an
                                  over-zealous cleaning lady? ;-)

                                  >
                                  > Ron Jeffries
                                  > www.XProgramming.com
                                  > For me, XP ain't out there, it's in here. -- Bill Caputo
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
                                  >
                                  > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                                  > extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
                                  >
                                  > ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.com
                                  >
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                                  >

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                                • Nick Robinson
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                                  Message 16 of 27 , Mar 2, 2003
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                                    > -----Original Message-----
                                    > From: Ron Jeffries [mailto:ronjeffries@...]
                                    > Sent: 02 March 2003 19:52
                                    > To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
                                    > Subject: Re: [XP] If you have time, could you comment on this...
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > On Sunday, March 2, 2003, at 12:38:59 PM, Nick Robinson wrote:
                                    >
                                    > >> I have often, over the past few years, wondered whether Kent is
                                    > >> particularly low on the scale of people who think and communicate in
                                    > >> diagram-type pictures. (He uses metaphoric pictures quite
                                    > often.) I know
                                    > >> that I used to use diagrams much more than I do now, partly
                                    > because I've
                                    > >> learned to use code better for that purpose, partly from
                                    > habit. Still, a
                                    > >> couple of boxes and arrows can communicate a lot.
                                    >
                                    > > I dont know how you guys work, but I am thinking that there are
                                    > different
                                    > > contexts to which this is possible. If you run your own shop,
                                    > then you have
                                    > > the complete dictum as to what will and will not be produced. When
                                    > > consulting at a client that hasnt moved over to XP or agile
                                    > concepts, there
                                    > > is that expectation that such things should be produced.
                                    >
                                    > Sure. But documentation that is externally required is a story, gets
                                    > planned and produced just like software. Not as a side effect: at least as
                                    > measurable tasks (on the whiteboard ;->) but preferably as
                                    > separate stories
                                    > with costs.
                                    >

                                    8-) I see....and yes they arent side-effects, where as in the other
                                    situation mentioned some of the diagrams are definitely side effects. The
                                    value they offer is always subjective.

                                    > Ron Jeffries
                                    > www.XProgramming.com
                                    > Comments lie. Code doesn't.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
                                    >
                                    > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                                    > extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
                                    >
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                                    >
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                                    >

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                                  • Nick Robinson
                                    ... Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more http://taxes.yahoo.com/
                                    Message 17 of 27 , Mar 2, 2003
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                                      > -----Original Message-----
                                      > From: Ron Jeffries [mailto:ronjeffries@...]
                                      > Sent: 02 March 2003 20:18
                                      > To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
                                      > Subject: Re: [XP] If you have time, could you comment on this...
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > On Sunday, March 2, 2003, at 3:04:44 PM, Nick Robinson wrote:
                                      >
                                      > > Interesting...I like that idea. Keeping the status visible to all
                                      > > throughout the iteration. Recently however, a manager asked us why the
                                      > > whiteboard still had the same diagram on it from the week
                                      > before. He asked
                                      > > strongly "shouldnt this be in a document somewhere if its that
                                      > > important?"....eh hum.
                                      >
                                      > "Right now, this is so important that we want it in front of us. A week
                                      > from now we may want something else."
                                      >
                                      > or ...
                                      >
                                      > "Actually no one has been looking at it. We just haven't needed the
                                      > whiteboard space."
                                      >
                                      > or something like that.
                                      >
                                      > And of course, this is a great chance to get the manager to spring for a
                                      > digital camera for the group, and a copy of "Whiteboard Photo"
                                      > (http://www.websterboards.com/products/wbp.html). (Formerly
                                      > www.pixid.com )
                                      > I have tried the program and it works as advertised. I am not associated
                                      > with the company in any way, except that I met the brother of the founder
                                      > at a Consultants' Retreat.
                                      >
                                      > "That way, boss, we can keep the document files completely up to date on
                                      > every change, without wasting your time and money with slow, expensive
                                      > drawing tools."
                                      >

                                      ;-) We have a camera actually, and all the boards are in souresafe. I will
                                      take a look at the product you recommend. At the moment we have so much
                                      whiteboard, anyone would think we secretly had shares in Whiteboard
                                      Corp....thats one reason for not rubbing the damned thing off.

                                      > Ron Jeffries
                                      > www.XProgramming.com
                                      > Computers are useless. They can only give you answers. -- Picasso
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
                                      >
                                      > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                                      > extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
                                      >
                                      > ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.com
                                      >
                                      > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                      >

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                                    • George Dinwiddie
                                      ... I ll second the recommendation for Whiteboard Photo. I got it on Ron s recommendation (with my own $), and it really works. Download the trial version
                                      Message 18 of 27 , Mar 2, 2003
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                                        Nick Robinson wrote:
                                        >>From: Ron Jeffries [mailto:ronjeffries@...]
                                        >>And of course, this is a great chance to get the manager to spring for a
                                        >>digital camera for the group, and a copy of "Whiteboard Photo"
                                        >>(http://www.websterboards.com/products/wbp.html). (Formerly
                                        >>www.pixid.com )
                                        >>I have tried the program and it works as advertised. I am not associated
                                        >>with the company in any way, except that I met the brother of the founder
                                        >>at a Consultants' Retreat.
                                        >>
                                        >>"That way, boss, we can keep the document files completely up to date on
                                        >>every change, without wasting your time and money with slow, expensive
                                        >>drawing tools."
                                        >>
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > ;-) We have a camera actually, and all the boards are in souresafe. I will
                                        > take a look at the product you recommend. At the moment we have so much
                                        > whiteboard, anyone would think we secretly had shares in Whiteboard
                                        > Corp....thats one reason for not rubbing the damned thing off.

                                        I'll second the recommendation for "Whiteboard Photo." I got it on
                                        Ron's recommendation (with my own $), and it really works. Download the
                                        trial version (http://www.websterboards.com/products/wbp_trial_ver.html)
                                        and check it out for yourself. I don't know if they still offer it, but
                                        when I got it, the trial version had an offer for a discount in the
                                        watermark it put on the output.

                                        - George

                                        --
                                        -------------------------
                                        George Dinwiddie
                                        agile programmer for hire
                                        Baltimore/Washington area
                                        gdinwiddie@...
                                        -------------------------
                                      • William Pietri
                                        ... Then it will be a fine opportunity to demonstrate that the whiteboard works for you, rather then the other way around. William -- brains for sale:
                                        Message 19 of 27 , Mar 3, 2003
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                                          On Sun, 2003-03-02 at 12:37, Nick Robinson wrote:
                                          >
                                          > The seminal Extreme Programming Explained. Page 92, mentioned in the
                                          > Iteration Planning section. I can see why the whiteboard helps, though what
                                          > happens if someone inadvertently cleanses the whiteboard, like an
                                          > over-zealous cleaning lady? ;-)

                                          Then it will be a fine opportunity to demonstrate that the whiteboard
                                          works for you, rather then the other way around.


                                          William


                                          --
                                          brains for sale: http://scissor.com/
                                        • Nick Robinson
                                          I was thinking of this when I woke up and another question arose...-----Original Message----- From: Ron Jeffries [mailto:ronjeffries@acm.org] Sent: 01
                                          Message 20 of 27 , Mar 3, 2003
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                                            I was thinking of this when I woke up and another question arose...

                                            > -----Original Message-----
                                            > From: Ron Jeffries [mailto:ronjeffries@...]
                                            > Sent: 01 March 2003 11:29
                                            > To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
                                            > Subject: Re: [XP] If you have time, could you comment on this...
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > On Saturday, March 1, 2003, at 5:20:57 AM, Nick Robinson wrote:

                                            <<CUT>>

                                            > > One other question. In the first planning phase, were the customer sits
                                            > > down with the team to walk through the stories, would the
                                            > development team
                                            > > break the stories into task cards in the same meeting?
                                            >
                                            > I don't use task cards any more, ever. The team might want to use some
                                            > cards to write down notes about things they think need to be done. For
                                            > anything that can be done in an evening, I'm not seeing why I'd need task
                                            > cards.
                                            >
                                            > Frankly I wish I had never written about them.
                                            >

                                            One question. In the above message you are basically saying if you can
                                            write the task in an evenings work then why bother putting it onto a task
                                            card - correct me if I misunderstood, as it will nullify the rest of
                                            this...Arent task cards meant to be chunks of work of a couple of days and
                                            no more, and not just an evenings worth?

                                            I am begining to feel that the communication aspect of XP would be the
                                            encompassing safety net, if thats the right term. Because an XP team has
                                            such good communication, and all of the key principles are practised and
                                            practised well, some reasons for creating things become less important?

                                            Thanks,

                                            Nick.

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                                          • Ron Jeffries
                                            ... No. I /never/ use task cards. I would not start a team with task cards. I think task cards were a phase that C3 went through. C3 stopped using them. I ve
                                            Message 21 of 27 , Mar 3, 2003
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                                              On Monday, March 3, 2003, at 3:38:24 AM, Nick Robinson wrote:

                                              > One question. In the above message you are basically saying if you can
                                              > write the task in an evenings work then why bother putting it onto a task
                                              > card - correct me if I misunderstood, as it will nullify the rest of
                                              > this...Arent task cards meant to be chunks of work of a couple of days and
                                              > no more, and not just an evenings worth?

                                              No. I /never/ use task cards. I would not start a team with task cards. I
                                              think task cards were a phase that C3 went through. C3 stopped using them.
                                              I've stopped recommending them, and afaik so has Kent.

                                              That's not to say that I wouldn't write things on a card for myself, or
                                              that other developers could not. That's not the "task card" idea that I'm
                                              talking about. I'm talking about the practice of breaking stories down and
                                              writing up task cards for everything foreseen.

                                              That's not to say that you can't do them. Certainly they are a local
                                              option. The thing is this. If they're to be worth doing, as you allude to,
                                              they must be large. But if they are large, they are almost certainly too
                                              speculative. They lock the team into a set of expectations that will not
                                              want to be met when the time comes.

                                              In short -- they're not agile enough for my taste.

                                              But by all means, try them if you want to, it's not like they're deadly or
                                              anything.

                                              > I am begining to feel that the communication aspect of XP would be the
                                              > encompassing safety net, if thats the right term. Because an XP team has
                                              > such good communication, and all of the key principles are practised and
                                              > practised well, some reasons for creating things become less important?

                                              Yes, communication is certainly a large part of it. And feedback: smaller
                                              tasks provide feedback better. And simplicity: life is simpler without
                                              them.

                                              But by all means, if you don't have a permanent whiteboard or such, make
                                              cards to record the brainstorming. Try using small cards, so you won't
                                              write much on them, perhaps.

                                              Ron Jeffries
                                              www.XProgramming.com
                                              Talent determines how fast you get good, not how good you get. -- Richard Gabriel
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